[00:00] <ScottL> detrate, ubuntu studio does have a very singular history and dynamic but i imagine we all still are open to hearing others suggestions
[00:00] <detrate> I know you need to defend your territory right now but your attitude will do nothing but deter my efforts to help you
[00:00] <detrate> troy_s: 
[00:00] <troy_s> detrate: Trust me. I have nothing to defend detrate. I am not really a part of this project.
[00:01] <troy_s> detrate: But I think you are fundamentally failing to address the core here. Let's assume population X. Of population X, you have %Y that is of the audience to which Ubuntu Studio caters (again we can debate until we are blue in the face as to who that should be, and what granularity etc.)
[00:01] <detrate> Do you lead a lot of communities or read about them in books?
[00:01] <troy_s> detrate: In the _greater_ world, that is a SMALL number. Artists, designers, musicians, etc. make up a seriously small percentage of the total base.
[00:02] <troy_s> detrate: It simply plays a game of numbers in there end. 
[00:02] <troy_s> detrate: No, actually I deal with bogus design decision in Freetard software every day because decisions are made in the name of everyone and everything - a fictional myth.
[00:02] <detrate> you should really consider your audience before saying such idiotic things
[00:03] <ckontros> detrate: Troy is a long-time friend of the project and trust me. Knows a thing ot 2. ;)
[00:03] <troy_s> detrate: I am considering my audience. I live in Free Software every single day friend. I have zero proprietary work in all of my work when it comes to software. I am, dare I say, part of that ecosystem.
[00:03] <ckontros> *or
[00:03] <troy_s> detrate: But we unfortunately juggle certain things and some of those things are numerical in nature. It is unavoidable.
[00:04] <troy_s> detrate: We could do well to attract say, a hot independent band to push things along (greater numbers for uptake) or a brilliant independent artist (again greater numbers via halo) etc.
[00:04] <ckontros> detrate: I personally am jazzed to see new folks like you in here but you might need to feel around a bit more. :)
[00:04] <detrate> as one of the founders of the new open-source first project shooter xonotic which spawns from a game I helped grow, Nexuiz www.alientrap.org/nexuiz -- which was recently sold behind all the contributors backs with engine developer lordhavoc (www.nexuiz.com), I know a bit about free software and communities surrounding them myself.
[00:05] <troy_s> detrate: Sure. But you surely wouldn't suggest for even a moment that Nexuiz is but more than a blip on the gaming scene right?
[00:05] <ScottL> ah cool, but how did you come up with the name nexuiz?
[00:06] <detrate> nexuiz was a name mispelled by the original artist and the founder didn't have him change it.  as weird of a name as it was, it was ours and we did a considerable amount to build and learn that game and the surrounding communities.
[00:07] <troy_s> detrate: And yet, it is still just a teeny little itsty blip.
[00:07] <troy_s> detrate: Which is something that we all struggle with. We aren't terribly relevant.
[00:07] <detrate> troy_s: did you win a gold award for being an asshole?
[00:07] <ckontros> detrate: We've had a target audience since the beginning but as the project is going through a rough patch, it could be time for a new direction. That's where ScottL comes in.
[00:07] <troy_s> detrate: Yes. Platinum.
[00:07] <ScottL> ha, that's a great story and funny how those things happen like that
[00:08] <troy_s> detrate: I'm just saying that no matter what you do, this comes down to audience.
[00:08] <detrate> troy_s: whatever audience you have, you're not hitting
[00:08] <troy_s> detrate: And some certainly are important - vision leaders etc., in the end, numbers will govern aspects of it.
[00:08] <detrate> I'm here offering my services to help define and target them better
[00:08] <ckontros> detrate: Really man, nobody's being aggressive here. No need for you to be.
[00:08] <troy_s> detrate: Again, _I_ have nothing to do with the drive of this project. Sorry. Although I will accept all responsibility for any and all failure.
[00:08] <troy_s> ;)
[00:08] <ScottL> you two argue _way_ over my head
[00:09] <troy_s> detrate: At any rate, I'd love to hear a solution. First however, I'd ask you to define a problem.
[00:09] <troy_s> detrate: Sound fair?
[00:09] <detrate> did you read the chat log?
[00:09] <ckontros> detrate: Actually, our original target we hit quite well I feel. It's just that those folks arent the best for building s development team. I feel they are mostly just end-users.
[00:09] <detrate> I defined it above
[00:10] <detrate> okay, I apologize, as I was focusing my comments on the new audience you wish to attract
[00:10] <detrate> I see now that I have offended the current audience you have attracted
[00:10] <troy_s> detrate: Yes. I still don't quite believe I have a handle on the problem _you_ are citing. I'm an idiot, so a little clarification would be excellent. Sorry...
[00:10] <detrate> and that was not my intent and I apologize for any confrontation that was had because of this.
[00:10] <troy_s> detrate: Bear with me... as I do value opinions very much.
[00:10] <rlameiro> hey guys, check this out
[00:10] <rlameiro> http://ur1.ca/vy1z
[00:10]  * ckontros hugs the channel. :P
[00:11] <detrate> Do you have a wiki I can outline my proposal in?
[00:12] <ScottL> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
[00:12] <ScottL> that's the first page, just make another
[00:12] <troy_s> detrate: All I can request right now is say, a two sentence summary of what you perceive to be the issue?
[00:12] <troy_s> detrate: Is that fair? A sort of 'Here is a problem I perceive' pitch if you will.
[00:12] <ScottL> detrate, wait, don't use that one...my bad
[00:12] <ScottL> hold one
[00:13] <troy_s> (after all, this is the Twitter world now... we went from 15 minute attention spans down to 30 second Bugs Bunny sound bites down to 140 character Twitter attention.)
[00:13] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
[00:13] <ScottL> try that one
[00:13] <detrate> I joined the group on launchpad
[00:14] <ckontros> detrate: Strong leadership is exactly what we need. I was it for, 4 releases I think now. I *HAD* to back off as it was/is effecting my home life. I hope ScottL can pull it together. If he really is up to taking the lead, then he's the guy to answer some of your questions that are spot on.
[00:14] <detrate> troy_s: you've already said you've had little to nothing to do with this project and now you're giving me direct orders?
[00:14] <troy_s> detrate: Wow. I'll bow out.
[00:14] <troy_s> detrate: Thanks for the chat.
[00:14] <detrate> I don't understand your angle is all
[00:14] <ckontros> detrate: And note, troy_s has asked in the past and helped us to get on the very same track. We're just a bit off it now. ;)
[00:15] <ckontros> *asked the same questions...
[00:16] <persia> And really, we need to answer the questions to be successful.  That troy_s is busy in other places doesn't make the questions less valuable.
[00:16] <ckontros> +1
[00:16] <ckontros> Hi Emmet. Damn. I miss talking to you guys. :)
[00:16] <rlameiro> where can we propose new software for US?
[00:16] <persia> Hey Cory.
[00:17] <rlameiro> http://ur1.ca/vy1z 
[00:17] <rlameiro> does this software fit the bill for the US?
[00:17] <ckontros> rlameiro: There /should/ be a wiki page but I think there's more fundamental questions to tackle 1st. (app does look cool though)
[00:18] <detrate> I cannot login to edit the wiki
[00:18] <detrate> odd
[00:18] <detrate> I'm in launchpad
[00:19] <rlameiro> ckontros: yeah, i know, but I think it could be useful
[00:19] <ckontros> I feel that if ScottL had the will (and a bit of time) he can do it. After all, It's all I had when I started things. ;)
[00:20] <ckontros> Well, that and a bit of JoeJaxx. :)
[00:20] <ScottL> yeah, things will get done, but it will take time ;)
[00:20] <JuniperJaxx> hi
[00:20] <ckontros> FAIL!!!
[00:20] <JuniperJaxx> rofl
[00:20] <ckontros> hahahahha
[00:21] <ckontros> JuniperJaxx: Don't you have a 50cent concert to be at?
[00:21] <rlameiro> well, as i am not a dev, what are the more important things to do for US?
[00:21] <ScottL> testing and documenation
[00:21] <persia> testing, testing, testing.
[00:22] <ScottL> followed by more testing
[00:22] <rlameiro> i am testing :D
[00:22] <JuniperJaxx> ckontros: lol yeah right
[00:22] <ckontros> rlameiro: Current direction for the project. What it aims to be for the future.
[00:22] <rlameiro> well, not testing iso actually, but yeah, testing
[00:22] <persia> rlameiro: We've just got new ISOs published for Lucid RC.  HAve you had a chance to test if they actually install?
[00:22] <troy_s> detrate: Sorry too. I wasn't giving a 'direct order' either. I was merely asking for a really quick summary of what you perceived a / the problem to be. I don't think you will find a SINGLE person in here that wants this project to fail. In fact, quite the opposite. It likely stems from a disparity of exactly what the 'problem' is, hence my asking.
[00:22] <rlameiro> i need to test the RC iso
[00:22]  * ckontros goes to eat dinner.
[00:23] <rlameiro> persia: I got the e-mail, i need to download it and make a 3rd ubnut install on my laptop :D
[00:23] <persia> Yeah.  We need a complete set of test coverage on the RC ISO if we're going to make a lucid release.
[00:23] <ScottL> yeah, i learned an important lesson about testing the ISO when an ISO didn't get released because all test cases were not complete
[00:23] <ScottL> i will be paying special attention to the test cases and mail the -user list as needed
[00:23] <rlameiro> ok, what test case are less made?
[00:23] <persia> rlameiro: For ISO testing, I usually just use a throwaway space, to wipe/reinstall as needed for ISO testing.  MY experience is that it's not worth keeping the install results.
[00:23] <ckontros> ISO testing is important. If we're not tested enough, they can stop being published.
[00:23]  * ckontros really gone now.
[00:24] <ScottL> lol
[00:24] <rlameiro> well, i dont have a chance to make a full hdd install, but i can make the test on partition
[00:24] <rlameiro> or at least on the available one
[00:25] <rlameiro> i386 or 64, what is less tested?
[00:27] <ScottL> my guess is the i386
[00:27] <ScottL> but just watch the test cases and see which ones aren't completed, check every day
[00:28] <TheMuso> I can pitch in with iso testing if need be.
