[00:00] <rickspencer3> hi bryceh, RAOF, TheMuso
[00:00] <TheMuso> Hey.
[00:00] <rickspencer3> so no robert_ancell?
[00:00] <RAOF> Good morning.
[00:01] <rickspencer3> he's resting on his well-deserved laurels?
[00:01] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, RAOF so I've been waaay to busy to update the wiki for hte meeting today :(
[00:01] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: Thats fine.
[00:01] <rickspencer3> but I can remember the high points
[00:01] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: He is OS
[00:01] <rickspencer3> OS?
[00:01] <rickspencer3> out sick?
[00:01] <TheMuso> Overseas with the OEM guys
[00:01] <RAOF> In Taipai.
[00:01] <rickspencer3> so he's finally beened poisoned by GDM?
[00:02] <rickspencer3> ok, we'll have to carry on without him
[00:02] <rickspencer3> part 1 - partner update
[00:02] <rickspencer3> basically, desktopcouch has been crashiiiiiing
[00:02] <rickspencer3> but looks to be fixed, and kenvandine will upload the fix
[00:02] <rickspencer3> meantime, since the meeting, this uncovered a but in gwibber account set up
[00:02] <TheMuso> I plan to give Gwibber a go today, should I wait?
[00:03] <rickspencer3> but I don't expect it to be too hard
[00:03] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, no, go ahead
[00:03] <TheMuso> ok
[00:03] <rickspencer3> the bug only effects you if you've set it up on one computer, then synch your account settings on another computer, and do a gwibber first run
[00:03] <TheMuso> ah ok.
[00:03] <rickspencer3> so next was Kubuntu
[00:03] <rickspencer3> basically, teh status there is the Kubuntu team is doing awesome'
[00:04] <rickspencer3> then we talked about x
[00:04] <rickspencer3> this was not as fun
[00:04] <rickspencer3> this was 845, 855
[00:04] <rickspencer3> bryceh, do you want to fill TheMuso on this?
[00:05] <TheMuso> I remember seeing bits of that discussion yesterday, so no its fine.
[00:05] <bryceh> sure
[00:06] <bryceh> 8xx has been a problem area for a long time but seems to just get worse and worse... we've been having lots of reports of X freeze issues
[00:06] <bryceh> we've been pulling upstream patches, which seem to address some freezes but not all
[00:06] <bryceh> at this point what we're doing is disabling functionality, starting with kms and dri on select cards
[00:07] <TheMuso> ouch
[00:07] <bryceh> RAOF, care to add anything regarding 8xx?
[00:08] <TheMuso> Quick question out of scope for the meeting, how does one re-enable control + alt + backspace these days?
[00:08] <RAOF> The big fundamental problem seems to be that it's easy to get the CPU and GPU out of sync, so the GPU will try to execute commands that haven't been flushed to memory yet.
[00:09] <bryceh> TheMuso, the keyboard settings capplet has an option for it
[00:09] <RAOF> There's a crazy huge patch upstream which may work, but there have been previous crazy huge patches that seemed to work, so...
[00:09] <TheMuso> bryceh: thanks
[00:10]  * rickspencer3 shudders
[00:10] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:10] <rickspencer3> so then we discuss blueprints
[00:10] <bryceh> RAOF, indeed
[00:11] <bryceh> RAOF, it's very reminiscent of some of the 9xx freezes we had at this point in past releases.
[00:11] <rickspencer3> bryceh, RAOF, would it be worth putting that patch in a PPA for users who choose that route?
[00:11] <rickspencer3> if it turns out to be the right thing, we could consider picking it up for 10.04.1
[00:11] <bryceh> rickspencer3, not a bad idea - RAOF does it look feasible for xorg-edgers?
[00:12] <RAOF> It'd be fine in xorg-edgers.  We'd need to get a working full-kernel build in there, but that shouldn't be too hard.
[00:12] <rickspencer3> ouch
[00:12] <RAOF> Everything requires a kernel patch!
[00:12] <rickspencer3> however, we are explicitly choosing to maximize stability at the expense of some functionality for some users
[00:12] <rickspencer3> and "some" is a non-trivial percentage
[00:13] <rickspencer3> but it's the right call
[00:13] <bryceh> RAOF, actually maybe better to have a separate ppa if it needs a tweaked kernel
[00:13] <rickspencer3> I'd rather the see the "I want my compiz" than the "I lost my data" bugs
[00:13] <RAOF> Or, in extreme cases, “I can't get to gdm”
[00:13] <rickspencer3> :/
[00:13] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:14] <rickspencer3> who owns setting up the patch so that it is installable by users who want it?
[00:14]  * rickspencer3 looks meaningfully at RAOF
[00:15] <RAOF> Yeah.  I'll take that.  I want to get a kernel build in xorg-edgers anyway, for nouveau.  linux-backports-modules-nouveau is getting a little out of sync.
[00:15] <rickspencer3> bryceh, do you think this needs to be done by release time?
[00:15] <rickspencer3> it seems a bit orthagonal to release
[00:16]  * bryceh ponders
[00:17] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:17] <bryceh> rickspencer3, I think it's ok as an SRU in this case
[00:17] <rickspencer3> we can let that run on background thread
[00:17] <rickspencer3> bryceh, I meant, "can RAOF put off working on the PPA a bit while he focuses on the release"
[00:17] <rickspencer3> or do you think we'll need it ready soon?
[00:17] <rickspencer3> I'll let you two decide that though
[00:18] <bryceh> rickspencer3, it's not something that has to be done prior to final freeze
[00:18] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:18] <rickspencer3> so, we also discussed blueprints
[00:18] <bryceh> so raof can schedule at his convenience
[00:18] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, I am afraid this puts you a bit on the spot
[00:19] <rickspencer3> as we discussed x blueprints this morning
[00:19] <TheMuso> Right
[00:19] <rickspencer3> so, seb128 and I put together a bit of a schedule
[00:19] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: The three things I have for maverick, probably all needing blueprints are the following:
[00:19] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/10.10/BlueprintingSchedule
[00:19] <TheMuso> 1) get accessibility and GNOME 3/at-spi2 over dbus working nicely.
[00:20] <TheMuso> 2) replace speech-dispatcher with a recently forked project of speech-dispatcher, called OpenTTS.
[00:20] <TheMuso> 3) add a console screen reader to Ubuntu.
[00:20] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, I like and support those
[00:20] <rickspencer3> but ..
[00:20] <rickspencer3> sound?
[00:20] <rickspencer3> this seems always a hot topic at UDS
[00:20] <TheMuso> Well, out of those, 2 should take the least amount of time
[00:21] <rickspencer3> mmm
[00:21] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, do you need a pulse session?
[00:21] <rickspencer3> or perhaps crimsun will be planning that?
[00:21] <TheMuso> rickspencer3: I don't think so, but others always think we do.
[00:21] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, right
[00:21] <rickspencer3> it seems like "integrate upstream and fix bugs"
[00:22] <rickspencer3> needs minimal discussion
[00:22] <TheMuso> right./
[00:22] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:22] <rickspencer3> RAOF, aside from the blueprints you've registered any questions?
[00:22] <rickspencer3> (as you've not been through this before)
[00:23] <RAOF> I'm going over that blueprint schedule.
[00:23] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:23] <rickspencer3> just let me know if you have any questions
[00:23] <TheMuso> I'll register blueprints today/tomorrow.
[00:23] <rickspencer3> bryceh, I'd appreciate your feedback on the schedule I linked to
[00:23] <RAOF> One blueprint that I haven't registered yet was easy colour calibration/correction.
[00:23] <rickspencer3> RAOF, ack
[00:23] <rickspencer3> that sounds like a good one
[00:24] <rickspencer3> TheMuso, RAOF, bryceh any other business?
[00:24] <TheMuso> no
[00:24] <RAOF> No
[00:25] <rickspencer3> ok
[00:25] <rickspencer3> I'm going offline and heading home
[00:25] <rickspencer3> bbl
[00:25] <rickspencer3> thanks guys!
[00:26] <TheMuso> np
[00:28] <bryceh> thanks
[00:30] <TheMuso> 00/c
[01:57] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, hi
[02:24] <TheMuso> Doe anybody know what signal is given if one kills the desktop with ctrl + alt + backspace, i.e are processes killed with SIGKILL, or something else?
[02:25] <RAOF> I thought the processes died because they lost their X connection rather than being explicitly killed?
[02:26] <TheMuso> RAOF: I don't know. This is why I am wondering.
[02:27]  * RAOF has a spare netbook for answering these sorts of questions.
[02:27] <mclasen> Xlib exits when you loose the X connection
[02:29] <TheMuso> hrm ok.
[03:19] <Sarvatt> TheMuso: SIGHUP
[03:24] <TheMuso> Sarvatt: thanks.
[03:30] <kenvandine> hey rickspencer3
[03:35] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, how goes it?
[03:35] <rickspencer3> seems folks are pretty happy about chad's fix so far
[03:35] <kenvandine> yup :)
[03:35] <rickspencer3> kewl
[03:35] <kenvandine> i am just about to dive into the gwibber bug
[03:35] <rickspencer3> the password one>
[03:35] <rickspencer3> ?
[03:36] <kenvandine> finally got the kids to bed...
[03:36] <kenvandine> yeah
[03:36] <rickspencer3> I'm guessing that won't be too tough
[03:36] <kenvandine> crazy with having to eat out and hotel and all
[03:36] <kenvandine> nah
[03:36] <rickspencer3> seems a run of the mill logic error
[03:36] <kenvandine> it's just weird
[03:36] <rickspencer3> oh, right, your stuck in a hotel because of your floors
[03:36] <kenvandine> yeah...
[03:36] <rickspencer3> that bites
[03:36] <rickspencer3> likey bitey mcbites
[03:36] <kenvandine> i had saw dust in my beard!
[03:37] <kenvandine> and my door was closed :)
[03:37] <rickspencer3> lol
[03:37] <kenvandine> our house is going to be a real mess
[03:37] <rickspencer3> we've beent through the floors thing a couple of times
[03:37] <rickspencer3> you'll be happy when it's done
[03:37] <kenvandine> yeah
[03:37] <kenvandine> it looks awesome
[03:37] <kenvandine> first coat of stain is down, saw it tonight
[03:37] <kenvandine> we can go back home tomorrow night
[03:38] <kenvandine> and move furniture back in on saturday
[03:38] <rickspencer3> it's going to stink! (if our experience is any guide)
[03:38] <kenvandine> yeah
[03:38] <kenvandine> i am sure
[03:38] <rickspencer3> tonight I shall dive a bit into map/reduce, I think
[03:38] <rickspencer3> read up on it a bunch last night
[03:38] <kenvandine> awesome
[03:38] <rickspencer3> I think desktopcouch needs an async api
[03:39] <rickspencer3> when I do stuff with the gwibber database, it can really lag
[03:39]  * TheMuso is not a fan of renovations either. I feel your pain.
[03:39] <rickspencer3> good luck on the gwibber password thing kenvandine!
[03:40] <rickspencer3> ttyt
[03:40] <bcurtiswx> nite rickspencer3
[03:40] <RAOF> 'night.
[03:40] <kenvandine> banshee's support for my android is soooo much nicer than rhythmbox
[03:40] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, are you staying up to keep an eye on kenvandine, make sure he fixes your bug?
[03:40] <kenvandine> :)
[03:41] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, you should show us at UDS
[03:41] <bcurtiswx> rickspencer3: umm.. yes... it just helps prove i have no life :P
[03:41] <rickspencer3> we can make RB better too
[03:41] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, ;)
[03:41] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, do you know python?
[03:41] <bcurtiswx> i want to....
[03:41] <rickspencer3> kewl
[03:41] <rickspencer3> do it
[03:42] <rickspencer3> if you learned you could fix bugs yourself, and make things work the way you want them to
[03:42] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, the difference in the user experience syncing music and stuff to my G1 between banshee and rhythmbox is like comparing a bmw to a pinto
[03:42] <bcurtiswx> any good beginners guides (other than dive right in)
[03:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, you fanboy!
[03:42] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, yes!
[03:42] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i haven't really used banshee in a good six months :)
[03:42] <rickspencer3> there is a really good mit class on it
[03:42]  * rickspencer3 looks
[03:42] <kenvandine> but i installed it again to test the u1music store in it
[03:42] <bcurtiswx> im close enough to ken, i'll give him a good slap across the face, or punch in the shoulder next time i make it to NC
[03:43] <kenvandine> hehe
[03:43] <kenvandine> bcurtiswx, where are you?
[03:43] <bcurtiswx> Northern VA
[03:43] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, http://academicearth.org/courses/introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming
[03:43] <kenvandine> cool
[03:43] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, I lived in Alexandria, VA for basically the 90s
[03:43] <kenvandine> bcurtiswx, near DC?
[03:43] <rickspencer3> up until 1998
[03:44] <bcurtiswx> kenvandine: yes, DC LoCo member with Crimsun and Maco
[03:44] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, I would start on that class I linked you to
[03:44] <kenvandine> awesome
[03:44] <rickspencer3> then when you get board with that ...
[03:44] <rickspencer3> start with quickly
[03:44] <rickspencer3> and join #ubuntu-app-devel
[03:44] <rickspencer3> and start writing an app
[03:44] <bcurtiswx> rickspencer3: when i get free time i will def
[03:44] <bcurtiswx> its bookmarked
[03:44] <rickspencer3> :)
[03:44]  * rickspencer3 wants everyone to know python :_
[03:45] <crimsun> well, it beats ARMv7 asm, that's for sure.
[03:45]  * kenvandine wishes we had a test suite for gwibber :/
[03:45] <RAOF> Python is *so* much more fun with a test suite.
[03:45] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, UDS session?
