[16:05] <showard> showard is here for motu-reception meeting
[16:09] <BlackZ> showard: there's a meeting?
[16:10] <BlackZ> ah, yes, you're right
[16:10] <BlackZ> :)
[16:10] <RoAkSoAx> o/
[16:10] <showard> Hey
[16:11] <RoAkSoAx> showard, i guess nobody else is around just yet
[16:11] <BlackZ> wasn't it at 15:00 UTC ?
[16:13] <BlackZ> huats: ping
[16:13] <huats> I am here
[16:14] <BlackZ> huats: wasn't the meeting at 15:00 UTC?
[16:14] <BlackZ> as I can read in the e-mail
[16:14] <huats>  it was
[16:14] <huats> and it is crazyness here :)
[16:14] <huats> give me  5 minutes
[16:14] <huats> sorry showard...
[16:14] <BlackZ> huats: sure
[16:14] <BlackZ> no problem
[16:17] <huats> I am here
[16:18] <huats> BlackZ, RoAkSoAx, showard sorry I am late
[16:18] <huats> I am ready to begin
[16:18] <RoAkSoAx> huats, its ok, we all understand :)
[16:19] <huats> so you are now all members of the mailing list
[16:19] <showard> hey np, I can stay as long i can, but I may have to leave abruptly (sorry in advance!)
[16:19] <huats> I have added you yesterday
[16:19] <huats> showard, no pb
[16:20] <huats> you should have all received an notice of that
[16:20] <huats> if it is not the case check your spam filter :)
[16:20] <RoAkSoAx> huats, i dont think I have
[16:20] <huats> BlackZ, showard have you seen it ?
[16:20] <BlackZ> huats: yeah
[16:21] <RoAkSoAx> huats, its gone already :S
[16:21] <BlackZ> huats: which is the mailing list?
[16:21] <RoAkSoAx> huats, its gone already)
[16:22] <showard> I don't think I got anything, don't see anything in the spam
[16:22] <huats> motu-mentoring-reception@reponses.net
[16:22] <BlackZ> huats: wait a moment
[16:22] <RoAkSoAx> huats, i was thinking, wouldn't it be easier to just use the ML of the launchpad team?
[16:23] <RoAkSoAx> whenever someone sends a message we can review it and approve it
[16:23] <huats> RoAkSoAx, the thing is that so far the mailing list is not private
[16:23] <huats> and this is something needs to be private
[16:23] <BlackZ> huats: I have just received an e-mail from you: "You should have been subscribed to the mailing list now."
[16:23] <BlackZ> but anything from motu-mentoring-reception@reponses.net
[16:23] <huats> we already had in the past mentors saying : I don't want this mentee...
[16:24] <huats> that is why I think we should keep that privatly
[16:24] <showard> ahh ok, that makes sense
[16:24] <BlackZ> I'm agree with huats
[16:25] <huats> and the mailing list is on LP is not private yet
[16:25] <RoAkSoAx> huats, ok
[16:25] <huats> (we need to see that with jcastro one day, but I wanted to talk with you before doing anything related to the mentoring)
[16:27] <huats> I have sent you right now an email on the mailing list please let me know if you receive it
[16:28] <RoAkSoAx> huats, i haven't (and I've had problems with that email for ages)
[16:29] <huats> RoAkSoAx, which email you mean ?
[16:29] <BlackZ> huats: not yet
[16:29] <showard> not yet
[16:29] <RoAkSoAx> huats, the ML
[16:29] <huats> RoAkSoAx, but it is working :(
[16:30] <huats> I have received it :(
[16:30] <BlackZ> huats: so that's strange
[16:30] <BlackZ> I don't think it's a server-related problem
[16:30] <RoAkSoAx> huats, weird :S :/
[16:30] <huats> well I'll figure that later
[16:30] <huats> let's focus on the meeting a bit
[16:31] <BlackZ> yeah, can we start it?
[16:33] <huats> showard, I think your email was great
[16:33] <huats> it sums up very well the idea
[16:35] <RoAkSoAx> huats, nevermind i just got it at @ubuntu-pe.org
[16:35] <showard> me too
[16:35] <huats> ok great
[16:35] <huats> they were bloked somewhere :(
[16:36] <BlackZ> I haven't
[16:36] <BlackZ> hmm..
[16:37] <RoAkSoAx> ok so, we now have the wikipage that i'd sugggest we should use from now on to track the agenda of every meeting
[16:38] <BlackZ> RoAkSoAx: yeah, that'd be great
[16:38] <huats> it's great indeed !
[16:39] <RoAkSoAx> ok, any new discussion item?
[16:39] <showard> Should we go over the points in my email?
