[15:08] <Beyecixramd> wow... this channel is incredibly empty...
[15:08] <zniavre> :o)
[15:09] <Beyecixramd> well hmm... i would like to contribute things, what needs to be done?
[15:10] <zniavre> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork   everything you should know is inside the website
[15:11] <zniavre> i m just here to spy and learn a bit i can't help you really
[15:12] <Beyecixramd> hmmm... zniavre, do you know how a mailing list works? i never suscribed to any mailing lists
[15:12] <Beyecixramd> how to talk in the mailing list, what's a mailing list about... etc
[15:14]  * snubby tips hat @ Beyecixramd and zniavre 
[15:15] <Beyecixramd> hi snubby
[15:15] <snubby> how's life? @ Beyecixramd
[15:15] <Beyecixramd> trying to figure out how to contribute in a mialing list :)
[15:15] <Beyecixramd> mailing*
[15:15] <Beyecixramd> and why is it so important
[15:16] <snubby> um cause.. It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! methinks
[15:16] <Beyecixramd> :|
[15:16] <Beyecixramd> xDDD
[15:16] <Beyecixramd> whatever, yumming time
[17:37] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: hi! the point of using a mailing list is much about having things coming your way, instead of going out to get them (as you would do with a forum)
[17:38] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: thanks for the reply, still interested :)
[17:38] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: that subscribing to a mailing list is a bit of a barrier can have positive effect on the quality ...
[17:38] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: but how do i contribute to a mailing list?
[17:38] <Beyecixramd> how do i reply to someone else's comments, or start "new threads" etc?
[17:39] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: you do not contribute to a mailing list, but rather use the list to be informed, to inform others with the same interest and to coordinate collaboration
[17:39] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: every good mail client has a Reply-to-List feature
[17:39] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: i use the Gmail webclient...
[17:41] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: does Gmail have that feature?
[17:41] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: for a reply you should use the address of the mailing list. somtimes you may want to take something off-list, so you can use the address of the original sender
[17:41] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: i don't know
[17:42] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: oh well... so if i send something to a mailing list, everyone who's suscribed to it, will receive the message/suggestion/question/brainstorm/whatever?
[17:42] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: yes
[17:43] <Beyecixramd> and how should i reply to comments? gmail by default leaves the text below and the response over the text you're replying to, but almost all forums do it the other way around: quote on top, reply below the quote
[17:44] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: because i've seen people saying "don't reply that way" but i don't know what's the "adequate way" of doing it
[17:44] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: you should respond below quotes and ideally only quote what you need for immediate context
[17:44] <Beyecixramd> so quote, then reply?
[17:45] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: yes. this way the flow of information is maintained and nobody has to deal with endless mails full of quotes
[17:46] <Beyecixramd> okay, thank you a lot, i'm suscribing to the ubuntu artwork mailing list right now
[17:47] <Beyecixramd> btw, i just finished a pack of wallpapers, i'll put a link here so you can give me some constructive feedback :) (any of you)
[17:47] <thorwil> mailing lists are usually archived online, plus some people keep their own archives, so copying entire discussions for context is unnecessary. contra-productive, even
[17:48] <Beyecixramd> oh holy **** DanRabbit was online...
[17:51]  * vish couldnt help laughing ^ ;p
[17:51] <vish> Beyecixramd: is he not supposed to be? ;)
[17:53] <Beyecixramd> no no, of course, vish, but i know that guy, he's on dA xD
[17:53] <Beyecixramd> i mean, i never knew he was usually around here
[17:54] <vish> ;)
[17:55] <Beyecixramd> here http://beyecixramd.deviantart.com/art/Duality-161277970
[17:55] <vish> Beyecixramd: if you want to contribute to elementary you can also try #elementary
[17:56] <Beyecixramd> vish: i tried to add icons, mainly for KDE, since Elementary is focused on GNOME and there are lots of KDE icons lacking such a beautiful pack... but i don't really know how to work with Inkscape, only GIMP and the likes
[17:57] <vish> Beyecixramd: iirs , islington has elementary for KDE working
[17:57] <vish> iirc*
[17:57] <vish> and we have added those symlinks to elementary recently as well , so it should work in KDE soonish
[17:57] <Beyecixramd> hmmm... it does work, but lacks icons like Amarok, control center, and KDE specific icons
[17:57] <vish> ah those..
