[04:43] <m4v> isidro1 seems to not have much patience...
[09:35] <Tm_T> hi all
[13:46] <Ddorda> does anyone know how to attach an image to a wiki page?
[13:51] <IdleOne> Ddorda: you can upload the image using the attachment link and then {{attachment:FILENAME.JPG}}
[13:52] <Ddorda> IdleOne: just found it thanks a lot :)
[13:52] <IdleOne> sure thing
[14:45] <Kangarooo> hello in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList/ is written Please make sure you are connected to irc.freenode.net .... why then there is clone server irc.ubuntu.com ?
[14:45] <Pici> Kangarooo: irc.ubuntu.com is the same thing as irc.freenode.net
[14:46] <Pici> technically, its a CNAME to chat.freenode.net
[14:46] <Kangarooo> Pici: yes i know so whats the reason for making this CNAME (clonename?)
[14:46] <Kangarooo> so its easyr to remember i could say as one reason
[14:47] <Pici> Kangarooo: to make things easier for users.  Plus if we ever wanted to change which IRC network hosted our channels, we could just change our DNS entry.  Not that we're going to be doing that though.
[14:47] <Kangarooo> easyr to rember where to find ubuntu comunity. any other reasons?
[14:48] <Kangarooo> well then in that page shpould be changed Please make sure you are connected to irc.freenode.net server  to irc.ubuntu.com
[14:49] <Kangarooo> or is there reason why not?
[14:49] <Pici> Well, the IRC network is still freenode's.
[14:51] <Kangarooo> yes so why should there be irc.freenode.com if irc.ubuntu.com is made so it would be easyr to remember and if dns changing happens and someone read in that page irc.freenode.com and settings are saved as that and he joins and noones there. so to awoid that shouldnt that be changed in wiki?
[14:53] <jpds> Kangarooo: irc.ubuntu.com purely exists so that default settings don't break horribly if we switch to a different network.
[14:59] <Kangarooo> jpds: so if my settings are irc.ubuntu.com and dns changing to another server happens ill be on new server irc.examplenode.net thrue irc.ubuntuc.om since my settings are like that and all will be working for me. but not for thouse who are on irc.freenode.net couse they will still be in old server. so that will split people. some stay on old some auto placed in new. so both see something happened- half of people lost for both.
[14:59] <Kangarooo> i hope my messege wasnt cut off.
[15:01] <Kangarooo> so if that dns happens then only ubuntu related channels will be copied to new hoster? if i understand correctly now host is irc.freenode.net
[15:01] <Pici> Kangarooo: It is very unlikely that we will ever be moving to a new irc network.
[15:02] <Kangarooo> also that shouldnt be happening becouse many open source projects are in irc.freenode.com
[15:03] <Kangarooo> so irc.ubuntu.com reason about dns isnt ever gonna be used
[15:07] <Pici> Correct.. I think.
[15:14] <Kangarooo> so then all info about irc.ubuntu.com should be removed. 2 servers also makes  confusion
[15:15] <persia> Um, let's not change this.
[15:16] <persia> There is a historical precedent of debian using irc.debian.org: at one point there was indeed a need to change networks, and those folk that connected to freenode were usually knowledgeable enough to know about the change, and those folk that connected to irc.debian.org didn't need to know.
[15:16] <persia> I certainly hope that there is no reason in the future to change from freenode, but we can't know the future.
[15:17] <Kangarooo> either one or other server. why 2 if dns change wont happen?
[15:17] <Kangarooo> ah ok so if it will happen then all wiki should be irc.ubuntu.com
[15:20] <Kangarooo> freenode might be removed as everything changes. but freenode wont be removed while there will be canonical ans it will be while ubuntu is. and ubuntu will be couse users count grows.
[15:20] <Kangarooo> couse canonical supports freenode
[15:26] <Kangarooo> if dns change to another server happens then only ubuntu channels will be copied to new server right?
