[22:59] <dutchie> humphreybc: I am now
[23:00] <humphreybc> groovy
[23:00] <ubuntujenkins> hello humphreybc
[23:00] <humphreybc> it's 2200 UTC so let's kick off!
[23:00] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, no. Disembodied comment!
[23:00] <humphreybc> #startmeeting
[23:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is humphreybc.
[23:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:00] <humphreybc> now where's that pad
[23:00] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[23:00] <humphreybc> so here's the agenda
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ This one?
[23:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ This one?
[23:01] <humphreybc> here's the pad we'll be using that godbyk and I prepared earlier
[23:01] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
[23:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
[23:01] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: wrong meeting :-)
[23:01] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: nope that'll be for the Quickshot meeting in 22 hours :P
[23:01] <Red_HamsterX> ...Oh.
[23:01] <dutchie> humphreybc: you know you can get nice URLs by going to them when you create the pad?
[23:02] <humphreybc> yep
[23:02] <humphreybc> you just type in the URL you want
[23:02] <dutchie> just checking :)
[23:02] <humphreybc> I only do it if I can think of a good URL :P
[23:02] <humphreybc> okay okay
[23:02] <humphreybc> who's actually here?
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> o/
[23:02]  * godbyk waves
[23:03] <godbyk> (until my Internet dies again.)
[23:03] <humphreybc> if it's just the core players, we can skip some of the stuff we already know (like branch organization) because we did it
[23:03] <humphreybc> so take a look at that pad
[23:03] <godbyk> might be good to cover it just to be sure.
[23:03] <humphreybc> okay
[23:04] <humphreybc> well, basically, godbyk correct me if i'm wrong but there's the main branch which has the translations, there's a lucid-e2 branch which has the stuff we're working on for 2nd edition and there's a maverick branch which has the maverick stuff
[23:04] <dutchie> there are lucid-e1 and -e2 branches, and a maverick one
[23:04] <humphreybc> ah okay
[23:04] <humphreybc> and development focus is lucid-e2?
[23:04] <dutchie> yes
[23:05] <dutchie> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[23:05] <godbyk> though if you pull lp:ubuntu-manual, you'll get lucid-e1
[23:05] <dutchie> will you?
[23:05] <godbyk> dutchie: yeah.
[23:05] <humphreybc> neat. so the plan is (pretty obviously) to keep the translators working on lucid-e1 undisturbed while other people can fix bugs and add new stuff for lucid-e2
[23:05] <humphreybc> what are we going to do about translations for lucid-e2?
[23:05] <dutchie> looks like the other branches could do with a merge
[23:06] <dutchie> leave it as-is for now, then make a big noise when we freeze
[23:06] <humphreybc> godbyk and I sort of came up with July 29th as a date for the 2nd edition of lucid to be released
[23:06] <humphreybc> it's exactly halfway between lucid and maverick
[23:07] <dutchie> seems a bit late to me
[23:07] <humphreybc> Mmm. The idea is to have a 100% error free manual, we'll probably need 3 months to do that
[23:08] <dutchie> there's always the Last Bug
[23:08] <ubuntujenkins> would we be adding content?
[23:08] <humphreybc> especially since it's an LTS we shouldn't rush the manual... which actually brings me onto point releases
[23:08] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: shouldn't be
[23:08] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: very selectively actually
[23:08] <humphreybc> for example if we find something that's missing that we think is pretty important (Wubi for example?) we should add a section on that
[23:09] <humphreybc> but we don't want to go all out adding new crap willy nilly
[23:09] <dutchie> do we not mention wubi?
[23:09] <humphreybc> nah it got dropped at the last minute
[23:09]  * ubuntujenkins dont start me on that dutchie 
[23:09] <ubuntujenkins> ooo yey
[23:09] <humphreybc> so that's something we'll just have to file bugs for and assign to people
[23:09] <humphreybc> looks like godbyk's internet died
[23:09] <dutchie> not sure if we need a wubi section, but that's a whole different conversation
[23:10] <humphreybc> so new content for lucid-e2 will be very chosen with great consideration. Emphasis is on bug fixing.
