[00:02] <Nafai> but 0.0.16-0ubuntu2 worked as desired
[00:02]  * Nafai tries again
[00:12] <Nafai> Yup, it's in 0.0.17-0ubuntu1
[00:12]  * Nafai boggles
[00:15] <Nafai> tedg: So...check out ^
[04:13] <tedg> Nafai: Did you logout out and in again after downgrading to 0.0.16?
[04:13] <tedg> Nafai: Since it uses a different name on the bus
[04:13] <tedg> Nafai: It might be falling back to using the notification area
[04:14] <tedg> Nafai: Instead of using the indicator framework.
[09:11] <hyperair> vish++
[09:11] <hyperair> (regarding window-button-order issue)
[09:12] <hyperair> vish: have you ever triggered the window menu by mistake in earlier versions of ubuntu?
[09:13] <vish> hyperair: i might have but i dont really recall , as it wasnt as destructive as closing
[09:14] <hyperair> vish: good point. i was just thinking i don't recall hitting the window menu before
[09:15] <vish> hyperair: IMO , everyone just gave up trying to reason out.. and the end loss is going to be the end-user , since *we* failed reason out well enough
[09:16] <thorwil> vish: i'd think that you are a highly skilled mouse or touchpad user. if you hit Close instead of File repeatedly, I would assume it can only be worse for less trained users
[09:17] <vish> thorwil: surely
[09:17] <hyperair> agreed.
[09:17] <hyperair> especially for an aunt of mine whose cursor quivers as it moves slowly across the screen
[09:17] <hyperair> (she seems almost scared of the mouse)
[09:21] <vish> thorwil: sad to see ivanka getting blamed for this though ;) >  https://twitter.com/azaaza/status/11712409316
[09:23] <seb128> it's easy enough to change the theme
[09:23] <thorwil> vish: i take that comment to be referring to the language of that blog post, not the decision
[09:23] <seb128> I can't believe people argue so much about buttons
[09:24] <thorwil> seb128: i can't believe there are still people who apparently don't think things should be set up save and sane out of the box
[09:25] <seb128> it's a freaking button order
[09:25] <seb128> what is not sve?
[09:25] <seb128> save
[09:26] <seb128> it took me like a day to got used to move the mouse in the other corner
[09:27] <hyperair> seb128: i'm curious. isn't the button order a gconf thing?
[09:27] <hyperair> seb128: changing the theme isn't going to change the button order, is it?
[09:28] <vish> seb128: yup , easy for me to change.. and i did ;)  but the question is the default and when we install for non-technical users do we change it for others as well..
[09:28] <vish> anyways , i dont expect any change , was just giving a feedback .. 
[09:29] <hyperair> frankly speaking, i don't care about any UI stupidity that our UX guys commit, as long as i can disable it (think update-manager starting up automatically, notify-osd spawning in the middle of the screen for some time in karmic)
[09:29] <seb128> hyperair, it is
[09:29] <seb128> hyperair, it does, we made the capplet does that
[09:30] <hyperair> seb128: ah that is cool.
[09:30] <seb128> hyperair, the order by default for theme is the old one and can be overwriten in the theme index
[09:30] <seb128> hyperair, the new theme overwrite it
[09:30] <hyperair> seb128: cool. i didn't think that had been done.
[09:30] <seb128> so any other theme if you select it will still use the old order
[09:31] <hyperair> that's nice.
[09:31] <hyperair> i suppose it'd break some themes that depend on the order of buttons
[09:31] <hyperair> if not done that way, i mean
[09:31] <vish> hyperair: it was made configurable for a while
[09:32] <vish> rather , since a while ago*
[09:32] <hyperair> vish: oh so that was actually implemented. i thought just remained a suggestion.
[09:32] <hyperair> s/thought just/thought it just/
[09:33] <seb128> vish, I'm curious to know why you changed the order btw
[09:33] <seb128> vish, did you try to get used to the new one?
[09:35] <vish> seb128: yes, i did use both the positions/order and the close on the left was more of a problem for me , hence i sent the feedback > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg01271.html
[09:36] <vish> i end-up hitting the close instead of the file menu :s
[09:36] <vish> i probably should slow down ;p
[09:36]  * hyperair uses keyboards for menu navigation
[09:36] <hyperair> er keyboard
[09:36] <hyperair> alt+control character ftw.
[09:37] <seb128> I never clicked on close instead of file there they don't seem that close to each other
[09:37] <vish> seb128: i didnt think others had a problem until i saw popey 's tweet
[09:37] <seb128> I'm not going to argue about whatever order is better anyway, I'm easy and got used to the new one
[09:38] <seb128> it's just crazy that some people argue so much about such a detail
[09:38] <popey> people clearly have nothing better to do :)
[09:38]  * hyperair mumbles about how seb128 never finds any issue about any big UI change
[09:38] <seb128> I think people just have jerk reaction to change
[09:39] <hyperair> i think some people do
[09:39] <seb128> jerk is probably not the word I was looking for there
[09:39] <hyperair> knee-jerk
[09:39] <seb128> right
[09:39] <seb128> thanks ;-)
[09:39] <vish> seb128: surely a lot of people do have the knee-jerk reaction ;)
[09:39] <hyperair> but i believe my application indicator concerns are valid.