[15:27] <Kangarooo> and old will be removed deleter or made inacesible with topic:"change to irc.ubuntu.com"
[15:28] <Pici> Yes, but like I said, there is very little chance that we would move off of freenode.
[15:35] <Kangarooo> so irc.ubuntu.com then is totaly useles
[15:36] <Kangarooo> it would be better since its made then its made usefull by putting it everywhere but its not everywhere so confusion problem will exist
[15:38] <Kangarooo> if i remember correct then i have seen irc.ubuntu.com only in xchat as default server and pidgin as default irc server. nowhere else. and some lists couse when problem occured in mentioned programms then server is also mentioned. is there any other places where irc.ubuntu.com is mentioned?
[15:41] <Kangarooo> by making this irc.ubuntu.com it gives feeling that ubuntu has its own server. thats a plus but only if its advertised in more wikis
[15:41] <Pici> I don't think that there is a confusion problem.  When you connect to irc.ubuntu.com it says you're connecting to freenode.
[15:42] <Kangarooo> really? i have never read thouse connecting lines. does everyone always read that?
[15:43] <Kangarooo> i always close immediatly. ive found that in xchat and irssi theres even plugins that dont show that up
[15:44] <Kangarooo> when started using ubuntu ive connected to freenode then once in xchat i tryd what is irc.ubuntu.com couse it was default.
[15:46] <Kangarooo> alrighty then ill post to programms who has irc.ubuntu.com as default server to remove that since thouse are only places where its advertised.
[15:47] <Pici> Kangarooo: What?  Nothing needs to be changed.
[15:48] <Kangarooo> is there a reason?
[15:48] <Pici> Is there a reason to change it?
[15:50] <Pici> All of the IRC clients in Ubuntu should be using irc.ubuntu.com port 8001 as their default settings.
[15:52] <Kangarooo> why? also then why is in wiki nowhere irc.ubuntu.com mentioned? only irc.freenode.com so in wiki theres no proof irc.ubuntu.com has any relation to ubuntu other then name. maybe its fake nem
[15:54] <Kangarooo> of course we know its not but users wont know that. why not remove confusion? mention same server in wiki and in programms
[15:54]  * ikonia offers assistance
[15:54] <m4v> there's chat.freenode.net and irc.freenode.net is that confusing too?
[15:55] <ikonia> I'm failing to understand that actual "problem"
[15:55] <ikonia> could someone simplfiy the problem
[15:59]  * gnomefreak thought irc.ubuntu* used irc.freenode
[16:00] <ikonia> it is
[16:00] <Pici> it does.
[16:00] <ikonia> it's just a cname
[16:00] <Kangarooo> 2 servers. (now someone told me theres actually 3- irc.freenode.net also forwards but to chat.freenode.net). both do the same. or doesnt? does irc.ubuntu.co does more? since we know freenode wont go away couse its supported theres no need to put just cname in programms
[16:00] <gnomefreak> maybe we should add it to the wiki?
[16:01] <ikonia> no-where is irc.ubuntu.com referenced though
[16:01] <ikonia> so I'm not seeing a problem
[16:01] <Kangarooo> Yes thats why im talking about. lets add only one server to all wikis about irc and ubuntu
[16:01] <m4v> Kangarooo: a cname isn't a server
[16:01] <m4v> there's only freenode's servers
[16:02] <Kangarooo> but cname in order to work needs server?
[16:03]  * gnomefreak not real sure what problem is i guess. maybe make a note on the wiki but i dont see why we should list all
[16:03] <tsimpson> if you don't like "irc.ubuntu.com", don't use it
[16:04] <h00k> I'm not following, either
[16:04] <gnomefreak> the name of the server should not matter since they all use irc.freenode*
[16:05] <Kangarooo> for all these reasons why something is made and what doesnt has reasons why its made. solution anyway would be everywhere (in wikis, in programms installed in ubuntu) putting only one server name
[16:05] <ikonia> the cname is used so that if anything changes, eg: ubuntu leaves freenodes servers ,just the cname changes
[16:06] <gnomefreak> IIRC its just the GUI clients that use it by default, i dont recall irssi using it but i have made alot of changes in the past few years
[16:06] <Kangarooo> ikonia: will ever ubuntu leave freenode since canonical supports freenode?