[00:29] <rlameiro> ok, rsync or zsync?
[00:29] <TheMuso> Whatever works for you
[00:29] <TheMuso> zsync is supposedly quicker.
[00:30] <ckontros> (and better on the server as per crimsun)
[00:31] <rlameiro> ok
[00:32]  * ScottL is going outside with the kids, be back in a bit
[00:32] <rlameiro> why would ubuntustudio need a mandatory LTSP test?
[00:32] <persia> I'd call that a bug in the ISO test coverage list.
[00:33] <persia> Asking in #ubuntu-testing ought be enough to make that go away.
[00:33] <rlameiro> well, they have that test cases for the alternate iso
[00:33] <rlameiro> iin general...
[00:33] <ScottL> or the encryption test?  and what is the LTSP test?
[00:33] <ckontros> rlameiro: Our installer is different for one.
[00:33] <ckontros> Oh wait,
[00:34] <ckontros> I misread as "LTS" :P
[00:34] <rlameiro> lol
[00:34] <rlameiro> no, whas my fail
[00:34] <rlameiro> i clicked the wrong link
[00:34] <ckontros> Yeah. I agree w/persia. We shouldn't need it.
[00:34] <rlameiro> puff, i started to be scared, whrere we would find people to test with thin clients
[00:34] <rlameiro> lol
[00:35] <detrate> sorry for my brief absence, I was adding my ideas to the wiki page as requested: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
[00:35] <detrate> I will review the log now
[00:35] <ckontros> np
[00:36] <persia> detrate: Lots of us regularly do other things whilst idling, and read logs: don't worry if you do as well, as otherwise you'll never get anythig done.
[00:36] <ckontros> Ok. Time to take care of the fam. Later guys.
[00:37] <detrate> no comments on my proposal?
[00:37] <detrate> okay
[00:37] <detrate> well that's just coincidence I guess.
[00:38] <persia> detrate: your proposal is "New Website Vision"?
[00:40] <detrate> yes
[00:41] <persia> I've no real opinion on that then, but I agree we have to better define the goals before how we implement stuff matters
[00:41] <rlameiro> detrate: i like the idea, but would it be better to do it in drupal?
[00:41] <detrate> no
[00:41] <persia> Moving to wordpress makes it easy to update the website with article-like stuff, but that's only a benefit if someone is writing article.
[00:41] <troy_s> detrate: What is a perceived bottleneck?
[00:42] <persia> And *which* system (drupal, wrodpress, etc.) makes no difference at all.
[00:42] <detrate> yes, which system does matter
[00:42] <troy_s> Amen to persia.
[00:42] <persia> detrate: It's an implementation detail.
[00:42] <rlameiro> word press is having some security issues in this times
[00:42] <persia> detrate: The content matters.  How the content is presented should be selected based on who is updating the content.
[00:42] <detrate> because network solutions database was hacked?
[00:43] <persia> rlameiro: It's not worth us arguing about which is the right tool: the right tool is the tool that makes the work *by the person doing the work* easiest.
[00:43] <detrate> I know how to package content to help spread information, which is essentially what you're aiming to accomplish
[00:43] <rlameiro> well, what i would love ist to forward articles from blogs that mention ubuntustudio, i would love that
[00:44] <TheMuso> I'd agree about the CMS being an implementation detail, but I also put my hand up for drupal. I t has a lot of commercial backing, and Canonical also uses it, not that that makes any difference or us.
[00:44] <detrate> okay, well I'm also a web developer and I prefer wordpress as do many others. I have a working formula base of plugins and the ease of maintaince for both users and developers is smoother in wordpress in my experience.
[00:44] <rlameiro> persia: agree with you, i just was asking, because i dont understand so much of cms/blogging platforms
[00:44] <troy_s> rlameiro: With regards to the overall showing how 'alive' Ubuntu Studio is (arguably a pretty compelling factor to a casual audience member) I think it is a pretty astute point.
[00:44] <detrate> clients often find drupal over the top for their needs and I don't see how we'd need all of drupal for this
[00:44] <detrate> I mean, the current site is in drupal
[00:44] <persia> Can we all just agree that once there is a plan for a website, whoever accepts responsibility to ensure the website is in good condition gets to select the tools used to drive the website?
[00:45] <detrate> and it's not even being utilized
[00:45] <TheMuso> persia: Yeah I agree
[00:45] <detrate> canonical also moved the window buttons to the left on an LTS
[00:45] <troy_s> detrate: That gets back to defining what the perceived bottleneck _is_, to whom, and what possible design solutions can be provided to overcome it.
[00:46] <detrate> to people like myself who want to help the project grow but don't really have an outlet.
[00:46] <troy_s> detrate: But you see, that is one half of the picture would you not agree?
[00:46] <rlameiro> I vote for the maintainer to use the tool that fit best to his own workflow, so wordpres :D
[00:46] <troy_s> detrate: Ubuntu Studio has an implied audience of people that (hopefully lol) rely on the software to achieve their goals / meet their needs / etc.
[00:47] <detrate> okay, so websites aren't considered software now?
[00:47] <troy_s> detrate: And in the end, it is _that_ audience that the design _must_ cater to. Not the other way around. The other side is _certainly_ important, but basing every design decision on the developer(?) core is likely faulty.
[00:48] <troy_s> detrate: The website is clearly important. I'm not disagreeing with you. But when you suggest that 'people who want to help the project grow', that's a HUGE selection of people there. And each one has a pretty significant role.
[00:48] <troy_s> detrate: Is a developer important? The website admin? HELL Yes.
[00:48] <rlameiro> troy_s: i get you, but at this moment, US needs people and needas a revamped website, wheather it is drupal, joomle, wordpres or tikiwiki
[00:48] <ScottL> i will help with content, etc
[00:49] <detrate> are there any services that are currently aggregating information from or to the website?
[00:49] <troy_s> rlameiro: Agree. The issue I see though is that all the development in the world isn't going to provide salvation if the tools aren't uptaken by the proper audience and demonstrated to be effective. It's a strange cyclical issue here.
[00:49] <troy_s> rlameiro: Follow me?
[00:50] <detrate> when all you haves a hammer, everything looks like a nail
[00:50] <rlameiro> more or less, i am new to this involvement on the dev team
[00:50] <rlameiro> well, what would be the community features?
[00:51] <troy_s> detrate: I guess I'd start by suggesting what is the _core goal_ of the project.
[00:51] <rlameiro> who can post, how?
[00:51] <troy_s> If the core goal is to provide a service, what is it? To whom?
[00:51] <ScottL> detrate, no service are aggregating to or from it right now i believe
[00:51] <rlameiro> will it have a calaendar for instance etc?
[00:51] <troy_s> And likely the answer to _that_ important question, is precisely who the audience for the primary website touch point is.
[00:53] <troy_s> CUT TO: Crickets chirping.
[00:53] <detrate> I'm really more here to provide you a shell FOR YOUR vision and guide you on how to reach your audience with specific content
[00:53] <ScottL> sorry, kids are driving me nuts
[00:53] <rlameiro> lol
[00:53] <detrate> :-p
[00:53] <rlameiro> detrate: will it be easy to integrate openid with the site
[00:53] <rlameiro> for instance to upload screenshots
[00:54] <ScottL> i would suggest the website is the nexus for users, it should include news, updates, links to tutorials, user work
[00:54] <troy_s> detrate: I don't think there is any shortage of people that are amazingly gifted at solving problems in here. (I'd point to crimsun and persia etc. but that would just look like suckholing.)
[00:54] <rlameiro> maybe selecting people from launchpad teams etc?
[00:54] <detrate> rlameiro: there is a plugin for both a great gallery script that has public upload and openid
[00:54] <ScottL> user work = music, videos, graphics
[00:54] <troy_s> detrate: The bigger problem seems to stem from figuring out _just_ what to do and why.
[00:55] <ScottL> polling would be nice to involve the user base so they can be involved in development
[00:55] <rlameiro> troy_s: well, maybe we should strat to make an outline then?
[00:55] <rlameiro> what social media to have?
[00:55] <rlameiro> tweeter and identi.ca
[00:55] <detrate> there are some great plugins for polls, some medicore free ones for surveys
[00:55] <ScottL> place for suggestions would also be nice
[00:55] <rlameiro> facebook..... well dunno
[00:56] <ScottL> all the social media as well
[00:56] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think that that would be a HELLUVA good choice at this critical time for Ubuntu Studio.
[00:56] <detrate> great plugin for contact form that a user of any skill could change the copy for
[00:56] <detrate> facebook = #2 site on the internet
[00:56] <troy_s> rlameiro: Damn good choice. Because otherwise it could end up with a LOT of energy that yields no dividends. Or worse, a lot of energy that gets trumped by the next 'why' (however poorly explained) to come along.
[00:56] <detrate> in terms of traffic
[00:56] <rlameiro> detrate, is it possible to parse the identica and tweeter streams to search for ubuntustudio tags?
[00:57] <detrate> yes
[00:57] <detrate> and digg
[00:57] <ScottL> detrate, most of those involved with Studio are great at hacking things, so once it's set up i would imaging that we could keep things progressing
[00:57] <detrate> and google blogs
[00:57] <detrate> which is exactly what I'd like to see
[00:57] <ScottL> yes, place for developer blogs and well as an aggregator for user blogs that center around Studio
[00:57] <detrate> I want to give you a stronger foundation to evolve from
[00:58] <rlameiro> ok, so is it possible to cross over the identification system with a specific launchpad team?
[00:58] <ScottL> is anyone writing this down?  LOL
[00:58] <rlameiro> in this case ubuntustudio team?
[00:59] <detrate> that I'm not sure of
[00:59] <rlameiro> ScottL: can this be copyed from the log bot?
[00:59] <ScottL> if not then I will put it into the sandbox wiki later after i handle the kids
[00:59] <detrate> I was hoping we can specific specific user roles for certain users
[00:59] <ScottL> rlameiro, should be able to
[00:59] <ScottL> detrate, three come to mind off the top of the head: admin, dev, user
[01:00] <ScottL> admin goes everyone and does everything
[01:00] <ScottL> dev can post articles, blog
[01:00] <detrate> it's a bit different than that
[01:00] <detrate> there are default roles
[01:00] <detrate> you can expand on them with plugins if you need
[01:00] <rlameiro> detrate: that is a good idea, but everyone in here has work, kids etc, so people need to have freedom to jump from diferent roles
[01:00] <detrate> can drupal do this?