[23:10] <ubuntujenkins> I am happy to deal with bugs, if we need help
[23:10] <humphreybc> ok
[23:11] <humphreybc> so godbyk's added the next meeting thing, "Game plan for release of lucid 1st edition"
[23:11] <dutchie> cough[TOPIC]cough
[23:11] <godbyk_> [I'm on the neighbor's wifi now. Stupid ISP!]
[23:11] <humphreybc> haha!
[23:11] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lucid 1st edition
[23:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid 1st edition
[23:11] <humphreybc> happy now? :P
[23:12] <dutchie> :)
[23:12] <ubuntujenkins> what time does the website timer say it is released?
[23:12] <dutchie> midnight iirc
[23:12] <daker> dutchie, +1
[23:13] <humphreybc> okay so this is what's going to happen, in about 3 days we'll freeze translations (eek!). Then we'll take the ones that have finished and godbyk will do some final editing to check latex has arranged everything properly in the translations. We'll build the final build, godbyk will upload them to lulu.com so they can be processed and available for order on the 29th
[23:13] <humphreybc> about 30 minutes before the website releases, we will replace the countdown timer page with the stock home page
[23:14] <ubuntujenkins> I am not sure the translators will finish in three days.
[23:14] <humphreybc> now, we have to have some options for languages as right now we don't have a way to check the language in the browser
[23:14] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: yeah, they probably won't. As the translations are completed, we'll release them
[23:14] <ubuntujenkins> Galician and greman might do it
[23:14] <humphreybc> so we may just end up releasing the english version on the 29th
[23:14] <godbyk_> so it doesn't make much since to freeze the translations, right?
[23:15] <godbyk_> just let them keep working at it until they've finished?
[23:15] <ubuntujenkins> I think that makes more sense
[23:15] <humphreybc> godbyk_: er, yes :P
[23:15] <humphreybc> so cancel what I said haha
[23:15] <humphreybc> it would be nice to get german and spanish done for the first release
[23:16] <humphreybc> i'll see if I can get some people (cough popey) to post some stuff on the planet
[23:16] <dutchie> I'm sure some en_GB support could be drummed up
[23:16]  * popey hands humphreybc some expectorant for his sore throat
[23:16] <dutchie> godbyk is growing underscores
[23:16]  * godbyk__ wonders how many underscores I can tack on..
[23:16] <humphreybc> once again, cough-popey-can-talk-about-the-english-GB-translations-on-the-next-uk-loco-podcast-and-act-like-james-may-in-james-may's-toy-stories-to-get-the-public-helping
[23:17] <popey> email podcast@ubuntu-uk.org and we will
[23:17] <dutchie> or even leave a voicemail :)
[23:17] <popey> or that!
[23:17] <humphreybc> okay, the email might be something along the lines of "OMG WE NEED YOUR HELP TO TRANSLATE THE MANUAL INTO EN_GB PLEASE MENTION IT ON THE SHOW BYE!"
[23:17]  * dutchie for one would love to hear humphreybc's comic NZ accent
[23:18] <humphreybc> dutchie, you'll hear it soon enough!
[23:18] <dutchie> when you remember to get up for your uupc interview?
[23:18] <humphreybc> lol
[23:18] <godbyk__> dutchie: s/when/if/
[23:18] <humphreybc> the FCM one is coming out soon I think, but I was referring to the launch of the OMG! Ubuntu! podcast ;)
[23:19] <humphreybc> (it would help if the uupc guys recorded in the morning, which would be evening my time :P )
[23:19]  * humphreybc is not a morning person, if anyone has gathered 
[23:19] <popey> excuses excuses
[23:19] <humphreybc> anyway, back to topic!!
[23:19] <humphreybc> so everyone is happy with the way that's going to work?
[23:20] <dutchie> sounds fine here
[23:20] <ubuntujenkins> yep
[23:20] <humphreybc> daker, all good with the website plans?
[23:20]  * godbyk__ will have to read the meeting transcript to see what he keeps missing. :-)
[23:20] <daker> :)
[23:20] <humphreybc> i'm not sure if there's a whole heap of point in having automatic translation recognition and download when we only have, say, 3 languages at present
[23:20] <daker> so iam working right now on the website
[23:21] <dutchie> godbyk__: just do the sensible thing and run an irssi instance in screen on a server :)
[23:21] <godbyk__> dutchie: heh, I may just have to do that. :)
[23:21] <humphreybc> so perhaps we can just have a combo box to select language until we have enough to justify automatically detecting one (slash we actually write the code to automatically detect it)
[23:22] <humphreybc> that's the ultimate goal though, someone goes to our website, they speak Ancient Greek, it auto-detects the browser language and downloads the correct Ancient Greek translation
[23:22] <humphreybc> daker, how are website translations going?