[03:46] <rickspencer3> seems something we could crowd source
[03:46] <kenvandine> yeah... perhaps
[03:46] <bcurtiswx> not until a UDS in which Canonical will pay for me to attend ;-)
[03:46] <rickspencer3> crimsun, lol
[03:46] <kenvandine> i was thinking about creating the test suite first and then crowd sourcing test writing :)
[03:46] <rickspencer3> bcurtiswx, you can attend remotely
[03:46] <rickspencer3> yeah
[03:46] <bcurtiswx> rickspencer3: yup, i randomly skip work at times to see a few
[03:46] <rickspencer3> like get 10 people to write 10 tests a piece
[03:46] <kenvandine> never written a test suite from scratch, just written tests
[03:47] <kenvandine> so it will be fun
[03:47] <rickspencer3> one key thing I have found is to never fix a bug without writing a test first
[03:47] <kenvandine> yup
[03:47] <kenvandine> so at $JOB - 1 that was the culture
[03:47] <rickspencer3> of course, I often ignore my own good advice ;)
[03:47] <kenvandine> no bug ever got fixed until the test was in the test suite
[03:47] <rickspencer3> yeah
[03:48] <rickspencer3> but if there is no test suite, it's tempting to keep fixing bugs
[03:48] <kenvandine> and often we created tests for new features and developed to the test
[03:48] <kenvandine> yeah :)
[03:48] <rickspencer3> so we'll put the breaks on that for gwibber in Maverick
[03:48] <kenvandine> rpath has an awesome test driven development culture
[03:48] <rickspencer3> the nice thing about test first is that it gives you a strong sense of progress
[03:48] <rickspencer3> I made n tests work today
[03:48] <kenvandine> yup
[03:49] <kenvandine> and writing the test helps flush out the feature
[03:49] <kenvandine> sometimes... sometimes it is just lots of spinning wheels
[03:49]  * rickspencer3 nods
[03:49] <kenvandine> but for bug fixing for sure...
[03:49] <rickspencer3> yeah, or sometimes it's *really* hard to write an automated test
[03:50] <rickspencer3> like testing async code that requires UI and such
[03:50] <kenvandine> i fear that will be the case for a bunch of gwibber stuff
[03:50] <kenvandine> like we will need to mock out the services, facebook, etc
[03:50] <rickspencer3> well, I have a bit of experience with pygtk
[03:50] <rickspencer3> I wrote some tests for quidgets
[03:50] <rickspencer3> and they helped a lot
[03:50] <kenvandine> good
[03:50] <rickspencer3> and for non-trivial bugs I add a test before I fix them
[03:50] <rickspencer3> but the coverage is spotty at best
[03:51] <kenvandine> i'll look at what you did there
[03:51] <rickspencer3> so good UDS session
[03:51] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, well, it's a lot of inspecting the treeview model
[03:51] <rickspencer3> and I haven't done any for filters
[03:52] <rickspencer3> just because it's too tedious to write the test code to select them and such
[03:52] <rickspencer3> but I shouldn't be so lazy ;)
[03:52] <rickspencer3> 'night guys!
[05:57] <pitti> Good morning
[06:01] <TheMuso> Morning pitti.
[06:48] <TheMuso> pitti: re at-spi again, a few weeks ago you suggested I add a sleep call after root window properties were set. Here is the boot chart after doing so. http://www.themuso.id.au/bootchart/strigy-lucid-20100414-1.png
[06:49] <pitti> TheMuso: can you please remind me again what the problem was?
[06:50] <pitti> TheMuso: hm, that is a 0-byte file
[06:50] <TheMuso> hrm ok hang on
[06:50] <TheMuso> pitti: the at-spi race condition. Sometimes panel/applets/desktop are not accessible. I can't reproduce it in the desktop, but other people can.
[06:53] <pitti> TheMuso: does it reproduce with the sleep call?
[06:55] <TheMuso> pitti: Since I can't reproduce myself, I need to get others to test that. Getting the package ready for PPA now, but I wanted to give you the boot chart, as you wanted to see whether the sleep call would affect much.
[06:56] <TheMuso> pitti: Ok here it is on another host: Seems the other one is not doing well with scp. http://packages.themuso.com/strigy-lucid-20100414-1.png
[06:59] <pitti> TheMuso: hm, that just gets to gdm, it's not autologin
[06:59] <pitti> TheMuso: it seems at-spi does't run in the gdm session?
[06:59] <pitti> I can't find at-spi at all on that chart
[07:00] <TheMuso> pitti: Right, at-spi only runs if accessible login is enabled. Hold on, I'll enable autologin and get another one.
[07:00] <pitti> TheMuso: so what I meant is, with introducing that sleep, this should reproduce the race condition much easier; did that work? I. e. is it broken with the sleep now/
[07:00] <pitti> ?
[07:00] <TheMuso> pitti: not for me
[07:01] <pitti> TheMuso: so, ideally we would see an at-spi process which hangs for some seconds (the sleep), and nothing else would start in parallel
[07:01] <TheMuso> right
[07:01] <pitti> TheMuso: ok, let's get the autologin boot chart
[07:02] <TheMuso> ok brb
[07:06] <TheMuso> pitti: http://packages.themuso.com/strigy-lucid-20100414-1.png
[07:07] <pitti> TheMuso: ah, splendid
[07:07] <pitti> TheMuso: you did a 3 s sleep?
[07:08] <pitti> TheMuso: so, it seems most programs indeed block on at-spi to start up, except for pulseaudio and gnome-settings-daemon
[07:08] <pitti> TheMuso: I suppose PA is alright to start in parallel, since it doesn't have UI
[07:09] <TheMuso> pitti: right, yes it was a 3 second sleep.
[07:09] <pitti> TheMuso: I'm not sure about g-s-d; it doesn't have UI of its own either, but it certainly controls how other programs look (loading themes, etc); I'm afraid I don't know enough about SPI to tell whether g-s-d needs it, do you?
[07:10] <TheMuso> pitti: No I don't. Afaik GTK just loads the a11y modules if it sees the at-spi properties on the root window.
[07:10] <pitti> TheMuso: right, that would mean that each program needs to load SPI individually, right?
[07:10] <pitti> TheMuso: so, this chart looks fine to me
[07:11] <TheMuso> pitti: hrm ok
[07:11] <TheMuso> pitti: Each app using GTK would need to load a11y modules, if thats what you are getting at.
[07:11] <pitti> TheMuso: so it's working fine for you even with the sleep?
[07:11] <TheMuso> pitti: yes.
[07:11] <TheMuso> This is a fast box though.
[07:12] <pitti> TheMuso: faster boxes should be more likely to reproduce this, though
[07:12] <TheMuso> This is true.
[07:12] <pitti> TheMuso: so, if you have people who can reproduce this problem, I'd recommend the following:
[07:12] <pitti> 1) ask them to install your version with the sleep, and do a boot chart
[07:13] <TheMuso> pitti: Can do.
[07:13] <pitti> TheMuso: hm, I think only 1) for now; I need to see their charts to see what's starting prematurely, I think
[07:13] <pitti> TheMuso: just subscribe me to the bug, then I can reply directly, and you don't need to play the middle man :)
[07:13] <TheMuso> pitti: Ok, not sure if the person in question is still online, but I'll get my package into a PA and point them at it.
[07:14] <pitti> TheMuso: thanks!
[07:14] <TheMuso> ok will do once the package is ready.
[07:14] <pitti> TheMuso: for them, spi was broken on all apps, or just on some parts (like the panel)?
[07:14] <TheMuso> pitti: Just some parts.
[07:15] <pitti> TheMuso: oh, another interesting question for them: killall gnome-settings-daemon, alt+f2 gnome-settings-daemon (to restart it)
[07:15] <pitti> TheMuso: just in case g-s-d is involved into this after all
[07:15] <pitti> since neither of us seems to be sure about it
[07:16] <TheMuso> pitti: Right, will ask the above, point them to the package, and subscribe you, thanks for your help.
[07:16] <pitti> my pleasure, good luck!
[07:16] <TheMuso> thanks
[07:39] <TheMuso> pitti: heh I just rebooted, and with the at-spi version I built with the sleep call, I now have a desktop/panel that is inaccessible.
[07:40] <pitti> TheMuso: oh! did you get another boot chart?
[07:41] <TheMuso> hang on
[07:42] <TheMuso> meh, I removed it, thinking it wouldn't be needed. I'll grab again, and run. Whats the bet it will work properly. :S
[07:42] <baptistemm> good moorning
[07:43] <pitti> TheMuso: it will not ever fail as long as it's watched
[07:43] <TheMuso> heh
[07:43] <pitti> it's a fundamental principle of quantum physics
[07:49] <Keybuk> ah yes, heisenberg's *certainty* principle
[07:50] <Keybuk> it's like those days when life just goes great, and everything works out for you - you know a creator's running a debugger
[07:51] <pitti> heh
[07:56] <TheMuso> pitti: Ok new boot chart, and yes my desktop is inaccessible, as well as panel. http://packages.themuso.com/strigy-lucid-20100414-1.png
[07:59] <pitti> TheMuso: hm, I don't see an obvious difference to the previous one; does restarting g-s-d make any difference at all?
[07:59] <pitti> TheMuso: and can you check with xprop -root whether you have the property set?
[08:00] <pitti> TheMuso: (feel free to pastebin xprop -root, I can have a look)
[08:06] <TheMuso> pitti: ok just a sec, got caught up with something.
[08:07] <TheMuso> pitti: gsd makes no difference.
[08:09] <TheMuso> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/414127/
[08:12] <pitti> TheMuso: ok, there's AT_SPI_IOR, so the property seems to be set
[08:13] <TheMuso> yep
[08:14] <pitti> TheMuso: are newly started apps accessible?
[08:14] <TheMuso> pitti: Yes.
[08:14] <pitti> TheMuso: i. e. is this restricted to things like panel and/or nautilus?
[08:14] <TheMuso> Otherwise I wouldn't be talking with you now.
[08:14] <pitti> does restarting gnome-panel or nautilus help?
[08:15] <TheMuso> pitti: yes it helps
[08:15] <TheMuso> Once the apps restart, they see the accessibility property, and work normally.
[08:15] <pitti> TheMuso: so, panel/nautilus/etc. start immediately after the sleep(3) in at-spi-registry
[08:16] <pitti> TheMuso: this sounds like a-s-r needs some more initialization before it actually works?
[08:16] <pitti> TheMuso: i. e. it seems it registers to the session a tad too early?
[08:16] <TheMuso> pitti: I don't know to be honest.
[08:17] <pitti> TheMuso: I suspect the sleep helped to move the startup of panel etc. to a time where there is zero CPU activity, so their startup is much faster
[08:17] <pitti> which helps to trigger the race
[08:17] <TheMuso> Right
[08:18] <pitti> when a-s-r starts, there's still CPU activity from X, pulse, and IO from g-session
[08:19] <TheMuso> ok
[08:21] <pitti> TheMuso: hm, registry-main.c calls register_client() as the second-last thing before bonobo_main()
[08:21] <pitti> this looks alright..
[08:22] <mvo> hey ccheney. do you have a estimate when a new OOo with the workaround for bug #556348 is uploaded?
[08:23] <TheMuso> pitti: I put my sleep call after registry_set_ior
[08:24] <pitti> TheMuso: seems right
[08:24] <didrocks> good morning
[08:24] <pitti> ah, back in a bit
[08:24] <didrocks> see you pitti ;)
[08:47] <seb128> hello
[08:47] <didrocks> hey seb128, how are you?
[08:48] <seb128> hey didrocks, good! how are you?
[08:48] <didrocks> I'm fine, thanks. I realized that I took the habits to sleep 9h a night now… That never happened to me before, that's bad…
[08:49] <seb128> that's good
[08:49] <seb128> I like to sleep 9h ;-)
[08:49] <seb128> I manage to do that only during weekends though
[08:49] <mvo> I would like to sleep 9h (or more)
[08:50] <mvo> but usually it does not work out :/
[08:50] <JamieBennett> I'm trying to get webservice-office-zoho to startup-notify because on slow hardware there is lag launching the browser. I changed StartupNotify to true in the .desktop file and nothing happened, has the parameter changed?
[08:50] <mvo> fortunately tea helps in the morning
[08:51] <pitti> bonjour didrocks, seb128
[08:51] <didrocks> hey pitti
[08:51] <seb128> hey mvo, hey didrocks
[08:51] <didrocks> seb128: well,, that's good, but you lost one hour to do other things like interesting reading ;)
[08:52] <seb128> JamieBennett, nothing changed recently that I know about no
[08:52] <seb128> mvo, tea addict!
[08:52] <seb128> ;-)
[08:52] <JamieBennett> seb128: Umm, not sure why I'm not seeing any notifications then.
[08:52]  * JamieBennett goes to investigate
[08:52] <pitti> didrocks: I never set an alarm clock; I just sleep until I wake up, which I find best
[08:53] <mvo> seb128: :P
[08:53] <pitti> which is usually 8 to 8:30 hours after I go to bed, unless I go to sleep very late
[08:53] <pitti> today I woke up at 6:30..
[08:53] <seb128> pitti, that doesn't work for me, I would wake up at 11am every day ;-)
[08:53] <didrocks> pitti: this is what I do too. But normally, I only sleep 7h40-8h… now it's more close to 9h, wasting time :)
[08:53] <didrocks> seb128: don't go to bed so late :-)
[08:54] <pitti> didrocks: don't worry about it; cats sleep 15 hours a day and are perfectly happy :)
[08:54] <didrocks> :)
[08:54] <seb128> slomo, hi
[08:54] <slomo> seb128: hi
[08:54] <pitti> TheMuso: so, I can't see something obvious in the code :(
[08:54] <pitti> TheMuso: obviously wrong, I mean
[08:54] <seb128> slomo, could you try if your updated vinagre crash when selecting a ssh gateway for vnc?
[08:55] <pitti> TheMuso: it might be that the XChangeProperty() call is not synchronous somehow, though
[08:56] <seb128> slomo, run vinagre, click connect, type a random host, click the checkbox at the bottom "use host <...> as a ssh tunnel", type a random host and connect
[08:56] <seb128> slomo, those don't need to be working vnc or ssh boxes
[08:57] <pitti> TheMuso: the only thing that still comes to my mind is to add an XSync (spi_get_display(), False); after the XChangeProperty()
[08:58] <slomo> yes, crashes
[08:58] <slomo> vinagre: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/vinagre-1/plugins/libvnc.so: undefined symbol: vinagre_ssh_connect
[08:58] <slomo> wonderful :)
[08:59] <slomo_> seb128: yes, crashes, symbol lookup error
[08:59] <slomo_> is there a known fix already? :)
[09:00] <seb128> slomo_, no, that's a known issue on Ubuntu too I was just wondering if it was happening on debian or if that was a toolchain issue on lucid
[09:00] <seb128> slomo_, thanks for testing
[09:02] <slomo_> well, should be easy to fix :)
[09:03] <slomo_> let's take a look
[09:07] <slomo_> seb128: is there an upstream bugreport?