[16:40] <huats> showard, go ahead
[16:41] <RoAkSoAx> showard, lets start with tracking new mentings in bugs. I give a +1 to your approach
[16:41] <RoAkSoAx> s/mentings/mentees
[16:42] <huats> RoAkSoAx, I agree too
[16:42] <BlackZ> +1
[16:42] <showard> (OK RoAK), going down the list in order to make sure we don't get ahead of ourselves: Do we agree on the "overall" goal of motu-reception
[16:43] <showard> we're the coordination point between a pool of mentors and potential developers. Should we drop the "MOTU" from our name?
[16:44] <huats> I agree on the goal
[16:44] <RoAkSoAx> +1 with the goal.
[16:44] <BlackZ> sure, +1 from me too
[16:44] <huats> showard, I think MOTU is still widely 'know'
[16:44] <huats> I'd be in favor of keeping it
[16:44] <showard> ok, we can keep the name - but realistically we are for all developers, not just "motu"
[16:44] <RoAkSoAx> showard, yes we should keep MOTU, since due to archive reorganization, MOTU will be for those unseeded packages
[16:45] <showard> or are we just for motu
[16:45] <huats> We are for developpers
[16:45] <BlackZ> I'd say to keep the name surely - agree with huats
[16:45] <huats> and since MOTU is one of that steps...
[16:46] <showard> ok, name can stay - but we are for all developers. I think MOTU will be taken out of the "steps" and become one of the ways a developer can join
[16:46] <ScottK> One of the points in the last UDS discussion about future of MOTU was that all development teams should be responsible for new developers, not just MOTU.
[16:46] <showard> Yes ,what ScottK said - that's why I think we should not be just motu - but the contact point for all teams
[16:46] <showard> and to distribute it
[16:47] <huats> so how would you name it : Ubuntu Developpers Mentoring Reception  ?
[16:48] <RoAkSoAx> huats, Ubuntu Development Mentoring Reception
[16:48] <showard> Sure, the Ubuntu Developers Mentoring Program (we are the reception for it). This is a change from before, since we'd have to get the other teams on board as well (we'll need mentors from each team to be responsible for training their members)
[16:49] <huats> OK then for me
[16:49] <RoAkSoAx> what we can do is use the general mentoring for MOTU and specific mentoring for any of the teams
[16:49] <showard> while anyone can do "general" training, individual teams will be responsible for the "senior" training of their own members
[16:49] <showard> exactly roak
[16:50] <showard> MOTU can also be one of the senior teams
[16:50] <BlackZ> agree, that's ok
[16:51] <RoAkSoAx> ok so I think that's the way we should go then
[16:51] <showard> Ok, we'll put these ideas up on the wiki page to to make sure we keep track of it
[16:51] <BlackZ> huats: we should rename the mailing list then
[16:52] <showard> hauts: how involved would you like to be, because we can take over admin stuff if you just want to "consult" since you have the experience
[16:52] <huats> showard, I'd like to be involved
[16:52] <showard> great!
[16:52] <huats> but I have no idea how much I can spend...
[16:52] <showard> (I sometimes rope people into doing things they don't want to - just want to make sure!)
[16:53] <huats> but count on me for that
[16:53] <ScottK> showard: Don't be shy, roping people into things they don't want to do is an essential element of open source management.
[16:54] <showard> before getting new email addresses, we should work out the details of what the program will look like and have some potential team people look it over before changing addresses. I think
[16:54] <showard> ScottK: ha, good advice
[16:54] <BlackZ> showard: sure, for now we can keep it
[16:54] <showard> If mentors and teams say it won't work, we'd have to change our thinking
[16:55] <showard> Ok, moving on: Work flow
[16:55] <showard> -interested person contacts reception
[16:55] <showard> -reception acknowledges contact
[16:55] <showard> -reception organizes or points mentees to "general" training
[16:55] <showard> (packaging training sessions) classes with all new junior level
[16:55] <showard> members that need it (connects mentees and whoever is running the
[16:55] <showard> general training)
[16:55] <showard> -pair mentees with "general" mentors
[16:55] <showard> -when a mentee is ready reception connects individual with the team
[16:55] <showard> they are interested in.
[16:56] <showard> I think it's pretty basic and exactly what we said last time, does that make sense? Any comments?
[16:57] <huats> showard, indeed that matches what we said
[16:57] <RoAkSoAx> indeed
[16:57] <showard> ok, hauts: what's it like getting mentors, is it easy - are there enough?
[16:58] <huats> showard, it is not that easy usually
[16:58] <huats> we were always at the gap
[16:58] <huats> but it was OK
[16:58] <huats> now we should see how it goes with the new teams
[16:59] <RoAkSoAx> huats, i think we should keep tracking of mentors by having "Available mentors in US TImezones", "No Mentors Available in Europe timezones"
[16:59] <showard> What if we only need a few mentors to actually be on IRC for the packaging training, and the rest are by email or by appointment on IRC (kind of how bug control does it)
[17:00] <huats> showard, I would prefer to avoid appointment on IRC, since I would encourage the usage of #ubuntu-motu
[17:00] <huats> RoAkSoAx, It is need to have the timezone for any mentors and mentees
[17:01] <showard> yes, using #ubuntu-motu is better - this might be a better question hauts: what do the mentors do?