[23:22] <daker> they are mostly very good
[23:22] <humphreybc> we'll also need a note on the front page near the downloads that mentions there are only a few languages available at present but more are being added all the time as they're finished, and if you want to help out go here
[23:23] <humphreybc> it would also be nice if we could have some way people could sign up via email to get a notification when their language is added
[23:23] <godbyk> that'd be cool.
[23:23] <dutchie> should be easy to throw together an add-language script
[23:23] <humphreybc> or perhaps we could just point them to Planet Ubuntu Manual to check and I could just write a short blog post when new stuff is added. Could we have a feed from planet ubuntu manual on the website somewhere?
[23:23] <humphreybc> maybe near the dock?
[23:23] <Red_HamsterX> That wouldn't be much code, at least for detecting. Either the HTTP request has a language option (or something in its user-agent) or it doesn't.
[23:24] <daker> Red_HamsterX, yes
[23:24] <ubuntujenkins> are we getting that dock on the website ?
[23:25] <daker> that one http://www.ndesign-studio.com/demo/css-dock-menu/css-dock.html ?
[23:25] <ubuntujenkins> yes, are we having that?
[23:26] <daker> actualy i am not sure to what we will have a dock or a seperate page
[23:27] <humphreybc> daker, I'll mock something up for you after the meeting
[23:27] <daker> oki
[23:27] <ubuntujenkins> its cool but i don't think it is suitible for our website.
[23:27] <ubuntujenkins> may be we have better plans
[23:27] <humphreybc> yeah, i have an idea
[23:27] <ubuntujenkins> kk, next topic then?
[23:27] <humphreybc> okay, so everyone knows the work items?
[23:28] <humphreybc> dutchie, could you look into the language detection with Red_HamsterX?
[23:28] <dutchie> not if it means PHP :P
[23:28] <humphreybc> daker, you know what you're meant to be doing with the site
[23:28] <humphreybc> (anything you're unsure of just ask)
[23:28] <dutchie> but really, OK
[23:29] <godbyk_> I'll be working on some *offline* stuff today, apparently. :)
[23:29] <humphreybc> godbyk is going to keep making sure the latex works well with the PDFs and sort them out on lulu.com
[23:29] <daker> humphreybc, ????!!!!!
[23:29] <humphreybc> lol
[23:29] <humphreybc> so daker, are you in here? http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
[23:29] <humphreybc> i've added the website stuff there
[23:30] <humphreybc> anyway i'll talk to you more about that after the meeting :)
[23:30] <humphreybc> moving on, i'm going to skip to lulu.com pricing now since we're talking about that
[23:30] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lulu.com pricing plans
[23:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lulu.com pricing plans
[23:30] <humphreybc> Now, my thinking is that we have two options: dirt cheap and expensive
[23:31] <humphreybc> dirt cheap is paperback, black and white, not particularly high quality paper
[23:31] <humphreybc> expensive would be full colour, hardback, nice paper
[23:31] <godbyk_> I'd go with the standard paper, not the uber-cheap stuff.
[23:31] <humphreybc> okay, standard paper then :)
[23:31] <dutchie> should we set up a donations system? (to go off at a slight tangent)
[23:31] <humphreybc> so from what godbyk said, they would be around $6USD and $40 USD each
[23:31] <humphreybc> dutchie: Kevin and I were talking about this actually
[23:32] <humphreybc> I think we'll wait till after this release to see how it goes
[23:32] <humphreybc> if there are a shitload of people who download it and we actually have some people wanting to donate or whatever, then that would be cool, we'll set one up
[23:32] <humphreybc> we'll just judge it based on how this release goes I think
[23:32] <dutchie> ok, fair enough
[23:32] <humphreybc> so what do we think about those two plans? I don't want to over complicate things by having lots of plans
[23:33] <humphreybc> and I want to make it as accessible as possible (read: cheap)
[23:33] <Vantrax> not my meeting but the stats from amazon show you want to be at a max of around $15
[23:33] <humphreybc> but then those who want the nice colour version etc have that option as well
[23:33] <dutchie> Vantrax: input is welcome, thanks
[23:33] <humphreybc> Vantrax: hmm, problem is that as soon as you make it colour the price sky rockets
[23:33] <Vantrax> paperback is preferred
[23:34] <humphreybc> okay
[23:34] <Vantrax> color is not needed, look at the for dummies series
[23:34] <humphreybc> godbyk, how much is colour paperback?