[01:01] <ScottL> yes, drupal has roles
[01:01] <rlameiro> yes
[01:01] <detrate> no, I mean the tight integration with openid
[01:01] <detrate> and inheriting the roles
[01:01] <rlameiro> with opeid yes, but with launchpad i dont know..
[01:01] <detrate> okay, so we are at the same point
[01:01] <rlameiro> maybe
[01:02] <detrate> I have to look into it more to know if that's possible
[01:02]  * rlameiro is diggin some page about ubuntu and drupal things
[01:02] <detrate> hmmm https://code.launchpad.net/wordpress-openid-integration
[01:03] <detrate> oh, not what I thought actually
[01:03] <rlameiro> detrate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDrupal
[01:03] <rlameiro> yes it haves
[01:04] <rlameiro> launchpad integration
[01:04] <rlameiro> https://launchpad.net/drupal-launchpad
[01:04] <persia> So, just out of curiosity, which problem are we solving with this?
[01:05] <ScottL> integration with launchpad?   (i don't really know, just saying)
[01:05] <rlameiro> persia: integration with the launchpad :D
[01:05] <persia> My concern is that if we're solving the not-enough-users problem, and we don't have other solutions in place for the not-enough-support-folks, not-enough-testers, and not-enough-developers, we end up with lots of annoyed users.
[01:05] <detrate> does the current site integrate with launchpad?
[01:06] <ScottL> don't think so ;)
[01:06] <rlameiro> no AFAIK
[01:06] <rlameiro> persia: i am trying to spread the word, ScottL made an interview on the OSMPodcast
[01:06] <detrate> is this really a necessary feature?
[01:06] <troy_s> persia: Prescient.
[01:07] <ScottL> i would like a snazzy new website, that's flashy and attractive, which user can come to often for news and updates and the "inside scoop" on ubuntu studio
[01:07] <troy_s> persia: Or perhaps, what exactly is being solved.
[01:07] <rlameiro> so i hope, we get some more help
[01:07] <detrate> name_user_roles - (serialized) this is a built-in WordPress option, so the plugin certainly doesn't modify it directly.  It does however add the capability named "use_openid_provider" that controls which user roles are allowed use their author URLs as OpenIDs (either using the local OpenID provider, or delegating elsewhere).
[01:07] <detrate> http://wiki.diso-project.org/wordpress-openid-api
[01:07] <detrate> I'm not sure what help that is as I'm not really familiar with the openid system
[01:08] <rlameiro> yeah, for instance to talk about possible upcoming features, like dbused jack  etc
[01:08] <ScottL> i personally don't think that integration with launchpad is all that necessary, i think we need the people who aren't already using launchpad to help to add to the aggragate
[01:09] <ScottL> the news section needs to have RSS so users can subsribe to get new news
[01:09] <persia> Let's ask some fundamental questions.  What do we do?  Are we building a flavour?  Supporting multimedia software?  Writing integration tools?
[01:09] <rlameiro> a link to the ubuntustudio section at the ubuntuforums
[01:09] <troy_s> ScottL: ?
[01:10] <ScottL> troy_s, yes?
[01:10] <troy_s> ScottL: I was wondering your opinion on persia's question.
[01:10] <rlameiro> persia: sorry, I dont get you questions
[01:10] <ScottL> oh, didn't see it...reading and ignoring the family
[01:10] <troy_s> rlameiro: What portion of his question?
[01:11] <rlameiro> troy_s: all of it
[01:11] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think he is asking that someone step up and frame the problem. What exactly is the _goal_ of the project.
[01:11] <troy_s> rlameiro: Make sense?
[01:11] <rlameiro> troy_s: yes it makes
[01:11] <ScottL> hmmm, the goal is providing multimedia software in me opinion
[01:11] <troy_s> ScottL: Ok hold on then. Multimedia.
[01:11] <troy_s> ScottL: Where are you drawing the line?
[01:11] <ScottL> with goals to increase the scope into script writing
[01:11] <ScottL> etc
[01:11] <rlameiro> i think a flavour
[01:12] <ScottL> those don't answer your quesion troy_s 
[01:12] <troy_s> ScottL: Hold on. Photography software is multimedia software. So is it for iPhoto like stuff?
[01:12] <ScottL> troy_s, to answer your question it might even include website development software, don't know iPhoto
[01:12] <rlameiro> A flavour of PRO software for Multimedia/artistic  purposes
[01:13] <persia> So, to frame my questions: we currently do all of that.  We currently do most of it in a fairly weak manner, for complex reasons.
[01:13] <ScottL> true
[01:13] <troy_s> ScottL: Ok. That's a big scope. And rlameiro's question begs a further question. For whom?
[01:13] <persia> I think if we remind ourselves of the goals, we can probably identify what needs doing better.
[01:13] <rlameiro> troy_s: for me for instance
[01:13] <troy_s> rlameiro: Ok. Then I'd say the project is already there. 
[01:13] <persia> And once we know what needs doing, we can better determine what roles exist, and develop a strategy to staff them.
[01:14] <rlameiro> not yet
[01:14] <troy_s> rlameiro: You are a savvy sophisticated type that can knows what a package is, knows how to install Linux, etc.
[01:14] <rlameiro> ther are things that arent in th US
[01:14] <persia> And once we have staffed roles, we can handle lots of publicity.  Right not, publicity is only likely to lead to questionable reviews.
[01:14] <troy_s> ScottL: I think that persia's question is precisely the issue in _much_ of what we do, well beyond Ubuntu Studio.
[01:15] <rlameiro> Ok, i get persi, without a strong release, we cant put ourself on the wild
[01:15] <scott__> sorry, had to go upstairs, family too loud
[01:15] <troy_s> rlameiro: Not just that.
[01:15] <troy_s> rlameiro: What is 'strong'?
[01:15] <troy_s> rlameiro: Are you trying to grow an audience?
[01:15] <rlameiro> yes
[01:15] <rlameiro> why not?
[01:15] <troy_s> rlameiro: And if so, from where? If it is to attempt to unify the various media distributions, then that is one audience.
[01:15] <scott__> i was thinking we could even offer something like icecast or podcast applications
[01:16] <rlameiro> well, if it is, than be it
[01:16] <troy_s> rlameiro: If you are thinking bigger, then you inevitably bump into the fact that even the most SAVVY OSX / Windows user is lost with much of what we accept as vernacular.
[01:16] <persia> troy_s: It's the same question for any domain.  What do we do?  Why?  Why does it matter?  How shall we do it?  But really, let's narrow the focus to the current area of discussion :)
[01:16] <troy_s> persia: Trying. ;)
[01:16] <rlameiro> well, i can fram my ide of a future US
[01:17] <troy_s> persia: Because _delivery_ is pretty important _and_ diverse depending on who that audience is.
[01:17] <rlameiro> A easy to use, with live CD to test, easy to configure pro settings and witha clean and readable theme
[01:17] <troy_s> persia: Explaining what an ISO is for example, versus not needing to (if you are borrowing from other distribution audiences for example)
[01:17] <scott__> rlameiro, but you are thinking audio probably
[01:18] <rlameiro> about the easy to test  i made a proposal that nobody commented in 3 weeks
[01:18] <troy_s> persia: I say this because I know a GOOD number of earn-their-living professional audio types that would be UTTERLY lost in the current incarnation.
[01:18] <scott__> Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia editing/creation flavor of Ubuntu. It's built for the GNU/Linux audio, video, and graphic enthusiast or professional.
[01:18] <rlameiro> scott__: not only, i think video and processing and openframeworks etc
[01:18] <scott__> from the website
[01:18] <troy_s> persia: If you follow my reasoning.
[01:18] <troy_s> It's an extremely valuable discussion. I'm glad it is happening actually.
[01:19] <persia> troy_s: Reasonable critique, although I'm unsure if we want that many of that audience in testing: they need post-release stable to do their work, and any testing would have to be *separate*.
[01:19] <scott__> cory has always maintained that Studio didn't cater to the newbie
[01:19] <rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
[01:19] <troy_s> persia: Totally agree with you. Each audience brings a certain set of design constraints and some are likely ... unattainable?
[01:19] <troy_s> scott__: Newbie means different things too. Is it an OSX Newb or a Debian packager type newb?
[01:19] <scott__> rlameiro, i've wrapped up a few things so I should comment this weekend
[01:19] <persia> troy_s: I prefer to think not.  Let's call it "hard to arrange".
[01:19] <troy_s> scott__: Complex as _hell_.
[01:20] <scott__> BUT, if we had documentation to support these people we have lowered the threshold significantly
[01:20] <rlameiro> well, there are leves of "noobiness" the distro cant get to
[01:21] <rlameiro> that is for sure, but there are other things that can be done to help people, for example having network out the box
[01:21] <scott__> i think a large part of the reticence of our base user is because of this technical knowledge, or lack of, and more documentation would really help us in these cases
[01:21] <scott__> reticence to help us, that is
[01:21] <troy_s> persia: Ok. I know in terms of image processing for example, the faults in GIMP are unarrangeable.
[01:22] <persia> troy_s: I thought some of that got fixed with the 48-bit changes.
[01:22] <troy_s> persia: Practically for example, you cannot do xxx with it, so there is a certain degree of misleading a particular audience if you choose to attempt to address them.
[01:22] <troy_s> persia: No. Deep colour is still years away.
[01:22] <persia> Ugh.  Oh well.
[01:22] <scott__> we need cinepaint for that, right?
[01:22] <troy_s> persia: It's an utterly useless app to any serious professional or intermediate grade environment.
[01:22] <persia> I don't think GIMP targets that group though.
[01:23] <persia> I think another tool needs to do that.
[01:23] <troy_s> scott__: Cinepaint is buggy as hell. It _does_ it, but fails miserably in terms of practical 'let's get er done'
[01:23] <persia> But that requires another tool.