[17:01] <huats> but showard once again it is just my idea (even if I know that ScottK will second me for the usage of ubuntu-motu)
[17:01] <showard> (I meant by appointment on #ubuntu-motu)
[17:02] <BlackZ> huats: I'd suggest to do a "calendar" when the mentee assigned is available, and say there when they aren't available
[17:02] <huats> showard, well a mentor is here to introduce the way of thinking that is used on Ubuntu
[17:02] <huats> and to tell them : ok you are going to work on Kde for that stuff, then talk to ScottK
[17:03] <huats> also to lift the various questions mentees might have...
[17:03] <huats> sometimes people are afraid of speaking on IRC
[17:03] <showard> ok, so it's not so much teaching technical skills but instead instroducing to a community
[17:03] <huats> on a public channel
[17:03] <RoAkSoAx> huats, yeah but I'd prefer to send that mentee with enough knowledge to already start working on stuff without having the specific mentor to teach the basics of packaging
[17:04] <huats> well the technicals basics would be covered by the sessions :)
[17:04] <huats> otherwise that depends a lot of the mentee
[17:05] <ScottK> Honestly if you have people who can't ask questions on IRC in a channel, they aren't going to work out.
[17:05] <ScottK> You're better off finding out sooner rather than later.
[17:05] <RoAkSoAx> ScottK, +1
[17:05] <ScottK> Ubuntu IRC channels are very friendly and by working on private, you damage the new contributor's integration into the community.
[17:06] <ScottK> Also mentors aren't perfect.
[17:06] <ScottK> If they are working with their mentees in public, if they make a mistake it can be immediately corrected.
[17:06] <ScottK> Also other people in the channel learn from the discussion.
[17:06] <BlackZ> agree with ScottK
[17:06] <showard> Ok, IRC should be an important part of mentoring then
[17:06] <ScottK> Really I think that private mentoring should be extremely rare and highly discouraged.
[17:07] <ScottK> It's not consistent with our cultures and values as an open project.
[17:07] <RoAkSoAx> +1
[17:07] <RoAkSoAx> (amen)
[17:08] <ScottK> I have said in the past and continue to believe we're better off with no formal mentoring process than one that works in private.
[17:08] <huats> ScottK, I'd see the mentoring like someone who is following your steps a bit
[17:08] <huats> like a prefered referal
[17:08] <huats> but not someone who is here to answer all you questions
[17:08] <huats> +r
[17:08] <RoAkSoAx> indeed
[17:09] <showard> Ok, so formall mentoring should be done in public, IRC - I agree
[17:09] <showard> Moving on to the next point: mentee tracking implimentation
[17:10] <showard> I think earlier people liked the idea of LP bugs for mentees, but what do you think of this small change to what I wrote in the email:
[17:10] <RoAkSoAx> sorry guys but I have to run.
[17:10] <showard> ok, we can stop here
[17:11] <huats> RoAkSoAx, ok
[17:11] <huats> showard, as you like
[17:11] <huats> may be you can expose your idea and RoAkSoAx will comment them on the minutes ?
[17:12] <showard> ah sorry
[17:12] <showard> This is the example from the email:project owned by motu-reception
[17:12] <showard> where each applicant is a bug report (DM way)
[17:12] <showard> LP example:
[17:12] <showard> Mentee files a bug against a project owned by motu-reception. This can
[17:12] <showard> be private (why is it private, what private information is there?)
[17:12] <showard> -"NEW" = unprocessed
[17:12] <showard> -"Incomplete" = needs to attend a packaging training session
[17:12] <showard> -"Complete"=currently in the "general" mentorship program
[17:12] <showard> -"Triaged"=currently in the "specialized" mentorship program
[17:12] <showard> -"Fix Released"=done with program
[17:12] <showard> -"Won't fix"=lost contact with, not in program
[17:12] <showard> -"Assigned to"=mentor
[17:13] <showard> What if "complete" means that they are qualified for "general" training
[17:13] <showard> and then we can tell mentors to "shop" through the list of "complete" unassigned or "triaged" unassigned bugs
[17:14] <showard> to see if there are people they recognize from sponsoring packages, etc - then assign themselvs to the bug
[17:15] <Daviey> Would motu-reception be compulsory, or is it an extra method to help people into the team?  Ie, can the exisiting method still be used?
