[10:58] <lifeless> persia: do we have a meeting tonight?
[10:58]  * persia double-checks but thinks so
[10:59] <persia> We're scheduled for one.
[11:00] <elky> Now or plus an hour?
[11:01] <persia> Now.
[11:01] <elky> Awesome.
[11:01] <persia> And didn't time there change minus?
[11:01] <elky> persia, i'm not sure we've successfully had one since the UK changed, but correct me if i'm wrong
[11:02] <persia> You may be right.
[11:02] <persia> That said, since none of us are in the UK, I think we oughtn't care.
[11:02] <elky> I'm just all thrown out with times as per the Humans Changing Crap thing that we do to make our own lives harder
[11:02]  * persia wonders if some nice soul has put up a DST map
[11:03] <persia> Yes!  We need to get more red on http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/DaylightSaving-World-Subdivisions.png/370px-DaylightSaving-World-Subdivisions.png
[11:03] <persia> (these are all the places that have sensibly stopped using DST)
[11:03] <elky> Ok, we're one short of quorum
[11:05] <persia> Looking at our area, it seems EDT, CDT, NZST, and Chatham Island Time are the remaining offenders.
[11:05] <ajmitch> we're innocent here...
[11:05] <persia> Those of you living there now or expecting to live there soon should complain to your governments and get them to stop the madness.
[11:06] <persia> ajmitch: Sorry.  The wikipedia map appears to be out of date.
[11:06]  * ajmitch storms parliament to redress this situation
[11:06] <persia> Wait.  Are you sure there's no NZDT or CHADT anymore?
[11:07] <ajmitch> there is, but it's ended for the next few months
[11:07] <persia> Oh, because of winter?
[11:07] <ajmitch> yes
[11:07] <persia> A perfect opportunity to make sure it never returns :)
[11:07] <ajmitch> it sounds like you don't like the idea of it :)
[11:09] <persia> Not really.  I like sun in the morning :)
[11:11]  * ajmitch wonders where the stray board members are
[11:12] <persia> Two of them seem to be detached, and the other is "Away"
[11:12] <persia> Oh, and the extra bonus folk never come anyway, so I don't even bother looking for them anymore.
[11:13] <ajmitch> that seems problematic
[11:13] <persia> Yeah, well.  We get to have elections soon.
[11:14] <ajmitch> wonderful
[11:14] <ajmitch> I'm not putting my name forward :)
[11:14] <persia> Which means that we have a decent chance of not having folks who don't participate on the board.
[11:14] <persia> Ae you sure?  Do you have something better to do at midnight on Tuesday nights?
[11:15] <ajmitch> it's only about 10PM here at the moment
[11:15] <ajmitch> but I couldn't guarantee availability, so I wouldn't want to contribute to your quorum problems
[11:19] <persia> I was thinking of end-of-meeting in the Summer, but yeah.
[11:19] <persia> om26er: Many apologies, but I believe we're going to fail to reach quorum this evening.
[11:19] <persia> (unless there's some kind soul from another board that wants to sit in)
[11:20]  * elky glances at popey
[11:21] <ajmitch> persia: I'm frequently up until past midnight anyway
[11:21]  * ajmitch is just filling in time finding some nasty problems on that rc bugs list
[11:22]  * ajmitch has seen themuso around this evening, isn't he on the board?
[11:22] <persia> Yes.
[11:23] <elky> he appears to currently be set /away
[11:24] <persia> Right.
[11:27] <popey> hmm?
[11:28] <elky> quorumfiller, but I'm not sure om26er is responsive anyway
[11:28]  * om26er is
[11:28] <elky> ooh, he is
[11:28] <popey> happy to
[11:28] <elky> lifeless: persia, still there?
[11:30] <elky> :(
[11:31] <elky> om26er, how about you introduce yourself and your contributions now, and if they reappear they can respond/query etc
[11:32] <om26er> My name is omer akram, I live in pakistan, I have been triaging bugs for ubuntu for a while
[11:32] <om26er> I work on empathy, gwibber and all indicators
[11:32] <om26er> send most of the empathy bugs upstream myself
[11:33] <om26er> I started with ubuntu-moblin-remix but that turned out to be a dead project then slowly moved to #ubuntu and then starting triaging
[11:33] <om26er> I am not  a programmer, I only triage bug for ubuntu
[11:34] <om26er> I adopted empathy and gwibber in 'adopt-a-packge'
[11:34] <popey> some nice testimonials there
[11:36] <persia> om26er: You've come before us previously.  What changed this time, or what brought you back?
[11:37] <om26er> persia, I was asked to come back with testimonials from the people I work with so this time I came with those
[11:37] <persia> Makes perfect sense, and matches my memory of your application :)
[11:37]  * persia is well-familiar with om26er, and has no further questions.
[11:38] <popey> om26er: what's your plan for MOTU?
[11:38] <popey> or rather "what's your plan for joining MOTU and perhaps becoming one"
[11:38] <om26er> popey, I am learning packaging, I thought packagers were also in MOTU?
[11:39] <om26er> I can do basic but still not perfect
[11:39] <persia> MOTU is but one of many development teams.
[11:39] <elky> Don't worry, they'll give you plenty of practice
[11:41] <om26er> I asked kamusin to cheer for me but he had a different time
[11:42] <popey> i have no more questions
[11:43] <om26er> Also I work very closely with upstream developers about their projects, often ask them at their IRC channels
[11:44] <persia> elky: lifeless: ?
[11:44] <elky> lifeless: are you still there?
[11:45] <elky> i have no questions
[11:46] <BUGabundo_remote> morning. I'm in favor of om26er aplication
[11:47] <om26er> thanks BUGabundo_remote
[11:49] <popey> ready to vote?
[11:50] <elky> all but lifeless, he can catch up later unless we can find another RMB member somewhere
[11:56] <popey> well, I'm about to leave for lunch, so if you need it my vote is +1 :)
[11:56] <popey> based on excellent feedback and a clear contribution to a core set of apps.
[11:56] <elky> +1 from me too
[11:57] <persia> +1 from me too: great job on cleaning up the wiki page and making your contributions clear.
[11:57] <persia> lifeless: So, say something :)
[11:58] <persia> lifeless, in case you have tab-completion-specific highlighting enabled.
[12:01] <persia> OK.  Timeout.
[12:01] <persia> lifeless, if you return, please vote and do minutes/announcements/team adds if you vote in favour.
[12:02] <persia> om26er: Sorry about that.  We'll get you sorted (either approved or deferred with clear comments) by the next meeting.
[12:05]  * vish cheers for om26er  :)
[12:06] <Vantrax> grats om26er
[12:08] <lifeless> hi
[12:08] <lifeless> back
[12:09] <lifeless> clearly I wandered off at precisely the wrong time
[12:09] <elky> Cool, you can still sneak in with a vote
[12:11] <lifeless> +1
[12:11] <lifeless> persia: ^
[12:11] <persia> Excellent.  Now go process the successful application :)
[12:11] <lifeless> persia: however I'm going to beg off doing the follow up
[12:11] <persia> om26er: Congratulations!
