[15:11] <krabador> i look many really great ideas.... i can't think about next ubuntu theme, is the worse possibile.... i don't focus about right or left buttons, but colors and other things are really bad, i think developers have drinked their brains
[16:26] <darkmatter> there we go. now the only thing that remains is to make buttons to replace the ones I temporarily borrowed from elementary. http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9329/screenshotzxp.png
[16:30] <darkmatter> it's a shame we cant specify controls per window type. I'd love for dialogs like that to use window-close-symbolic
[16:31] <troy_s> darkmatter: Erm you can't define a class for the dialogs?
[16:32] <darkmatter> troy_s: well, kinda, but sub-themeing metacity is even more hackish than gtk
[16:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: Have to say though, that typeface is ... Tangoiffic? LOL.
[16:35] <darkmatter> no. that typeface is architecturally awesome
[16:37] <troy_s> darkmatter: Ok. We will beg to differ on that front. It's a cliched art-decoesque nightmare.
[16:37] <troy_s> darkmatter: Not saying that art-deco can't come back. Just that it really has poor colour at that size.
[16:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: Maybe as the display face? Body copy it needs a better pairing.
[16:40] <darkmatter> no. I just need to patch freetype
[16:41] <darkmatter> troy_s: that font is a classic btw. so don't be insulting the work of richard neutra ;o
[16:41] <troy_s> darkmatter: I am _strictly_ speaking of context.
[16:47] <darkmatter> bah, I'm speaking from "it's the only non-bitmap compact typeface that looks good for me at small sizes and that I can stare at for months at a time without my eyes bleeding." <-- there. context. :P
[16:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: Hey cool. Good to see you haven't lost your teeth dark.
[17:02] <darkmatter> troy_s: never have, hopefully never will ;)
[17:07] <darkmatter> troy_s: but anyway. defining classes for metacity is a royal pain compared to gtk. I would _like_ to be able to set buttons images/colors/text (or lack thereof) based exclusively on dialog type (and matched to the appropriate gtkrc hacks), but it seems metacity is still a bit primative in some of those aspects
[17:11] <troy_s> darkmatter: As an aside, I actually think it is a rather interesting face when it's bolded - the time date for example. Is that a mock?
[17:11] <troy_s> darkmatter: Because I can't say I have ever been able to see the time / date like that.
[17:13] <darkmatter> config/properties dialogs I'd like to blend the deco with the gtk, no menu button, and just a window-close-symbolic styled close button plus title. dialogs that require interaction just have a window-close-symbolic (like the logout/shutdown dialogs. they shall be black when the mod gtkrc is done, I'd also like to kill the title on them),
[17:13] <darkmatter> troy_s: nope. that's a custom format string in gconf
[17:14] <troy_s> darkmatter: Oh cool. So you stuff a newline in there?
[17:14] <darkmatter> yup
[17:14] <troy_s> darkmatter: Interesting.
[17:16] <darkmatter> troy_s: I have the format string set to: <span size="larger">%l:%M</span> <span size="smaller" color="#AABDAA">%p</span>%n<span size="smaller" color="#AABDAA">%B %e</span> and the format itself to custom. you can do even crazier stuff
[17:16] <troy_s> darkmatter: So you can control the weight loosely too?
[17:19] <darkmatter> troy_s: yup. and spacing. you just need to experiment a bit. it's kinda hit/miss. but by way of experimentation to see just how flexible it was, I had tried this: http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3408/screenshotni.png
[17:20] <troy_s> darkmatter: That stacking of the Date / time is very interesting. It's an interesting look - especially considering the era of high density screens.
[17:20] <darkmatter> yup
[17:21] <troy_s> darkmatter: _that_ is an asstastic face in that corner. It's like an eaglebold wannabe. What is that?
[17:21] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is that the same???
[17:21] <troy_s> darkmatter: Sheet. It's the same.
[17:21] <troy_s> darkmatter: Looks quite a bit different with more text in it.
[17:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: And wtf is up with the kerning pair on that W e.
[17:22] <darkmatter> troy_s: yes. it's neutra text
[17:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: I guess that's the colour symptom noted above. Wow. Looks completely strange - is that your hinting level foobaring it possibly?
[17:22] <troy_s> darkmatter: You set to slight?
[17:23] <darkmatter> troy_s: the kerning issue is related to the dpi/pt/hinting I'm using. unfortunately :/
[17:23] <troy_s> darkmatter: What hinting ist hat?