[09:08] <mvo> hey slomo_, nice to see you
[09:08] <slomo_> hi mvo
[09:08] <seb128> slomo_, not that I know about, I wanted to verify it's not ubuntu specific before opening one
[09:11] <slomo_> seb128: hm, problem seems to be that libtool or ld is too intelligent :) if you do the same from the applet it should work
[09:12] <seb128> slomo_, right, the symbol is defined in the applet binary
[09:12] <seb128> slomo_, I'm not sure what the right change would be though
[09:12] <slomo_> seb128: there's a libvinagre.a which contains the ssh functions and this is used for linking the main binary... and then the main binary doesn't have the ssh functions anymore (probably because they're not used)
[09:13] <slomo_> for the applet that library is not used... i would've imagined that -Wl,-export-dynamic would make sure that everything from static libraries is exported too
[09:13] <slomo_> but no idea what the right fix would be, maybe get rid of libvinagre as it's only used for the main program anyway
[09:16] <huats> morning
[09:19] <seb128> robert_ancell, hey
[09:20] <seb128> lut huats
[09:21] <huats> hello seb128 !
[09:21] <robert_ancell> seb128, hey - you been telling people to drop my LPI patches!? :P
[09:23] <seb128> robert_ancell, no, I said to keep it for lucid and maybe discuss dropping it during the unstable cycle to avoid extra work if needed
[09:23] <seb128> seems Laney interpreted that as he wanted
[09:23] <robert_ancell> seb128, yeah, I think so...
[09:24] <seb128> robert_ancell, you should register a blueprint for this libupstreamurl next cycle ;-)
[09:24] <seb128> or whatever you want to call this lpi done in a vendor neutral way
[09:24] <robert_ancell> seb128, it's on my list (literally on the notebook sitting beside me)
[09:24] <seb128> good ;-)
[09:25] <robert_ancell> I'm thinking GUpstream (glib patch) and GtkUpstream (GTK+ patch)
[09:26] <seb128> "Upstream" doesn't really make sense in upstream code does it? ;-)
[09:26] <Laney> I interpreted it as "it's not critiical to keep if it's the only Ubuntu patch"
[09:27] <seb128> Laney, right, and I added a "since it's there in lucid and a win and no effort to keep it I would keep it for the lts"
[09:27] <seb128> Laney, dropping it now just for the sake of dropping it doesn't make sense either
[09:27] <Laney> it wasn't just for the sake of it
[09:27] <Laney> there was a new upstream release :)
[09:28] <seb128> well updating it once for this version and having the entries in the lts is a worth effort spending
[09:28] <didrocks> hey robert_ancell
[09:28] <robert_ancell> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-libupstream
[09:28] <Laney> sure I understand what you're saying now
[09:29] <robert_ancell> didrocks, hey
[09:29] <Laney> but it's not like I dropped it for no reason either
[09:29] <robert_ancell> Laney, and it was fairly trivial to update :)
[09:29] <seb128> Laney, ok, let's say it was a misunderstanding, we will need to figure what to do with those if you care about being able to sync directly ;-)
[09:30] <akgraner> Good Morning :-) How do I get the main Ubuntu menu back on my panel? Places systems etc?
[09:31] <seb128> akgraner, hi, right click, add to panel, select it in the list, double click or dnd?
[09:32] <seb128> slomo_, is orc in schroedinger bringing something visible to users?
[09:32] <seb128> doh
[09:32] <akgraner> seb128, I don't see that in the list
[09:33] <akgraner> I added everything but that back that I could find
[09:33] <seb128> akgraner, it's one entry with the ubuntu logo
[09:33] <seb128> akgraner, it's called menubar or similar
[09:33] <seb128> (not using english there so I don't have the exact wording)
[09:34] <akgraner> oh I have that then how do I get systems and places back on the panel
[09:34] <seb128> ?
[09:34] <seb128> you picked the wrong one if you only have one icon
[09:34] <seb128> yes it's confusing
[09:34] <seb128> there are 2 of those
[09:34] <seb128> one is the one icon menu
[09:34] <seb128> and one is the 3 labels one
[09:34]  * akgraner looks thanks :-)
[09:36] <TheMuso> pitti: I can certainly try that, however that is for tomorrow.
[09:36] <seb128> slomo_, hey again
[09:37] <akgraner> alrighty got it back  - thanks :-)  but my panel keeps getting messed up when I suspend ? double icons, and some things like the nm just disappear
[09:37] <slomo_> seb128: hi, my network connection is a bit unreliable :)
[09:37] <seb128> akgraner, there is a known bug about it, I get every now and then, weird that you get it so often
[09:38] <seb128> slomo_, would building shroedinger without orc have any visible effect in normal user situations?
[09:38] <seb128> slomo_, I synced the new version but it moved from liboil to liborc which is universe
[09:39] <seb128> slomo_, I'm pondering building without it or downgrading to previous version or trying to get liborc in main but I would prefer to avoid this one since it's late for lucid
[09:39] <akgraner> ahh ok  - thanks :-)
[09:39] <slomo_> seb128: yes, without orc schroedinger is insanely slow ;)
[09:40] <seb128> slomo_, when is shroedinger being used?
[09:40] <pitti> hah! gotcha, gvfs
[09:40] <seb128> on any commonly use formats playing or just for some codecs?
[09:40] <seb128> pitti, the eject blank CD one?
[09:40] <pitti> yes
[09:40] <seb128> pitti, \o/
[09:40] <slomo_> seb128: just for dirac (but iirc you can get dirac videos from the bbc iplayer)
[09:40] <JamieBennett> Regarding the StartupNotify entry in the .desktop file, I presume the .desktop file is only used when you click on the menu icon, not when you 'open with' or launch the app as an associated launcher?
[09:41] <seb128> JamieBennett, it's possible yes
[09:41] <seb128> JamieBennett, hum no, I get the spinning cursor when opening a pdf for example
[09:42] <slomo_> seb128: imho you can move it to universe
[09:43] <seb128> pitti, ok, I did a small screwup by syncing the new schroedinger when sabdfl pinged about it yesterday
[09:43] <seb128> slomo_, no, libavcodec52 depends on it
[09:43] <JamieBennett> seb128: Ah OK, I'll look further.
[09:43] <pitti> seb128: and it changes ABI/API all over the place and breaks everything?
[09:43] <seb128> pitti, no, it moved from using liboil to liborc
[09:43] <slomo_> seb128: oh, well, then you need orc in main ;) which might not be a good idea because it's quite new
[09:44] <seb128> pitti, and I didn't notice orc was in universe and schroedinger not
[09:44] <seb128> pitti, schroedinger is just used by libavcodec52 right now and only for diract videos
[09:45] <seb128> pitti, I was pondering asking you what you think about maybe promoting orc but slomo seems to say it's not a good idea
[09:45] <seb128> pitti, I will 1.0.9.is.1.0.8 it
[09:45] <pitti> seb128: it's not just a configure option?
[09:45] <seb128> pitti, sorry for the noise
[09:45] <pitti> i. e. we can't build 1.0.9 against liboil?
[09:45] <seb128> pitti, they dropped oil support in favor of orc
[09:45] <pitti> ok
[09:46] <seb128> no, they cleaned the oil build option which imho is stupid
[09:46] <slomo_> seb128, pitti: well, orc is a jit compiler and reviewing that for main inclusion might take some time... also orc 0.5 (which is incompatible with current 0.4) will be released in the near future
[09:46] <seb128> they claim orc is experimental and off by default
[09:46] <pitti> right, also liboil has many more rdepends
[09:46] <seb128> build without orc is too slow to be usable
[09:46] <seb128> and they dropped oil support
[09:46] <pitti> so let's keep 1.0.8, right
[09:46] <seb128> dropping oil support is just a stupid think to do in this case, *shrug*
[09:47] <seb128> pitti, ok, my conclusion too, thanks
[09:49] <slomo_> seb128: well, with orc schro is up to 3x faster than with liboil... and liboil is not maintained anymore and will probably be go away soon ;)
[09:50] <seb128> slomo_, so we have choice between slow code, decent speed with a known lib but not maintained or good speed with a new lib not really tested and which will break abi
[09:50] <seb128> slomo_, ie all 3 options somewhat suck ;-)
[09:51] <seb128> slomo_, let's stay on liboil for lucid, it's used by other things too anyway
[09:52] <slomo_> yes, that's probably the best solution
[09:52] <slomo_> gstreamer will use liboil until 0.12/1.0 too probably
[09:54] <seb128> slomo_, thanks
[09:54] <huats> Does anyone know why after upgrading from karmic -> lucid I have lost evolution in the menu ?
[09:54] <seb128> huats, it's in the office menu
[09:55] <seb128> huats, we got ride of the duplicate entries
[09:55] <huats> hum indeed
[09:55] <huats> I have seen that just after
[09:55] <huats> seb128, thanks
[09:55] <seb128> you're welcome
[10:05] <seb128> re
[10:05] <seb128> pitti, when do you think we should upload the lpi change to drop the report a bug entry?
[10:09] <pitti> re
[10:10] <pitti> sorry, phone doesn't stand still today :)
[10:10] <pitti> seb128: hm, what's your feeling?
[10:10] <pitti> I thought in about a week perhaps
[10:11] <pitti> it should be in the RC
[10:11] <pitti> seb128: but feel free to upload it earlier if you prefer
[10:11] <pitti> I have no strong opinion about it
[10:11] <seb128> pitti, no, I'm fine doing it early next week
[10:12] <seb128> pitti, I was just checking with you that after freeze is still ok
[10:22] <pitti> argh, 3 minutes after I upload gvfs the patch got ack'ed upstream; but oh well, no big deal
[10:23]  * Ng wonders who he should offer belgian beer to in return for fixing two bash_completion bugs that make his team very sad :D
[10:24] <pitti> WE ARE UNBRIBA.. wait, beer?
[10:26] <chrisccoulson> hey pitti
[10:26] <chrisccoulson> how are you today?
[10:26] <seb128> hey chrisccoulson
[10:26] <chrisccoulson> hey seb128
[10:27]  * chrisccoulson has just realised he hasn't updated his machine for nearly a week
[10:29] <didrocks> hey chrisccoulson
[10:30] <Ng> if I want to propose two debdiffs for a package, should I make each from a pristine package and defer merging horror for someone else? or is there a preferred etiquette for this sort of thing?
[10:31] <james_w> bzr!
[10:31] <Ng> james_w: oh, I forgot about that, I'm being all old-and-busted with my debdiff ideas, aren't I ;)
[10:32] <james_w> Ng: if you think they are sound then stick them in the same branch, if one or both is likely to be contentious then you can put them in two branches
[10:32] <pitti> chrisccoulson: hey, how are you? I'm great, thanks! spend half of my morning on the phone, though :)
[10:32] <james_w> with no merging horror!
[10:32] <Ng> james_w: say, you subscribe to bugmail for bash-completion.... :D
[10:32] <james_w> correct
[10:32] <chrisccoulson> hey didrocks
[10:32] <james_w> I also sponsor things from bzr ;-)
[10:32] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, i'm good thanks. i had quite an early night last night for a change :)
[10:32] <Ng> james_w: I would like to apply two patches to lucid's bash-completion so I and my team can actually do our work without locally patching it ;)
[10:32] <didrocks> pitti: it seems to me that the guest session doesn't use the DefaultSession stuff and only logs you in GNOME. I can have a look. This is in the indicator session package?
[10:32] <pitti> seb128: just reviewed gdu, there's nothing earth shattering in trunk, so I won't do a git snapshot
[10:32] <didrocks> good morning james_w
[10:33] <pitti> hey james_w
[10:33] <seb128> pitti, ok
[10:33] <pitti> seb128: gvfs was useful, though, fixes another LP bug
[10:33] <james_w> good morning everyone
[10:33] <seb128> hey james_w
[10:33] <james_w> sorry about the pm-utils noise pittit
[10:34] <pitti> didrocks: no, there's a separate source, gdm-guest-session
[10:34] <seb128> pitti, quite some good changes in gvfs, it fixes a ftp issue too that you didn't close in the changelog
[10:34] <didrocks> pitti: ok, looking at that, thanks :)
[10:34] <pitti> james_w: no problem at all; I know that it's too easy to mix it up, our multitude of on_ac_power scripts is weird
[10:35] <pitti> seb128: oh, oops; I could have improved my bug stats even more :)
[10:35] <seb128> pitti, yeah, it's going to be tight to catch up with me for lucid :p
[10:35] <pitti> s/tight/impossible/
[10:35] <pitti> I'm running at full steam, but it's not fast enough
[10:35]  * pitti hugs seb128
[10:36]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[10:36] <seb128> pitti, there was also the ipad bug task you could have closed
[10:36] <seb128> pitti, you missed 2 easy points there :p
[10:36] <pitti> I just checked the upstream bugs, there was no LP reference :/
[10:36] <pitti> seb128: are you closing them now, or shall I look up the bugs?
[10:37] <seb128> pitti, I just did
[10:37] <pitti> merci
[10:37] <seb128> pitti, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/gnome-bugs/614401
[10:37] <seb128> I've https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/gnome-bugs/%s as alias there
[10:37] <pitti> ooh
[10:38] <seb128> it's handy
[10:38] <seb128> I also have a crappy piece of python collecting bug numbers in a changelog
[10:38] <seb128> and calling firefox  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/gnome-bugs/%s on the list
[10:38] <seb128> I should clean and share that ;-)
[10:40]  * didrocks does the same here after seeing seb128 using it "gb xxx" (for "gnome bug" #…). How did I live without it? :)
[10:44] <pitti> seb128: thanks, added to my quick searches now
[10:48] <Ng> james_w: lp:~cmsj/ubuntu/lucid/bash-completion/team-is-fixes/ linked to bug #483499 and bug #510591 for consideration, if you have the time :)
[10:50] <Ng> 483499 is unequivocably a bug and the fix works. 510591 is just very frustrating on large networks, but is denying a cute feature to people on small networks so may be somewhat controversial.
[10:54] <didrocks> any idea why I'm not on that page (http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-fixes-report.html) but only on that one (http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/lucid-fixes-report.html)?
[10:55] <mvo> james_w: just fyi (because we talked about it in the past). http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/auto-install-tester/ is a automatic tester if pkgs can be installed/removed cleanly, no further checks (yet :)
[10:55]  * mvo is off to lunch now
[10:56] <james_w> \o/
[10:56] <james_w> thanks mvo
[10:56] <james_w> mvo: using skewed archives?
[10:56] <seb128> didrocks, no idea
[10:56] <james_w> (go for lunch)
[10:57] <didrocks> seb128: not a big deal in any case. I was just surprised looking at the first link and beginning to wonder what do I do during my days :)
[10:57] <seb128> I didn't even know about this by team version
[10:58] <didrocks> even for you or pitti the numbers aren't actually the same. There must be black magic somewhere :)
[10:58] <seb128> or it has been updated today and the other one not yet
[10:59] <pitti> didrocks: perhaps the team members need updating
[10:59] <pitti> in their scripts
[10:59] <pitti> I suppose they don't update them with every page update
[11:00] <didrocks> pitti: they added chrisccoulson and RAOF, but maybe they didn't see me, I'll see with them at UDS. Not very important…
[11:00] <pitti> hm, but RAOF joined much later, and he's on there
[11:00] <didrocks> do you something to tell me about my employment? :-)
[11:01] <didrocks> have*
[11:01] <seb128> didrocks, did you get paid since you work there? ;-)
[11:01] <didrocks> seb128: I guess I have to check again :-)
[11:03] <pitti> didrocks: just ping bdmurray about it; I guess it's trivial to fix
[11:03] <didrocks> pitti: sure, will do, thanks :)
[11:04] <chrisccoulson> didrocks - you're not fixing any bugs?