[12:11] <lifeless> as I've got a head cold
[12:11] <lifeless> and am -> bed right now
[12:11] <om26er> yeah
[12:11] <vish> om26er: congratulations!
[12:12] <elky> om26er, yaaaaaaaaay!
[12:12] <persia> lifeless: It's particularly annoying that you have a good excuse.
[12:12] <om26er> vish, thanks alot
[12:12] <persia> elky: Are you up for a while, or do you want me to do it?
[12:12] <elky> lifeless, get well :)
[12:12] <Damascene> om26er, hope that make you even better contributor :)
[12:12] <lifeless> persia: they have me on two antibiotics simultaneously, for the fun of it or something.
[12:12] <lifeless> gnight y'all
[12:12] <persia> gnight
[12:13] <om26er> persia, thanks
[12:13] <vish> Damascene: om26er has certainly been doing a *lot* of triaging , and certainly "addicted to Ubuntu" :)
[12:13] <elky> persia, if you fight with launchpad, i'll do the mail
[12:14] <Damascene> he was helping me with empathy bug report. and I knew he was very helpful
[12:14] <persia> Sure.
[12:14] <persia> elky: Done.
[12:14]  * om26er notes he got another testimonial on the wiki page :-)
[12:15] <elky> om26er, pfft, like you need it now
[12:15]  * ziroday lets out the balloons for om26er 
[12:15] <ziroday> even if I
[12:15] <ziroday> even if I'm a bit late to the parade
[14:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
[14:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100413
[14:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100413
[14:01] <asac> hi
[14:01] <NCommander> hi
[14:01] <ian_brasil> hey
[14:01] <JamieBennett> moo
[14:01] <asac> JamieBennett: ogra: StevenK: dyfet: GrueMaster: persia: ping
[14:01] <asac> :)
[14:01] <ogra> mooo
[14:01] <asac> i surely forgot someone
[14:01] <persia> You forgot *heaps* of folk
[14:01] <ogra> you forgot plars
[14:01]  * GrueMaster drags a large coffee mug into the room.
[14:01] <persia> and ian_brasil
[14:01] <persia> and rbelem
[14:02] <JamieBennett> and dmart :)
[14:02] <NCommander> [topic] Action Items from April 6th, 2010
[14:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from April 6th, 2010
[14:02] <dmart> hi
[14:02] <JamieBennett> ;)
[14:02] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster and plars to continue to keep working with crimsun on ARM PulseAudi
[14:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster and plars to continue to keep working with crimsun on ARM PulseAudi
[14:02] <GrueMaster> Fixed.
[14:02] <JamieBennett> \o/
[14:03] <plars> hi
[14:03] <NCommander> [topic] asac to upload libplist with -marm
[14:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac to upload libplist with -marm
[14:03] <GrueMaster> It turned out to be libspeex.  I had thought the patch from NCommander had made it into the build, but upon digging deeper, I found it hadn't.
[14:04] <asac> done
[14:04] <asac> actually wasnt needed
[14:04] <plars> good work NCommander and GrueMaster on that bug btw
[14:04] <asac> it worked after replacing the builders with good hardware
[14:04] <asac> ack ... thanks NCommander and GrueMaster
[14:04] <NCommander> [topic] asac and dmart to get firefox rendering issue upstreamed
[14:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac and dmart to get firefox rendering issue upstreamed
[14:04] <GrueMaster> No applause please, just buy us beer.  :P
[14:05] <asac> we upstreamed, but have no input so far
[14:05] <asac> will do a debugging session with roc as a last resort
[14:05] <NCommander> [topic] ericm, plars, NCommander to investigate uboot-mkimage breakage and offline dove installation
[14:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  ericm, plars, NCommander to investigate uboot-mkimage breakage and offline dove installation
[14:05] <dmart> ok
[14:05] <NCommander> no progress from me, plars, anything for you?
[14:05] <plars> no
[14:06] <ogra> whats broken ?
[14:06] <NCommander> c/o
[14:06] <ogra> uboot-mkimage is totally generic
[14:06] <NCommander> ogra: offline installation
[14:06] <NCommander> ogra: but its unconfirmed if its broken
[14:07] <plars> right, we need to check that first
[14:07] <ogra> but why is uboot-mkimage involved here ?
[14:07] <ogra> the package only contains a single file
[14:07] <dmart> Does someone have a bug link?
[14:07] <ogra> (the mkimage binary)
[14:07] <NCommander> ogra: its installed by flash-kernel-installer into the squashfs
[14:07] <NCommander> long story
[14:07] <NCommander> on why its like that
[14:08]  * ogra could imagine flash-kernel being broken but still doesnt get why uboot-mkimage is at fault
[14:08] <NCommander> ogra: because if it isn't on the CD, apt-get will try to download it from the wbe and cause offline installation to fail
[14:09] <ogra> well, then its either a seed or a dependency issue :)
[14:09] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander and plars to work together to reinitialize plars's NAND flash on his X0
[14:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander and plars to work together to reinitialize plars's NAND flash on his X0
[14:09] <plars> we didn't get to that this week
[14:09] <NCommander> no progress
[14:09] <plars> but it wasn't urgent at all
[14:10] <persia> Which version of mtd-utils were you using?
[14:10] <plars> and I know NCommander has been pretty swamped :)
[14:10] <NCommander> no ericm so skipping his action item
[14:10] <NCommander> persia: his board been throwing NAND errors in the kernel log, I was going ot have him reset it in u-boot
[14:10] <persia> Oh.  That can be done from the OS as well.
[14:10] <persia> plars: Catch me later in the week if NCommander is busy, and I'll see if I can help.
[14:11] <plars> ok
[14:11] <NCommander> persia: there is some uniqueness on how NAND is done on Marvell which means I think it should be done in flash
[14:11] <NCommander> er
[14:11] <NCommander> in u-boot
[14:11] <persia> OK.
[14:11] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to coordinate with lamont on determining if OOo build failure is HW specific
[14:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to coordinate with lamont on determining if OOo build failure is HW specific
[14:11] <NCommander> Happened, Didn't Help :-/
[14:11] <NCommander> [topic] persia and NCommander to test and improve server image experience
[14:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia and NCommander to test and improve server image experience
[14:11] <NCommander> c/o unfortnately
[14:11] <persia> No point.
[14:12] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[14:12] <persia> We'll be in deep freeze by the next meeting.
[14:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[14:12] <NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
[14:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-mobile.html
[14:12] <NCommander> This is it folks
[14:12] <JamieBennett> doesn't look too bad
[14:12] <NCommander> nope
[14:13] <NCommander> Skipping kernel status since no ericm or coolney
[14:13] <NCommander> er
[14:13] <NCommander> wait
[14:13] <ogra> hmm
[14:13] <NCommander> and no amitk
[14:13] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
[14:13] <asac> i think workitems wise we are well set
[14:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
[14:13] <ogra> i would have liked an update about the regulator issues oon imx51
[14:13] <asac> ogra: do we have the patch yet?