[09:39] <seb128> they get used to some details
[09:39] <hyperair> at the very least, when i first heard of the application indicators, i thought it was a good thing. a *very* good thing.
[09:39] <popey> to be fair when i clicked the red x by accident it was first thing in the morning, not had coffee yet. still annoying :)
[09:40] <hyperair> and then... tooltips disappeared.
[09:40] <popey> and its the first time I've done it
[09:40] <hyperair> and scrollwheel motions disappeared.
[09:40] <hyperair> and application indicators in my eyes dropped all the way from positive to negative.
[09:40] <seb128> do you really need those details? or did you get used to it
[09:41] <vish> popey: surely, we aernt naive users , but even we make/made those mistakes ;p 
[09:41] <seb128> I was using some but after a while I changed my workflow and I'm happy with indicators too
[09:41] <hyperair> seb128: i use those details frequently, yes.
[09:41] <seb128> right, but you use those because you need those?
[09:41] <seb128> or just because you got used to mouseover some icons when bored and see your album cover this way or whatever
[09:42] <hyperair> seb128: my use case was more like.. i have a lot of songs in my library that i don't want to listen to at the moment, so i move my mouse over the tray icon, let the tooltip appear, and then start scrolling until i find somethign i want to listen to.
[09:42] <hyperair> seb128: or i suddenly hear something i haven't heard in a long time and want to check the artist/title/album of the song as i had forgotten.
[09:42] <seb128> set a key to switch track on your keyboard if you don't have a multimedia keyboard
[09:42] <seb128> and do next and read the notify-osd bubble until happy?
[09:43] <seb128> that's what I mean by workflow changes
[09:43] <seb128> you for sure have way to do most of the things you were doing
[09:43] <seb128> you just decided your old way was the only handy one
[09:43] <hyperair> seb128: point taken, for that particular use case. i can probably get used to that.
[09:43] <seb128> if you really trying to find a new way rather than fight change you might find there is one as good
[09:43] <hyperair> seb128: what about the other one i pointed out?
[09:44] <hyperair> seb128: i still believe using the first item of the indicator menus as a non-triggerable, status display is an abuse of the menu.
[09:44] <seb128> the artist title is in the menu
[09:44] <seb128> it's one click further than the tooltip right
[09:44] <seb128> but it's not end of the world
[09:45] <seb128> well I don't want to spend the day arguing
[09:45] <hyperair> seb128: that's it for textual tooltips. there's also seeking..
[09:45] <seb128> you probably have valid concerns
[09:45] <seb128> and some of those indicators need to become better next cycle
[09:45] <seb128> but I think lot of the angry comments are knee-jerk reactions
[09:46] <seb128> I think the bluetooth applet and the sound indicator are nice
[09:46] <hyperair> "probably have valid concerns", concerns that other users probably have that they don't feel like voicing out because of the shutup-or-i'll-ignore-you attitude UX team has.
[09:46] <seb128> the current indicators are probably a bit limited for the music player case
[09:46] <vish> +1 for the music players
[09:46] <hyperair> indeed.
[09:47] <seb128> I still think the direction is good and that it will get there
[09:47] <seb128> I don't think you need to know about middle click on scroolwhell actions to use icons
[09:47] <seb128> but let's see what they come with next cycle ;-)
[09:47] <hyperair> heh
[09:47] <vish> -1 on hyperair's middle-click ;p
[09:47]  * vish runs
[09:48]  * hyperair throws tomatoes at vish 
[09:48] <seb128> anyway enough chatting, let's get some work done ;-)
[09:49] <hyperair> vish: well i suppose i shouldn't put so much effort into it considering i've got my own workarounds for the things i use most often (pidgin has ctrl+shift+g to activate the buddy list via dbus bound in compiz, banshee has... gnome-do to activate it, and so on)
[09:50] <hyperair> ohoho sabdfl has considered it for UDS.
[09:50] <hyperair> now if only i didn't have exams and could attend...
[10:22] <thorwil> vish: i wonder if having a hover effect on menus would reduce the likelihood of the Close-instead-of-File error
[10:56] <vish> thorwil: hmm , not sure how that solves the proximity issue , what can be done is add a bit of friction before the pointer moves past the menubar
[10:57] <vish> there was such a method i noticed somewhere, need to find the link
[10:58] <thorwil> vish: it should give a you a better feel for the target area, so you might be satisfied hitting it closer to the edge
[10:59] <thorwil> vish: try http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/search;jsessionid=EF8A9A2EE03183E9E392C38AB9C208F0?q=steering+task&submit=Search&sort=rel
[10:59] <vish> thorwil: maybe , but i dont think we can get something like that hover effect implemented :)
[10:59] <thorwil> vish: "steering task" is just my suggestion for a search term, there might be a better one
[11:00] <thorwil> vish: i consider it a defect of gtk that there is none on mneus
[11:00] <thorwil> menus, even
[11:01] <vish> thorwil: i like the hover effect though ;)  but had a tough time explaining in getting it implemented in software center categories,  i can only imagine it tougher for the menus..