[11:04] <chrisccoulson> :P
[11:04] <seb128> didrocks, slacker!
[11:04] <chrisccoulson> lol
[11:04] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/lucid-fixes-report.html seems to tell something else :)
[11:04] <chrisccoulson> saying that, i've got a lot of catching up to do to reach seb128's level
[11:05] <didrocks> seb128: to be honest, I was thinking you will tell that first :)
[11:05] <seb128> :-p
[11:07] <chrisccoulson> oh, i'm not doing too bad i suppose. if you add the contributions from both e-mail addresses, then i'm just above slangasek
[11:08] <seb128> chrisccoulson, your community you is beating your canonical you though ;-)
[11:09] <chrisccoulson> heh, i'd best start working a bit more then ;)
[11:09] <seb128> ;-)
[11:48] <james_w> Ng: if you "Propose for merging" then I get mail and it goes on the web page
[11:48] <james_w> I'm looking at it now anyway
[11:48] <Ng> doh
[11:49] <seb128> Ng, don't assume it's true for most packages though ;-)
[11:49] <Ng> I need to read up on the new hotness for ubuntu branches
[11:49] <Ng> heh
[11:49] <seb128> dunno where those requests go usually but I know I don't receive them for desktop packages so better to still open a bug asking for sponsoring
[11:49] <james_w> seb128: no, *I* get mail :-)
[11:50] <seb128> james_w, I see ;-)
[11:50] <Ng> james_w: would you still like the proposal, for completeness?
[11:50] <seb128> it might be a good thing if you can handle sponsoring for everything you receive :p
[11:50] <james_w> seb128: we can subscribe a desktop team to appropriate branches to get you receiving mails if you like
[11:50] <james_w> seb128: I currently explicitly farm out those I can't handle
[11:51] <seb128> james_w, I need to think about what that implies before saying yes there ;-)
[11:54] <james_w> right
[12:01] <james_w> Ng: could you try these three patches? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=541423#c5
[12:05] <seb128> tseliot, hey
[12:05] <tseliot> hi seb128
[12:05] <seb128> tseliot, one of the nvidia guys said he found the issue on the gdm lock bug ;-)
[12:05] <seb128> tseliot, thanks for pinging them there!
[12:06] <tseliot> seb128: np, they are the only people who can fix that ;)
[12:06] <seb128> hehe, yeah, but good to know that we can raise issues and have them to look at those
[12:07] <seb128> rather than just waiting on maybe to have the issue fixed by luck in some update one day
[12:07] <seb128> tseliot, not sure how busy you are and if you read bugmails too but did you see the comments on this touchpad configuration bug?
[12:07] <Ng> james_w: sure
[12:07] <seb128> tseliot, the one about having 2 finger click action changes since karmic
[12:07] <tseliot> seb128: yes, I've been doing this with both amd and nvidia for a while now. If you have issues, just report them to me and I'll talk to upstream
[12:07] <seb128> tseliot, noted, thanks
[12:08] <james_w> Ng: I'd rather move in the direction upstream has gone for that one, as they seem to be playing whack-a-mole with regressions
[12:08] <mvo> chrisccoulson: do you have a idea if bug #561040 is a firefox bug or a icedtea6-plugin bug?
[12:08] <didrocks> pitti: I don't have any clue there (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Intrepid/GuestAccount): I must check if I can add a parameter when calling guest-session-setup.sh (the current user GDMSESSION), but I can't find what call this script… Any hint?
[12:08] <tseliot> seb128: which one? The one that we declined for Lucid?
[12:08] <seb128> tseliot, do you think the touchpad config is something like to still change for lucid now? I've no opinion on what standard touchpad behaviour should be...
[12:08] <seb128> tseliot, bug #432814
[12:09] <seb128> tseliot, the lucid task is still open, so if it has been declined could you update the bug?
[12:10] <tseliot> seb128: oh, there's no such thing as a better default in this case. A UI should allow users to change this. And it's something that it's been on my todo list for a while now. mpt designed the UI too. So it's a matter of time for me
[12:10] <tseliot> sure, I'll update that bug report
[12:11] <seb128> tseliot, well, I would say that what other systems are doing would probably be a good default if that's what 90% of users are used to
[12:11] <seb128> tseliot, thanks
[12:11] <pitti> didrocks: (sorry for delay, phone) ah, that's called by gdm, we have a patch for that
[12:12] <didrocks> pitti: (no pb) oh ok, so no current user info knowledge?
[12:12] <pitti> didrocks: right now it just calls gnome-session
[12:12] <pitti> didrocks: no, it's not related to the current user
[12:12] <pitti> didrocks: what's wrong with it?
[12:12] <didrocks> hum… tricky, let's try to only use DefaulSession so and not the dmrc
[12:13] <didrocks> pitti: if you use une, for instance, the guest session is GNOME
[12:13] <didrocks> as it launches gnome-session without the good GDMSESSION
[12:13] <pitti> didrocks: dmrc might be possible, though
[12:14] <pitti> didrocks: setup.sh writes dmrc anyway
[12:14] <didrocks> I've dive a little on that and thought I can fix that easily in the guest session level. I only need to know what's the current session from user clicking on "guest session" in the setup script
[12:14] <pitti> didrocks: that's indicator-session
[12:14] <didrocks> pitti: guest-session-setup.sh is called by indicator-session?
[12:15] <pitti> didrocks: you have to pass it to guest-session-launch, which had to parse it as an argument to the gdm dbus call
[12:15] <pitti> didrocks: yes
[12:15] <pitti> didrocks: and gdm has to pass it to setup.sh
[12:15] <pitti> or just set $GDMSESSION as usual
[12:15] <pitti> the latter is probably easier
[12:15] <didrocks> ok, so indicator-session -> guest-session-launch -> gdm (by dbus) -> guest-session-setup.sh
[12:15] <didrocks> right?
[12:15] <pitti> right
[12:16] <didrocks> sweet, giving it as an argument seems feasable :)
[12:16] <didrocks> thanks pitti
[12:17] <chrisccoulson> mvo - so, icedtea6-plugin was correctly installed at the end of the upgrade?
[12:20] <pitti> didrocks: just checking, you need to ensure that this will still run /usr/share/xsessions/guest-restricted.desktop
[12:20] <pitti> didrocks: because otherwise we'll lose all apparmor confinement
[12:21] <mvo> chrisccoulson: yes
[12:21] <mvo> chrisccoulson: and nothing in the logs indicates a error
[12:21] <mvo> chrisccoulson: however icedtea-gcjplugin was removed
[12:21] <pitti> didrocks: this makes it quite tricky, I think
[12:21] <mvo> chrisccoulson: not sure if that is relevant or a red-herring
[12:21] <pitti> didrocks: setup.sh forces Session=guest-restricted for that reason
[12:22] <chrisccoulson> mvo - i don't think that's relevant, it looks like that was just a transitional package to ensure icedtea6-plugin is installed
[12:23] <didrocks> pitti: right, I've testing something with a symlink like /usr/share/xsessions/une-guest-restricted.desktop and then launching the same wrapper  setting up GDMSESSION depending an that. It seems to work well
[12:23] <didrocks> pitti: the only missing bit for me was to tell "which .desktop file to launch", with the dmrc written by guest-session-setup.sh, hence my question :)
[12:24] <mvo> chrisccoulson: ok, the full logs are in the report, reassign as appropriate (and many thanks for the app-install-data branch update btw)
[12:25] <chrisccoulson> mvo - you're welcome
[12:27] <mvo> seb128: bug 560237 contains a bunch of failures, the gthumb one look nasty (if it is correct that it does no longer support old catalogs)
[12:40] <chrisccoulson> pitti - when you remove packages from the archive, is there a record of that kept somewhere? eg, if i wanted to build a list of packages we dropped this cycle, is that easy to do?
[12:40] <pitti> chrisccoulson: it's recorded in launchpad, on the +changelog page
[12:41] <pitti> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mozilla-noscript/+changelog
[12:41] <pitti> "Deleted in lucid-release on 2010-04-12  (Reason: unsuportable Mozilla extensions, see https://wiki.ubuntu....) "
[12:41] <chrisccoulson> pitti - ah, but that would mean i'd need to already have a list of packages though
[12:41] <chrisccoulson> that's the bit i'm trying to find out :)
[12:42] <pitti> chrisccoulson: alternatively you could grep-dctrl/diff the Sources.gz lists of karmic and lucid
[12:42] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, that's probably a good idea actually. thanks
[12:42] <chrisccoulson> i will try that after i've had some lunch
[12:46] <Ng> james_w: ooi, as I'm hacking/testing away, should I be committing, or turning my changes into patches in debian/patches and committing those?
[12:47] <james_w> chrisccoulson: you can also use the LP api and search for source publications in the Deleted state I believe
[12:47] <james_w> Ng: if the package uses a patch system then you should still follow that
[12:49] <Ng> james_w: fair enough. the shell fu is a bit deep for me, but those three commits applied instead of our patch leave me with working ssh host tab completion, so I'll collapse them into a single patch and push again with that instead of our patch?
[12:50] <james_w> yes please
[12:50] <james_w> or 3 separate patches is fine, whichever is easiest for you
[12:51] <Ng> I figured since they're modifying each other, they have no real utility as separate patches, so I just applied them in sequence and have a nice bzr diff of the aggregate result :)
[12:53] <seb128> re
[12:55] <Ng> james_w: I expect I've stomped all over best practice, but it's built here, tested and pushed.
[12:56] <seb128> mvo, sorry I was having lunch and disconnected
[12:56] <seb128> mvo, what was the bug number?
[12:56] <james_w> yeah, you've clearly made a mockery of best practice by testing it
[12:57] <Ng> haha
[12:59] <mvo> bug 560237
[12:59] <Ng> you should aim to fail gloriously
[13:04] <seb128> mvo, danke
[13:06] <seb128> mvo, it's maybe another argument in favor of doing bug #545871
[13:06] <mvo> seb128: yeah
[13:08] <bdrung> seb128, pitti: pushed evolution and hello to the desktop team :)
[13:09] <pitti> bdrung: thanks! and hello :)
[13:09] <seb128> bdrung, hey, thanks!
[13:09] <bdrung> let's see if this team will absorb me
[13:09] <seb128> hehe
[13:10] <bdrung> that happens quite regular
[13:12] <james_w> Ng: doon
[13:14] <Ng> james_w: outstanding, thank you very very much :D
[13:14] <james_w> no, thank you
[13:15] <Ng> no! ;)
[13:38] <seb128> didrocks, pitti: do you know what happened to the downgrade gthumb discussion?
[13:39] <seb128> cf bug pointed by mvo before
[13:39] <pitti> seb128: I reported a few bugs upstream, and some were fixed; we should do a git pull instead
[13:39] <seb128> the new version can't import or read catalogs from previous version
[13:39] <didrocks> seb128: I just followed that pitti was more pleased about upstream last changes… nothing else
[13:39] <pitti> uh
[13:39] <pitti> but I lost sight of it, TBH
[13:40] <pitti> I don't have previous catalogs, though, so that never occured to me
[13:40] <seb128> me neither
[13:40] <didrocks> same here. I can setup a test if you wish
[13:40] <pitti> this seems to be quite a bit stronger argument than the various small problems
[13:40] <seb128> I'm not sure how common that is
[13:40] <seb128> right, I'm wondering if all considered we should just not revert now for lucid
[13:40] <seb128> less trouble that trying to play catchup on all those issues
[13:41] <pitti> I tend to agree
[13:42] <didrocks> yeah, maybe revert is the good choice there
[13:42] <seb128> didrocks, can you do it?
[13:42] <didrocks> seb128: sure, I'm finishing some gdm test and will do it then
[13:42] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[13:42] <pitti> merci didrocks; please let me know if you need help
[13:42] <didrocks> yw
[13:43] <didrocks> shouldn't be that hard :)
[13:43] <seb128> mvo, ^ fyi
[13:43] <pitti> didrocks: I guess basically take the karmic package, bump version, add changelog, test, upload?
[13:43] <pitti> didrocks: oh, wait, you said we'd need to fix the gvfs unmounting?
[13:43] <didrocks> pitti: IIRC, we had an issue with automounting
[13:43] <didrocks> right
[13:44] <didrocks> I'll have a check again to ensure it's still broken
[13:44] <seb128> didn't we have a patch for this in karmic?
[13:44] <pitti> seb128: just to avoid double work, did you already talk to teuf about bug 544994? I was going to take a stab at this now
[13:44] <seb128> I though the desktop was calling gvfs-umount
[13:45] <pitti> seb128: yes, and that still ought to work
[13:45] <pitti> not sure whether it was the .desktop or gthumb itself
[13:45] <seb128> pitti, I mentioned it on #rhythmbox but we didn't really get anywhere about it
[13:45] <pitti> seb128: ok, thanks
[13:45] <seb128> pitti, so you are welcome to ping teuf about it
[13:46] <pitti> seb128: how is your Apple working with lucid these days, BTW?
[13:46] <pitti> anything that we still need to polish?
[13:46]  * pitti has never seen the afc backend in action
[13:46] <seb128> pitti, it's working well, no polish required that I noticed no
[13:47] <seb128> good work to upstream, teuf, you ;-)
[13:47] <pitti> good to hear
[13:47] <pitti> I think the udisks/gdu/gvfs stack has come together in lucid
[13:49] <seb128> yes
[13:50] <seb128> let's see if the rest of the stack get cleaned and on shape with GNOME3 now
[13:50] <pitti> I just saw vuntz' gsettings blog, nice
[13:51] <baptistemm> yep
[13:51] <seb128> didn't read that one yet
[13:51]  * seb128 looks
[13:51] <seb128> brb session restart
[13:55] <tseliot> seb128: about bug #432814. I think gnome-settings-daemon is using whatever upstream decided to be the default i.e. 1 3 2
[13:55] <tseliot> while the synaptics driver uses 1 2 3. g-s-d overrides the default settings in synaptics though
[13:59] <seb128> tseliot, do you think we should change the default in gsd?