[14:13] <ogra> asac, since a week or so
[14:13] <asac> e.g. the missing piece?
[14:13] <plars> Beta 2 iso testing completed
[14:13] <asac> ok
[14:14] <ogra> the new BSP went into the public GIT
[14:14] <asac> ogra: as a SRU?
[14:14] <ogra> and is supposed to have the fix
[14:14] <plars> I'll update the pairwise stuff
[14:14] <plars> probably today
[14:14] <ogra> the beagle kernel looks quite sane now at least for the C4
[14:14] <GrueMaster> I'm finding a lot of bugs testing various apps.    ~11 this last week.
[14:14] <plars> also something we need to get on this week is upgrade testing
[14:14] <plars> I plan to do upgrade testing on at least imx51 this week
[14:15] <asac> we dont have hardy ;) ... so just karmic-lucid upgrades i guess
[14:15] <plars> right
[14:15] <plars> just karmic-lucid
[14:15] <asac> do we acutally support the hardware we supported in karmic still?
[14:15] <plars> yay
[14:15] <ogra> and we're not an LTS :)
[14:15] <plars> ogra: that too :)
[14:15] <NCommander> heh
[14:15] <ogra> asac, on babbage we did support b3
[14:15] <asac> i mean ... afaik karmic was armv6 ... now we are armv7. do we need to do something about that?
[14:15] <ogra> not on dove though
[14:15] <asac> e.g. preventing upgrades?
[14:16] <ogra> there is code i added to u-m
[14:16] <NCommander> asac: already have a sanity check in there as far as I know
[14:16] <asac> ok
[14:16] <ogra> that might need an enhancement
[14:16] <NCommander> ogra: ah, i was wondering who added that, thanks
[14:16] <asac> NCommander: what does that santiy check do?
[14:16] <asac> i guess we need to tweak/adjust that for karmic-lucid?
[14:16] <NCommander> asac: checks for ARMv{6|7} on upgrade from jaunty-> karmic -> lucid
[14:16] <ogra> asac, checking for ARMv5 in cpuinfo
[14:16] <NCommander> Don't remember if it was updated for ARMv7/Thumb2
[14:16] <ogra> and blocks if you are v5
[14:16] <asac> so is that just working right now? i guess it needs some love?
[14:16] <asac> who can take that actiuon?
[14:17] <ogra> it was only for nslu2 installs
[14:17]  * NCommander can't
[14:17]  * ogra would love to but wont have time
[14:17] <asac> who added that ?
[14:17] <ogra> me
[14:17] <asac> where is that check implemented?
[14:17] <ogra> update-manager
[14:17] <NCommander> asac: UpdateManagerQuirks
[14:17] <ogra> right
[14:17] <asac> ok ...
[14:17] <ogra> just look for ARM
[14:17] <asac> dyfet: are you there?
[14:17] <ogra> its the only code adding that
[14:17] <asac> dyfet: could you take the action to check if the update-manager tweaks are fine?
[14:18] <NCommander> [action] dyfet to check update-manager sanity checks for ARM upgrades
[14:18] <mvo> asac: if you change strings now people will get unhappy …
[14:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to check update-manager sanity checks for ARM upgrades
[14:18] <asac> mvo: hmm
[14:18] <mvo> but the check is definitely there
[14:18] <asac> mvo: what strings?
[14:18] <ogra> mvo, we'll only change the check
[14:18] <NCommander> mvo: asac we can probably use the same error message
[14:18] <asac> yeah
[14:18] <asac> hopefully
[14:18] <ogra> its babbles about v5 though
[14:18] <mvo> ok, iirc it mentions the arm version
[14:18] <asac> what does the current string read?
[14:18] <NCommander> anynthing else on QA?
[14:18] <plars> that's it from me
[14:18] <asac> thanks
[14:19] <ogra> tomorrows beagle images should be testable, please test
[14:19] <plars> yes!
[14:19] <asac> GrueMaster: any bugs you want to discuss that came out of your tests?
[14:19] <ogra> with more focus on d-i than on live
[14:19] <asac> or are those "general/low prio" bugs that dont need special attention?
[14:19] <ogra> live is very slow and not a fun thing to install
[14:19] <GrueMaster> Like I mentioned earlier, I found 11 new bugs this last week.
[14:19] <plars> and many thanks to ogra for plowing forward on the TI stuff and finding new things before they were really testable in the images
[14:19] <ogra> plars, i'm not done yet
[14:19] <GrueMaster> Yesterday, I found a critical bug with f-spot.
[14:20] <plars> ogra: heh, no doubt :)
[14:20] <ogra> and many thanks to plars for covering me while i was at a customer :)
[14:20] <plars> GrueMaster: are these all looking to be arm specific?
[14:20] <GrueMaster> Yes
[14:20] <ogra> f-spot ?
[14:20] <ogra> what broke ?
[14:20] <plars> GrueMaster: I have seen the f-spot one, but I don't think I've noticed subscriptions on the others, do you have a list?
[14:20] <GrueMaster> Bug 561874
[14:20] <GrueMaster> I'm working on a list.
[14:21] <asac> GrueMaster: ok thanks.
[14:21]  * ogra hasnt seen any of them in his bugmail
[14:21] <asac> [ACTION] gruemaster to assemble list of bugs that might need attention still ;)a
[14:21] <GrueMaster> I also sent a list early last week to ogra and asac of bugs that needed attention.
[14:21] <asac> GrueMaster: right. that was great
[14:21] <ogra> GrueMaster, are they all subscribed to ubuntu-armel ?
[14:21] <asac> just thought if there is anything new/else ;)
[14:21] <GrueMaster> I'm working on making sure they are subscribed.
[14:22]  * ogra wonders why they didnt end up in his bugmail folder
[14:22] <ogra> ah
[14:22] <ogra> ok
[14:22] <GrueMaster> asac: There are a lot of new bugs.  Will email later today.
[14:22] <asac> GrueMaster: ok. maybe we can send that list to ubuntu-mobile?
[14:22] <asac> l.u.c?
[14:22] <asac> i can take a quick look before sending there if you want me to filter
[14:23] <asac> moving on?
[14:23] <NCommander> [topic] #
[14:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[14:23] <NCommander> ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
[14:23] <NCommander> uh
[14:23] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
[14:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
[14:23] <asac> hehe
[14:23] <JamieBennett> webservice-office-zoho is in the images and seems to work (apart from a last minute hiccup late yesterday that is now fixed), webmail integration has had its MIR approved ready for inclusion. Not much else to report.
[14:24] <ogra> the .desktop file should really get a StartupNotify=Ture
[14:24] <ogra> *True
[14:24] <JamieBennett> ogra: I can do that today if we really need it
[14:24] <ogra> its a bit irritating that you dont get any notification
[14:25] <ogra> i just get dumped back to the favorites page
[14:25] <ogra> at least on beagle
[14:25] <asac> desktop-webmail is in archive and will get on image tomorrow ;)
[14:25] <ogra> asac, is there any progress on the scrollbar issue ?