[16:06] <tsimpson> no one can answer that
[16:06] <tsimpson> it's not impossible, but not likely
[16:06] <k1l> Kangarooo: u never know :))
[16:07] <ikonia> Kangarooo: maybe
[16:07] <gnomefreak> debian left and at the same time we(CC) iirc decided to stay on freenode
[16:07] <ikonia> or maybe it starts it's own network
[16:07] <ikonia> maybe irc.ubuntu.com gets geographic support
[16:07] <ikonia> that's why it's there
[16:07] <tsimpson> isn't abstraction fun :)
[16:08] <gnomefreak> what wiki are we talking about anyway?
[16:09] <gnomefreak> name all seems redundant to me, but hey thats me ;)
[16:10] <Kangarooo> well then lets change in ubuntu wikis "irc.freenode.net" to "irc.ubuntu.com" that will also be for people easyr to remember and everyone will think irc.ubuntu.com has irc server. but that will later make another problem for user who already use freenode but will see in wikis irc.ubuntu.com. they will go with the same nick they use everywhere and will then understand (after their time beeing wasted) that thats the same server and they just needed to joind 
[16:10] <k1l> i think his point is that most clients use irc.ubuntu.com per default and the wiki (where ever it is) mentions irc.freenode.net
[16:10] <tsimpson> why, all the channels mentioned don't exist anywhere other than on freenode
[16:11] <tsimpson> so, you should make sure you're connected to freenode in particular if you want to access those listed channels
[16:11] <k1l> at least if u connect u get the freenode MOTD Kangarooo
[16:11] <gnomefreak> do we have to name all freenode servers that they give you when you log in/start irc client?
[16:12] <gnomefreak> wolfe.freenode.net (Manchester, England) is assigned to me and im in US
[16:12] <Kangarooo> k1l: ive never met anyone who reads chanserv and other serv. and user also comes to irc to get support and not read someserv
[16:13] <h00k> 'reads chanserv' ?
[16:13] <m4v> we have never met anyone with the problem you describe either
[16:14] <Kangarooo> couse they left and never came back couse that was obstacle for them
[16:14] <tsimpson> if we ever move away from freendoe, then we should change "irc.freenode.net" to "irc.ubuntu.com". but as we _do_ use freenode, and will do for the foreseeable future, I see no real point in searching out all mention of it in the wiki and changing it to "irc.ubuntu.com"
[16:14] <Kangarooo> thouse who had this problem could even come to #ubuntu-irc couse they wanted only to get #ubuntu
[16:14] <m4v> how can irc.ubuntu.com be an obstacle? it connects to freenode...
[16:14] <gnomefreak> xchat connects you to #ubuntu by default. that is too much of an obsticale for people to get help from #ubuntu?
[16:14] <tsimpson> it's just extra work and quite pointless
[16:15] <gnomefreak> other than smuxi al GUI clients drop you in #ubuntu if from our repos
[16:15] <gnomefreak> s/al/all
[16:16] <tsimpson> or #kubuntu
[16:16] <gnomefreak> right
[16:16] <Kangarooo> so as i already said at least 2 times solution is one server name everywhere. in wikis and in ubuntu irc programms
[16:16] <gnomefreak> we dont have domain under the packaging/packages decide
[16:16] <tsimpson> as I have said, there is no point in doing all that work
[16:16] <gnomefreak> of course some of us minght but point stand
[16:17] <Kangarooo> can anyone confirm whats default server in xchat in ubuntu? in pidgin its irc.ubuntu.com . changing that to irc.freenode.net is less work
[16:17] <gnomefreak> irc.ubuntu.net IIRC
[16:17] <tsimpson> why is changing it to "irc.freenode.net" less work?