[17:23] <darkmatter> troy_s: I'd have it at slight. but I haven't installed the patched freetype yet, so it's at none
[17:26] <darkmatter> and I _still_ use monaco as my monospace. awesome font
[17:30] <darkmatter> metacity really needs simplified drawing operations. the non-classed version of the theme I'm working on is 457 lines. I fear the length of the revised version since I'll have to execute drawing ops on a per class basis, so ~1000 lines would be a fair guess
[17:31] <troy_s> darkmatter: It heads into a side note. HTML5 / CSS is wonderful but proponents fail to address the need of the audience in question - artists and designers.
[17:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: Flash got a foothold because the design toolset was strictly aimed at intermediate level artists and designers with regards to technical aptitude.
[17:32] <darkmatter> yeah
[17:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: As a result, the toolset (which is quite functional) allowed for extremely rapid uptake (not as easy as say a hobby grade application but faster than say, Nuke, Maya, or even Photoshop)
[17:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: It is a factor that we fail to see in Free Software when it comes to who _should_ the audience be for a given piece of software / library. It is one thing to offer the functionality, it is another to get it into the hands of the people that can harness it.
[17:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: If the CSS idea ever makes it to full fruition in GNOME, it is quite a brilliant move.
[17:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: For that very reason.
[17:34] <darkmatter> troy_s: indeed
[17:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: That said, to be truly fruitful, there needs to be a software set of visual design tools. Designed for the same audience that uses tools such as Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Take those interface patterns and apply it to that new tool.
[17:35] <troy_s> darkmatter: The net sum result will yield near immediate benefits.
[17:36] <thorwil> not enough people understand the value of Flash as an authoring tool
[17:38]  * thorwil thinks low x-height rather speaks against Neutra as screen font
[17:38] <darkmatter> cool. I can define a style for all window types, but I'll have to define a complete sub-theme for each style_set in the .xml. looks like the 1000 line estimate falls short by about 200 lines of code ;D
[17:39] <thorwil> darkmatter: can't you just write a window manager in 1200 lines instead? ;)
[17:40] <darkmatter> thorwil: that would depend on the individual. it 'works for me' as they say. but give me ten years, I'll be switching to 16 point droid sans :P
[17:41] <troy_s> thorwil: Agree on Flash. It's a craptastic format and a craptastic application in many regards, but for the given audience (namely independent 'all-in-one' types) it serves as an invaluable asset.
[17:42] <darkmatter> thorwil: lol. probably, and with all the needed themeing built in instead of epic amounts of crap to accomplish basic goals. that probably explains why no one has done a per-window-type theme yet
[17:43] <thorwil> troy_s: i worked with versions 4 and 5. scripting in 4 sucked, but I wouldn't call 5 craptastic. the movie-in-movie concept is beautiful
[17:43] <troy_s> thorwil: There are serious shortcomings (like scripting - but the bulk of the audience likely finds it 'good' as they aren't coder types) but it _really_ nails the market it aims at.
[17:44] <troy_s> thorwil: I dare say that _that_ is the reason Flash is everywhere - the people laying out the sites can create stuff faster than in CSS / HTML. Some might not even know CSS / HTML.
[17:44] <troy_s> thorwil: Which is a serious argument for _our_ community to step up and deliver solid design tools for those grades of audiences.
[17:45] <troy_s> thorwil: Namely the hobbyist 'all in oner'. There is room for a killer-app among CSS / HTML5 creation. Dare I say we may see one from Apple soon.
[17:45] <troy_s> thorwil: And watch the migration flow.
[17:45] <thorwil> troy_s: recently i wondered if one could start with Pharo Smalltalk and turn it into a viable authoring tool. current state has too many rough edges, at least visually
[17:45] <troy_s> thorwil: Of course, buried under the skin will be some more of that patented lock in with some hidden functionality buried inside.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: RAD CSS / HTML5. There's a deal breaker right there.
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: Borrowing from the toolset that audience uses already (hello Flash - looking at you)
[17:46] <troy_s> thorwil: By 'borrowing' I mean obviously to use the same layouts (or have a layout by default) that supports the exact same mental model they have built up.