[14:25] <JamieBennett> ogra: OK, I'll add that and kick asac to reupload it later :)
[14:25] <asac> with that we are fine and happy
[14:25] <ogra> it shows up quite heavily in the weboffice stuff
[14:25] <asac> ogra: i commented that above, didnt i?
[14:25]  * ogra missed it 
[14:26] <asac> ogra: so the stuff is upstreamed. but not much traction
[14:26] <ogra> meh
[14:26] <asac> ogra: i will go and debug this with "roc" ... who offered
[14:26] <asac> his help
[14:26] <ogra> ah, that was that, yeah, i saw that passing by :)
[14:26] <ogra> sorry for not paying enough attention
[14:26] <asac> roc is the layout superguru on mozilla ;)
[14:26]  * ogra trioes to do 7 things at once
[14:26] <asac> hehe
[14:26] <asac> no problem
[14:26] <asac> so yeah. i really hope i get a lead on that
[14:27] <asac> i see that its annoying
[14:27] <ogra> especially if we promote weboffice ... its quite prominent in the docs
[14:28] <asac> ok
[14:28] <asac> *nods*
[14:28] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
[14:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
[14:28] <NCommander> OOo is broken again, I think we just need to upload -marm and hope for the  best
[14:28] <NCommander> theres not enough time to properly test any fix before final freeze
[14:29] <ogra> what happened to gphoto ?
[14:29] <ogra> i saw it vanished from the list, did someone actually fix it ?
[14:29] <NCommander> ogra: libgphoto?
[14:29] <persia> DIdn't didrocks say it wasn't in shape for lucid?
[14:29] <NCommander> I hit retry onit, but didn't follow up on it
[14:30] <ogra> NCommander, ah
[14:30] <ogra> so i probably looked when it was building
[14:30] <ogra> its timing out
[14:30] <asac> i gave back gphoto
[14:30] <asac> i dont think it succeeded
[14:30] <ogra> i didnt find any example code to get around it, else i would have fixed it yesterday
[14:30] <asac> ogra: whats the problem?
[14:30] <ogra> asac, iot needs some pinger mechanism to keep the shell active
[14:31] <ogra> the buildd times out if there is no output for 150min
[14:31] <asac> ogra: hmm. you say the logg pipe times out?
[14:31] <asac> interesting
[14:31] <asac> and 150min is normal here?
[14:31] <NCommander> ogra: that needs lamont to change the sbuild time out
[14:31] <asac> that feels too long even on arm ;)
[14:31] <ogra> i know we have other packages that added something to debian/rules to generate some noise every 60min
[14:31] <NCommander> asac: 150m is default
[14:31] <NCommander> ogra: it builds locally?
[14:31] <persia> We havea  script that keeps builds active, but it can mean builds running for weeks if they really hang.
[14:31] <asac> well. i mean: a package that doesnt spit out stuff for 150min is not broken? feels like there is a bug
[14:31] <ogra> NCommander, no, that should be fixed in the package and we have other packages that use a hack
[14:32] <ogra> asac, no, there are plenty packages that build -dbg packages with lzma which is very slow on arm
[14:32] <NCommander> ogra: having the script make noise is a bad idea
[14:32] <NCommander> ogra: too easy to hang in inifinite loop
[14:32] <NCommander> we had that issue wtih sparc a lot
[14:32] <ogra> NCommander, thats what others have done
[14:33] <NCommander> the right method is to extend the delay
[14:33] <ogra> and what we promoted during karmic iirc
[14:33] <NCommander> ogra: thats what you done, I've had lamont fix the ones I found
[14:33] <ogra> i havent done anything
[14:33] <ogra> NCommander, can you take care then for gphoto ?
[14:33] <NCommander> ogra: the right solution is to extend the timeout in the prename place for it in the build system, not hack up makefiles and deviate from debian
[14:33] <NCommander> ogra: if I have time OOo is my priority
[14:34] <ogra> NCommander, well, its a give-.back and can happen after final freeze
[14:34] <NCommander> fair enough
[14:34] <NCommander> I'll look at it when I'm done with OOo
[14:34] <ogra> you just seem to know a proper solution :)
[14:34] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
[14:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
[14:34] <ogra> did you talk to the likewise guys ?
[14:34] <ogra> so they apply the patch properly ?
[14:35] <NCommander> ogra: no, I haven't finished refixing the patch inbetween OOo builds
[14:35] <ogra> hmm, gphoto didnt come back omn the ftbfs page yet
[14:36] <ogra> when did you give it back ?
[14:36] <ogra> ah, its pending
[14:36] <NCommander> ogra: I don't remember if I did
[14:36] <asac> i gave it back iirc
[14:36] <ogra> someone said he did ... asac
[14:36] <asac> but more than a day ago
[14:36] <asac> but no build score boost powers ;)
[14:36] <ogra> yeah, its waiting for free buildd time
[14:37] <ogra> the builders are pretty stuck with long term packages atm
[14:37] <persia> Given the size of the queue, it may be best to wait a day or so to let it settle.
[14:37] <ogra> 207 packages
[14:37] <ogra> and still a ton of haskell building :/
[14:38] <NCommander> uvh
[14:38] <NCommander> *ugh
[14:38] <ogra> and openjdk
[14:38] <persia> And more haskell to go once those build.
[14:38] <NCommander> just ping me if we need rescores
[14:38] <ogra> and kdelibs
[14:38] <ogra> we need more builders
[14:38] <NCommander> On image status, where are we?
[14:38] <ogra> its an impact of having lost two
[14:38] <NCommander> ogra: we need a lot of things :-/
[14:38] <ogra> we only have 6 instead of 8
[14:39] <asac> whats the problem with the builders?
[14:39] <persia> asac: 20 hours behind.
[14:39] <asac> also   3335557  [building]  Building armel build of haskell-json 0.4.3-3 in ubuntu lucid RELEASE
[14:39] <asac> is DEAD
[14:39] <ogra> asac, no idea, we need to ask lamont ... when he replaced machines itz seems he only replaced 6 but not 8
[14:39] <asac> its building since 6 days
[14:39] <asac> hanging at Setting up ghc6-doc (6.12.1-12) ...
[14:39] <asac> i think that machine just hard crashed
[14:40] <asac> so i assume we only have 4
[14:40] <asac> builders --- if we are happy
[14:40] <NCommander> asac: LP will time it out if it did after buildd-queue fails to talk to it
[14:40] <asac> NCommander: not in this case it seems
[14:40] <NCommander> asac: machine must not be completley dead
[14:40] <ogra> it should have timed out after 150min ... as discussed above :)
[14:40] <asac> yes thats what i think
[14:40] <asac> ok /me goes #is
[14:41] <JamieBennett> someone needs to take an action to talk to lamont about the builder situation
[14:41] <ogra> ++
[14:41] <NCommander> ogra: persia image status?