[23:34] <godbyk_> B&W paperback is ~$9.75.
[23:34] <ubuntujenkins> would it be saddle stich or perfect bound?
[23:34] <godbyk_> Color paperback is ~$39.50.
[23:35] <dutchie> wow
[23:35] <godbyk_> ubuntujenkins: Perfect bound.
[23:35] <humphreybc> dutchie, ubuntujenkins, Red_HamsterX, godbyk_ what do you think about just having one options, B&W paperback?
[23:35] <humphreybc> so the $9.75 version only
[23:35] <dutchie> I think we should start out with two for the first edition at least
[23:35] <humphreybc> and see how they go?
[23:35] <ubuntujenkins> can't people do custom options anyway? or are we ordering a batch?
[23:35] <dutchie> yeah
[23:36] <humphreybc> if people actually want to drop $40 USD on colour and it sells like hot cakes, then i suppose that's cool
[23:36] <dutchie> indeed :)
[23:36] <humphreybc> alright, now we just need names
[23:36] <humphreybc> I reckon "Premium" for the colour one
[23:36] <godbyk> Well, anyone can take the PDF and upload it to lulu.com and make their own book, I s'pose.
[23:36] <Red_HamsterX> I like options, if they don't raise the cost of the cheapest option.
[23:36] <humphreybc> yeah so our goal is to have the cheapest option as cheap as possible
[23:36] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: thats all we are doing right its not costing us any thing?
[23:37] <dutchie> I'm with Red_HamsterX
[23:37] <humphreybc> godbyk: how bad is the shit paper?
[23:38]  * humphreybc is sick of starting rhythmbox only to find it doesn't work and the indicator applet for it is empty 
[23:38] <ubuntujenkins> works 4 me
[23:38]  * Red_HamsterX uses Audacious.
[23:39] <humphreybc> seems to be the store that's breaking it
[23:39] <humphreybc> ah, godbyk's back
[23:39] <godbyk_> (Gah! It's hard staying connected to the neighbor's wifi 'cause the signal's so weak. I just can't win!)
[23:40] <godbyk_> I missed everything after 'alright, now we just need names'
[23:40] <godbyk_> I said:
[23:40] <godbyk_> Well, anyone can take the PDF and upload it to lulu.com and make their own book, I s'pose.
[23:40] <godbyk_> The prices I provided are for purchasing a single copy.  If you purchase a batch of 10 copies or more, the prices drop.
[23:40] <dutchie> what about shipping?
[23:43] <dutchie> well this is fun
[23:44]  * godbyk_ hates his life^WInternet service
[23:45] <dutchie> 23:40:52 < dutchie> what about shipping?
[23:45] <dutchie> godbyk: ^^ catch that?
[23:45] <humphreybc> lol
[23:46] <humphreybc> we'll have to move on
[23:46] <humphreybc> so the maverick release dates
[23:46]  * godbyk_ weeps
[23:46] <humphreybc> (we'll come back to pricing)
[23:46] <humphreybc> so the release dates are listed here
[23:46] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
[23:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MaiZTb4Fjd
[23:47] <humphreybc> basically we're working on a pretty predictable pattern
[23:47] <humphreybc> all good?
[23:47] <ubuntujenkins> yep
[23:47] <cep> nice
[23:48] <humphreybc> now, the juicy stuff
[23:48] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Plans for Maverick, what's new
[23:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  Plans for Maverick, what's new
[23:48] <humphreybc> Kevin and I skyped about this the other night
[23:48] <humphreybc> we basically decided on three new things to introduce that would be exciting and realistic
[23:49] <humphreybc> A quick-start guide/booklet in two versions - one for inclusion ON the CD and one for shipping with the CD.