[16:17] <k1l> Kangarooo: y change it? wouldnt that confuse user too?
[16:17] <Kangarooo> couse then its only 2 programms pidgin and xchat
[16:18] <gnomefreak> we would have to re-package all clients that is a load of work for something this trival
[16:18] <Kangarooo> k1l: no couse then everywhere will be irc.freenode.net
[16:18] <tsimpson> but why should it be changed? that's _extra_ work
[16:18] <k1l> "hey where im now? last day i was at ubuntu servers."
[16:18] <gnomefreak> xchat-gnome and all other except smuxi IIRC (GUI) not sure if text based do same
[16:19] <tsimpson> the user who just wants support doesn't care if it irc.freenode.net or irc.ubuntu.com, the other users know what a MOTD is and how to read it
[16:19] <gnomefreak> lets say we have to repackage 3 clients we would not be able to just push it to servers anyway since it is not a security issue
[16:19] <Kangarooo> gnomefreak: that can be done with next solution. also as i remember 2 month ago happened example packaging in ubuntu-learning how to change one line and package. that was 5min
[16:20] <Kangarooo> gnomefreak: also that is not necesery to do it now but on next packaging when some other issue is changed also
[16:20] <gnomefreak> Kangarooo: less that 5 minutses to change line another 30+ to build it and get it in archive or worse yet we have to make other changes
[16:21] <gnomefreak> Kangarooo: we can not change that without approval by archive admin as i recall (for only this change)
[16:21] <tsimpson> changing the default server is pointless, it'll still connect here, pointless...
[16:21] <k1l> and why change it to freenode.net and not change the wiki to irc.ubuntu.com?
[16:21] <gnomefreak> agreed
[16:21] <k1l> at least its ubuntu, so it would be nice to have the ubuntu name in the server name :)
[16:22] <gnomefreak> if you think you can change it feel free to package it and push it to our PPA but still pointless
[16:22]  * gnomefreak was thinking maybe rename wiki/ubuntu to wiki/ubuntu/community but it seems we did that already
[16:23] <Kangarooo> tsimpson: if user is in freenode and sees in wiki the same server he just connects to channel. and now in ubuntu pidgin and xchat default is irc.ubuntu.com . what is that? why is that there if in wiki is it not mentioned? only i now know what is that couse today i found out.
[16:23] <gnomefreak> connect through irc.freenode.net irc.ubuntu.net will still connect you to a different server. hint read /whois Kangarooo
[16:24] <tsimpson> irc.ubuntu.com == irc.freenode.net == irc.ubuntu.com
[16:24] <tsimpson> it matters not
[16:24] <Kangarooo> also irc.freenode.net connects to chat.freenode.net someone told me 1/2 h ago
[16:24]  * k1l votes for make a hint in wiki
[16:24] <jpds> Kangarooo: Yes.
[16:24] <tsimpson> yes, and?
[16:25] <gnomefreak> the name doesnt stay the same as freenode uses servers all around the world, distance doesn5t matter either
[16:25] <gnomefreak> its the other way around IIRC
[16:25] <jpds> irc.freenode.net.   56965   IN   CNAME   chat.freenode.net.
[16:25] <Kangarooo> tsimpson: im just bringin more facts
[16:26] <gnomefreak> sorry i havent read that many lines of scrolling junk in a long time
[16:26] <persia> Kangarooo: So, why do you want to change this?  You've spent a couple hours talking about this, but it's not clear to me that there's any benefit to changing anything.  Is something particularly confusing?  Do you fear some specific event?
[16:27] <gnomefreak> wait a minute at least in xchat/xchat-gnome you can easily change the servers since they are both listed in server area
[16:27] <gnomefreak> just click once :(
[16:29] <gnomefreak> Kangarooo: cant you edit a wiki?