[17:58] <Beyecixramd> and Amarok simply CAN'T be replaced by a musical note
[17:58] <Beyecixramd> imho it should keep the wolf identity of Amarok
[17:58] <Beyecixramd> Rhthmbox doesn't really have a defined icon, just like iTunes, it's too generic
[17:58] <Beyecixramd> but unlike WMP, those are the only exceptions i know of
[17:59] <vish> Beyecixramd: well , if you have a suggestion for the apps you can suggest the icon to the app devs.. RB has been updated recently
[17:59] <vish> but still a bit generic though
[17:59] <Beyecixramd> no no
[17:59] <Beyecixramd> it's okay
[18:00] <Beyecixramd> i don't really want RB to have its own hmm... identity
[18:00] <vish> Beyecixramd: totem is looking for an icon , if you want to try out  ;)
[18:00] <Beyecixramd> haha
[18:00] <Beyecixramd> it's like the entire GNOME desktop is filled with generic icons
[18:00] <Beyecixramd> you know, epiphany, totem, empathy (more or less)
[18:00] <Beyecixramd> but KDE is more like Windows, every icon has its own soul
[18:01] <vish> Beyecixramd: empathy is the telepathy icon :D
[18:01] <vish> empathy is also in the works for an udpate
[18:01] <Beyecixramd> xD
[18:01] <vish> update*
[18:02] <Beyecixramd> Empathy feels a bit too much incomplete
[18:03] <Beyecixramd> it's cool, because follows GNOME standards and specs...
[18:03] <Beyecixramd> but i think it should be tagged as beta
[18:03] <vish> Beyecixramd: btw , elementary is not only about icons  .. ;)  there are other ways you can contribute.. though..
[18:03]  * vish </not trying to pouch folks for elementary>
[18:03] <Beyecixramd> vish: yeah, GTK and Metacity theming
[18:03] <Beyecixramd> i just started making GTK themes and my first theme resulted in a total mess of code
[18:03] <vish> poach*
[18:04] <Beyecixramd> so i trashed the project
[18:04] <Beyecixramd> which btw, is not very motivating
[18:05] <Beyecixramd> oh, vish
[18:05] <Beyecixramd> maybe you know about this
[18:05] <Beyecixramd> does GIMP nowadays (2.6.x) have still a color limit?
[18:05] <Beyecixramd> i heard that GEGL is going to fix that, and GEGL is going to be introduced in GIMP 2.8
[18:05] <vish> not sure.. but i miss the zoom in the status bar :s
[18:20] <darkmatter> I think I'm allergic to gnome-shell. I keep sneezing every time I use it or work on the mockups involving it xD
[18:27]  * darkmatter slaps vish with a stray pixel
[18:31]  * vish ducks and watches darkmatter's pixel miss him like a matrix slow-mo 
[18:33] <darkmatter> vish: I had to lash out at someone. trying to adapt my designs to gnome-shells craptastic ui is a PITA ;(
[18:35] <vish> darkmatter: ha! serves you right ;p  [you were boasting that you were invited]
[18:36] <darkmatter> vish: bah. I'm still happy with the other bits I'm working on. it's that blasted overlay that drives me nuts you evil little pixel pusher :p
[18:38] <directhex> so, any sign of that font?
[18:44] <darkmatter> vish: the problem with the overlay is (aside from being really cluttered, akin to a dumpster) that its exceedingly vertical. it doesn't leave much room to work with organizationally
[18:47] <vish> Usually in #ubuntu-release there is a factoid !outyet..  Everytime someone asks is it out yet, saying: "Everytime someone asks is the release out yet , Mark Shuttleworth delays the release by 1 hr"  ..
[18:47] <islington> Beyecixramd> it's cool, because follows GNOME standards and specs...
[18:47] <vish> kwwii:  maybe we should add a bot for the fonts as well ;p ?
[18:48] <vish> s/bot/factoid
[18:48] <islington> Beyecixramd: I think that following the tango spec is a loss
[18:48] <kwwii> vish: lol, indeed
[18:48] <islington> since its old
[18:48] <kwwii> the fonts are not ready and there is no definite time I can give anyone as to when it will be ready
[18:48] <Beyecixramd> islington: not talking about the GNOME spec, but more precisely, the GTK guidelines, for apps, not for icons
[18:48] <kwwii> certainly not before lucid release
[18:48] <vish> directhex: ^
[18:49] <islington> Beyecixramd: oic! my bad
[18:49] <directhex> bah humbug
[18:49] <Beyecixramd> directhex: your name sounds offensive... (directX) haha, kidding
[18:49] <islington> kwwii: did you see that the kubuntu logo is in the wild?