[17:48] <thorwil> troy_s: funny thing is, i would want to avoid one of the effects Flash has. saw it with my fellow students 5+ years ago. where i created html/css and used the entire screen, they would go and throw something together in flash. assuming a 800x600 screen, or something like that. all content in a small box, tiny text
[17:49] <thorwil> not bookmarkable, no separately scalable text, no select/copy-able text and all that
[17:50] <thorwil> bbl
[17:50] <troy_s> amen
[17:55] <darkmatter> troy_s: it would be nice if you could more specific classes in metacity though, as not all apps follow the rules in a sensible way. for example. capplets: they id as normal windows (which they are) but they are _technically_ configuration dialogs, so should follow dialog definitions in the .xml
[17:55] <darkmatter> silliness
[17:56] <darkmatter> plus there's also the third party crap that's about as predictable as a squirrel on a sugar rush
[17:57] <darkmatter> oh well. maybe the client-side decorator will fix that *shrug*
[18:52] <knome> thorwil, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official%20logo/Lucid+/mouse-curvy-tail-2d.png
[18:52] <knome> thorwil, what do you think of that?
[19:02] <thorwil> knome: the tail starts too fat and the curves are slightly off (as in: there's a variation in thickness that shouldn't be there)
[19:03] <knome> thorwil, general appearacne?
[19:03] <thorwil> knome: otherwise that's seems to be a reasonable way to get the mouse into the circle
[19:04] <thorwil> knome: note that this makes it look static, the mouse is not running
[19:04] <knome> yes.
[19:04] <knome> that's true
[19:05] <thorwil> knome: i don't think this can compete with the mouse at the bottom of the logo-type. it might be a reasonable addition/alternative
[19:06] <knome> from what i gather from others, they think the opposite
[19:07] <thorwil> knome: i can't help them, then. with this approach, you run into scaling issues again
[19:07] <darkmatter> knome: cute. also a nice way to do icons in general. I'm a long standing proponent of glyphic representations who is being tormented by being stuck with little blobs of color. lol
[19:08] <darkmatter> I really must make a theme
[19:08] <knome> thorwil, that's true, but even then, the situation is a lot better what we used to have with the exact xfce mouse.
[19:09] <thorwil> knome: combine this with "ubuntu" and place above the mouse-at-bottom variant for a direct comparison at the same scale
[19:09] <thorwil> louder tends to sound better. similar can be had with larger
[19:10] <knome> thorwil, i very well see your point, the this one is more attractive in bigger sizes, imo
[19:11] <darkmatter> I used to have a generic icon for all web browsers when I was playing with metaphors (that made sense). it was 2 pix cornered and had a web spreading out from the upper left corner
[19:11] <knome> thorwil, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official logo/Lucid+/comparison.png
[19:13] <thorwil> knome: no wonder. #6 needs the tail fixed to be similar to #2s tail. mouse could be larger
[19:13] <darkmatter> kill craptasic metaphors. everyone with a computer knows what the web is. what better heuristically neutral metaphor for accessing it than a web? ;D
[19:14] <knome> thorwil, so could be the circle in #7.
[19:14] <knome> thorwil, (bigger)
[19:15] <thorwil> knome: no. would become too heavy and you should not start with the geometry of the original ubuntu logo to then mess it up ;)
[19:17] <thorwil> i mean, as unhappy as i am with the circle, its size is clearly not random
[19:18] <knome> that's true, but regarding to iain, we are free to use any size circle if we want, and if it looks good, then why nor.
[19:18] <knome> *not
[19:20] <thorwil> salad lies in that direction
[19:23] <thorwil> knome: anyway, i think you should eliminate #1 to #4 and maybe also #5
[19:24] <thorwil> i would still run with #6 and not look back
[19:24] <knome> maybe.
[19:28] <knome> we are still pretty much brainstorming.
[19:30] <thorwil> mouse, trap, dirt, cheese, cat, tom an jerry, queak, women jumping unto chairs?
[19:31] <knome> nah
[20:30] <troy_s> knome: Is that for Xub?
[20:45] <vish> huh , probably i'm the only one who thinks thorwil's mouse looks like a sperm
[20:45] <vish> http://www.scienceprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sperm.jpg
[20:46] <vish> especially 1 is nearly like the sperm entry with the tail left outside :s
[20:47] <thorwil> vish: so you are in a reproduction-oriented mindset? ;)
[20:47] <vish> ;p
[20:48] <thorwil> vish: actually that thought occurred to me even before i finished the mouse. but so what? every sperm is sacred!