[16:29] <gnomefreak> LP account == wiki rights
[16:30] <gnomefreak> feel free to change that one section but dont go edit crazy
[16:30]  * gnomefreak wonders why the wiki is a secret
[16:31] <Kangarooo> persia: since irc.ubuntu.com as cname so to change server if freenode dies isnt needed as freenode wont die couse its sponsored by canonical and canonical wont die since number of ubuntu users is growing im not afraid that that by connecting to irc.freenode.net i wont be able to get support couse that will never happen.
[16:31] <Kangarooo> persia: i want to change that so everywhere is only one servername listed.
[16:32] <persia> Yes, but why?
[16:32] <gnomefreak> Kangarooo: thats insane since it doesnt stay irc.*
[16:32] <persia> There's all sorts of reasons why it doesn't matter (which you've listed well)
[16:32] <persia> But why *does* it matter that there be one (and only one) way listed to connect when lots of ways work?
[16:32] <gnomefreak> wolfe.freenode.net may die but freenode wont die
[16:32] <persia> If there are confused users, or if there are problems, those need fixing.
[16:32] <Kangarooo> gnomefreak: yes but to find why is irc.ubuntu.com needed since it does the same i came first here to know. either all to irc.ubuntu.com either all to irc.freenode.net
[16:33] <persia> But if everything works, why not leave it alone?
[16:33] <tsimpson> it's there because it's a good thing to have it
[16:33] <k1l> Kangarooo: so for ur wish u want to confuse the growing number of users with this change of servers?
[16:33] <gnomefreak> can anyone use /whois and see irc.freenode.net irc.ubuntu.net or chat.freenode.net
[16:34] <m4v> gnomefreak: it won't show ubuntu.org
[16:34] <m4v> is always servername.freenode.net
[16:34] <gnomefreak> it wont show anything except the server you connected to so why should the cname be changed
[16:35] <gnomefreak> its a random server you connect to well anyone that is working
[16:36] <Kangarooo> persia: if some user uses freenode and now want to try ubuntu he finds in wiki theres irc.ubuntu.com he a.) disconects makes newserver with same nick and never know he is on same server. gets info logs off. b.) makes new server connects with same name finds his name is used b1.) register new nick b2.) finds out thats the same server
[16:37] <gnomefreak> maybe he/she should install a client we provide that wont be an issue
[16:37] <persia> Kangarooo: Aha!  That's a reasonable scenario.
[16:37] <m4v> but that's a user problem
[16:37] <persia> Kangarooo: But surely the right solution for that is to better expose the server notice on connect to users, so they can see it *is* the same network, rather than fiddle with DNS settings.
[16:38] <m4v> the user didn't understand that irc.ubuntu.com is the same that chat.freenode.net and irc.freenode.net
[16:38] <persia> Any change to DNS is definitely going to result in some users not being able to connect at all.
[16:38] <m4v> you can make everything foolproof
[16:38] <k1l> Kangarooo: there is a MOTD
[16:38] <tsimpson> if you want to edit the wiki, go for it. if you want to supply patches to the IRC clients, go for it. if you want to email canonical requesting they remove irc.ubuntu.com from their DNS records, go for it
[16:38] <gnomefreak> most clients let you connect to multiple servers at same time you can use same nick on both. i connect to mozilla.org debian.* and freenode* i use same nick for all
[16:38] <tsimpson> but don't expect much
[16:38] <k1l> the beginner user wont change server at all. the experienced user will hab a look in server window
[16:38] <m4v> err, T meant you can't!
[16:39] <gnomefreak> tsimpson: have you seen this wiki?