[18:50] <vish> islington: there was also a *ubuntu* logo thorwil mentioned in dA
[18:50] <kwwii> islington: yes, I saw that
[18:50] <directhex> Beyecixramd, i aim to please
[18:58] <darkmatter> hmmm... I think what I may have to do is a [<Category> ( * )   (-->)] to list sub items for a particular activity (not outside the overlay). have the star list a dropdown of common items that may not be pinned. have categories like Discover (or Explore... or maybe both) Communicate, Play. hmmm.... *stares at overlay*
[18:59] <kwwii> islington: I sent the info on, waiting for an answer
[19:01] <vish> darkmatter: if you cant get categories back , i'll reckon you have awesome convincing skills ;p
[19:01] <vish> or know voodoo ;p
[19:04] <darkmatter> vish: lol
[19:05] <vish> argh! that was can* but i guess you got it ;)
[19:06] <darkmatter> vish: thank you for mentioning another peeve. we're supposed to be making things 'cleaner' and 'easier' simplification of simplifications sake is wrong. just look at the current incarnation of the shell overlay for evidence ;)
[19:07] <darkmatter> simplification without purpose (aka: 'dumbing down') actually makes crap more difficult
[19:08] <vish> !publicyet is reply Everytime someone asks if the font has been released to the public yet or when it will be released , Mark Shuttleworth delays the release by 1 week!"
[19:11] <darkmatter> vish: the idea behind using actual activities/libraries is that it gets half of the item clutter _out_ of the ui. activities abstract the need to run applications (you don't run them directly). libraries organize thing in a neat and tidy manner (and can function as a marketplace of sorts).
[19:12] <darkmatter> want to actually run an app directly? "there's a library for that" :P
[19:12] <vish> ya ya , darkmatter tell that to the -shell folks ;p
[19:14] <darkmatter> vish: that's why I'm 'gnomifying' stuff, so I can share it with the ui team and try to ram it up the -shell guys assets... errr.... I meant "down their throats"... honest...
[19:14] <Beyecixramd> hmmm people... someone, on the ubuntu brainstorm said about making an introductory video, so i got an idea
[19:14] <thorwil> darkmatter builds a trojan horse?
[19:14] <Beyecixramd> making a Welcome screen (like 7 has) and put a link there to an Impress presentation
[19:14] <vish> darkmatter: something has been mentioned several times in the mailing list as well , but it just bounces like rubber ;)
[19:15] <Beyecixramd> extending the stuff shown on the ubiquity slideshow, what do you think about it?
[19:15] <vish> Beyecixramd: for every boot?
[19:15] <Beyecixramd> no, for god's sake, only in the first boot, vish
[19:16] <Beyecixramd> the idea is to have a Welcome window (Mint has one) with a checkbox to "don't show this window in the future"
[19:16] <troy_s> Why not just stretch a Tango icon up to fill the screen? Tango is easy on the eyes, looks professional, and works on all backgrounds.
[19:16] <Beyecixramd> and an Impress presentation as a way to introduce Ubuntu to new users
[19:16] <vish> Beyecixramd: not sure it is required during boot , the ubiquity slideshow is a good time killer , maybe we can just extend it
[19:16] <vish> troy_s: you are not troy_s !
[19:17] <troy_s> vish: LOL.
[19:17] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: space on the CD is tight, (additional) icons on the desktop are not acceptable (anti-clutter policy). doing something only after first boot could be seen as breaking expectations
[19:17] <Beyecixramd> vish, not during boot, only on the first login
[19:18] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: it won't be an icon on the desktop, i hate icons on the desktop, it would be only a window giving you useful links to get more out of your Ubuntu setup
[19:18] <troy_s> vish: Side note, new messaging indicator envelope is awkward as hell. Who committed it?
[19:18] <vish> troy_s: ha! i want to change it too ;)
[19:18] <Beyecixramd> troy_s: what do you mean?
[19:18] <troy_s> vish: It's a mess.
[19:19] <zniavre> the first envelope from ubuntu-mono was really nice
[19:19] <troy_s> vish: I hate being the fool that stares at the little details instead of the larger forest (but that's about all we can really do here anyways) but it is very weighty to the lower half at the moment and the linework might need a kick in the ass.
[19:20] <troy_s> It actually sort of looks like an angry Mr. Yuck.
[19:20] <vish> yeah , the lines are weird , can be made better..