[20:49] <thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
[20:49] <vish> thorwil: the first image got me thinking like that mainly, > http://legacy.owensboro.kctcs.edu/GCaplan/anat2/notes/ha5lf2902a_a.jpg
[20:49] <vish> looks like xfce in just impregnated Ubuntu ;p
[20:50] <vish> or something else did ;)
[21:24] <knome> troy_s, yeah
[21:25] <troy_s> knome: Why not play with figure ground relationships on an x?
[21:25] <troy_s> knome: What is the context?
[21:25] <knome> troy_s, "the context" ?
[21:25] <knome> :P
[21:25] <knome> we're brainstorming the new xubuntu logo
[21:25] <troy_s> knome: Yes. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Where is it used? What is its purpose?
[21:26] <knome> everywhere?
[21:26] <troy_s> knome: What size?
[21:26] <knome> every
[21:26] <troy_s> knome: Can't use it everywhere. If there is a superlative, there is often the chance for error.
[21:26] <troy_s> knome: We have done that long enough and failed I'd suggest.
[21:26] <troy_s> knome: Miserably.
[21:26] <knome> most of those won't work in small sizes, but that's recognised
[21:26] <troy_s> knome: Who cares about small sizes? Egads.
[21:27] <troy_s> knome: So for an entry image on a webpage?
[21:27] <knome> ... as a logo everywhere the logo is supposed to appear
[21:27] <knome> and where the text is not doable, the image part
[21:28] <troy_s> knome: Context on size? If you are talking something in the 300+ pixel domain, that is likely well ... simplistic?
[21:28] <knome> depends.
[21:30] <troy_s> knome: Depends is better than everywhere. :)
[21:31] <troy_s> knome: Let me be clearer - where is the primary touchpoint for it at this point?
[21:33] <knome> probably all the artwork needed in the distro
[21:33] <knome> and the website
[21:34] <troy_s> knome: So then, do you think that image has enough emotional weight to be a high visibility image on a website?
[21:35] <knome> some of those do, some of them not.
[21:36] <knome> the simplest stuff would work in small sizes, but i'm not sure if the community will adopt those as their "own"
[21:37] <troy_s> knome: Erm... the mouse in a circle.
[21:37] <troy_s> knome: Was what I was speaking of. Apparently I missed a few links. :)
[21:37] <knome> which one of those?
[21:37] <knome> troy_s, http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/Official%20logo/Lucid+/comparison.png
[21:39] <troy_s> knome: Begs playing with figure ground as a guess. Just at least as a starting point.
[21:39] <troy_s> knome: I don't quite get the mouse either... but alas... that's just an old idiot.
[21:39] <knome> troy_s, the xfce logo includes a mouse
[21:39] <troy_s> knome: That's super. I don't really get that. ;)
[21:40] <knome> troy_s, to be exact, the mouse in #3
[21:40] <troy_s> knome: Yes. I have seen it.
[21:40] <knome> since that one is pretty playful at least, the one in #6 would be a bid departure.
[21:40] <knome> the one in #7 is more in the same style imo
[21:42] <troy_s> knome: What is the purpose of it?
[21:42] <troy_s> ;)
[21:43] <knome> of what?
[21:43] <knome> the mouse?
[21:43] <troy_s> knome: The logo.
[21:43] <knome> troy_s, uh...
[21:43] <troy_s> knome: You can make an effortless series of judgement calls that are rooted in deep complexity.
[21:43] <troy_s> knome: Think about it before you answer.
[21:43] <knome> this discussion goes too deep right now :P
[21:44] <troy_s> knome: Not really.
[21:44] <knome> for my brain, yes
[21:44] <troy_s> knome: If you can't answer why one needs a logo, you likely aren't able to arrive at a conclusion that has merit.
[21:44] <troy_s> knome: As in - what is it for? Why? If the answer is some loose thing like 'Look good', there be dragons.
[21:45] <knome> the logo is supposed to be tied with the project/product so that whenever one sees the logo, he thinks of the product.
[21:45] <troy_s> knome: And a spoon would do that.
[21:46] <knome> what i am trying to say is that it's near midnight here
[21:46] <troy_s> knome: In fact, using that, just about anything you do will do that. For better or worse.
[21:46] <troy_s> knome: Get some sleep.
[21:46] <knome> no, i will listen to music
[21:46] <knome> i'm open for this discussion later, though tomorrow is a bad day since we have guests