[01:23] <troy_s> persia: Problem is that GIMP hasn't addressed audience until recently.
[01:23] <persia> One thing I'm sure about: this is not the right team to develop new tools.
[01:23] <troy_s> persia: Thanks to some of Peter Sikking's effort.
[01:23] <persia> Might be the right people, but not the right team.
[01:23] <troy_s> persia: Hell no. But you follow me when I say that certain things might not be attainable if you blindly profess to be appealing to audience x.
[01:24] <rlameiro> persia: what tools are you talking about?
[01:24] <troy_s> persia: I mean, I know in terms of imaging, Linux is laughable. I can't speak for audio, and likely neither can anyone in this forum.
[01:24] <scott__> are we still framing the question as to what we do?
[01:24] <rlameiro> troy_s: actually audio its going up in linux exponetially
[01:25] <persia> rlameiro: new tools being core development of new applications, rather than perhaps building some minor integration utilities (which we've historically done)
[01:26] <scott__> which is a major misconception in the community IMO (that we do core development of new applications)
[01:26] <troy_s> rlameiro: Not disagreeing, just saying that saying 'professional audio' without getting a canvas of professionals to evaluate is ... a tad myopic.
[01:26] <rlameiro> persia: ah ok, but making scripts for configuration and alike are ok, aren't them?
[01:26] <persia> rlameiro: Absolutely.  Integration is what Ubuntu does, and we're part of Ubuntu.
[01:27] <rlameiro> troy_s: I have a Degree in Music, and at the moment a 2 year music master
[01:27] <rlameiro> i think i can speak about it
[01:27] <scott__> side question: rlameiro do you have access to protools?
[01:28] <rlameiro> i can askt to some frinds, but yes i can ask for a mac frind, why?
[01:28] <scott__> that could be argued to be industry standard for professional audio
[01:28] <rlameiro> scott__: ardour is getting there with mdi on v3
[01:28] <persia> rlameiro: The key isn't how much we know, it's what we do.  Until we find studios saying "Yeah, that's good" and e.g. accepting ardour session files for mastering, it's too soon to say that we're really doing professional audio.  Note that I know folks who *use* Ubuntu to generate income-producing audio (and we have some in this conversation), but that's not quite the same thing.
[01:28] <scott__> linux plugins are not nearly a match as proprietary
[01:29] <rlameiro> and we have JACK that everyone is using ion mac, even the protools user
[01:29] <scott__> so...we can frame ourselves by removing the professionals?
[01:29] <scott__> perhaps including the semi-pro
[01:29] <rlameiro> persia: agreed, but why are we centring audio on studios?????
[01:30] <scott__> troy_s, certainly has shown that graphics are not professional and we should all know that video isn't pro
[01:30] <rlameiro> if we center it on the users and musicians, they wil naturally push it up, not the reverse
[01:31] <persia> rlameiro: That's how the market works.  Note that I'm not saying we don't have great stuff.  My mother uses it regularly, and music is a big part of her profession, but it's a semantic distinction.
[01:31] <rlameiro> but a studio requires proven tools, and that its impossibl for linux, at least for this time
[01:31] <persia> And I know lots of studios that *do* use it.  It's just not all the way there yet.
[01:31] <scott__> it sounds like Ubuntu Studio is going through a "rebranding"
[01:31] <persia> scott__: Is it?  That's your call.
[01:32] <rlameiro> Studio its ok
[01:32] <rlameiro> why would we change it? Studio isnt only the pros, its the little creator at home, its the musician
[01:32] <scott__> i think it should but in subtle ways and gradually over time
[01:33] <rlameiro> actually studio is a word that identify a place for reheasal , the recording labels used it to the recording rooms, nothing more
[01:34] <rlameiro> the name Ubuntustudio is recognized a lot in very diffiicult to penetrate hardcore groups, for intance, puredata users
[01:34] <scott__> i don't think we should change the name rlameiro, just our focus
[01:34] <rlameiro> i lost the count of the time i read on puredata mailing list that people used ubuntustudio
[01:35] <rlameiro> and puredata useres are people comming from very important music schools, composers etc
[01:35] <scott__> troy_s, you still here?
[01:36] <rlameiro> they like the idea to have a system with realtime priority and stable audio and processing power to do the job
[01:36] <rlameiro> sometimes people even answer like, for that kind of patch you will need a rt kernel and linux :D
[01:37]  * scott__ is going downstairs with the family for a bit, it's bedlam down there, be back in a minute
[01:37] <rlameiro> well i will stops talkin, lol :D
[01:38] <troy_s> rlameiro: I am not questioning your ability, but by 'pro' there is 'earn-one's-living' implied, and that means other constraints.
[01:39] <troy_s> rlameiro: Darnit... persia said exactly my point. Erk.
[01:39] <ScottL> which point troy_s ?
[01:39] <troy_s> scott__: Rebranding or actually addressing the core issues (perhaps finally)
[01:40] <troy_s> scott__: (05:28:50 PM) persia: rlameiro: The key isn't how much we know, it's what we do. [...]
[01:40] <troy_s> scott__: But I will say that rlameiro is coming around to a very viable audience. ;)
[01:41] <rlameiro> well, if you look at the puredyne distro
[01:41] <rlameiro> they are on another things people use in multimedia arts
[01:41] <ScottL> troy_s, sometimes i'm slow, core issues = what we do?
[01:42] <rlameiro> things like having pd extende, or processing or arduino etc could help to bring some people that are more savvy in the sence they are a kind of hackers
[01:43] <rlameiro> well its getting late for me
[01:43] <troy_s> scott__: The part about that 'pro' label - it doesn't work for pro (likely and there are likely many concrete examples)
[01:43] <rlameiro> almost 2 am in here...
[01:43] <troy_s> scott__: But say, university uptake (as rlameiro suggests with the multimedia arts) is certainly viable.
[01:44] <troy_s> scott__: So it seems that figuring out that _who_ helps to define exactly _what_ needs to be done / solved / negotiated.
[01:44] <rlameiro> troy_s: i think we would need to go up there
[01:44] <troy_s> scott__: And why I always harp on audience.
[01:44] <troy_s> rlameiro: Sorry?
[01:44] <ScottL> well, yeah, that's kinda why i mentioned what the website says, it's kinda bothered me for a while that something "pro" takes so much knowledge and investment to get the base system functional, troy_s 
[01:45] <rlameiro> the multimedia arts :D
[01:45] <troy_s> scott__: MANY of the points of bikeshed evaporate and the direction for MANY complicated questions are almost automatically solved simply by specifying 'who'.
[01:45] <troy_s> rlameiro: Problem is, it is likely broad.
[01:46] <ScottL> most of my feeling wouldn't be hurt if Studio was an audio distro ;)
[01:46] <rlameiro> well, troy_s in the redesign proposal i made, there is a place to install software outside ubuntu repos, untill they dont get there
[01:46] <troy_s> rlameiro: And if that is the case (say for example, University fine arts department) how easy is it currently to deploy? Realistically of course I'd ask. In what way could say, Ubuntu Studio provide a vital role in that system? How can it more greatly cater to that audience? What is to be learnt?
[01:46] <troy_s> scott__: I couldn't agree more. :)
[01:47] <troy_s> scott__: Look at the vast breadth of ability here, and pull a percentage. That clarity might help it out? 
[01:47] <ScottL> but that is really a reflection on linux rather than ubuntu or studio
[01:47] <ScottL> are people waiting for me to make a decision?  is that is what is happening?
[01:47] <troy_s> rlameiro: The _only_ issue I have with much of your thinking is that you are too damn smart.
[01:47] <ScottL> serious question^^^
[01:48] <troy_s> rlameiro: You are _not_ the audience in this discourse. You are an exemplary percentage of a percentage of a small percentage. Sense?
[01:48] <rlameiro> well, the true is that we cant pull out of the hat professioanl quality apps for everyone taste, but we can give  the best linux has
[01:48] <troy_s> ScottL: I'd stew on it.
[01:49] <troy_s> rlameiro: And deliver it in the context of a given audience. So full circle, if you go back to the start and actually think about the website based on say - two potential audiences here - I bet the results are TOTALLY different than where you started.
[01:49] <persia> rlameiro: If software exists, and we can package it, getting it in the repos is trivial.  Don't let that be a factor.
[01:49] <ScottL> troy_s, i was commenting more on the mechanics of the discussion, i need to meditate on it certainly, walk around a bit by myself and gesticulate with my hands
[01:50] <rlameiro> yeap, i get you troy_s, bu i also am a teacher, and i understand some of the quirks, and for that, i made that proposal, 80 % of the issiues with US concern at the configuration problem, not to the bad quality of the software that exist on linux
[01:50] <troy_s> rlameiro: If there is a singular point that Ubuntu Studio can leverage, it isn't in the software (any old Ubuntu works) and it isn't in a custom CD with preinstalls (again, any old package list pumped into synaptic works.) 
[01:52] <troy_s> rlameiro / ScottL - So figuring out exactly what _value_ Ubuntu Studio can bring to the table (and obviously that is moored in _for whom_) is about the most tricky question that faces the survival of the project.
[01:52] <persia> troy_s: That statement assumes that we only care about the flavour.  That any old Ubuntu works is in large part because of the work to ensure that Ubuntu Studio works with that software set.
[01:52] <troy_s> Not easy questions. Not a chance. But I dare say the sort of meandering death that has befallen it has little to do with leadership or such. Rather _vision_.
[01:52] <rlameiro> persia: the idea is to have the cutting edge easily available via other ways, that the ubuntu repos, there are  people packaging amazing stuff on launchpad, that could be easyly added to the aptlist and people use it
[01:53] <troy_s> persia: I agree, there are very real dividends that Ubuntu Studio does that people outside of it don't care about but may... for example getting updated multi-media packages done, getting jack up to date, etc.
[01:53] <persia> Or having a realtime kernel
[01:54] <troy_s> persia: But in terms of a 'project vision', supplementing Ubuntu proper seems... maybe a position of weakness?
[01:54] <troy_s> persia: Agree 100%
[01:54] <persia> rlameiro: I've a philosophical objection to their-party repositories.  I believe that they are inherently poor quality, because that they exist indicates either that someone isn't able to package well enough to have their stuff in the repos, or isn't able to communicate well enough to submit for peer review.