[19:21] <vish> looks like the applet has its chest pumped ;p
[19:21] <troy_s> vish: If better existed. I'd say that it is simply trying to do too much. For whatever reason, someone somewhere decided to create an open envelope and in 22pixels (wtf) it just is a force. It reads as such.
[19:22] <darkmatter> vish: like, applications library. I actually got the idea when reading over bugs regarding the organization of the app-browser. have the right pane in two columns, listing favorite (or recent) apps for each category, and the ability to click (more) and display the entire category (removes unnecessary clutter and scrolling)
[19:22] <troy_s> vish: Are you aware of the reasoning to force the issue and open the leaf up?
[19:24] <vish> troy_s: well , i dont know about that icon change ... but i can guess it is because people complained that green can be distinguished by the color-blind.. so the only option they could do was to change the shape
[19:24] <vish> cant*
[19:25] <darkmatter> vish: that frees up the left pane for useful stuff, like access to the application marketplace (embedded software center type stuff), advanced software management, notifications of third party updates, recommendations (or "just in" type stuff). basically it turns it into one-stop shopping as it were
[19:26] <troy_s> vish: I can't see that. But maybe - I'd expect nothing less than total myopia of design for everyone.
[19:27] <darkmatter> if it has a logical association, have it accessible from a common location
[19:32] <vish> darkmatter: "right pane in two columns, listing favorite (or recent) apps for each category, and the ability to click (more)"  seems too much work to just launch an application :s
[19:32] <darkmatter> vish: not polished yet, but that's a general idea of how the library/marketplace thingy could work.
[19:34] <darkmatter> vish: I'm not big on running applications, so that particular library hasn't been given much thought yet :P
[19:36] <thorwil> who needs applications when you can marvel at the activities view swooshing in and out all day?
[19:36] <darkmatter> vish: but the same general idea holds true for audio/video, etc as well, with the necessary changes of course.
[19:36] <islington> thorwil: you mean the spinning cube was any better?
[19:37] <vish> islington: any day ;)
[19:37] <darkmatter> vish: make what the user is doing paramount. not the tools they are doing it with
[19:38] <darkmatter> content is the chrome whenever possible and all that
[19:38] <thorwil> islington: how could i forget that? the cube and wobbly windows are the pinnacle of open-source software and there is actually no need to develop anything any more after them!!
[19:38] <vish> islington: main problem is  , with the cube it spins after you select the app you want [and if it is in a different desk] , but here it is twice for every window change :/
[19:38]  * darkmatter has no wobbly nor cube
[19:38]  * vish bangs for wobble!
[19:38] <thorwil> darkmatter: you are stiff and round??
[19:38] <darkmatter> wall/expose/scale is good enough for me
[19:39] <islington> darkmatter: agreed.
[19:39] <darkmatter> thorwil: that too :P
[19:39] <islington> thorwil: surely rgba will be the pinnacle sir
[19:39] <thorwil> cube and my 6 workspaces wouldn't go well with each other
[19:40] <islington> actually that was one of the things that bothered me about compiz expo, that pointless black border around the workspaces, kwin does it a lot better imo
[19:41] <darkmatter> the true pinnacle will be when we have true stereoscopic interfaces with varying focus depending upon where we're looking. then we can all rub our eyes trying to figure out why everything is so blurry xD
[19:42] <thorwil> Beyecixramd: if you are burning to get creative with text and images, you could have a look at http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/
[19:43] <vish> thorwil: why dont ya like wobbly :(  it feels natural moving things around with wobbly
[19:43] <darkmatter> islington: yeah, the border/refection/gradient junk is annoying and serves no purpose. I disable it in any plugin that has the option. unfortunately expo doesn't have that option :/
[19:43] <Beyecixramd> thorwil: i'm going to Mint, suggesting that Impress idea i told you about, anyway
[19:45] <darkmatter> nap time! I'm all pixelled out from my all nighter! o/
[20:18] <Beyecixramd> darkmatter: :|
[20:26] <vish> lmao! >  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk2-engines-murrine/+bug/549281/comments/6
[20:27] <Beyecixramd> whut, vish?
[20:28] <vish> Cimi's  the comment that he was updating his profile  ;)
[20:35] <zniavre> haha
[20:46] <thorwil> so that's what dilomo is doing these days: http://ankere.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/times-never-enough/
[21:03] <thorwil> troy_s: http://inspirationlab.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/soyouneedatypeface.jpg
[21:03] <thorwil> good night!
[23:31]  * darkmatter awakens and cracks the windows. 22 C! \o/