[16:39] <Kangarooo> persia: also strange is why in ubuntu im programms default irc server is irc.ubuntu.com but in wiki mentioned irc.freenode.net. sooner or later someone will still bring this up until that is changed. or even change to irc.ubuntu.com all wikis as i wanted and would be liked if i havend found out that for cname irc.ubuntu.com reason to change dns wont happen
[16:39] <tsimpson> gnomefreak: the only page I see mentioned is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
[16:39] <persia> Kangarooo: changing DNS is dangerous.  If you want to change the wiki: it's a wiki.  Edit it :)
[16:39] <gnomefreak> tsimpson: thanks
[16:40] <tsimpson> Kangarooo: you are the first, and we've used freenode for years and almost always mentioned freenode on the wiki/documentation pages
[16:40] <persia> Kangarooo: That said, *if* you edit the wiki, it would be nice to mention that irc.ubuntu.com points to the freenode IRC network, as the freenode folks deserve credit for providing such a wonderful service.
[16:40] <gnomefreak> i dont see server mentioned and im sure that wiki doesnt list all ubuntu channels
[16:40] <gnomefreak> There are many real-time discussion channels for the Ubuntu community via the freenode IRC service.
[16:41] <tsimpson> gnomefreak: at the top "Please make sure you are connected to irc.freenode.net server (port 6665, 6666, 6667, 7000, 7070, 8000, 8001, or 8002) in your IRC client"
[16:41] <gnomefreak> thats it
[16:41] <gnomefreak> ah
[16:41] <Kangarooo> persia: now i want to change programm default settings since in wiki all is correct and irc.ubuntu.com only does cname and nothing more.
[16:41] <tsimpson> in bold ;)
[16:41] <persia> Kangarooo: Then file lots of bugs, and wait 5 years.
[16:41] <persia> Kangarooo: Because of how the software is supported, it's lots easier to change the wiki than change the defaults.
[16:42] <Kangarooo> so in wiki all is ok. irc.freenode.net also is cname to chat.freenode.com but that is easyr to remember and most users recognize that
[16:42] <gnomefreak> i can provide patches or even fix it but im sure it wont be accepted until at least 2015
[16:42] <k1l> Kangarooo: why not make a hint in wiki?
[16:42] <tsimpson> Kangarooo: irc.ubuntu.com will not go away,  even if you convinced _us_, we don't control it
[16:42] <ikonia> oh my word, are we still discussing this
[16:42] <gnomefreak> its a minor change and most people will need more than just that change to push it
[16:42] <persia> Kangarooo: Really, the best solution is to restrict to wiki edits.  Changing all the software is far too complicated.
[16:42] <gnomefreak> ikonia: :)
[16:43] <m4v> Kangarooo: you're assuming things about "the users2, where is the proof that all you say do actually happens?
[16:43] <gnomefreak> maybe this is a staff+community council issue
[16:43] <persia> No.
[16:43] <m4v> I never heard of anyone getting confused over this
[16:43] <erUSUL> ikonia: hey it helps with "the text seen on this channel" monthly mean ;)
[16:44] <Kangarooo> k1l: about that you can also use irc.ubuntu.com? thats not good solution. also in ubuntu.com support irc that then need to be put and that wont look nice. use just one and thats it
[16:44] <persia> As far as the client configurations go, this is essentially unfixable in a reasonable timeframe.  The DNS is unfixable for the same reasons.  The wiki changes are trivial, and can be made if desired.
[16:44] <tsimpson> Kangarooo: there's no point in discussing this further, you've made your points and we have made ours
[16:45] <tsimpson> we disagree
[16:45] <persia> Kangarooo: Consider that nobody here *can* change the clients or DNS settings.  Even if everyone agreed with you, it simply can't be fixed.
[16:45] <k1l> Kangarooo: i do use irc.ubuntu.com
[16:45] <gnomefreak> personally i think not all ports are listed there. wikis are not perfect but give you an overview since there are too many varibles
[16:45] <txwikinger> lets hope ipv6 will never be used.. that shall confused everybody entirely :D
[16:45] <persia> Kangarooo: I agree you may have found a point of confusion, but please, if you're sure, just edit the wiki to reference irc.ubuntu.com and credit freenode for providing that network.  More discussion cannot change the unfixable nature of the issue.