[14:41] <ogra> NCommander, fine
[14:41] <NCommander> good
[14:41] <dmart> I guess we need to push that --- running out of builders between freeze and release is a risk
[14:41] <ogra> begale will be better tomorrow but not yet perfect
[14:41] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[14:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[14:41] <ogra> the others are ok as usual
[14:41] <ian_brasil> speaking earleir of kdelibs, we are participating in a discussion with upstream to provide some KDE_PLATFORM_PROFILEs that can enable fine grained switches to change things during the kdelibs build. Based on this patch http://paste.ubuntu.com/413636/
[14:42] <ian_brasil> comments welcome
[14:42] <ogra> dmart, we'll care for it ...
[14:42] <dmart> sure
[14:42] <plars> did we miss kernel status updates?
[14:43] <JamieBennett> not kernel guys here
[14:43] <persia> plars: No kernel folk showed up.
[14:43] <plars> oh, I see
[14:43] <ogra> ian_brasil, so will that mean that we get three packages instead of one ?
[14:43] <rbelem> ian_brasil, we have some other patches to to the build system
[14:43] <ogra> seems to me that we want all thee flavours in the archive for different tasks
[14:43] <ogra> which scares me since that means three build runs
[14:43] <ogra> tripling the build time
[14:44] <persia> ian_brasil: I'm a little worried about the implications of that in terms of way in which we compile stuff.  I'm a fan of finer-grained pacakging, but we only get one compile run that has to serve all of desktop/tablet/mobile (or else we have to run through the compoile three times, which takes three times as long, as annoys the mirror providers).
[14:44] <rbelem> ogra, yep... i do not agree with that patch
[14:45] <ian_brasil> rbelem, +1
[14:45] <rbelem> i will finish the patches and send to the list
[14:45] <asac> rbelem: ian_brasil: unrelated question: is liquid moving forward for lucid+1? do you need a UDS slot?
[14:46] <rbelem> that patch is about splitting the kdebase workspace
[14:46] <rbelem> asac, yep
[14:46] <rbelem> asac, i think we will need some space for discussions
[14:46] <persia> rbelem: Do we need a slot just for liquid, or do we need a couple specs in collaboration with the Kubuntu folk (I thought the latter)?
[14:46] <ian_brasil> asac, rbelem will be there and some talk aboput issues like this would be useful
[14:47] <asac> rbelem: cool. i will get in touch with you after meeting/later today
[14:47] <rbelem> persia, collaboration with kubuntu guys is totally needed
[14:48] <asac> same topic for EVERYONE: if you have specs you want to register feel free to poke me ... we are going to review the whole ubuntu arm spec list at least twice this week, so getting good sessions is appreciated ;
[14:48] <rbelem> asac, sweet
[14:48] <persia> rbelem: Let's chat after the meeting and get ideas in order, and then propose some specs to fit with their schedule.
[14:48] <NCommander> anyone mind if I close out the meeting?
[14:48] <asac> NCommander: please submit spec proposals ;) ... and yes. i think we are done
[14:48] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[14:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:48.
[14:49] <rbelem> persia, ok :-)
[14:49] <asac> thanks!
[15:40] <cody-somerville> Did I miss the DMB meeting? My calendar shows it in 20 minutes, but the fridge shows it started 40 minutes ago.
[15:41] <persia> The fridge got confused by DST.
[15:41] <persia> It's in 20 minutes.
[15:41] <persia> Are you able to fix that?  I remember you had some magic fridge powers in the past.
[15:43] <cody-somerville> yup
[15:44] <cody-somerville> ugh, although it means I'd have to update all events to avoid conflicts.
[15:45] <cody-somerville> ah, found the solution
[15:45] <cody-somerville> okay, fixed it for all events :)
[15:47] <persia> Set timezone to Reykjavik?
[15:55] <persia> OK folks.  Time to get that drink, run that quick errand, etc.  We'll be starting in about 5 minutes.
[16:00] <persia> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is persia.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[16:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[16:00] <persia> soren: cody-somerville: geser: nixternal:
[16:00] <cody-somerville> :)
[16:01] <persia> (cjwatson may not be able to make it, stgraber won't be able to make it)
[16:01] <persia> [TOPIC] Action Items
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items
[16:01] <persia> persia contacts Angel Abad about his application
[16:01] <persia> I sent email, but have no response.  I will seek Angel out more particularly on IRC.
[16:01] <persia> complete the application of Jonathan Thomas
[16:02] <persia> Jonathan was confirmed with 4 votes in favour, and 3 votes to defer.  I've sent an anouncement.
[16:02] <persia> complete the application of Matt Trudel
[16:02] <persia> This went on too long.  I've tallied the votes, and the result was 2 in favour, 4 to defer, and 1 against.
[16:02] <cyphermox> I was under the impression that my application was completed a few weeks ago, and that it wasn't passing ;)
[16:03]  * soren finally managed to win the battle against hotel internet and wanders in
[16:03] <persia> cyphermox: I couldn't find it in logs.  Sorry if I'm duplicating.  Please apply again later.
[16:03] <persia> [TOPIC] Administrative matters
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Administrative matters
[16:03] <cyphermox> I however sent an email to DMB about a different matter, but it hasn't made it to the agenda (sorry)
[16:03] <persia> [TOPIC] Appropriate body to handle requests for new deelopment teams
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Appropriate body to handle requests for new deelopment teams
[16:03] <persia> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-April/000184.html
[16:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-April/000184.html
[16:04] <persia> So, mdz suggested that the DMB may have inherited the authority to oversee the creation and administration of new teams.
[16:04] <persia> Interested folks should follow up on that thread so we can reach consensus with the TB.
[16:04] <nixternal> hola
[16:06] <persia> cyphermox: If you don't mind, I'd like to defer your request for an NM team until we have consensus there, but we can certainly hear PPU applications in the meantime, so the effect ought be similar.
[16:06] <persia> [TOPIC] Interpretation of votes
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Interpretation of votes
[16:06] <cyphermox> yes, absolutely, it makes sense
[16:07]  * geser waves
[16:07] <persia> There was some discussion about this in the last meeting.  I wasn't present, and sent some email.  Do we wish to continue the discussion here, or in email?
[16:08] <cody-somerville> Can we vote to adopt your interpretation? I share it and someone else mentioned they did as well.
[16:08] <nixternal> +1 on that
[16:08] <persia> RIght then.
[16:09] <cjwatson> here
[16:09] <nixternal> there
[16:09] <persia> So the ruleset I proposed is as follows:
[16:09] <persia> 1) Any applicant must surpass a threshold of +4 to be confirmed
[16:09] <cjwatson> +1 on persia's interp
[16:09] <persia> 2) Any positive vote adds 1 to the vote count per individual voter
[16:09] <persia> 3) Any negative vote subtracts 1 from the vote count per individual voter
[16:10] <persia> 4) Any zero vote does not affect the vote count
[16:10] <persia> [VOTE] Confirm voting interpretation for the DMB
[16:10] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Confirm voting interpretation for the DMB.
[16:10] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:10] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:10] <persia> +1
[16:10] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:10] <nixternal> +1
[16:10] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:10] <cody-somerville> +1
[16:10] <geser> +1
[16:10] <MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[16:10] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[16:10] <soren> 0
[16:10] <nixternal> there goes soren breaking bots again :D
[16:10] <cjwatson> +q
[16:11] <cjwatson> +1
[16:11] <soren> +0
[16:11] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[16:11] <MootBot> Abstention received from soren. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
[16:11] <soren> Ah, there we go.