[14:05] <tseliot> seb128: yes, maybe. I'm still trying to figure out what is reversed with respect to what ;)
[14:05] <hyperair> does anyone know if ubuntu has 3-button moues emulation enabled by default?
[14:06] <seb128> tseliot, thanks
[14:06] <tseliot> hyperair: you can check it yourself by doing xinput list-props "name of your device"
[14:07] <hyperair> tseliot: i know *my* configuration. i want to know if it's enabled by default.
[14:07] <hyperair> tseliot: i added a fdi file to only enable 3-button emulation on touchpads, i just can't remember what it was originally.
[14:10] <tseliot> hyperair: wait, what do you mean by 3 button emulation?
[14:10] <hyperair> tseliot: left+rightclick = middleclick
[14:11] <tseliot> middle button emulation seems to be enabled in evdev
[14:12] <hyperair> tseliot: okay, that's what i wanted to know, thanks =)
[14:12] <tseliot> np
[14:21] <seb128> pitti, btw you can use rhythmbox -D mtp to get debug log for mtp only
[14:21] <pitti> seb128: *nod*, I know
[14:21] <seb128> pitti, just in case you didn't know and it would be handy
[14:21] <pitti> merci!
[14:21] <seb128> pitti, ok, I though I would just mention it ;-)
[14:21] <seb128> de rien!
[14:22] <seb128> ls
[14:22] <seb128> ups
[14:23] <pitti> seb128: (I'm not using it, it's still way too verbose; I roughly know what happens, and I'm figuring out the libmtp API now, and stepping through with nemiver)
[14:24] <seb128> ok
[14:25] <tseliot> seb128: ok, so after a closer look at the bug, what they suggest is divert from what upstream set in g-s-d as we already do in synaptics. Fine by me. Shall I fix this?
[14:26] <seb128> tseliot, you know better than me what would be the best default I think, feel free to update g-s-d to use by default whatever makes sense or is coherent with what we had
[14:26] <tseliot> seb128: ok
[14:38] <seb128> re
[14:40] <seb128> does anybody think we need manpages for applets?
[14:41] <seb128> I'm cleaning gnome-applets to stop shipping manpages for applets which are not shipped there
[14:41] <seb128> ie the mixer one
[14:42] <seb128> but half of the manpages don't match a binary and the other ones have wrong names or are buddy and are for things not in bin path anyway
[14:42] <seb128> I'm pondering just dropping those (shipping those is a debian specific change)
[14:44] <didrocks> dropping is better than having deprecated or partially false info
[14:44] <didrocks> (IMHO)
[14:45] <seb128> ok, I take that as a no objection, I'm building it now, if nobody tells me to stop I will clean those in lucid ;-)
[14:49] <kenvandine> seb128, good idea
[14:56] <rickspencer3> hello all
[14:56] <seb128> rickspencer3, hey
[14:56] <kenvandine> hey rickspencer3
[14:57] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i fixed that bug :)
[14:57] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, sweet
[14:57] <rickspencer3> though I was never in doubt
[14:57] <rickspencer3> :)
[14:57] <kenvandine> well, almost... it made me realize something else that needs attention :)
[14:57] <rickspencer3> uhoh
[14:57] <rickspencer3> well, good thing desktopcouch finally got fixed
[14:57] <kenvandine> yup :)
[14:57] <kenvandine> it will get uploaded soon
[14:58] <rickspencer3> now we have another round of bugs to discover before it's too late
[14:58] <kenvandine> hehe
[14:58] <rickspencer3> wasn't kidding, actually ;)
[14:58] <rickspencer3> you always find bugs when you finally get things workng end to end
[14:58] <kenvandine> i know... but i just have to laugh or go nuts
[14:59] <rickspencer3> :)
[14:59] <kenvandine> the bug was we raised GwibberException for the same failure twice
[15:00] <kenvandine> one of which is in the main thread that caused it to exit
[15:00] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, I was simply *reading* (not even running) some of my quidgets code last neight, and I saw 2 bugs
[15:00] <kenvandine> so my new discovery, in fixing this bug
[15:00] <kenvandine> is we notify the user of the failed keyring look up 3 times for the same account
[15:00] <kenvandine> all at the exact same time
[15:01] <kenvandine> so you get 3 dialogs at once
[15:01] <rickspencer3> oops
[15:01] <kenvandine> so we need a way to track that we have notified the user
[15:01] <kenvandine> the problem is, it happens so fast... all in parallel threads
[15:02] <didrocks> hey rickspencer3
[15:02] <rickspencer3> hi didrocks
[15:02] <rickspencer3> how are you?
[15:02] <didrocks> I'm fine, thanks, working on last annoying bugs :)
[15:02] <kenvandine> the dialog does check to see if there is an existing window from the same progname and raise it instead of opening a new one..
[15:02] <didrocks> you?
[15:03] <kenvandine> but since it happens at the exact same time, that fails
[15:07] <pitti> hey rickspencer3
[15:07] <rickspencer3> hi pitti
 I'm fine, thanks, working on last annoying bugs :)
[15:07] <rickspencer3> that sounds good
[15:07] <seb128> didrocks, you are sure we are running out of annoying bugs? ;-)
[15:07] <rickspencer3> better than "last crashers"
[15:07] <seb128> didrocks, I can give you some from my list if you want :p
[15:07]  * didrocks hides :)
[15:08] <rickspencer3> didrocks, I'm fine, in fact, my wife inadvertently turned off my alarm, so I slept an extra 45 minutes
[15:08] <rickspencer3> it was awesome!
[15:08] <rickspencer3> total guilt free oversleeping
[15:08] <didrocks> pitti, seb128: ok, got the guest session working depending on the flavor you are running. This include two uploads (gdm and gdm-guest-session). If people just install one of those, the guest session won't work. I think that doesn't deserve a Break:
[15:08] <didrocks> rickspencer3: heh, "it wasn't your fault" :)
[15:09] <rickspencer3> of course, if I heard this excuse from one of you guys, I'd be really suspicious ;)
[15:09] <pitti> didrocks: you can at least bump the gdm dependency of g-guest-sessio
[15:09] <pitti> n
[15:09] <seb128> rickspencer3, good one, next time I feel lazy I will tell people that the can stepped on the alarm clock button when I join ;-)
[15:09] <didrocks> pitti: right, can do that
[15:10] <seb128> didrocks, what pitti said
[15:10] <pitti> seb128: urgh, the Malevolent Coke Can From Hell?
[15:10]  * didrocks throws out his alarm clock
[15:10] <seb128> the ca*t*
[15:10] <seb128> I should really start reading what I type ;-)
[15:10] <pitti> argh
[15:11] <kenvandine> hehe... with young kids, i haven't slept until my alarm went off in years :/
[15:11] <pitti> now I wrote such a nice function to see whether a device in Rhythmbox is actually an audio player
[15:11] <pitti> but my camer actually supports .wav files
[15:11] <seb128> pitti, speaking of coke can I watched some tv show where they explains how much trouble those create for french trains every year
[15:11] <pitti> seb128: how so? shouldn't be much worse than coffee, except making you fat?
[15:11] <seb128> pitti, getting stucked between both rail parts and turn on the "other train on the line" detection and stopping trains
[15:11] <pitti> oh, cans
[15:11] <pitti> indeed
[15:12] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, anything we need to do (and by "we" I mean you ;) ) for bug #562618?
[15:12] <seb128> pitti, yes
[15:12] <seb128> pitti, lol
[15:12] <seb128> pitti, see, it's a multimedia player, it can even do avi recording!
[15:12] <pitti> yes, it can..
[15:12] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i will follow-up
[15:12] <pitti> seb128: do you have a camera which is a bit less ambitious?
[15:13] <seb128> pitti, no, I've a canon a95
[15:13] <seb128> I guess it's the same
[15:13] <seb128> I can check if you want
[15:13] <rickspencer3> will be hard to find a camera that doesn't take movies I think
[15:13] <pitti> but movies are uninteresting for Rhythmbox
[15:14] <pitti> seb128: install mtp-tools and run mtp-detect
[15:14] <seb128> pitti, how do I see if it claims handling wav?
[15:14] <pitti> libmtp supported (playable) filetypes:
[15:14] <pitti>    Audio Video Interleave
[15:14] <pitti>    RIFF WAVE file
[15:14] <pitti>    JPEG file
[15:15] <seb128> libmtp supported (playable) filetypes:
[15:15] <seb128>    JPEG file
[15:15] <seb128>    Audio Video Interleave
[15:15] <seb128>    RIFF WAVE file
[15:15] <seb128> pitti, ^
[15:15] <pitti> ok
[15:15]  * pitti tries if that actually works in RB, before getting out a bigger hammer
[15:15] <seb128> pitti, you didn't filter out on the udev music player id thing?
[15:16] <pitti> seb128: I'm a bit worried on filtering devices which RB actually can deal with
[15:17] <seb128> pitti, in case some are working but not listed in libmtp rules?
[15:17] <pitti> yes
[15:17] <seb128> hum, yeah, I can see that
[15:17] <seb128> though the way forward might be to just add those missing to libmtp
[15:17] <seb128> but right, it's a bit late for that in lucid
[15:18] <pitti> I can't even figure out how to record a .wav on that thing
[15:25] <pitti> (16:25:06) [0xb27040] [create_source_device_cb] rb-mtp-plugin.c:422: device is not an audio player, ignoring
[15:25] <pitti> hah
[15:31] <kklimonda> what is the reason for disabling report a problem menu item? can I read about it somewhere?
[15:34] <kklimonda> ok, I think the full specification makes some sense
[15:35] <seb128> kklimonda, users usually want to use the answer tracker to have somebody looking at their issue rather than report bugs
[15:36] <kklimonda> seb128: mhm, that was my gut feeling too - thanks for the clarification
[15:49] <pitti> seb128: ok for me to upload RB? (for the camera fix)
[15:50] <seb128> pitti, yes please, there is nothing in git pending upload and I've nothing locally
[15:50]  * seb128 hugs pitti
[15:50]  * pitti hugs back seb128
[15:50] <robert_ancell> who suggest the skype/empathy integration blueprint idea?  Is that feasible?  That would be so awesome...
[15:51] <seb128> robert_ancell, I would say it's rickspencer3 but I'm not sure
[15:51] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell, well ... someone requested that I include it
[15:51] <rickspencer3> I think OEM services or such
[15:51] <seb128> robert_ancell, looking for new challenges in the next cycle? ;-)
[15:52] <robert_ancell> yeah, I'd work on that!
[15:52] <robert_ancell> the skype ui leaves a lot to be desired.  Proper integration would be awesome
[15:53] <robert_ancell> I was just using it a few hours ago and I wanted to share my desktop.  You could do that much easier with something like empathy...
[15:54] <pitti> didrocks: can you please push your gdm-guest-session changes to bzr?
[15:54] <tseliot> seb128: I've just uploaded the fix for g-s-d
[15:54] <seb128> tseliot, thanks!
[15:55] <seb128> robert_ancell, you can already do that with empathy
[15:55] <tseliot> seb128: np. Note: I haven't touched its bzr branch (if it uses one)
[15:56] <seb128> tseliot, oh, come come you didn't? yes there is one as documented in the control
[15:56] <seb128> tseliot, could you update it too?
[15:56] <tseliot> seb128: because I have bad memory ;)
[15:56] <tseliot> sure
[15:56] <seb128> tseliot, thanks
[15:56] <didrocks> pitti: it's done normally (~ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu/lucid/gdm-guest-session/ubuntu) following your last value in the control file: ~ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu/karmic/gdm-guest-session/ubuntu
[15:56] <seb128> tseliot, apt-get source should tell you about those btw
[15:57] <tseliot> right but my multitasking doesn't help :-P
[16:05] <seb128> didrocks, btw where is the french layout bug now? waiting on replies in the fdo bugzilla bug?
[16:06] <pitti> didrocks: hm, it should be lucid now, I suppose
[16:06] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, I think that I'll still leave 2 hours before we take a decision
[16:06] <seb128> didrocks, did svu had any useful hint?
[16:06] <pitti> didrocks: anyway, I pulled from /karmic/ here, and no updates
[16:06] <didrocks> pitti: it's ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu/lucid/gdm-guest-session/ubuntu
[16:06] <pitti> didrocks: ah, thanks
[16:06] <didrocks> pitti: yw
[16:07] <didrocks> seb128: nothing more than the discussion we had yesterday
[16:07] <didrocks> seb128: so, what we can do is to include level4n instead of level4nl
[16:07] <didrocks> we will loose the 5th modifier key, which isn't that much
[16:08] <didrocks> if we add the right ctrl key manually as the 5th level, we will be back in the bug in 2008…
[16:09] <seb128> didrocks, ok
[16:09] <seb128> which is better than the one we have now imho
[16:09] <didrocks> right
[16:09] <didrocks> and not including the 5th level will avoid us the bug in 2008 (right ctrl not working in virtualbox, for instance)
[16:10] <didrocks> we will just loose this modifier key… not a big deal I guess (it's been 2 days I'm living without it, noticed nothing annoying myself)
[16:10] <seb128> ok good
[16:10] <seb128> I would say to do the change
[16:11] <seb128> if it annoys really people who are keyboard geeks that make wake them to comment on the bug with suggestions :p
[16:13] <didrocks> ok, finishing the gthumb test first (it seems to me that the previous version upgraded my import files too, but well, let's downgrade it)
[16:13] <didrocks> the previous version in lucid is importing my photo from my camera correctly this time. Don't know what happened a couple of month ago
[16:19] <asac> 17:18 < asac> anyone has a hotmail account ;)
[16:19] <asac> 17:18 < asac> whats the url to go to to get to the inbox?
[16:22] <rickspencer3> Amaranth, hi, I'm interested in your thoughts on bug #556631
[16:22] <rickspencer3> is this truly a high?
[16:22] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: Well, I commented on it :)
[16:22] <rickspencer3> oh
[16:23] <rickspencer3> Amaranth, but a "High"?
[16:23] <rickspencer3> seems your comments suggest it is not tractable, and perhaps not a High
[16:23] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: Yeah
[16:24] <Amaranth> I think it got High because it's a regression
[16:29] <james_w> chrisccoulson: hey, two things. 1) is there a replacement for the libmozjs0d package in xul 1.9, or was it dropped as it shouldn't be used externally. 2) did you get anywhere with that SoC student?