[01:55] <troy_s> It does seem the project has been sputtering for a long while.
[01:55] <rlameiro> persia: yeah, maybe, but true that ubuntu community and devs aret tha frindly as they where before
[01:56] <persia> troy_s: That's why I ask the question What do we do?: flavour is important.  Software quality is important.  Neither works without the other.  I think we hurt ourselves if we define any vision that doesn't have Ubuntu Studio as part of Ubuntu very clearly.
[01:56] <rlameiro> and the help and assitance to new people is strange
[01:56] <troy_s> persia: Not going to disagree with you at all.
[01:56] <troy_s> persia: I'll be blunt. I see a numbers game. I see the need for people and as a result, _greater_ participation.
[01:57] <persia> rlameiro: Who isn't as freindly as they were before?
[01:57] <rlameiro> persia: MOTU for example
[01:57] <troy_s> persia: That is NOT an easy issue though. You need _real_ musicians using the setup to comment etc. Full time deployments at a University maybe. Etc.
[01:57] <persia> rlameiro: Give me an example so that you aren't insulting me :)
[01:57] <rlameiro> they dont get thinks like ffado and jackd etc
[01:57] <persia> We got those in, I thought.
[01:57] <rlameiro> persia: it wasnt aimed to you
[01:58] <rlameiro> persia: yes you got it, but how much time it got, and effort?
[01:58] <troy_s> ScottL: I think you maybe see why everything puffs up in smoke. Since Cory was here, the inevitable questioning of the vision has come to the surface and many have bowed out.
[01:58] <persia> rlameiro: Yes, but I am in all the categories you speficy, so general application also applies to me.
[01:58] <rlameiro> i think we should also ask, is really ubuntu team interested in UbuntuStudio or not?
[01:58] <persia> rlameiro: ffado was broken for a long time: it got in as soon as it worked.
[01:59] <troy_s> ScottL: It is too many things to too many people based on assumptions, and the net sum result is... well... 10-15 people in a channel.
[01:59] <persia> rlameiro: And I am the primary individual responsible for keeping jack out of main for a very long time (since 7.04), until now.
[01:59] <rlameiro> persia: well, my historu was, i wanted to learn to package and then i followed some videos and tutorials, and i got stuck, so i went to motu channel, 
[01:59] <troy_s> rlameiro: Because their vision is questionable at times. If you value having talented musicians involved in Ubuntu, it SHOULD be important simply for the RT kernel.
[01:59] <ScottL> troy_s, lol at channel comment
[01:59] <rlameiro> first answer, look at the tutorial agan.....
[02:00] <rlameiro> I hame to old to ear that kind of stuff
[02:00] <persia> rlameiro: That's very unfortunate.  If you encounter that again, please let me know, and I'll go fix it.
[02:00] <rlameiro> so i quit trying to package
[02:00] <persia> I understand, and apologise.
[02:01] <rlameiro> and making python, at least i know where i can get help
[02:01] <troy_s> ScottL: Big tough questions. You have been following Krita have you?
[02:01] <ScottL> troy_s, i have not really, but i am aware of it
[02:01] <troy_s> ScottL: They _just_ recently went through this exact process.
[02:02] <troy_s> ScottL: Almost verbatim.
[02:02] <troy_s> ScottL: http://blog.cberger.net/2010/02/27/krita-meeting-2010-–-day-1-2/
[02:02] <troy_s> ScottL: They made a core design decision. MANY lambasted the decision.
[02:02] <troy_s> ScottL: But I think you can see how much progress has rolled along in a VERY short time.
[02:03] <rlameiro> so, maybe my core question is not what do we do, but does ubuntu want us?
[02:03] <troy_s> ScottL: Read Cyrille's blog.
[02:03] <persia> rlameiro: I think that's not a useful question.  We are inherently *part* of Ubuntu.  If we, as individuals, choose to do something else, that's not Ubuntu, and so not Ubuntu Studio.
[02:03] <ScottL> troy_s, i will, probably a few times to be honest as sometime sublettys are lost on me
[02:04] <troy_s> ScottL: There isn't much subtle there. Just read what they did. And then read the follow up post - namely this one:
[02:04] <troy_s> ScottL: http://blog.cberger.net/2010/03/02/the-difficult-choice-of-removing-features/
[02:04] <ScottL> can we agree that we need more community involvement?
[02:04] <troy_s> ScottL: The comments are telling.
[02:04] <troy_s> ScottL: I couldn't. :)
[02:04] <rlameiro> ScottL: yeah :D
[02:05] <troy_s> ScottL:  Because involvement means an implied 'get something done'. What?
[02:05] <ScottL> this might also mean remove functionality from Studio then
[02:05] <rlameiro> testing tsting testing
[02:05] <troy_s> rlameiro: Testing what? RT?
[02:05] <ScottL> if the community doesn't use something they are not going to test or comment about it
[02:05] <troy_s> rlameiro: Having those things defined helps to get them done for certain.
[02:05] <rlameiro> troy_s: yea
[02:06] <troy_s> rlameiro: Because I really don't even know what the heck uS does at times. I know it has some involvement with -RT, I know not how much. I know that some packages are a direct byproduct of uS, but I know not which ones. Etc.
[02:06] <ScottL> i think most of our users on the mailing list post about audio concerns
[02:07] <ScottL> the other items are generally kipple
[02:07] <persia> troy_s: I can answer that: US is a flavour of Ubuntu.  There is a (fairly substantive) set of packages in Ubuntu that are not used by any other flavour (including linux-rt), for which we, as a team, accept responsibility.
[02:07] <rlameiro> troy_s: well, US also gives pre made package of software, that a lot of people wouldnt know about it if it wasnt there :D
[02:07] <troy_s> ScottL: Ubuntu Studio doesn't (as a disk iso) bring anything to the table for visual work in my mind. Unless I am missing something.
[02:08] <troy_s> rlameiro: Do you really have evidence to support that? For example, I am well aware of maybe 80% of imaging stuff on Linux. Your audience is already Linux users and they tend to be pretty savvy.
[02:08] <troy_s> rlameiro: I question the validity of that statement.
[02:08] <ScottL> troy_s, are you saying that it doesn't offer substantive applications for graphics or video?
[02:08] <ScottL> if so i would agree
[02:08] <rlameiro> troy_s: the first time i got to ubuntu studio i found jack, ardour, puredat etc
[02:08] <troy_s> ScottL: As an actually project, it doesn't deliver need to me as someone interested in imaging etc. It has no value.
[02:09] <troy_s> rlameiro: Did you know what they were?
[02:09] <rlameiro> nope
[02:09] <troy_s> rlameiro: How did you find them?
[02:09] <rlameiro> i didnt even knew that there were software so good for audio :D
[02:10] <rlameiro> i found  a ubuntu studio package on the repos seraching for audio stuff, and i decided to install it
[02:10] <rlameiro> other one, musescore
[02:10] <troy_s> rlameiro: But you see, that's precisely the point I'd make. You know what a package is, heck you already had Ubuntu installed. Etc.
[02:10] <rlameiro> i think it goes to ubuntu 7.04
[02:10] <rlameiro> well, then we need to spread the word
[02:11] <rlameiro> at least if the project must die, at least dies for a reason, not for giving up on it
[02:11] <ScottL> it's not dieing, just evolving
[02:11] <rlameiro> if we keep thinking, we need to have this and that and that to people come
[02:12] <rlameiro> people come if they want, we just ned to spread the word
[02:12] <rlameiro> they arent paying a diem, so what do they lose?>
[02:12] <troy_s> ScottL: I mean heck... who is the project lead now?
[02:13] <troy_s> ScottL: I know Luke was, Luis was, Cory was, who _is_?
[02:13] <troy_s> rlameiro: Value is more than money.
[02:13] <troy_s> rlameiro: And people don't come. I think what... four or five years of EXTREMELY hard effort to make Ubuntu Studio what it is has shown that there are limitations to the Barnum quote.
[02:13] <troy_s> lol
[02:14] <troy_s> rlameiro: That said, creating _value_ for an audience with Ubuntu Studio might make it indespensible.
[02:14] <rlameiro> troy_s: well, can be true, but i will gratly preffer to have a 1 year release cycle tahn 6 months, but we need to, so we maybe need to focus on 2 releases insted of 4
[02:14] <troy_s> rlameiro: Even if I could spell indispensable.
[02:14] <ScottL> troy_s, at this point I have volunteered as "acting project lead" given that no one else has expressed desire to lead
[02:14] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think that gets back to persia's issue with falling out of sync with Ubuntu proper. 
[02:14] <detrate> providing applications is only half the battle, you need to explain how to use the product you're distributing
[02:14] <ScottL> studio is too important to me to see it abandonded
[02:15] <detrate> not having a live version I believe is a huge oversight as well
[02:15] <troy_s> ScottL: Then the project's fate rests in your hands.
[02:15] <rlameiro> ScottL: +1
[02:15] <troy_s> detrate: Might agree with you on that front, but I'm certain that the decision wasn't made lightly.
[02:15] <ScottL> troy_s, better mine than no one's, that's my reasoning
[02:15] <troy_s> detrate: There has always been a relatively good set of reasons behind the project's choices... much of it is effort obviously.
[02:16] <detrate> troy_s: I don't see why a light version of each version wouldn't be possible
[02:16] <rlameiro> troy_s: what was the reason to dont have a live version?
[02:16] <detrate> assuming you make meta packages for "art", "music" "video" or whatever the separations are
[02:16] <troy_s> ScottL: Yep. As long as you make decisions that are based on growth. Makes me think we don't document our conditions for failure in projects and we certainly don't evaluate them enough / document them so that others that follow can at least reference and learn from them.
[02:17] <ScottL> i had actually thought about wiki pages about applications and decisions we had made and why
[02:17] <troy_s> rlameiro: I can't answer that. But I know there _was_ one. If you have any faith in the people here, I can also assure you there was a reason and likely a very valid one.
[02:17] <troy_s> rlameiro: I have seen _many_ brilliant and diligent people wander through here.