[16:11] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[16:11] <MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
[16:11] <soren> Something about it still seems wrong to me, but I don't have any better proposals. Hence the +0.
[16:11] <persia> So I think that passes whether we accept that interpetation or the traditional one.
[16:11] <persia> [TOPIC] ensuring transparency of applications taken to email
[16:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  ensuring transparency of applications taken to email
[16:12] <persia> So I noticed when processing JontheEchidna's application that we have a nice public log of votes not in email, but not one for votes in email.
[16:12] <persia> Any thoughts on how to resolve this, or does it matter, if we post the results?
[16:13] <cjwatson> I think it's OK to just post a vote manifest
[16:13] <nixternal> makes the email smaller
[16:13] <persia> OK.  Shall these be included in future Welcome mails, or be included in the next DMB meeting (so as to be in the u-d-a archives)?
[16:14] <geser> isn't a mail to devel-permissions with the voting result enough to publish them?
[16:14] <nixternal> oh oh...just the votes wouldn't be to bad
[16:15] <nixternal> I think that was my fault for not posting the votes and just linking to the manifest...I should have done both in that email
[16:15] <persia> So, summary votes to devel-permissions in advance of the welcome mail?
[16:15] <geser> unless there is a huge time difference between that mail and the welcome mail, the order shouldn't matter much
[16:16] <cjwatson> either in advance or with, I don't think it matters much
[16:16] <persia> Anyone confused on this matter, or shall we proceed?
[16:17] <persia> OK then :)
[16:17] <persia> (Catching up with the bit I missed)
[16:17] <persia> [TOPIC] Application process and public notification times
[16:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Application process and public notification times
[16:17] <persia> We've asked for a week's notice on devel-permissions prior to hearing an application.  Sometimes we get that, sometimes not, sometimes it's close.
[16:18] <persia> My preference is to continue to enforce this to encourage more public comment.  Does that seem reasonable to all?
[16:18] <geser> +1
[16:18] <cjwatson> seems reasonable
[16:18] <soren> yes
[16:19] <cjwatson> as long as it's clearly documented
[16:19] <geser> it's mentioned on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[16:19] <geser> but could use a little emphasis
[16:20] <geser> making it bold or something like that
[16:20] <cody-somerville> I don't think I was even subscribed to that list.
[16:21] <persia> Anyone want to take a stab at making the documentation clearer?
[16:21] <persia> Fine then.
[16:22] <persia> [ACTION] persia to make documentation on application notice clearer
[16:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to make documentation on application notice clearer
[16:22] <cody-somerville> Should all members of the DMB be subscribed to devel-permissions? I'm not entirely sure of its purpose. If so, can we have someone with the necessary permissions ensure all members are subscribed? I just subscribed myself but I'm wondering if others are in the same boat.
[16:22] <persia> cody-somerville: Doesn't matter, but I think we're expected to read it (wheter the archives or by subscription seems a personal choice)
[16:23] <persia> OK.  Moving on.
[16:24] <geser> as I understand it the purpose is to have common list for approvals (either through DMB or the delegated teams)
[16:24] <persia> [TOPIC] Per-Package Uploader application for Krzysztof Klimonda (kklimonda)
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-Package Uploader application for Krzysztof Klimonda (kklimonda)
[16:24] <kklimonda> hmm, that's me :)
[16:24] <persia> Err, sorry.  If there's more on application process, let's do that.
[16:25] <geser> apropos applications: does somebody know the status of the application of Sylvestre Ledru from March 19th?
[16:25] <nixternal> nothing more here
[16:26] <geser> there was a mail to devel-permissions but it doesn't reached our agenda
[16:26] <persia> geser: Never made the agenda.  Are you up for following up with Sylvestre and getting it on the agenda for the 27th?
[16:26] <geser> can do
[16:27] <persia> [ACTION] geser to follow up with Sylvestre Ledru and arrange for the application to be added to the meeting agenda.
[16:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  geser to follow up with Sylvestre Ledru and arrange for the application to be added to the meeting agenda.
[16:27] <persia> OK.  This time for real.
[16:27] <persia> [TOPIC] Per-Package Uploader application for Krzysztof Klimonda (kklimonda)
[16:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Per-Package Uploader application for Krzysztof Klimonda (kklimonda)
[16:27] <geser> while I am it, should I also mail imbrandon to attend our next meeting?
[16:27] <persia> I advised him that would probably be the case when he sent the mail.
[16:28] <kklimonda> should I introduce myself?
[16:28] <persia> kklimonda: You seem to have uploaded a variety of packages: what makes you choose transmission alone as a PPU target?
[16:30] <nixternal> persia: can you add links to kklimonda's wiki/lp pages so it is in the manifest?
[16:30] <persia> Oh, right.  Sorry.
[16:30] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KrzysztofKlimonda/TransmissionPPUApplication
[16:30] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KrzysztofKlimonda/TransmissionPPUApplication
[16:30] <nixternal> hehe, I forgot to do it as well last meeting
[16:30] <persia> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~kklimonda
[16:30] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~kklimonda
[16:30] <nixternal> and of course, wiki.ubuntu.com is dead for me
[16:30] <persia> (just because the link doesn't work on the application page)
[16:31] <kklimonda> the reason I'd like to get PPU rights to the transmission is to lower the burden on chrisccoulson who was the one who were sponsoring all my previous uploads. It worked fine until he has started working on Canonical but now he's busy and getting him to sponsor packages takes time. Because of that I've missed one upload before Beta 2 freeze, now Final Freeze is approaching and I have one more
[16:31] <kklimonda> upload I'd like to do.
[16:32] <kklimonda> I'd like to get some more experience (especially with packaging from scratch) before I start applying for the access to wider package sets
[16:33] <cody-somerville> kklimonda, You mentioned in things that you can improve on: "I really have to check all my changes twice before pushing or attaching them"
[16:33] <cody-somerville> kklimonda, Have you improved in that area? Would you double check your changes if you had PPU permissions for Transmission?
[16:35] <geser> what are the common mistakes you do which you miss in your first checks?
[16:36] <kklimonda> cody-somerville: I had a problem with two things in the past: with changing maintainer in the control file and pushing branch with UNRELEASED pocket, nothing that affects users directly. I think I've managed to improve in this area since I've started working on packaging.
[16:36] <kklimonda> geser: ^
[16:37] <kklimonda> cody-somerville: yes - if I were to upload directly to the main archive I'd double and triple check everything.
[16:38]  * nixternal either - that UNRELEASED gets me everytime
[16:38] <persia> kklimonda: One of the things you mention that you dislike about Ubuntu is weak communication channels with teh design team.  How do you believe these can be improved?
[16:39] <kklimonda> persia: I've proposed, as a joke, that all design changes affecting users should come with an "advocacy manual" attached.
[16:40] <persia> Do you think there are things we, as developers, could do to foster a better understanding of why specific changes are implemented to support advocacy?