[16:29] <Amaranth> Although that may not be true either
[16:30] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: It's either a regression or the real bug is that when running compiz and attaching a second monitor it doesn't do the checks again
[16:30] <chrisccoulson> james_w - 1) there isn't a replacement, as applications shouldn't be using that directly
[16:30] <chrisccoulson> 2) I've not had a chance to speak to the SoC student yet, but was going to mail him later
[16:31] <james_w> cool
[16:31] <rickspencer3> Amaranth, the bug is currently a release blocker
[16:31] <Amaranth> Although I thought that would no longer be the case with the code in lucid, was hoping when ever compiz ran in to this kind of situation it would go back to metacity even if the checks allowed it to start
[16:31] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, desktopcouch uploaded, and gwibber fix uploaded :)
[16:31] <james_w> the deadline is close
[16:31] <rickspencer3> would you consider decreasing the importance?
[16:31]  * kenvandine -> lunch
[16:31] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, sweeeet!
[16:31] <james_w> chrisccoulson: is there a usual thing that is done with bugs like bug 536643 then?
[16:32] <chrisccoulson> james_w - i'm not entirely familiar with what i need to do for the deadline. i can probably find out, but perhaps you can already tell me what i need to do
[16:32] <chrisccoulson> i'm registered as a mentor for Ubuntu now
[16:32] <james_w> chrisccoulson: you need to click "I'm willing to mentor this application" if you are, and then vote on how good you think it is
[16:33] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: If the bug is that running `compiz` with both monitors enabled allows this situation then it probably should be High but if the bug is that attaching a second monitor while compiz is running causes this I would lower it
[16:33] <chrisccoulson> james_w - the usual thing for bugs like bug 536643 is to drop the application ;)
[16:33] <chrisccoulson> but, i can probably look at that and see if it's fixable
[16:33] <james_w> chrisccoulson: if you could take a 2 minute look to start that would be great.
[16:34] <chrisccoulson> james_w - in general, applications should be using the XPCOM glue to find the library (which we put in an unstable path, whose location changes with each new version)
[16:34] <Nafai> morning
[16:34] <chrisccoulson> but, it can be "fixed" with some LD_LIBRARY_PATH magic
[16:34] <rickspencer3> hi Nafai
[16:35] <Nafai> HI rickspencer3
[16:35] <chrisccoulson> although i wouldn't encourage that as a long term solution
[16:49] <rickspencer3> Nafai I bet you can guess what I am gong to ask you ;)
[16:49] <Nafai> I'm fine, thank you :)
[16:49] <Nafai> j/k
[16:49] <Nafai> I've got one more avenue to go down and then I'm going to reach out for help this morning
[16:49]  * hyperair wonders if gwibber has been stubborn for anyone else besides me where twitter is concerned
[16:50] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: In that reporter's .xsession-errors he gets "/usr/bin/compiz (core) - Warn: Exceeded max texture size" but I changed that to a fatal error
[16:55] <Amaranth> oh, no I didn't, it's still a warning but immediately after the warning it calls launchFallbackWM()
[16:56] <chrisccoulson_> james_w, ok, it looks possible to compile without spidermonkey support
[16:56] <rickspencer3> Amaranth, do you feel that we need to focus on this bug, and not ship if we don't resolve it?
[16:56] <chrisccoulson_> i would probably just do that in lucid tbh
[16:56] <james_w> chrisccoulson_: sounds reasonable
[16:56] <james_w> perhaps just drop a note in the bug
[16:57] <chrisccoulson_> james_w - yeah, i can do that
[16:59] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: Well considering him getting the warning means he is running the code I wrote to make compiz stop loading it could certainly be a big issue if that code isn't working
[16:59] <Amaranth> rickspencer3: Because that means it's possible that code isn't working for the other cases where we stop trying to load compiz and use metacity instead
[17:00] <rickspencer3> hmm
[17:00] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:00] <rickspencer3> Amaranth, who should the bug be assigned to then?
[17:00]  * rickspencer3 hint hint ;)
[17:00] <Amaranth> heh
[17:00] <rickspencer3> the subtly is awesome
[17:11] <Amaranth> I wonder if some of the process state compiz sets up (signal handling and such) is causing issues when execlp launches metacity
[17:12] <Amaranth> But if metacity is not found it'll launch xterm and if either one of those are not found or fail to start (execlp returns) compiz immediately calls exit(EXIT_FAILURE) so that shouldn't do anything either
[17:13] <Amaranth> So somehow even though the warning and the call to launchFallbackWM are inside the same if block one is getting called but not the other...
[17:16] <Amaranth> but we know this code is working for other people because someone filed a bug complaining about their 2048xsomething resolution no longer working with compiz since we changed to check for >= max texture size
[17:16] <nigelb> didrocks, anything more I need to do for cheese?
[17:17] <didrocks> nigelb: sorry, I didn't have the time to test it again since the last crash, I'll have a free slot in few minutes, can you paste me again the bug report, please?
[17:17] <nigelb> didrocks, just the bug number?
[17:18] <didrocks> nigelb: yes :)
[17:18] <nigelb> bug 542091
[17:18] <nigelb> who deals with pitivi by the way?
[17:19] <didrocks> nigelb: thanks
[17:19] <nigelb> there is a bug fix sitting with ack from release team, bug 314885.  If someone can look into it, would be great :)
[17:19] <didrocks> oh, seems easy, can have a look too
[17:19] <vish> nigelb: kiddo
[17:19] <nigelb> thank you :)
[17:19] <vish> for pitivi^
[17:19] <nigelb> vish, huh?
[17:20] <vish> nigelb: https://launchpad.net/~kiddo
[17:20] <nigelb> vish, ah.  thanks :)
[17:20] <didrocks> seb128: ok, uploaded xkeyboard-config, tell me if it fixes for you. I'm happily using the space bar in rhythmbox now :)
[17:21] <seb128> didrocks, waouh, thanks!
[17:27] <didrocks> vish: is kiddo a core-dev? I guess vish was asking for someone with upload rights
[17:27] <didrocks> s/vish/nigelb/ (for the second occurence) :)
[17:27] <vish> didrocks: oh , no he is just for pitivi contact
[17:27] <didrocks> nigelb: will have a look to sponsor this one for you too, so
[17:28] <nigelb> yeah, I was asking for someone with upload rights.  I wanted the Desktop Team guy for pitivi :)
[17:28] <nigelb> didrocks, thanks again :)
[17:28] <vish> nigelb:  he usually helps in upstream contacts for pitivi
[17:31] <rickspencer3> bug #552221
[17:31] <nigelb> mvo, will you be able to get this fix in? bug 154349
[17:33] <seb128> rickspencer3, it's not a bug
[17:33] <rickspencer3> seb128, ok
[17:33] <seb128> rickspencer3, we don't run the gnome-media sound applet but use the indicator now
[17:33] <seb128> rickspencer3, so we masked the GNOME one from the autostart list
[17:33] <seb128> so users don't get both started
[17:33] <rickspencer3> seb128, I just got pinged about this by komputes
[17:34] <rickspencer3> rather thane explain to me, can you just comment on the bug
[17:34]  * rickspencer3 is super lazy today :)
[17:34] <seb128> rickspencer3, I'm already late for sport so I need to run now but I will do that when I'm back
[17:34] <seb128> bbl
[17:35] <rickspencer3> seb128, k
[17:35] <rickspencer3> thanks seb128
[17:36] <didrocks> nigelb: apart from the fact that you had "karmic" in the changelog, it was all good. Fixed and cheese uploaded. Thanks :)
[17:37] <nigelb> didrocks, yeah, doing stuff in the evening after 12 hours at work tends to drain my concentration.  thanks again.
[17:37] <didrocks> yw
[17:38] <nigelb> ouch, so I need to poke someone about that software center bug.
[17:38] <mvo> nigelb: its on my "look at things" list, that list is currently long unfortunately :(
[17:39] <nigelb> mvo, aaah. the final freeze being hours away got me worried :)
[17:39] <nigelb> mvo, I'm just going through the patches I've reviewed for things that can go into lucid
[17:40] <mvo> nigelb: there are some other synaptic fixes pending
[17:41] <nigelb> mvo, ah.  No problem :)
[17:41] <didrocks> see you seb128
[17:49] <didrocks> nigelb: and pitivi sponsored (refreshed to apply against last version), good work :)
[17:49] <nigelb> didrocks, yaay! thanks again.
[17:49] <didrocks> ok, let's go now into my most important task of the day (I think rickspencer3 will agree): releasing Quickly 0.4 :)
[17:49] <didrocks> (kidding)
[17:50] <nigelb> didrocks, sorry about the debdiff being stale.  I did it quite some time back :)
[17:50] <rickspencer3> yeah!
[17:50] <Nafai> didrocks: w00
[17:50] <didrocks> nigelb: well, next time, we'll see together how to do that with bzr if you wish :)
[17:50] <nigelb> didrocks, I know the bzr method.  probably in maverick, I'll use that exclusively
[17:51] <didrocks> nigelb: sweet, it'll make merge so easy :)
[17:52] <nigelb> ah, I'll keep that in mind :)
[18:14] <czajkowski> kenvandine: ping
[18:14] <kenvandine> czajkowski, pong
[18:15] <czajkowski> kenvandine: in gwibber should you really be able to seem dms which you've deleted on the web ?
[18:16] <kenvandine> yes
[18:16] <kenvandine> humm
[18:16] <kenvandine> gwibber caches them
[18:16] <kenvandine> but doesn't know it has been deleted on the web
[18:16] <kenvandine> i wonder if the API has a way to find those
[18:17] <czajkowski> tis just a thought :)
[18:18] <kenvandine> czajkowski, can you please file a bug?
[18:18] <kenvandine> we should consider that for next cycle
[18:18] <czajkowski> kenvandine: lovely will do :)
[18:18] <kenvandine> thank you!
[18:34]  * Nafai lunches
[18:36] <kenvandine> Nafai, enjoy!
[18:40] <rickspencer3> wow
[18:40] <rickspencer3> didrocks, lots of "Fix Released" in my inbox!
[18:41] <milanbv> chrisccoulson: I guess it will be hard to get the stb 2.10.0 in Lucid before the release...
[18:41] <rickspencer3> seb128, didrocks, pitti, kenvandine, chrisccoulson, everyone else ...
[18:41] <rickspencer3> check it out ...
[18:41] <rickspencer3> http://is.gd/bszVI
[18:41] <rickspencer3> so 99 papercuts fixed in Lucid
[18:41] <rickspencer3> but some bugs with patches
[18:41] <rickspencer3> anyway we could pick out a couple of these patches and put it over 100?
[18:42] <rickspencer3> that would be really cool
[18:42] <rickspencer3> just 1 more
[18:42] <milanbv> rickspencer3: I have one :-)
[18:42] <milanbv> a student is working on time-admin
[18:42] <rickspencer3> milanbv, a fixed paper cut you can upload?
[18:42] <milanbv> there's a patch
[18:43] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i'll look
[18:43] <milanbv> bug 551936
[18:43] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[18:43] <milanbv> he was going to make the patch available in a PPA, patch is not tested yet
[18:43] <nigelb> rickspencer3, I can get a debdiff of bug 150690 if you can test it from my ppa
[18:43] <milanbv> but it should work
[18:43] <rickspencer3> any of these that don't break visual freeze, and are very low risk, may be worth picking off
[18:44] <milanbv> rickspencer3: if you want, he'll be glad to make a debdiff quickly (he'sin a hurry)
[18:44] <rickspencer3> but I think pitti needs to weight in here
[18:44] <asac> seems bug 314885 was also fixed in ubuntu ... but isnt marked as fixed in the papercuts project
[18:44] <rickspencer3> as the pointer haired manager, of course I will ask for more bug fixing ;)
[18:44] <rickspencer3> djsiegel, ^
[18:44] <asac> heh. thats 32 minutes ago i just saw ;)
[18:44] <rickspencer3> you know what's up with the pitivi bug?
[18:44] <rickspencer3> so that puts us to 100?
[18:45] <milanbv> argh, too many easy to fix bugs!
[18:45] <rickspencer3> well, if folks put the effort into making the patches, seems like it would be nice to consider them
[18:45] <rickspencer3> but I defer to pitti
[18:45] <rickspencer3> he is in charge of delivery, not me ;)
[18:46] <milanbv> just tell me, else he will provide an updated patch and we'll see later
[18:46] <pitti> rickspencer3: re
[18:46] <pitti> rickspencer3: bug 314885 is fixed, closing that; does that put us to 100?
[18:47] <pitti> ah, so said asac already
[18:48] <pitti> rickspencer3: it's worth having a look at the list, anyway, although it gets quite tight
[18:48] <rickspencer3> pitti, ack
[18:48] <djsiegel> kind of a weak paper cut... :)
[18:48] <djsiegel> but let's count it!
[18:48] <asac> next time we go for 100k ;)
[18:48] <chrisccoulson_> has somebody highlighted my other name in the last few minutes? i see the icon on my laptop, but i can't use it to find out who ;)
[18:48] <asac> 100 is too easy
[18:49] <chrisccoulson_> (i'm on my desktop atm)
[18:49] <djsiegel> would love to see other projects remove version numbers from their titlebars
[18:49] <djsiegel> so it's a good example even if it's super tiny
[18:49] <djsiegel> So, that's 76 paper cuts fixed in Karmic, then 100 in Lucid
[18:49] <djsiegel> and it's possible that more than 100 were fixed in lucid
[18:50] <djsiegel> because we have 176 fixed in hundredpapercuts, and I just subtracted 76 from that to get the lucid total
[18:50] <chrisccoulson_> oh, i see now, it was milanbv and rickspencer3 ;)
[18:50] <djsiegel> if any of the 76 for karmic were marked fixed incorrectly, we may have more than 100 for luci
[18:50] <djsiegel> d
[18:53] <pitti> rickspencer3: I wonder why so few, if any, of them are in the sponsoring queue
[18:54] <rickspencer3> pitti, dunno
[18:54] <rickspencer3> must be a bit of a breakdown there
[18:55] <pitti> phone again, bbl
[18:55]  * rickspencer3 lunch -> gym
[18:55] <rickspencer3> bbl
[18:59] <rickspencer3> pitti, if you guys could scrub that list and make sure there aren't a few more fixes that would make sense to upload ...
[18:59] <rickspencer3> I would really appreciate that
[19:03] <didrocks> rickspencer3: I'll try now
[19:03] <didrocks> (back from dinner)
[19:05] <pitti> seb128, rickspencer3: I found three which we could still upload
[19:06] <didrocks> pitti: needs help to review them?
[19:06] <pitti> bug 272792, bug 495723, bug 550195
[19:06] <pitti> didrocks: if you have some minutes, grab one?
[19:07] <didrocks> sure, taking first one first :)
[19:07] <pitti> didrocks: could you perhaps do 550195? it's easy to test and the patch looks rather easy?