[02:18] <rlameiro> troy_s: i believe, but has the networkmanager decision, maybe now threr is no reason anymore
[02:18] <troy_s> rlameiro: I have faith that the reason there isn't one was tied to circumstance and vision. That may now be moot.
[02:18] <troy_s> rlameiro: Agree. Worth evaluating _against_ a set of design constraints. Who? Why? What?
[02:18] <rlameiro> yeah, it would be a live DVD not a CD
[02:18] <detrate> looks like they are separated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageList
[02:19] <troy_s> rlameiro / ScottL - You guys could likely do much to help this along simply by documenting what the thinking is on the wiki. Maybe involve the mailing list? Try to not fall into the 'everyone' trap etc.
[02:19] <rlameiro> would need testers for it
[02:19]  * ScottL is eating dinner with family
[02:20] <troy_s> There are still some old guard here that know much of the history and can answer questions - Luke (The.Muso) crim.sun, persia, etc.
[02:20] <rlameiro> troy_s: yeah, that is very helpfull, as you said there are in here very bright people
[02:21] <persia> No live version is because performance on live inherently sucks because of the way live systems work.  No network manager was because early versions used extra resources and didn't work well with static IPs (which we expected to be common for studio installs).
[02:21] <troy_s> rlameiro: Damn bright. Make no mistake, Ubuntu Studio has a few extremely well respected folks that lurk here.
[02:21] <rlameiro> troy_s: what do you do? graph?
[02:21] <troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... sorry?
[02:21] <rlameiro> troy_s: what is you area?
[02:22] <detrate> if you have a livecd running completely off RAM, would there still be an issue?
[02:22] <detrate> because copying it to RAM is possbile
[02:22] <rlameiro> detrate: it is not easy to address
[02:22] <troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... I work full time professionally in the motion picture industry. I do uh... visual creative work(?) when the right project shows its face. blah blah.
[02:22] <rlameiro> there are realtime capabilities that are lost with it
[02:22] <detrate> if it's all in RAM, how is this a problem?
[02:23] <troy_s> See... told you there was a pretty well reasoned reason. Lol.
[02:23] <rlameiro> at least audio could do that, but true is that puredyne at the moment make that and people doent complain about it
[02:23] <rlameiro> troy_s: but now, there 2 GB ram, that werent 4 years ago
[02:23] <rlameiro> dual cor etc
[02:23] <rlameiro> *core
[02:24] <troy_s> rlameiro: I'm not disagreeing. If there are people that are capable of giving concrete estimations on it, they are here.
[02:24] <detrate> you can get a netbook with those specs
[02:24] <troy_s> rlameiro: There is one of the most prolific and standout audio reps here with _deep_ knowledge of it. There are packagers with massive knowledge and experience. And there are Canonical employees.
[02:24] <rlameiro> persia: 2gb would be enough for a minimal live system and having some ram for software?
[02:25] <persia> rlameiro: All-in-RAM means 1) not enough RAM for other things, and 2) there's still the poor filesystem performance inherent in stacked filesystems.
[02:25] <persia> You could make a livecd.  Some folks wouldn't complain.  Those folks would be uninformed.
[02:26] <rlameiro> persia: yea but even with full system i ge no more than 300 mb of ram used
[02:26] <troy_s> rlameiro: The point is, as we sort of started out here with detrate's entrance (which we can thank for this discussion) was that it isn't like there are people here that aren't capable. They are. There are people with a good degree of dedication too. And, on top of all that, are there evil spies that don't want the project to succeed tremendously? I don't think so. So why then, given ALL of the talent and wisdom, is the project c
[02:26] <persia> But, that aside, let's ask a different question: what benefit do we expect from a liveCD?  What would it gain us?
[02:26] <detrate> new users
[02:26] <detrate> "what is this? why should I install it?"
[02:27] <persia> troy_s: A big part of it is that many of us who have been around for a while are also doing other things, and don't have enough time, and some of those who used to be around aren't any longer.
[02:27] <detrate> also as a ubuntu user, I was under the impressive all ubuntu "flavors" were live cds as well
[02:27] <detrate> which may or may not be a valid point, depending on your audience
[02:27] <troy_s> persia: Yep. But the point I was trying to make is that for people that _do_ have the time, the answers and such are right here.
[02:27] <persia> detrate: OK, so if the experience differs massively between live and install, how does this help address the second question?  For the first, they would do as well to use an Ubuntu liveCD, aside from the theme.
[02:27] <persia> troy_s: Oh, surely.
[02:28] <detrate> Well, I'm not saying a live CD is the answer either.  I'm just identifying problems it cannot address.
[02:28] <rlameiro> persia: would it be aceptable to making a live version that EXPLICITLY  warns for underperformance, to use just for checking out purpose?
[02:28] <detrate> I think another solution could be to provide videos of the OS in action
[02:28] <troy_s> I think it is a great discussion. But it will float off into nothingness if someone doesn't wiki it.
[02:28] <detrate> because again the questions are: <detrate> "what is this? why should I install it?"
[02:29] <troy_s> detrate: I'd say many don't likely start there though. If you are looking to Ubuntu Studio, you likely have some idea what it will provide for you.
[02:29] <troy_s> detrate: Otherwise you go with Ubuntu proper. Follow me?
[02:29] <detrate> okay, I guess that's the mission statement then
[02:29] <persia> Making a liveCD is fairly trivial.  Getting it tested it a bit harder.  Justifying it is the hardest part.
[02:29] <rlameiro> troy_s: do you make themes?
[02:30] <troy_s> detrate: It isn't like (at least having studied god knows how much analytics data) that people randomly out in the ether and stumble across say, Ubuntu Studio and take it for a whirl on a spare box they have sitting around. 
[02:30] <troy_s> detrate: If they do, they are already likely savvy enough to know what an ISO is, know how to craft one, know how to partition a drive and know how to get it on there.
[02:30] <rlameiro> ok, persia is there some ubuntu tool to add a first run kind of tour?
[02:30] <troy_s> detrate: And that likely isn't an audio / visual artist. Lol.
[02:31] <troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... I do a bit of design work rubbish. So I guess the technical answer is yes, but I would likely answer no to the simple answer.
[02:32] <rlameiro> troy_s: lol, do you know who made the ubuntustudio theme?
[02:32] <detrate> well your homebrew club is all well and good but by having such an attitude, you're sending away the potential clientele of the future that would be gaining you like-minded individuals who will help this project grow.
[02:32] <troy_s> rlameiro: Yes.
[02:32] <troy_s> rlameiro: Or I did. 
[02:32] <rlameiro> ok, why so dark?
[02:32] <persia> rlameiro: I believe the only similar bit is ubiquity-slideshow-* : we could create a ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntustudio, but I think there's other things to do first (e.g. get a working live image)
[02:32] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think ScottL has been helming that for the recent term.
[02:32] <troy_s> rlameiro: That one I can answer
[02:33] <troy_s> rlameiro: When you speak of intermediate level artist / photography / audio, you are dealing with a specific set of circumstances.
[02:33] <troy_s> rlameiro: For example, my desktop is entirely 18% middle grey. Boring as hell.
[02:33] <rlameiro> persia: the idea was for the firs run, to have a place that link to tutorials, to software configuration, and basic stuff to get people going, something a little better than a pdf file on the desktop :P
[02:34] <troy_s> rlameiro: But it was agreed ages ago that the darkness met a few things - 1) It worked well as a starting point for visual work. 2) It paired well with industrial grade applications.
[02:34] <troy_s> rlameiro: Problem is again, it's a broad category. You want to survey say, four distinct realms quickly?
[02:34] <persia> rlameiro: I don't beleive anything like that exists.  The logical place for it would be as an extension to oem-config.
[02:34] <detrate> you can have cleaner dark themes
[02:34] <troy_s> rlameiro: Think about going through visual, motion picture, then audio, then... ?
[02:34] <troy_s> detrate: Cleaner is moot.
[02:34] <troy_s> detrate: It's aesthetics, and that gets murky quick.
[02:35] <troy_s> detrate: So either you make a decision that it is a design point (of emotional engagement) or you are strictly utilitarian in an industrial grade sense (hellooo 18% middle grey)
[02:35] <rlameiro> troy_s: i am not detracting dark themes, i love darkthemes, the problem is tat a lot of times get really dificult to read stuf selected...
[02:35] <detrate> maybe but there is much more to a theme than you think, in terms of accessibility
[02:36] <ScottL> an updated website with a newbie "course" or introduction would be great...big red button "Learn about Ubuntu Studio" or similar
[02:36] <troy_s> rlameiro: I'm just saying that there is a reason there. Or at least _was_ based on prior history. It was also pretty valid.
[02:36] <ScottL> troy_s,  I will go back and get many of this into the wiki
[02:36] <rlameiro> ubuntu default teame is more close to studio theme now :D but it easier to read, i am using it now
[02:36] <troy_s> detrate: Again, having actually looked and studied this sort of thing, that's all about audience.
[02:36] <troy_s> detrate: There is no such thing as usability until you define the audience.
[02:37] <detrate> who is your audience by your definition?
[02:37] <troy_s> detrate: And MANY design decisions are actually sitting on polemical opposite sides of the matter.
[02:37] <troy_s> detrate: For what?
[02:37] <detrate> this project
[02:37] <troy_s> detrate: My desktop? It's me.
[02:38] <detrate> ubuntu studio, the audience you keep defining
[02:38] <detrate> okay, so you're speaking about yourself and saying "audience"? I'm confused.
[02:38] <troy_s> detrate: I don't have one. I have watched it struggle a while now though. I can only say that I firmly believe the _source_ of the struggling (as is Ubuntu propers and every other distribution / software application) is the _inability_ to focus.
[02:38] <rlameiro> lol
[02:39] <detrate> okay, well I congratulate you for being able to rise above but there are people that want to do ubuntu as simply as the website says
[02:39] <troy_s> detrate: I'd say that given free reign of a silly magical poof wand wave, I'd make Ubuntu Studio give up on everything except audio
[02:39] <detrate> download > install > create
[02:39] <detrate> but cannot
[02:39] <detrate> download > install > learn a lot about linux > join the mailing list > patch > read tutorial > cry >create
[02:39] <troy_s> detrate: And I'd make it entirely about a perfectly turnkey Jack setup everything type of scenario for an independent band to record an album end to end.