[16:45] <Kangarooo> tsimpson: no irc.ubuntu.com dont need to go away. couse of default settings to im programms for irc now it needs to be couse many now use irc.ubuntu.com
[16:46] <gnomefreak> more breakage than confusion and worth anyway
[16:46] <ikonia> there is nothing wrong with the wiki as it currently stands
[16:46] <tsimpson> changing it would be purely cosmetic
[16:46] <ikonia> I'm failing to see the isue/confusion
[16:46] <tsimpson> anyway, I think this discussion has gone on long enough
[16:46] <tsimpson> we clearly do not agree
[16:47] <m4v> I use irc.m4v.com.ar!
[16:47] <gnomefreak> epiphany+wiki is broken/jumbled/overlapping bottons
[16:48] <Kangarooo> m4v: its assumed by logic by my experience and how i would look for solution. i generated in brains all possibilities.
[16:48] <ikonia> you're looking for a solution tfor a non existnt problem
[16:48]  * gnomefreak cant log in the login/register is hidden behind "titles" and "text" buttons
[16:49] <tsimpson> gnomefreak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=login
[16:49] <m4v> Kangarooo: and still we fail to see the problem you describe
[16:49]  * persia sees the problem, but believes it to be completely unfixable.
[16:50] <gnomefreak> ah ha
[16:50] <Kangarooo> m4v: you may not heard couse of this obstacle noone has came to channel where are you. for example to come to this channel user needs to know this channel. since only new user experience this problem and he experience only couse he came to server to find solution he goes away. he doesnt know about all channels and where to adress this.
[16:51] <gnomefreak> ok seems likely epiphany is not a shipable browser atm its only in epiphany that i get the overlapping
[16:51] <gnomefreak> that is 5 broken browsers so far
[16:51] <m4v> Kangarooo: and you do see it?
[16:51] <m4v> note that I'm not just in this channel
[16:51] <Kangarooo> k1l: i also use irc.ubuntu.com couse its default in pidgin in ubuntu for irc settings and after i tryd what this irc.ubuntu.com is and found that its the same freenode im also using this.
[16:52] <tsimpson> Kangarooo: if you think the packages should use another server, file bugs. if you think the wiki should be edited, edit it
[16:53] <persia> gnomefreak: works fine for me :)
[16:53] <gnomefreak> persia: epiphany?
[16:53] <persia> gnomefreak: Yep.
[16:53] <gnomefreak> we gropped gecko from epiphany right?
[16:53] <Kangarooo> ikonia: yes since irc.ubuntu.com doesnt need to be put in wiki since it has no use other then just cname it of course shouldnt be in wiki. but also it shouldnt be in programms. yes theres no problem in wiki also couse cname irc.freenode.net is reconizable more than chat.freenode.net
[16:54] <m4v> I will drop the issue, I do believe as well that there's nothing else to add and that we won't reach an agreement
[16:54] <Kangarooo> tsimpson: you didnt say for what "we" dont agree
[16:54] <persia> gnomefreak: I think so, but I haven't checked recently.  I use webkit.  I also think we're getting off-topic for this channel :)
[16:54] <gnomefreak> lol galeongive me a myportal error
[16:54] <tsimpson> Kangarooo: that is is an issue that requires fixing
[16:54] <gnomefreak> persia: we are
[16:55] <Kangarooo> tsimpson: i proposed 2 solutions
[16:55] <Tm_T> hi kids
[16:55] <tsimpson> really, I think we've gone over this enough now
[16:59] <Kangarooo> m4v: if u read all then u wont ask. problem at first was theres 2 servers witch do the same. we found out theres no need for 2 couse irc.ubuntu.com isnt mentioned anywhere but ubuntu im programms and its just cname in case dns will be changed and that wont happen couse its (someone said) dangerous and also ubuntu wont move away from freenode couse canonical supports freenode.