[19:07] <didrocks> ok
[19:07] <pitti> ok, great; thanks
[19:07] <pitti> didrocks: I'll do the gnome-media one then
[19:07] <didrocks> ok :)
[19:10] <chrisccoulson_> pitti - are you free to do another couple of extension removals? :)
[19:11] <pitti> chrisccoulson_: can do
[19:12] <pitti> ah, I can't
[19:12] <chrisccoulson_> pitti - oh, how come?
[19:13] <pitti> guests just arrived, sorry :)
[19:13] <pitti> so I'm off for today
[19:13] <pitti> see you all tomorrow!
[19:13] <rickspencer3> bye pitti
[19:14] <chrisccoulson_> pitti - ok, no worries. have a good evening :)
[19:14] <didrocks> enjoy your evening pitti
[19:19] <didrocks> pitti: rickspencer3: won't update the nautilus location bar patch. It's quite hackish with hard coded value, the upstream bug also lack of comments
[19:19] <rickspencer3> didrocks, good
[19:20] <rickspencer3> use your judgement
[19:20] <didrocks> would be bad to break everything before final freeze :)
[19:20] <rickspencer3> yes
[19:20] <rickspencer3> would be bad to not apply patches that make sense too
[19:20] <rickspencer3> so you're doing the right thing
[19:20] <rickspencer3> thanks, didrocks
[19:20]  * rickspencer3 leaves again
[19:20] <rickspencer3> bbiab
[19:20] <didrocks> see you rickspencer3
[19:26] <didrocks> asac: what's the url of the paperput project to see the number of closed one?
[19:28] <didrocks> just the sum of the "Milestone-targeted bugs"? in the project page :)
[19:28] <didrocks> it's 48 if I only counting that. Should miss something
[19:31] <didrocks> djsiegel: ^
[19:32] <didrocks> djsiegel: oh, backlog your comment, ok, you substract the number :)
[19:32] <djsiegel> http://is.gd/bsHWc
[19:32] <djsiegel> that's all Fix Committed + Fix Released
[19:32] <djsiegel> in hundredpapercuts
[19:32] <didrocks> yeah, and you are sure that we had 76 fixed in karmic?
[19:41] <didrocks> milanbv: if he's eager to update his patch now. I can apply it
[19:41] <milanbv> didrocks: OK
[19:41] <milanbv> I tell him
[19:43] <djsiegel> didrocks: yes, 76 in karmic
[19:44] <djsiegel> didrocks: http://davidsiegel.org/100papercuts-karmic-lucid/
[19:44] <didrocks> djsiegel: sweet, we will have 101 at least for lucid so :)
[19:45]  * djsiegel high-fives didrocks (and misses)
[19:45] <djsiegel> oops, I missed
[19:45] <didrocks> heh
[19:49] <milanbv> didrocks: what's the deadline for the patch?
[19:49] <didrocks> milanbv: I'll certainly quit in one hour and I don't know if the freeze will be tomorrow morning or later
[19:49] <didrocks> I can adapt the patch then…
[19:52] <milanbv> didrocks: he's currently merging it
[19:52] <didrocks> milanbv: nice!
[20:00] <milanbv> didrocks: here's xiegai, who's fixing the paper cut in time-amdin
[20:01] <didrocks> hey xiegai :)
[20:01] <xiegai> didrocks,  hi
[20:04] <milanbv> I have to go, I let you see how you can upload that fix
[20:05] <didrocks> milanbv: sure, enjoy your evening
[20:05] <didrocks> xiegai: do you need any help?
[20:06] <milanbv> I've attached a patch, but I've just noticed xiegai has come to the same result
[20:06] <milanbv> they are likely to be the same :-)
[20:06] <milanbv> good luck!
[20:07] <didrocks> seeing that, having a look now
[20:23] <didrocks> xiegai: your change seems good. Uploading now
[20:23] <vish> didrocks:hi..  what about http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=157906 , it is for an lp papercut bug , but hasnt moved upstream ?
[20:23] <vish> Bug #503330
[20:24] <xiegai> didrocks,  Thanks very much.
[20:24] <didrocks> xiegai: I still have one issue though (after first install, after closing the window and relaunch it, it seems to keep on manual… if you want to have a look)
[20:25] <xiegai> didrocks,  ok I 'll see that
[20:28] <didrocks> xiegai: thank you for your contribution :) pushed now
[20:29] <didrocks> vish: looking
[20:31] <didrocks> vish: well, let's discuss it for next cycle if upstream doesn't integrate it. It requires UI and strings change and we are passed the two freeze (in addition, I don't think we will get exception before final freeze)
[20:32] <vish> didrocks: right , UIF .. thanks for looking :)
[20:32] <didrocks> vish: you're welcome, keep it warm for maverick :)
[20:37] <seb128> re
[21:26] <rickspencer3> bryceh, hi
[21:28] <seb128> rickspencer3, wb
[21:28] <rickspencer3> thanks seb128
[21:28] <seb128> rickspencer3, those hundredpapercut with patches you listed before, there quite some of not most of those which got reviewed and are not good for upload
[21:29] <seb128> rickspencer3, launchpad doesn't have a way to handle patch status to say that though...
[21:29] <rickspencer3> seb128, right
[21:29] <rickspencer3> as I said to didrocks, just use good judgement
[21:29] <rickspencer3> if it seems "might as well", then do it
[21:29] <rickspencer3> otherwise, move on, don't discuss it
[21:29] <seb128> right, just commenting on why is seems we have so much patches waiting
[21:30] <seb128> is -> it
[21:30] <rickspencer3> if len(appropriate_patches) == 0:
[21:30] <rickspencer3>    rin
[21:30] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, desktopcouch and gwibber fixes are still in the queue to biuld
[21:30] <rickspencer3> fine
[21:30] <kenvandine> but soon
[21:30] <rickspencer3> thanks kenvandine
[21:30] <rickspencer3> I'm looking forward
[21:30] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, please let me know when you get to test them :)
[21:30] <rickspencer3> will do
[21:30]  * kenvandine is anxious to see if it works for you :)
[21:30] <rickspencer3> you are guys are all just rocking~
[21:30] <rickspencer3> this has been a grest week
[21:31] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, also the other replication bug for u1, they plan to address it by tomorrow
[21:31] <kenvandine> it's being worked
[21:31]  * kenvandine had a very productive day at the coffee shop, need to do that more often
[21:33] <rickspencer3> good!
[21:33] <bryceh> grest?
[21:33] <rickspencer3> grest = great for bad typists
[21:33] <kenvandine> :-D
[21:33] <rickspencer3> like a great rest
[21:34] <bryceh> thought it was some permutation of grisly ;-)
[21:34] <bryceh> which would be descriptive for my week ;-)
[21:35] <rickspencer3> bryceh, sorry dude
[21:35] <rickspencer3> bryceh, I meant to ask, have you synced with apw on the 845/855 thing?
[21:36] <rickspencer3> I kinda forgot to mention this to the kernel team
[21:36] <rickspencer3> :/
[21:37] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, did you ever push a slip-cover branch anywhere?
[21:37] <rickspencer3> lp:slip-cover
[21:37] <bryceh> actually it's just been a busy week, shifting time between X and multitouch has me feeling schitzo %-)
[21:37] <rickspencer3> it's also in my ppa
[21:37] <kenvandine> seb128, btw libproxy 0.4.0 didn't build on first try for me, and i haven't had time to mess with it :/
[21:38] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yeah talked with apw about it just a bit ago, we're going to just blacklist all the 8xx chips except 865 and hope that helps
[21:38] <kenvandine> i did change packaging to handle cmake
[21:38] <bryceh> rickspencer3, I'd have liked to see more testing be done, but we just don't have the time
[21:38] <rickspencer3> bryceh, is this change going in today?
[21:39] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yeah apw says it'll go in the next kernel update
[21:39] <rickspencer3> ah
[21:39] <bryceh> unfortunately blacklisting requires doing a kernel rev
[21:39] <rickspencer3> it's in the kernel
[21:39] <rickspencer3> I thought it was in -intel
[21:39] <rickspencer3> shows how useless I am
[21:39] <bryceh> no
[21:39] <seb128> kenvandine, ok, seems late for lucid anyway to add new features to gwibber etc
[21:40] <kenvandine> yeah
[21:40] <bryceh> rickspencer3, you might be thinking of RAOF's patch to switch of DRI, which went in yesterday
[21:40] <kenvandine> seb128, i want to focus on what we have :)
[21:40] <bryceh> testing so far shows it reduced the frequency but didn't solve it
[21:40] <rickspencer3> fuuudge
[21:40] <rickspencer3> bryceh, I was thinking of RAOF
[21:40] <rickspencer3> s DRI patch
[21:41] <rickspencer3> so you are blacklisting for KMS too?
[21:41] <bryceh> yep
[21:41] <bryceh> you know, part of me thinks we may be chasing a corner case
[21:41] <rickspencer3> mmm
[21:41] <rickspencer3> could be
[21:41] <rickspencer3> but we are running out of time, so I think your extra caution is good
[21:42] <rickspencer3> I like the idea of focusing on 845/855 functionality in a PPA or similar
[21:42] <bryceh> yeah
[21:42] <rickspencer3> and deliver stability with the main release
[21:42] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, so running slip-cover from the bzr branch i get a strange server info tab
[21:42] <rickspencer3> then in .1 we can cut over
[21:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, that's not strange
[21:42] <rickspencer3> that's my beautiful code
[21:42] <kenvandine> well what can i do with it?
[21:42] <kenvandine> hehe
[21:42] <bryceh> rickspencer3, well, we've gone well beyond the call of duty communicating the 8xx problems to upstream over and over and over again
[21:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, File->Open->
[21:42] <rickspencer3> ok
[21:42] <kenvandine> oh!
[21:42] <bryceh> rickspencer3, there's little we can do except wait on them to actually fix it
[21:43] <rickspencer3> bryceh, would you like me to comment on bugs? I could say the stability over functionality thing there
[21:43] <bryceh> (aside from us hiring a driver developer to work on it ourselves)
[21:43] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yes
[21:43] <rickspencer3> but would we work on those chips?
[21:43] <bryceh> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/563277
[21:43] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, this is a beautiful thing
[21:44] <bryceh> rickspencer3, right, I'd think if we did hire a driver developer we'd want them working on hardware more likely to gain us income ;-)
[21:44] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, there is a File->New as well
[21:44] <bryceh> probably would be cheaper to just buy new netbooks for anyone that reports a bug against 8xx ;-)
[21:44] <rickspencer3> bryceh, not "income" so much as "users"
[21:44] <kenvandine> yeah, i assumed they did nothing yet :)
[21:44] <rickspencer3> though the OEM team might hire your kind of dev ;)
[21:45] <bryceh> rickspencer3, it would be interesting to contact a group like freegeek to see if they process many 8xx systems
[21:45] <rickspencer3> mmm
[21:45] <rickspencer3> of course, for that, probably an older version of Ubuntu would be better
[21:45] <bryceh> rickspencer3, on a different note, I've spent more time on Windows this week than I've done in the last 5 years I think
[21:45] <rickspencer3> as we support new hardware, old hardware inevitably has to get less support
[21:46] <bryceh> rickspencer3, true
[21:46] <rickspencer3> bryceh, ?
[21:46] <rickspencer3> windows, wtf?
[21:46] <bryceh> rickspencer3, for the multitouch stuff
[21:46] <bryceh> turns out the firmware updates from Dell can *only* be installed from Windows
[21:46] <bryceh> thus all the grest in my week
[21:46] <mvo> lucid works very well on my x30 with i830 chipset, its about as fast (or slow) as a netbook. the only issue is the KMS
[21:46] <mvo> (just my 0.02¢)
[21:47] <bryceh> mvo, ah disabling KMS makes it work ?
[21:47] <mvo> yes, i915.modeset=0 and it boots/works fine
[21:47] <bryceh> excellent
[21:47] <mvo> nomodeset used to work too, but stopped at some point
[21:48] <bryceh> yeah that's not a valid option anymore
[21:48] <jcastro> bryceh: hey I found some i8xx people on the forums if you want to find more people
[21:48] <mvo> but X is doing fine, I was pleasantly supprised, I had given up to run anything more modern than hardy (the last release that worked with this intel chipset)
[21:49] <mvo> but now even videos work
[21:49] <mvo> again :)
[21:49] <bryceh> jcastro, the bug reports we need 8xx feedback on are lp #541511 #541492 #542208 #511001
[21:49] <jcastro> bryceh: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1453847
[21:49] <rickspencer3> bryceh, how did the multi-touch seem?
[21:49] <jcastro> ok, I can add a link to those in the thread
[21:50] <Nafai> I'm interested in the multi-touch stuff, especially when the Lenovo U1 hybrid netbook comes out :)
[21:50] <bryceh> jcastro, 563277 is the kernel one where we blacklist everything
[21:50] <bryceh> rickspencer3, on windows it's ok
[21:50] <bryceh> rickspencer3, windows really sucks though, and I'm not just saying that out of bias
[21:51] <jcastro> bryceh: yeah, given the tone of the thread I wonder if sending people there will get you real help or people just complaining
[21:51] <bryceh> it's *noticeably* slower and seems really cluttered and hard to find things
[21:51] <bryceh> jcastro, ok well I don't want a larger peanut gallery
[21:51] <jcastro> ok I won't link it then
[21:51] <bryceh> jcastro, tomato throwers not welcomed ;-)
[21:51] <rickspencer3> bryceh, that's because they have like 2 buildings of teams who make features that have to be crammed in ;)
[21:52] <Nafai> rickspencer3: and I bet none of them are half as productive as the guys on our team :)
[21:53] <rickspencer3> speaking of which ..
[21:53]  * rickspencer3 whip cracking noises
[21:53] <rickspencer3> Nafai BT indicator?
[21:53] <rickspencer3> (I assume you knew I was going to ask ;) )
[21:54] <Nafai> I'm adding all of the current details that I have to the bug right now so I can speak with ted about it :)
[21:54] <rickspencer3> Nafai final freeze makes today pretty much the last day to get that puppy fixed
[21:54] <Nafai> of course
[21:54] <Nafai> ok
[21:54] <rickspencer3> :)
[21:54] <bryceh> rickspencer3, I've gotten spoiled I think with the boot speed and installation speed and graphics speed and... guess I'm a speed freak
[21:54] <bryceh> otoh I suppose I can play games more
[21:54] <bryceh> well, if I had any freetime
[21:55] <Nafai> bryceh: You're not working hard enough if you have freetime :)
[21:56] <rickspencer3> bryce, will this bug:
[21:56] <rickspencer3> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/563277
[21:56] <rickspencer3> also explain why 3d is turned off?