[02:39] <troy_s> detrate: With a secondary class of audience that would be university audio lab deployments.
[02:40] <troy_s> detrate: From my totally subjective vantage, between those two audiences, I can see a clear area for Ubuntu Studio to deliver some serious value and meet an audience need.
[02:40] <detrate> you sound like a very focused individual and that's good but don't let that focus be blinders to other worlds that can share, create and grow together
[02:40] <rlameiro> troy_s: ok, so here whe go, rebranding times
[02:40] <troy_s> detrate: It doesn't work.
[02:40] <rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Audio 
[02:40] <rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Video
[02:40] <troy_s> detrate: I've been a part of the culture for too damn long and _every_ time I see projects fail
[02:40] <troy_s> detrate: Or burst into bikeshed
[02:40] <rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Graph
[02:40] <troy_s> detrate: Or puff up in wasted energy
[02:41] <detrate> the project doesn't fail, PEOPLE fail the PROJECT
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: It _always_ stems from a lack of that audience.
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: Simply incorrect!
[02:41] <detrate> it stems from sour attitudes of "cannot do"
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: Sorry, but try using say, visual tools in a production pipelien.
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: The TOOLS FAIL
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: THEY FAIL
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: Because the developers / project have a lack of audience to deliver those needs.
[02:41] <troy_s> detrate: It ends up with half baked itus serving _no one_.
[02:42] <rlameiro> putting it this in other way
[02:42] <troy_s> detrate: Now before you ride me on that, I will say I know people that RELY on Linux to make _millions_ of dollars and they are _well_ aware of the woes. I know an academy award winning visual effects supervisor that knows it _Extremely_ well.
[02:42] <rlameiro> does ubuntustudio help people that want to make things with video and graphics?
[02:43] <rlameiro> troy_s: its a pity the libst they use are closed...
[02:43] <troy_s> detrate: And I will tell you, the essence - the very core of the problem - is precisely as I have outlines. Not my sort of 'yay look I'm smart solution' but rather an issue that has been clarified for me through long discussions.
[02:44] <detrate> i don't think the project needs to be perfect and in fact, I'd go as far to say they should expect imperfection as you cannot please everyone.  Perhaps the scope of the project needs to be expanded and refined to suit different needs of the different audiences you wish to attract... nay that are attracted to it.
[02:44] <troy_s> rlameiro: Some are some aren't. The visual effects pipeline relies on intercommunication so by no fluke, many of the standards we live by were created out of that need in the visual work field.
[02:44] <troy_s> detrate: You _can_ please a particular audience. That's my point. You can engage them. You can emotionally move them. You can _greatly_ fulfil a need.
[02:45] <rlameiro> ok audio and multimedia art
[02:45] <troy_s> detrate: The question is - do we? We as a culture are evolving past 'scratch one's own itch'
[02:45] <detrate> I think you've been in the community too long to remember what it's like for an outsider
[02:45] <troy_s> detrate: Because I can't help but ask you given the depth and breadth of talent and dare I say _genius_ around our culture, why do we constantly seem to miss the mark? The proof is in the pudding.
[02:46] <detrate> says the guy using a linux based operating system
[02:46] <troy_s> detrate: No... I am _totally_ aware of that new audience member. I am saying _embrace_ their current situation. They aren't us. They come from OSX or Windows, etc. They have a given set of expectations etc.
[02:46] <detrate> community is there
[02:46] <troy_s> detrate: We are .0001% of .0001%. We aren't there.
[02:46] <troy_s> detrate: And believe me, as someone that actually forces themselves to use the tools, they suck.
[02:46] <detrate> okay, so that's your equivelent to what we refer to as "1337 frag machines" in the gaming world
[02:46] <troy_s> detrate: To be silly and colloquial.
[02:47] <detrate> I know, I'm aware, I used the operating system and quick
[02:47] <detrate> :-P
[02:47] <detrate> quit*
[02:47] <detrate> I'm back on my version of ubuntu
[02:47] <troy_s> detrate: Which?
[02:47] <detrate> but I'm here in this channel to discuss what attracted me and what made me leave
[02:47] <rlameiro> was it slack?
[02:47] <troy_s> detrate: Ubuntu suffers the exact same issues. Wonder why the wallpapers are a mushy blur? That's why.
[02:47]  * detrate 's sysinfo for 'zentury': Ubuntu 9.10 (karmic) / Linux 2.6.31-20-generic  running GNOME 2.28.0, on a Intel(R)Core2QuadCPUQ6600@2.40GHz at 1600 MHz (4800 MrBougomips),  7953/8002MB RAM from 255 processes;  looking into 3840x1200 pixels powered by a GeForce GTX 275  with HD: 473/1280GB  filled. [ 4.21d up, 1 user,  load average: 0.09, 0.16 ]
[02:48] <detrate> troy_s: ubuntu has been more stable for me.
[02:48] <troy_s> detrate: I don't use Ubuntu Studio because it clearly isn't for me. I don't worry about that. I'm happy for it to be what it needs to be.
[02:48] <rlameiro> detrate: 8GB ram :D
[02:49] <detrate> rlameiro: needed if I want to have multiple VMs open or multiple versions of a game
[02:49] <rlameiro> detrate: he he :D
[02:49] <troy_s> detrate: But I have no clue what it is that it needs to be. Only thoughts and opinions after watching it for gosh knows how long (and idling in here for gosh knows how long)
[02:49] <rlameiro> well so the issue is wether we need to narrow the scope or not, at least on troy_s poit of view, isnt that?
[02:49] <detrate> Sorry if I'm out of line but for the audience I had thought Ubuntu Studio was trying to attract, I think ubuntu studio tries to include too much
[02:50] <persia> detrate: *which* bit is "more stable" with Ubuntu vs. Ubuntu Studio?  For 9.10, they use the *exact same* kernel and base software.
[02:50] <troy_s> rlameiro: I don't think there is the time / people currently to warrant anything but a reduction in scope. Perhaps that is skepticism on my part.
[02:50] <detrate> maybe focus on the best tools to include, offer the others available as meta packages.
[02:50] <troy_s> detrate: I'd actually agree with you. I'd also say that the audience is out of whack with reality.
[02:51] <detrate> persia: Ubuntu 9.10 vanilla was more stable, there were subtle bugs with applications, I'm not sure on what they were any longer
[02:51] <troy_s> detrate: And as a result, perhaps there is opportunity there. If your audience is Reindeer and no Reindeer are using it as such, what is the point?
[02:51] <detrate> maybe I have notes, I'm not sure
[02:51] <detrate> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make troy_s
[02:51] <persia> detrate: Since it's the same set of applications, and the same kernel, I'm really curious about that.  Please try to find your notes.
[02:52] <detrate> okay persia
[02:52] <troy_s> detrate: But I certainly wouldn't be so myopic as to choose and audience and _not_ try to involve them. We seem very willing to do that in our Libre circles.
[02:52] <persia> detrate: Thanks.
[02:52] <rlameiro> detrate: i run 9.10 and it doesn tgive problems
[02:52] <detrate> it doesn't happen to use a different version of compiz does it?
[02:52] <detrate> compiz is a huge part of my work flow
[02:52] <troy_s> detrate: I'm saying there isn't a hope in hell that you should be putting 'pro' in Ubuntu Studio's title. Period.
[02:52] <detrate> troy_s: I'm not trying to
[02:52] <troy_s> detrate: And that _that_ audience has always been fictional and never used it. 
[02:53] <troy_s> detrate: It has always lurked there. Might even be on the page.
[02:53] <troy_s> May be gone now.
[02:53] <detrate> Maybe I'm speaking more of people involved in linux / code
[02:54] <persia> detrate: It's the exact same software in the exact same repositories.  The only difference is the default set of stuff installed.
[02:54] <rlameiro> So, is it reasonable to send a request for a poll to vote on narrowing US??? to the mailing lists ?
[02:54] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think the project is in the hands of those that are passionate about it. That likely includes ScottL, yourself, and others that have shown the willingness to linger for extended periods of time.
[02:55] <rlameiro> troy_s: true, but the user have a word in it
[02:55] <troy_s> rlameiro: Erm.... audience?
[02:55] <rlameiro> you just made what you are against at
[02:55] <troy_s> rlameiro: If your goal is to simply fulfill the needs of the current, then perhaps votes work wonders.
[02:56] <troy_s> rlameiro: I disagree with voting purely and simply that it creates the illusion of data through randomnimity. Get a plan. Work it out with ScottL maybe and then either push it through or figure out how to better refine it.
[02:56] <rlameiro> i dont have a goal, i like to share, and sharin opinions is part of it
[02:57] <troy_s> rlameiro: Sure. But no clear goal will always come back to bite. Pretty sure that between the few passionate folks that there can be some sort of agreement.
[02:57] <rlameiro> troy_s: i dont like that, thats the way people what pushed away
[02:57] <troy_s> rlameiro: Is it?
[02:57] <troy_s> rlameiro: Seems to me that this project was strongest when Cory was pushing the massive rock uphill.
[02:57] <rlameiro> troy_s: yes
[02:57] <troy_s> rlameiro: And while I personally may have been of one mind or the other, the results speak for themselves.
[02:58] <troy_s> rlameiro: Without that unrelenting drive / passion, it does ... this.
[02:58] <troy_s> rlameiro: And again, certain fantastic ideas / concepts / suggestions might simply be not applicable to the project goals. That's a simple reality.
[02:59] <rlameiro> troy_s: the passion helps a lot, you have ideas, but you should present it, i didnt like the buttons change, but i had to accept it because MS is the owner of ubuntu, but this is not the case
[02:59] <rlameiro> we should ear what the user want
[03:00] <troy_s> rlameiro: I totally disagree. Bugger the current audience. Figure out who the audience is, and listen to _them_.
[03:00] <troy_s> rlameiro: We just cycle around in the same wading pool of the same people making the same mistakes otherwise.