[17:15] <showard> After packaging trainging (when a mentee goes to "complete"), they can do merges, syncs, small fixes, FTBFS, rebuilds, etc. -- and "build" a reputation for themselves, then get picked by a mentee
[17:15] <showard> Not compulsory
[17:15] <huats> Daviey, nothing is compulsory
[17:15] <Daviey> showard: thanks.
[17:16] <Daviey> huats: well no, but i mean't - would they have to do this process to join motu.. Breathing isn't compulsory :)
[17:16] <huats> Remember to ask you not to breah for a while next time we cross :)
[17:16] <showard> My concern is finding enough mentors, and if you can let people shop around - someone might do it that might not have normally if the recognize someone that they sponsored
[17:17] <showard> Daviey: you can still join motu normally
[17:17] <huats> showard, I am not very confortable with the idea of letting the mentors pick the mentee
[17:17] <huats> actually we were quite strict in avoiding people from the same country or the same mother language
[17:17] <huats> to push people to use english
[17:18] <huats> and I think it is something to persue
[17:18] <showard> ok, that makes sense - we can think about it over the week
[17:18] <BlackZ> agree with huats
[17:19] <showard> In that case we can summarize what we said today on the wiki, and come up with an agenda for next week
[17:20] <huats> yep
[17:20] <BlackZ> yeah
[17:22] <BlackZ> ok, something to discuss again? can we stop here?
[17:22] <showard> Thanks all, i'll post it on the wiki and send an email for you all to check it out (and next weeks agenda)
[17:22] <showard> I think we can stop here
[17:22] <BlackZ> OK, thanks all
[17:22] <showard> have a good week!
[17:23] <BlackZ> showard: thanks, you too! :)
[17:26] <huats> thanks guys !
[18:07] <jdstrand> hi all!
[18:08] <jjohansen> hi
[18:08] <mdeslaur> hi jdstrand, jjohansen
[18:08] <mdeslaur> and everyone else! :)
[18:09]  * kees joins from laggy tmobile network along train route :)
[18:09] <mdeslaur> oh, hehe, hi kees!
[18:09] <jdstrand> ah cool
[18:09] <kees> heya!  :)
[18:09] <mdeslaur> kees: Can you hear me now?
[18:09] <jdstrand> kees: do you usually do a #startmeeting?
[18:09] <kees> heheh
[18:09] <kees> jdstrand: I haven't, no, but we probably should
[18:09] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[18:09] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:09. The chair is jdstrand.
[18:09] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:10] <jdstrand> hehe
[18:10] <kees> regardless, I shouldn't chair since the next tunnel will drop me.  ;)
[18:10] <jdstrand> I'm chair cause kees is on vacation! :P
[18:10] <jdstrand> kees: since you are here, why don't you go first?
[18:10] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: do you feel powerful with all those commands at your disposal? :)
[18:10] <jdstrand> I would, if I knew what to do with them :P
[18:11] <kees> let's see.  I'm hoping to do more ISO testing, work our release checklist, and look for low-hanging fruit
[18:12] <kees> since that took 2 minutes to send over the network, I will stop there.  :P
[18:12] <mdeslaur> ok, my turn
[18:12] <mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
[18:12] <jdstrand> kees: thanks :)
[18:12] <mdeslaur> and will probably release ffmpeg updates todat
[18:12] <mdeslaur> s/todat/today/
[18:13] <mdeslaur> I'll do some iso testing, and will pick something from the CVE list
[18:13] <mdeslaur> I'm done
[18:14] <jdstrand> I plan to fix an irssi upstream regression today (small), then publish netpbm and kdebase-workspace (for kdm)
[18:15] <jdstrand> I imagine the kdm testing will take a little while, so it might not go out until tomorrow
[18:15] <jdstrand> then ISO testing and install audits
[18:15] <jdstrand> (install audits got pushed back again, due to updates/vacations/etc)
[18:16] <jdstrand> I think we should all make a concerted effort to make sure lucid is up to date and accurate in UCT
[18:16] <jdstrand> (it's one of our unspoken release tasks)
[18:16] <mdeslaur> agreed
[18:16] <jdstrand> other than that, I'm done
[18:16] <mdeslaur> I'll take a look at that also
[18:18] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: cool thanks-- I fixed a few things last week, but didn't get a chance to focus on it
[18:18] <jdstrand> anything else?
[18:18] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: not from me
[18:18] <jdstrand> any questions for the security team?
[18:19] <mdeslaur> we also welcome complaints and/or donuts
[18:19] <jdstrand> s#complaints and/or ##
[18:19] <jdstrand> :)
[18:19] <mdeslaur> hehe
[18:19] <jdstrand> ok. thanks everyone!
[18:19] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[18:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:19.
[18:20] <ScottK> Don't forget some self congratuatlions about Ubuntu Server admins not shooting themselves in the head over clamav last week.
[21:04] <afterlastangel> so, when will it begin?
[21:05] <stk_> we are waiting here :-)