[21:59] <Nafai> sweet.  a friend just bought one of the new i7 17" Mac Book Pro's and he put Ubuntu on it.  The only thing not working out of the box on it so far is bluetooth
[22:01] <bryceh> rickspencer3, no, it's just for KMS
[22:01] <rickspencer3> bryceh, perhaps I should similarly comment on the bugs where we will "fix" them but turning of 3d?
[22:02] <bryceh> ok
[22:02] <bryceh> rickspencer3,  lp #541511 #541492 #542208 #511001
[22:07] <bryceh> rickspencer3, you know one thing I've been noticing a lot
[22:07] <bryceh> you know how I've gone on about defect report vs. tech support request
[22:08] <rickspencer3> yes
[22:08] <bryceh> I am noticing more and more that many of the X bug reports are really primarily support requests
[22:08] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[22:08] <rickspencer3> turn them into questions?
[22:08] <rickspencer3> and move on
[22:08] <bryceh> like, they'd be happy to see a defect get fixed, but what they're really looking for is handholding to get their system operational
[22:09] <bryceh> rickspencer3, unfortunately launchpad just gave me error messages when I tried that
[22:09] <seb128> bryceh, we will turn of the "report a bug" lpi item in lucid but I guess it doesn't make a different in your count since none of those point to xorg sources
[22:09] <rickspencer3> maybe we should close them as "invalid" and point them to the wiki?
[22:09] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yeah that's what I've been doing
[22:09] <bryceh> they get *quite* testy at that though, so not sure it's the best solution
[22:09] <seb128> bryceh, it's interesting to see that those users are technical enough to file a bug on xorg but not enough to see it's not a bug report
[22:10] <bryceh> I also updated http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting to make it even clearer
[22:10] <bryceh> seb128, well to them they think it is a bug report
[22:10] <bryceh> as in, they think it's not because they've done something wrong
[22:10] <bryceh> er I should say
[22:11] <seb128> it's a bit tricky
[22:11] <bryceh> they know Ubuntu should "just work" and it doesn't, so they feel it's a bug in Ubuntu
[22:11] <seb128> I'm wondering if we should just flag all those as question in the support tracker
[22:12] <seb128> I've been doing that for quite some bugs when I was still trying to triage everything
[22:12] <seb128> which I gave up on doing since
[22:12]  * didrocks waves goodnight
[22:12] <bryceh> seb128, yeah it's a tough problem.  I'm thinking a lot about it
[22:13] <seb128> as I said for a while I want a "I don't care" or "not useful in the current status" button
[22:13] <bryceh> maybe it's just that we need another person doing triage of X bugs
[22:13] <seb128> which would take the bug out of the bug list
[22:13] <zyga> seb128, bryceh: what about asking users to move that stuff into a forum?
[22:13] <bryceh> "not useful in the current status" would be awesome
[22:13] <seb128> until somebody helps the submitter to be in a state where is can be bounced back
[22:13] <zyga> so that bugs != support requests
[22:13] <bryceh> zyga, maybe
[22:14] <bryceh> one point I've found useful to mention is this...
[22:14] <seb128> zyga, well, often they are really issue where they need somebody to help them to get in useful state
[22:14] <seb128> like get a stacktrace for a crash
[22:14] <seb128> or get debug logs
[22:14] <zyga> bryceh: I used redmine for a while and it has definable trackers with definable workflows, one of the good stuff it is that you can have a "support request" tracker
[22:14] <zyga> and move "bugs" that are not bugs there easily
[22:14] <seb128> launchpad has an answer tracker
[22:14] <zyga> and have separate people deal with that
[22:15] <seb128> and you can change bugs to questions in 2 clicks
[22:15] <bryceh> "Ubuntu does have both paid and volunteer staff who do technical support, however they have their own tools for tracking support requests, and do not frequent the bug tracker.  The bug tracker is really just for tracking defects in the Ubuntu product under development."
[22:15] <zyga> bryceh: where did you get that quote from?
[22:15] <bryceh> zyga, I made it up myself
[22:15] <zyga> bryceh: maybe it should <blink><marque> before submitting a bug for first-time users
[22:16] <bryceh> I think people have gotten too accustomed to going to the bug tracker whenever they have a technical problem
[22:16] <rickspencer3> bryceh, how does this look?
[22:16] <rickspencer3> http://paste.ubuntu.com/414542/
[22:16] <zyga> bryceh: how about "I'm a developer" button in launchpad that *triggers* bug reporting on
[22:16] <zyga> bryceh: and for other users only the forum and questions would be available?
[22:17] <seb128> I'm not sure the issue will be solved at submit time
[22:17] <bryceh> and unfortunately they don't take the time to write a good defect report, it's more of a "Ubuntu doesn't work, I don't know why" level of description
[22:17] <seb128> we need a way to flag a bug with one click as "not useful in the current state"
[22:17] <seb128> and have those out of the maintainers lists
[22:17] <rickspencer3> *cough* bughugger plugin *cough*
[22:18] <bryceh> rickspencer3, looks good
[22:18] <bryceh> rickspencer3, might want to say "regressons" rather than "regression" since it feels like there may be multiple issues
[22:18] <seb128> rickspencer3, bughugger doesn't really help there, it needs to be flagged on the server side so other team members don't see it either
[22:18] <rickspencer3> ok
[22:18] <bryceh> also, have to admit that even with karmic life with 8xx was not perfect either
[22:18] <rickspencer3> bryceh, mmm
[22:18] <bryceh> but the way you've written it is good
[22:19] <rickspencer3> I'll such catch the regressions change and move on
[22:19] <rickspencer3> I think it's good to be transparent here
[22:19] <bryceh> zyga, that'd be nice.  Sort of like a "Your karma must be *this high* to report a bug in Ubuntu" ;-)
[22:19] <zyga> bryceh: karma is not a good idea, a declarative statement would be better
[22:19] <rickspencer3> bryceh, but you could have your own "your karma must be this high for me to care" filter
[22:20] <bryceh> rickspencer3, in fact I already do
[22:20] <bryceh> rickspencer3, unfortunately adding lookups to filter by karma makes scripts take a Lonnnggg time to run
[22:20] <zyga> bryceh: I think it's kind of like having a first-wave filtering from "whatever user typed" into a internal bug tracker for developers
[22:20] <rickspencer3> seb128, would you button not set the bugs as incomplete and add a tag?
[22:20] <rickspencer3> bryceh, yes
[22:21] <rickspencer3> I am finding that server side performance of certain operations severely hampers my bug triaging strategies
[22:21] <rickspencer3> :/
[22:21] <seb128> rickspencer3, incomplete no, there is some understanding that when saying the bug incomplete you should also give details on what you need
[22:21] <bryceh> rickspencer3, I've got a launchpad-gm-script stock reply that says, "Not enough information has been provided to troubleshoot.  See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting for instructions on reporting X issues." and closes the bug as invalid
[22:21]  * kenvandine heads out, bbl
[22:21] <seb128> rickspencer3, and I don't want to spend 5 minutes explaining how to get debug logs or stacktrace on every bug, I just want to get those out of my way
[22:21] <bryceh> and another that says, "I'm not sure I totally understand your description of the problem.  Could you please elaborate and clarify?  You may find it helpful to read "How to report bugs effectively" http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html or the Ubuntu-X bug reporting guidelines at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting ." that marks incomplete,
[22:22] <bryceh> I use the former for where the bug reporter literally just said "something's broke, I dunno!"
[22:22] <bryceh> (we get bug reports like that surprisingly often)
[22:22] <seb128> brb
[22:22] <bryceh> and I use the latter where the bug reporter tried to report a bug but just didn't describe the trouble they had
[22:23] <bryceh> ok back to work
[22:39] <Nafai> doh
[22:39] <Nafai> bluetooth does work on my friend's i7 MBP.  He just didn't think it did because of the BT indicator being broken :/
[23:32] <RAOF> Good morning.
[23:33] <rickspencer3> hi RAOF
[23:33] <RAOF> Frustrating that disabling 3D isn't enough.
[23:33] <rickspencer3> it wasn't?
[23:33] <rickspencer3> RAOF, did it help at all?
[23:35] <RAOF> rickspencer3: That was the discussion above with bryceh, right?
[23:35] <rickspencer3> well ...
[23:35] <rickspencer3> I didn't quite follow
[23:35] <rickspencer3> I am not that smart
[23:36] <rickspencer3> but I guess, yeah
[23:36] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yeah we were just talking about it a couple hours ago silly ;-)(
[23:36] <rickspencer3> well, I didn't know that you got feedback that the no-DRI patch was insufficient
[23:36] <bryceh> RAOF, yeah several people report it didn't solve it
[23:36] <rickspencer3> that's f*cked up
[23:36] <rickspencer3> I hope no-KMS fixes it
[23:37] <rickspencer3> well, mitigates, anyway
[23:37] <RAOF> There are reports on the bug that no-kms makes it worse :(
[23:37] <rickspencer3> oh fudge
[23:37] <bryceh> RAOF, I didn't buy that guy's response
[23:38] <rickspencer3> well ... we have limited wiggle room here
[23:38] <rickspencer3> so turn off the features that we can, and get ready for an SRU I guess
[23:38] <RAOF> bryceh: Fair enough.
[23:39] <RAOF> Perhaps we should actually bump all the way down to vesa?
[23:39] <bryceh> rickspencer3, fwiw I'm browsing through bug reports about this chipset against karmic, and see that the lockups also existed then
[23:39] <bryceh> RAOF, that's what I'm wondering too
[23:39] <rickspencer3> hmm
[23:40] <bryceh> RAOF, one reason that I +1'd doing the no-KMS was to give us that option
[23:40] <rickspencer3> bumping to vesa seems quite extreme
[23:40] <bryceh> rickspencer3, agreed
[23:40] <rickspencer3> can we save that for the bitter end?
[23:40] <bryceh> rickspencer3, yes
[23:40] <rickspencer3> and bryceh, are you suggesting that stability may not, in fact, be worse for Lucid?
[23:40] <rickspencer3> maybe just our telemetry is better?
[23:40] <bryceh> rickspencer3, that's correct
[23:40] <RAOF> Actually... couldn't we keep kms, and bump down to fbdev?
[23:41] <rickspencer3> but KMS is of limited value, really
[23:41] <bryceh> RAOF, would that give much functional difference?
[23:41] <RAOF> bryceh: They'd get proper modesetting
[23:41] <rickspencer3> meh
[23:41] <rickspencer3> if you end up on a simple framebuffer, mode setting would be the least of your worries, right?
[23:41] <RAOF> I mean, they'd get the native res of whatever they're running on, whether or not it's a VESA mode.
[23:41] <bryceh> RAOF, does it support HD resolutions? or is it also just the usual vesa resolutions?
[23:42] <bryceh> RAOF, hmm
[23:42] <RAOF> bryceh: It'll use whatever intelfb set up.
[23:42]  * rickspencer3 shudders
[23:42] <bryceh> RAOF, well I feel somewhat safer with vesa just since it's been a known quantity
[23:42] <rickspencer3> yeah
[23:42] <RAOF> bryceh: Yeah.  That's true.
[23:42] <rickspencer3> if we are screwing the users functionality for stability purposes ...
[23:42] <rickspencer3> let's make sure we deliver something that is known stable
[23:43] <RAOF> If this were earlier we could test fbdev.  We know vesa will work.
[23:43] <bryceh> also, with -vesa, we can make adjustments in userspace, whereas for fbdev changes need to be done through the kernel so there'd be some lag as to when we could roll out fixes
[23:43] <rickspencer3> urg
[23:43] <rickspencer3> nice that there is a back up plan
[23:43] <rickspencer3> if we fall back to vesa, what can we offer users who don't like that trade-off?
[23:43] <rickspencer3> some PPA or such to use other drivers?
[23:44] <rickspencer3> can they add on xorg.conf to load something different, etc...?
[23:44] <RAOF> Right.
[23:44] <bryceh> well, if we set vesa as the default, users can always turn intel back on just by adding a line to xorg.conf
[23:44] <rickspencer3> that seems easy to document
[23:44] <RAOF> Yeah.  We'd fallback to vesa by removing intel from the default driver list in xserver, right bryceh?
[23:45] <RAOF> (For those chips)
[23:45] <bryceh> fbdev it'd be similarly straightforward to go back via i915.modeset=1, just the opposite of what we're having them do now
[23:45] <bryceh> RAOF, right
[23:45] <rickspencer3> or we can send them a link to newegg
[23:45] <bryceh> hehe
[23:45] <rickspencer3> and they can buy a i9xx chip for like $30
[23:45] <rickspencer3> :/
[23:46] <RAOF> No they can't.  Intel don't make pluggable hardware :)
[23:46] <bryceh> well, they'd need to buy a new laptop
[23:46] <rickspencer3> of course, that's only funny if you have $30
[23:46] <bryceh> so $300
[23:46] <rickspencer3> stupid integrated chips
[23:46] <rickspencer3> :/
[23:46] <bryceh> indeed
[23:46] <rickspencer3> anyway, it wasn't a funny joke to start
[23:46] <rickspencer3> :P
[23:46] <bryceh> it's actually kind of ironic we have better support on older nvidia and ati cards
[23:46] <bryceh> since those are fairly trivial to replace
[23:47] <rickspencer3> some people use Ubuntu because they can't afford new hardware and certain "other" OSs don;'t care about them
[23:47]  * bryceh mumbles something inappropriate about Intel
[23:47] <RAOF> Sarvatt was saying that these 8xx chips don't get 3D under Vista or win 7, either.
[23:47]  * rickspencer3 pretends not to hear
[23:47] <rickspencer3> oh?
[23:47] <rickspencer3> interesting
[23:48]  * rickspencer3 needs a snack
[23:48] <rickspencer3> brb
[23:48] <bryceh> me too
[23:48]  * RAOF looks at the mournfully empty fridge and realises with terror that he ground the last of the coffee beans *yesterday*
[23:51] <TheMuso> Good morning.
[23:51] <Nafai> RAOF: heh, that's the problem with this job.  The break room here is woefully understocked compared to my last job :)
[23:52] <RAOF> At least I'll soon have an actual room to work in.  Right now I'm wedged in a corner of the living room behind the washing!
[23:52] <Nafai> yeah, that's no fun
[23:52] <Nafai> I finally got myself a proper office chair
[23:54] <RAOF> That's well worth the investment.
[23:54] <TheMuso> Nafai: Good idea. I got myself a good office chair before starting at Canonical, but I am glad I do have one.
[23:55] <Nafai> it's not quite the $400 chair I had at my last job, but still much better than what I had
[23:59] <bryceh> I need to get a new chair