[16:40] <kklimonda> persia: although it's a joke I believe that Ayatana team should be more open about "whys" of their decisions. Probably ayatana ML should be more active, especially when they do something as.. unexpected as changing windows control button order or place.
[16:42] <kklimonda> persia: can you rephrase "foster better understanding"? :)
[16:43] <persia> kklimonda: To  improve the communcication so that all parties (designers, developers, advocates) have a shared view of why we do the things we do.
[16:45] <kklimonda> persia: the idea of moving design discussion of the public mailing list has been made by the ayatana team afair, so I don't think we can do much. What I'd like to see was more communication from their side.
[16:47] <cody-somerville> I'm ready to vote.
[16:47]  * persia has no further questions
[16:47] <soren> '
[16:48] <soren> Whoops :)
[16:48]  * soren has no further questions either
[16:49] <persia> geser: cjwatson: nixternal: ?
[16:50] <geser> no further questions
[16:50] <nixternal> nothing here
[16:51] <persia> [VOTE} Accept Krzysztof Klimonda as Uploader for transmission
[16:51] <MootBot> Please vote on: [VOTE} Accept Krzysztof Klimonda as Uploader for transmission.
[16:51] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[16:51] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[16:51] <persia> +1 from me.  Clear history of package maintenance and use of freeze exceptions, SRUs, etc demonstating familiarity with Ubuntu processes and schedules.
[16:51] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[16:51] <nixternal> +1
[16:51] <MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[16:51] <geser> +1
[16:51] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[16:52] <soren> +1!
[16:52] <soren> +1
[16:52] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[16:52] <geser> soren: you are not persia who can replace a ] with a } and the bot still understand him :)
[16:52] <soren> That bot really is picky about syntax.
[16:52] <soren> geser: it's not fair
[16:53] <soren> :)
[16:53]  * cody-somerville ponders.
[16:53] <persia> Seems we lost cjwatson, so here's a paste fom before the meeting (he mentioned he might have connectivity issues):
[16:53] <persia> If I don't make it, please consider this a +1 for kklimonda's transmission PPU application based on comments from Chris and Martin
[16:53] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[16:53] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[16:53] <cody-somerville> I didn't vote :(
[16:53] <persia> cody-somerville: What's your vote then.
[16:54] <persia> (sorry: I can't count today)
[16:54] <cody-somerville> +1 because of comments from Chris and Martin but with reservations due to the short period of time the applicant has been uploading Transmission (~ 3 months).
[16:55] <kklimonda> cody-somerville: I think my first T upload was somewhere in Jun 2009
[16:55] <persia> OK.  That's +6.
[16:55] <cody-somerville> kklimonda, Of Transmission?
[16:55] <persia> kklimonda: Congratulations, and welcome!
[16:56] <nixternal> cody-somerville: yeah, aptitude changelog transmission :)
[16:56] <nixternal> kklimonda: congrats and welcome!
[16:56] <persia> I don't actually know how to process a PPU approval.  Anyone else up for processing this one?
[16:56]  * nixternal points at cjwatson 
[16:57] <cody-somerville> Ah, launchpad made that information difficult to easily see.
[16:57] <persia> (or walking me through the process)
[16:57] <cody-somerville> I guess I have no reservations :)
[16:57] <cody-somerville> persia, I think cjwatson has to do it. I don't think non-TB members have the necessary permissions.
[16:57] <persia> OK.  We ought fix that.
[16:57] <persia> Moving on.
[16:57] <persia> No other applications.
[16:57] <kklimonda> nixternal: thanks
[16:57] <persia> Who is chair next time?
[16:58]  * nixternal points at cody-somerville 
[16:58] <cody-somerville> hehe
[16:58] <cody-somerville> Okay okay
[16:58] <nixternal> hahaha, I am having fun pointing this morning
[16:58] <persia> Great then.  I'll send minutes in a bit.
[16:58] <persia> #endmeeting
[16:58] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:58.
[16:58] <nixternal> I meant to point at cjwatson, but c<tab> and it highlighted you
[16:58] <nixternal> since I pointed at him just a minute ago
[16:59] <kklimonda> persia: also thanks :)
[17:00] <geser> persia: I'm not sure about it if edit_acl.py from lp:ubuntu-archive-tools is also used for PPU permissions
[17:00] <geser> but a quick look shows that it might
[17:00] <geser> persia: if you are brave you could try if LP lets you
[17:01] <soren> That's at least the tool you use to inspect permissions. cjwatson tends put the command to do that in the e-mails he sends out after giving someone PPU privs.
[17:02] <persia> geser: I tried to play with edit_acl.py on Sunday, and only managed to get it to crash (and there's no manpage).
[17:02] <persia> Part of why I requested the creation of a Kernel Uploaders team was because I couldn't otherwise process an outstanding application :)
[17:26] <geser> persia: in theory "edit_acl.py --source=transmission --person=kklimonda add" should do it, but all I get is an OOPS from LP
[17:26] <cody-somerville> It won't work. We don't have the necessary permissions.
[17:27] <cody-somerville> DMB needs to be added to the ubuntu-drivers team.
[17:27] <persia> That's something to sort out then: we can't always count on there being a TB member on the DMB.
[17:27] <persia> Or the permissions for that need to change.
[17:28] <cody-somerville> Yes.
[18:31] <cjwatson> persia: sorry I fell off connectivity there.  I've run './edit_acl.py -s transmission -p kklimonda add'.
[18:32] <cjwatson> DMB/ubuntu-drivers> that really doesn't sound right - is that really the appropriate team?  unfortunately LP makes it kind of hard to discover which privilege you're using when you're performing an action.
[18:36] <cjwatson>     def checkAuthenticated(self, user):
[18:36] <cjwatson>         """Users must be an admin or a member of the tech board."""
[18:36] <cjwatson>         return user.in_admin or user.in_ubuntu_techboard
[18:36] <cjwatson> so ubuntu-drivers wouldn't help.
[18:36] <cody-somerville> cjwatson, Where do you see that?
[18:36] <cjwatson> lib/canonical/launchpad/security.py
[18:36] <cjwatson> class EditArchivePermissionSet
[18:37] <cjwatson> I'm filing a bug
[18:40] <cjwatson> bug 562451
[19:47] <Hawkeye> Hello all...
[19:48] <Hawkeye> How long before this meething starts?
[19:48] <Hawkeye> meeting*
[19:49]  * Hawkeye will be unable to attend, but will read the conversation when he comes back. He will leave this window open...
[19:50] <Hawkeye> cjohnston: I am interested in helping out. I will notice you my email address
[19:50] <cjohnston> ok..
[19:50] <cjohnston> thanks
[19:51] <Hawkeye> However right now I need to get to bed as I have been up 32 hours straight recovering data from a failed server and rebuilding...
[19:51] <Hawkeye> Chat soon!
[19:52] <Hawkeye> :D
[20:00] <cjohnston> Who is here for the website localization meeting?
[20:00]  * pleia2 lurks and listens :)
[20:02] <cjohnston> Anyone?