[17:00] <Kangarooo>  so only left and correct solution is changing default irc settings in ubuntu im programms from irc.ubuntuc.com to irc.freenode.net
[17:00] <persia> Kangarooo: As I said before, that would take more than 5 years.  Are you really sure it's worth it?
[17:01] <m4v> no, *you* found out there's no need, there isn't any "we" in what so said.
[17:01] <Kangarooo> persia: yes u said that. but why so long?
[17:01] <m4v> s/so/you/
[17:01] <tsimpson> LTS
[17:01] <persia> Kangarooo: It's past release freeze for 10.04, which will be supported until April 2015.
[17:02] <persia> and that class of change doesn't qualify for a post-release update.
[17:02] <Kangarooo> persia: in ubuntu-learning 2month ago example removing one line and packaging was 5min.
[17:02] <persia> Yep.
[17:02] <persia> It would take about that long (per client) to change for 10.10
[17:03] <k1l> Kangarooo: changing the wiki and making a hint there would be the most u can get NOW
[17:03] <persia> But since some users would still be on 10.04 until 2015, it doesn't change the state of things.
[17:03] <Kangarooo> m4v: we found couse noone said what is need
[17:03] <Pici> I still fail to see why this needs to be changed.
[17:05] <gnomefreak> fix it push it to your PPA and you will never have to worry about it again ;) be back in a bit smoke time
[17:05] <Kangarooo> Pici: you can read all or ask what exacly makes u fail to see that? changing default wont change connecting to server. youll still be in channels u were. its just one line - name of cname server witch does the same
[17:06] <Pici> Kangarooo: Oh, since its the same, then we don't need to change anything.
[17:06] <tsimpson> we have gone over this and over this and over this again
[17:06] <persia> There's already been *hours* of discussion as to whether this needs changing or not.  Let's please not rehash.
[17:06] <persia> The fact that we *can't* change it sensibly trumps whether it might be nice.
[17:07] <persia> Some users could conceivably be confused: surely that means that we ought look to specifically what documentation may be confusing, and attempt to address that.
[17:07] <Pici> persia: sorry, I was afk for a while.
[17:07] <persia> If nobody else, Kangarooo is an example of a confused user.
[17:07] <persia> Pici: Whilst you were away, we repeated ourselves a lot :)
[17:07] <Pici> yay
[17:08] <Kangarooo> ok thx all. finally all is clear so no more confusion and just productive connecting when this is done. any other questions after 30min i have to go to another chanel and ive been here for 3h already. fun to talk :)
[17:09] <persia> Kangarooo: Thanks.  If you find anywhere else in the documentaiton that is confusing, I'd recommend working withthe ubuntu-docs team to try to help make it clear.  Most of the time things like this are really hard to change in software, because of the support timeframes.
[17:09] <Kangarooo> persia: i asked there they silent. so im taking all in my own hands
[17:10] <persia> Kangarooo: Makes sense.  Sometimes it's good to ask others to get a clear picture, and then send a summary to a mailing list once the specifics of the confusion are understood.
[17:10] <persia> Most importantly, it's best to try to avoid raising disagreement, by discussing how to improve things, rather than starting from how things must change.
[18:03] <erUSUL> !preinstalled
[18:03] <erUSUL> jussi: ^^ utf-8 failure
[18:04] <jussi> !no, preinstalled is <reply>Looking for a system with Ubuntu preinstalled? see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuPre-installed
[18:04] <jussi> :)
[18:06] <erUSUL> tyvm jussi
[18:06] <jussi> no probs
[18:09] <vish> hmm , seems jussi lost his binaries :(
[18:10] <jussi> vish: lol, yeah
[18:10] <m4v> uhm, testpilot send me a weird ctcp