[11:03] <thorwil> it's pretty much a general must for making the interface feel more or most responsive
[11:25] <godbyk> thorwil, vish: what you really need is haptic feedback. ;-)
[11:27] <vish> godbyk: there is way to detect intent of the mouse movement , if the mouse is moving fast it will move past the threshold and if it is slowing moving towards the target it will stop at the constraint , i forgot what it is actually called and the link :/
[11:29] <godbyk> vish: In the 90s, some Windows mouse drivers had a feature where you the mouse pointer was attracted to buttons.
[11:30] <godbyk> The most often-used feature was to have the mouse pointer be centered over the default button when a new dialog appeared.
[11:30] <vish> godbyk: that is there even now , something called "jump to default button" or likewise
[11:31] <godbyk> The buttons had a certain gravity and higher 'viscosity'.  So the mouse pointer was attracted to them and would slow down as you dragged the mouse pointer across them.
[11:49] <thorwil> godbyk: apparently it didn't catch on
[11:50] <godbyk> thorwil: Not so much.  I think most of the people that tried it didn't really understand the reasoning behind it, so to them it was just getting in the way.
[16:37] <mpt> jcastro!
[16:50] <mpt> jcastro, I have a bad feeling about bug 497878
[16:50] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 497878 in ibus (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Support Application Indicators (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497878
[16:52] <mpt> jcastro, if the previous notification area item was showing the icon for the current input method, and the indicator menu does not (it just shows the keyboard icon all the time), that'll be a nasty regression
[16:52] <mpt> I'm just heading into 9.10 to see if the notification area item worked that way, bbiab
[17:27] <mpt> jcastro?
[17:38] <MarkieMark1> Hi I'm looking at writing patches for indicator-applet, indicator-applet-session, I've managed to ./configure then make indicator-applet-session, well more precisely the project 'indicator-session' producing 2 binaries called 'indicator-session-service', 'gtk-logout-helper', no sign of the 'indicator-applet-session' found normally in /usr/lib after installation of the .deb? As for indicator-applet, neither autoconf nor automake seems to h
[17:38] <MarkieMark1> ave had favorable results, is there a preliminary build command I need?
[17:40] <djsiegel> DanRabbit1: seg|ars vish MDC1 popey rickspencer3 MacSlow: http://twitter.com/davidsiegel/status/12232246242
[17:40] <djsiegel> please retweet!
[17:40] <djsiegel> woohoo!
[17:41] <MarkieMark1> in fact now looking at the result of apt-cache search indicator-applet it says indicator-applet-session is simply a clone of indicator-applet? So I really simply need to write a patch for indicator-applet to arrange the rotations
[17:41] <MacSlow> djsiegel, that's wicked!
[17:41] <MarkieMark1> vish I think you've looked at that already?
[17:42] <MacSlow> djsiegel, done
[17:42] <djsiegel> thanks!
[17:43] <MacSlow> yw
[17:43] <Nafai> tedg: Good point.
[17:43] <vish> MarkieMark1: tedg or bratsche are the folks who can help with that one..
[17:44] <MarkieMark1> it's not so much the coding that troubles me as how to build indicator-applet
[17:44] <tedg> MarkieMark1: All of the indicator-applet-* are built from the same source package.
[17:45] <tedg> MacSlow: You can grab the source: bzr branch lp:indicator-applet
[17:45] <MarkieMark1> tedg, sounds right; I've already got the code
[17:45] <tedg> Heh, MacSlow sorry.  I mean MarkieMark1
[17:45] <MarkieMark1> I noticed :)
[17:45] <MacSlow> tedg, oh...hehe... yeah... it's working :)
[17:45] <MarkieMark1> no sign of a configure file though
[17:46] <tedg> MarkieMark1: You need to run ./autogen.sh
[17:47] <MarkieMark1> tedg that looks much better thanks :)
[17:55] <Nafai> tedg: regarding your comment earlier, do I need to log out and back in or just restart indication-session?
[17:55] <tedg> Nafai: You should just need to restart indicator-application-service -- but I'd recommend logging out and in because of the dbus activation stuff.
[17:56] <Nafai> ok, thanks
[18:04] <jcastro> mpt: sorry I was at lunch, looking now
[18:04] <jcastro> hmm, so what does it do in 9.10?
[19:32] <atrus> any reports of the indicator going kind of nuts and taking up cpu?
[19:33] <qense> atrus: not that I'm aware of
[19:33] <atrus> indicator-sound, gnome-panel, indicator-applet, all taking up about 100% cpu currently. wondering if there's anything i should try to look at/document before killing things.
[19:42] <atrus> ah, it was freaking out about not being able to contact pulseaudio, because the network tunnel it needed was broken.
[21:23] <MDC1> djsiegel ,haha, congrats!
[21:24] <MDC1> oh.. he left :) congrats anyway :)