[20:03]  * newz2000 is
[20:03] <adiroiban> o/
[20:04] <cjohnston> Ok.. Well.. I guess we can start...
[20:05]  * Agafonov just curious
[20:05] <cjohnston> The goal of the website localization project is to put a short message in a users preferred language on any ubuntu.com web page, that directs the user to more help in thier language.
[20:06] <cjohnston> The page that the users is offered will be a wiki page that has been translated from a template, which offeres resources in their language.
[20:07] <adiroiban> note, that many local communities already have wikis, forums and a translated version for doc.ubuntu.com
[20:07] <cjohnston> newz2000 has come up with a way to determine the users preferred language as set by their browser and then will display a short line that will display the info from a .js file
[20:07] <cjohnston> adiroiban, however, a user visiting www.ubunutu.com won't know that
[20:08] <adiroiban> cjohnston: yes
[20:08] <cjohnston> the goal here is to assist the user in getting to those pages
[20:08] <adiroiban> but rather than creating a new wiki
[20:08] <adiroiban> maybe we can build something on top of the ubuntu documentation translations
[20:09] <cjohnston> adiroiban: the new wiki page will be like a landing page for that language.. which can direct them to multiple resources.. forums, other translated pages, etc
[20:09] <adiroiban> cjohnston: yes, but wiki pages are hard to translate
[20:09] <adiroiban> and keep in sync with the original text
[20:10] <adiroiban> this is why I was suggesting a docbook
[20:10] <cjohnston> newz2000, thoughts?
[20:10] <newz2000> adiroiban: the pages probably won't be a direct translations
[20:10] <adiroiban> with translations extracted and available for translation in Launchapd translations
[20:10] <adiroiban> and generated static HTML pages
[20:10] <newz2000> the template will be a guideline of information that needs to be presented but will differ for each locale
[20:10] <adiroiban> newz2000: ok
[20:11] <newz2000> but the idea of the documentation is interesting...
[20:11] <Agafonov> Why not to link to any site LoCo decide to fit better their users?
[20:11] <newz2000> because as cjohnston will come to, we do have a quality control hurdle to jump through
[20:11] <adiroiban> +1 to newz2000 :)
[20:11] <newz2000> cjohnston: continue
[20:12] <cjohnston> We will need people to create the technical backend to this.. which will be the first step of the project
[20:12] <cjohnston> and then we will involve the loco teams and translation teams to setup the landing pages for each language
[20:13] <cjohnston> There will need to be a strict review process for the translated pages, to ensure that they dont get filled with spam, or link to pages that don't actually provide any useful information
[20:13] <adiroiban> one good think about using docbook is that we already have all the infrastructure to generate translated pages for https://help.ubuntu.com/
[20:14] <cjohnston> we also need to make a couple of decions on how to structure a few things
[20:15] <cjohnston> newz2000, do you want to discuss the technical aspect of this?
[20:15] <newz2000> sure
[20:15] <newz2000> Using content negotiation built into apache, we can create js files named as such: filename.js.de
[20:15] <newz2000> we then link to it like this: <script type="text/javascript" src="filename.js"></script>
[20:16] <newz2000> if a german speaking user loads the file they'll get the js.de version
[20:16] <newz2000> if a user's language isn't represented they'll get a (blank) filename.js
[20:16] <newz2000> so each js file will only need to provide the details for its own language
[20:16] <newz2000> cjohnston: back to you
[20:17] <cjohnston> We will need to create these files, and translate the message to be displayed to the user
[20:18] <cjohnston> Once we get it working, and get the landing pages translated, it will be added to the ubuntu.com website by Canonical
[20:19] <cjohnston> One thing we need to decide on is the URL structure for the landing pages
[20:19] <cjohnston> i.e. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/?/?
[20:19] <alefteris> will the users be able to close this bar once and for all or it will pop up in every page?
[20:20] <cjohnston> alefteris: 1 sec, ill provide you what we want it to look like
[20:20] <cjohnston> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebsiteLocalization/Spec
[20:20] <cjohnston> alefteris: it will just be a little message on the page..
[20:21] <cjohnston> It won't be like a pop-up or anything.. so no reason to be able to close it
[20:22] <cjohnston> newz2000 you had mentioned something to me about the URL structure.. but I don't remember what..
[20:22] <newz2000> Assuming we're uisng the wiki, it could be something like wiki.ubuntu.com/<prefix>/<lang>
[20:23] <alefteris> cjohnston, something like the google chrome bar that comes up for page translation, if you have seen in?
[20:23] <cjohnston> I have not seen what you are referring to..
[20:24] <cjohnston> This will just display some text on the screen with a link... just like the text that is already on the site
[20:25] <alefteris> ok
[20:25] <cjohnston> Does anyone have any suggestions on a URL structure?
[20:26] <adiroiban> cjohnston: is that really important?
[20:26] <adiroiban> :)
[20:26] <cjohnston> well.. it will need to be put into the script
[20:26] <adiroiban> I think that anything will do
[20:26] <newz2000> cjohnston: just pick something I think
[20:26] <cjohnston> okie
[20:26] <alefteris> hping no team uses that naming already
[20:26] <cjohnston> I'm fine with w.u.c./Local/lang
[20:27] <newz2000> looks unused
[20:28] <alefteris> what about the wiki page content?
[20:29] <cjohnston> One other thing that we need to decide, but it may need to be decided by the loco teams/translation teams is if it should be limited to one general page for each language, or if it should be broken down into like en_US and en_GB
[20:29] <cjohnston> alefteris: what about it? we need to create a template and then get the two teams involved in translating and adding resources
[20:31] <alefteris> cjohnston, the kind of content for the page being discused?
[20:31] <alefteris> has been discused*
[20:31] <cjohnston> it will be..
[20:33] <alefteris> team pages that most locos have, won't do because they are not uniform? for example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreekTeam
[20:33] <cjohnston> the team page can be a link from the landing page
[20:34] <cjohnston> but they dont always provide help as much as provide info about the team
[20:34] <adiroiban> cjohnston: at least pt and pt_BR should have separate pages
[20:34] <adiroiban> same for mandarin
[20:35] <cjohnston> newz2000: do you have anything else to discuss?
[20:35] <newz2000> cjohnston: no
[20:36] <cjohnston> Anyone else have anything to discuss at this point?
[20:36]  * newz2000 would like to see a lang or two prototyped soon
[20:36] <cjohnston> yup
[20:37] <cjohnston> Ok.. if noone else has anything, then I think we are done..
[20:37] <cjohnston> for now
[20:39] <cjohnston> Thanks for stopping by to those of you who made it.. I'll be contacting shortly via email about the next steps. :-)
[20:39] <adiroiban> also, for more feedback we can alwasy ask on mailing lists
[20:39] <newz2000> thanks cjohnston
[20:39] <cjohnston> yup
[20:39] <adiroiban> :)
[20:39] <adiroiban> cheers
[21:23] <cjohnston> adiroiban: ping
[21:23] <adiroiban> cjohnston: hi
[21:23] <cjohnston> could you join #ubuntu-website if you have time