[23:49] <humphreybc> the difference is the one included on the CD will assume the people know about Ubuntu and have installed, since they're viewing it on the CD.
[23:49] <ubuntujenkins> this will just be out content remastered right?
[23:50] <humphreybc> the booklet however, will only be maybe 4 pages long, small enough to fit inside the Live CD case, and will basically be a full-colour glossy introduction to what Ubuntu is, some pictures, and a little guide about installing
[23:50] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: pretty much
[23:50] <humphreybc> I'll design some mockups for the booklet and stuff later on in the year
[23:50] <humphreybc> so that's new feature 1
[23:50] <humphreybc> new feature 2 is a full persona to be used across all of our publications
[23:50] <humphreybc> this persona can be found here
[23:50] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPpersona
[23:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMPpersona
[23:51] <humphreybc> we're still missing quite a few bits of information (we ran out of imagination)
[23:51] <humphreybc> basically this is to provide consistency and stuff - we need to create all the files that Jessica will need for screenshots
[23:51] <humphreybc> so this means photos of rock-climbing, music in Rhythmbox of her favourite (made up) bands etc
[23:52] <godbyk> instead of having screenshots that are empty dialogs, I think it'd be more instructive to show the dialogs with the information filled in.. provide a concrete example.
[23:52] <humphreybc> exactly
[23:52] <c7p> interesting
[23:52] <humphreybc> so that's new feature 2
[23:53] <humphreybc> new feature 3 was either going to be a Kubuntu manual, or an Ubuntu Developers Manual, and we've pretty much decided on the latter
[23:53] <ubuntujenkins> I think ubutnu advanced is a better name
[23:53] <humphreybc> for a couple of reasons, firstly I think there probably wouldn't be enough interest for a Kubuntu one, secondly I don't believe Kubuntu is aimed at novices therefore doesn't require a simple manual
[23:54] <humphreybc> also, with all the opportunistic developer stuff and the fact that the help and tutorials for all the developer tools like Launchpad, bazaar, ground control, quickly etc are spread out all over the place, I think a developer manual would be great
[23:54] <ubuntujenkins> i soudl argue that kubuntu can be fore novices, I do like the devs/advanced manul though
[23:54] <ubuntujenkins> *could
[23:55] <humphreybc> I think we'll have to see how this and the next release goes and I'll talk to the kubuntu guys at UDS to see how much interest there is in making a Kubuntu manual
[23:55] <c7p> or there can be a manual of how you can contribute to the community (?)
[23:55] <humphreybc> so the Ubuntu Developers Manual (working title) is feature #3
[23:55] <humphreybc> c7p: yeah, that'll be the developers manual basically
[23:56] <humphreybc> we should have information about contributing in other ways too
[23:56] <ubuntujenkins> I can do some of the stuff in the devs manual
[23:56] <humphreybc> so we might call it the Ubuntu Contributors Manual, or "Contributing to Ubuntu" or something
[23:56] <c7p> that's better
[23:57] <humphreybc> now we'll need to get the launchpad people, the bazaar people, Martin Owens from Ground Control, Rick Spencer and Didier Roche from Quickly etc together so we can get all the content together
[23:57] <dutchie> yeah, there's more to contributing than doing dev work, and dev work for ubuntu is basically packaging, which is not what people think of as dev work
[23:57]  * humphreybc might register a session at UDS for this
[23:57] <ubuntujenkins> I can cover ppas , packaging is a dark art doctormo had a blog on it today
[23:58] <Red_HamsterX> Packaging for non-internal use still intimidates me.
[23:58] <dutchie> packaging is great fun ;)
[23:58] <Red_HamsterX> Packaging software*
[23:58] <Red_HamsterX> =P
[23:58] <humphreybc> I think the contributors manual will be a big hit, because a) it's something that hasn't been done before, b) will make it easier for people to contribute (and everyone in the community wants more help), c) will give the developers a method of getting information about their projects out there so they'll be more willing to help, and d) most of the material is already around the place (like Launchpad has a heap of help already 
[23:59] <humphreybc> these played a big part in deciding on this over the Kubuntu manual - it will be actually possible to create a Contributors manual in 6 months
[23:59] <ubuntujenkins> we don't want to copy other peoples work it makes things more complex, licence wise