[03:00] <rlameiro> and then, maybe we can make the right choice, i am not expert and, franqly, how could i chose what stays and what goes away? just because i dont like something, it doesn't mean it isnt usefull to others
[03:01] <rlameiro> what people wants is windows troy_s 
[03:01] <troy_s> rlameiro: That is a horrible approach to design, and yes, there are countless tomes on why it is failure.
[03:01] <troy_s> rlameiro: You focus on your audience.
[03:01] <troy_s> rlameiro: The rest solves itself.
[03:01] <rlameiro> thas is the true, and we cant give them that, and I dont want that also
[03:01] <rlameiro> so there you have
[03:02] <troy_s> rlameiro: The _audience_ that is deemed fitting. Not the current.
[03:02] <scott__> troy_s, yes, we have to separate the current audience from the one we want to strive towards
[03:02] <troy_s> rlameiro: Gosh... GIMP has plenty of current audience members, but they are so far displaced from where the project needs to go in terms of meeting a professional grade image editor that they _hold it back_.
[03:03] <scott__> troy_s, and yes, Cory did move mountains, and pushed some people away as well *shrug*
[03:03] <rlameiro> troy_s: you are comparing very diferent things
[03:03] <rlameiro> we dont make software, !!!!
[03:03] <troy_s> ScottL: Yep. There are many ways to achieve things. 
[03:03] <rlameiro> audience doesnt apply in the same maner
[03:03] <scott__> but to be honest, the project needed Cory to be the way he is or _it_simply_wouldn't_have_happened
[03:03] <troy_s> rlameiro: Ubuntu Studio _has_ been making software for quite a while. :)
[03:04] <troy_s> ScottL: Yep. I remember when he called me when he first sort of took over the stillborn project. Cory is the sole reason the project is even ... well the reason we have anything to discuss.
[03:04] <rlameiro> ok, programms sorry
[03:04] <troy_s> rlameiro: I am not saying uS can fix the various upstream issues. But in terms of delivering value - it stands a damn good chance if it can focus.
[03:05] <scott__> hopefully Ubuntu Studio can eventually have a strong enough foundation and community that such a strong willed person isn't necessary for the project to improve and grow
[03:05] <scott__> merely an administrator
[03:05] <persia> Well, let's also give some credit to Dana: we wouldn't even have anything without that initial start (but that's prehistory, and was irrelevant in 2007)
[03:05] <rlameiro> well, i think we already deliver very good audio stuff, now th other things i dont know
[03:05] <troy_s> scott__: It's up to you guys now.
[03:05] <scott__> persia, Dana?  I'm not aware of that person
[03:06] <troy_s> rlameiro: Just think about how. Is it working? How do you know? Part of design is the follow up with research.
[03:06] <troy_s> rlameiro: What isn't working for the university audio lab it fellow (making up the scenario, but hopefully you get the idea)
[03:06] <persia> scott__: The person who started "ubuntustudio" back in Breezy, and did a lot of the initial work (with me) to get everything working with a common version of the jack libraries, etc.  That was exclusively audio related.
[03:06] <troy_s> rlameiro: Krita, with the new vision, actually gets feedback from talented artists now.
[03:07] <troy_s> rlameiro: Like David Revoy etc.
[03:07] <scott__> persia, oh wow, that is _way_ back  i've read the mailing list pretty far back, but i don't think it goes that far back
[03:07] <troy_s> rlameiro: And they listen.
[03:07] <troy_s> persia: Yes... what was his name?
[03:07] <persia> scott__: That project ceased activity before the mailing lists.  Cory is largely responsible for the mailing lists.
[03:08] <scott__> if we are talking about minimizing scope, I think that should include the audio apps as well, clean out some cruft that no one uses
[03:08] <rlameiro> ok, but to someone tell something to us, we fist need to have that someone, and for that we need general awareness, a website
[03:08] <scott__> jackbeat has been broke for two cycles and no one has complained or filed a bug
[03:08] <persia> I want to say "Dana Olsen" but launchpad disagrees with me.
[03:08] <rlameiro> scott__: there could be different packages, maybe
[03:09] <troy_s> rlameiro: The website is clothing.
[03:09] <rlameiro> troy_s: maybe, but for audio users sells
[03:09] <rlameiro> that is going after an audience
[03:09] <scott__> but attractive clothing attracts a mate sometimes
[03:09] <rlameiro> they use macs because they are fashion, 
[03:09] <scott__> that and big packages
[03:09] <rlameiro> troy_s: dont be wrong, it is true
[03:09] <troy_s> Figure out who. Don't guess.
[03:10] <troy_s> scott__: Very big packages. Ubuntu Studio has them.
[03:10] <rlameiro> I dont guess, i know a lot of them
[03:10] <troy_s> rlameiro: I think you are actually on point.
[03:10] <troy_s> rlameiro: But we guess too much as a general rule. Caution doesn't hurt.
[03:10] <rlameiro> they use the same software, but want to have beatifull things, so they care for pretty things
[03:10] <detrate> I literally just purchased a windows 7 laptop and a numark controller because I thought setup would be painless compared to linux but this isn't turning out so true.
[03:11] <scott__> troy_s, lol, someone jumped on my double entendre
[03:11] <troy_s> rlameiro: Which is why I was fond of say, University audio labs - you might be able to get one and test like hell. Or an independent band to test and work with. Approach them.
[03:11] <rlameiro> they care on blogs to look, they have smartphones to read news and videos etc
[03:11] <rlameiro> so yes the look is inportant, what do you wanted me to make, to comission a worlwide census on US?
[03:11] <troy_s> detrate: When Free Software works, it tends to work _extremely_ well in some instances (depending on project of course) - hell look at Ubuntu printing. I knock much of what Ubuntu does design wise, but printing is... well exceptional.
[03:12] <troy_s> detrate: In terms of broad strokes to plug in and print. There are obvious issues with margins etc.
[03:12] <detrate> yes, I favor free software :)
[03:13] <persia> troy_s: We owe huge volumes of that to the OpenPrinting project, and the OpenPrinting people directly maintain the packages in Ubuntu.
[03:13] <troy_s> rlameiro: LOL. No. But even something that looks 'simple' like 'looks good' is totally utterly complex and complicated. Aesthetics are cultural, based on age demographics,e tc.
[03:14] <rlameiro> well, thas you job, not mine
[03:14] <rlameiro> i am a musician :D
[03:14] <rlameiro> you are the designer
[03:14] <troy_s> rlameiro: So it's just a mountain of complexity. I'd strive for as little complexity as possible. _Maybe_ pairing Ubuntu Studio down makes sense in that aspect. Not my choice nor my ability to properly evaluate it.
[03:15] <troy_s> rlameiro: I'd just defer to wiser folks. In this case, probably persia. Lol.
[03:15] <rlameiro> persia: is 64studio team making some money of it?
[03:17] <holstein> is 64studio doing anything?
[03:17] <ScottL> troy_s, i want you to know that you are an awesome resource :)
[03:17] <holstein> seems dead
[03:17] <ScottL> hi hostein
[03:17] <holstein> ScottL: hey
[03:18] <persia> rlameiro: I believe 64studio did make some money, yes.  I don't know if they are now.  The person who I interacted with the most at 64Studio now has a different job.
[03:18] <troy_s> ScottL: Erm, I'd hope that anything you have gleaned has little to do with me. Most of what I know others knew long before me.
[03:18] <ScottL> persia, it wasn't Daniel was it?
[03:18] <persia> I believe the majority of monies came from building custom installs for hardware manufacturers, although I may be mistaken.
[03:19] <persia> ScottL: Nope.
[03:19] <rlameiro> would it be possible to merge? (actually a outher space question:p)
[03:19] <persia> rlameiro: I'm not sure there's a point, really.
[03:19] <ScottL> I would almost say that the Ubuntu Studio project, at this point, violates the Linux creed...do one thing and do it well
[03:19] <persia> At one point, 64Studio had an Ubuntu edition available.
[03:20] <rlameiro> persia: just mind traveling :D
[03:20] <rlameiro> http://www.64studio.com/press_release_pdk
[03:20] <troy_s> rlameiro: As a masters in music, you should have university connections. If you can get lab space, that's a win. There's the start of a very useful audience.
[03:21] <rlameiro> i made a room of old 233mhz macs runing xubuntu :D
[03:21] <rlameiro> lol
[03:21] <rlameiro> i will push open source ebates there, dont worry :D
[03:21] <troy_s> rlameiro: There is a good chance that some of the diligent folks in here could see some sort of monetary reward via support contracts.
[03:21] <persia> But 99% of the 64Studio patches were merged by debian-multimedia (a few folks were in both) and were imported into Ubuntu, and used by Ubuntu Studio.  Conversely, lots of patches here were merged into debian-multimedia (although nobody seemed active in both teams), and were merged into 64Studio.
[03:21] <holstein> persia: 64studio 3.s beat is based on hardy
[03:22] <persia> holstein: Thanks for the specifics: I didn't remember precisely which.
[03:22] <holstein> 3.x beta*
[03:22] <holstein> its been beta longer than gmail was though ;)
[03:23] <ScottL> hopefully they have updated packages compared to hardy :/
[03:23] <rlameiro> holstein: do you still have 64studio?
[03:23] <holstein> nah
[03:23] <rlameiro> ok
[03:24] <holstein> i hang in #64studio though
[03:24] <rlameiro> and how is it?
[03:24] <holstein> dead
[03:24] <holstein> no topic
[03:24] <holstein> i mostly just grab folks for #opensourcemusicians
[03:24] <rlameiro> so is 64studio dead?
[03:25] <holstein> as far as i can tell it is
[03:25] <rlameiro> well, more responsability for us
[03:25] <rlameiro> now is just musix and ubntustudio
[03:25] <rlameiro> and puredyne
[03:25] <holstein> i found a page about a lucid based 4.x version
[03:25] <rlameiro> ahh, wait
[03:26] <holstein> puredyne is not installable
[03:26] <persia> 64Studio is still represented in a number of shipping products.
[03:26] <holstein> OR it is, but it doesnt like it
[03:26] <rlameiro> persia: yea, but as a user POV
[03:26] <persia> I always felt they were primarily targeting OEMs, personally, and suspect they are easily revived if someone offers them a good contract.
[03:27] <persia> rlameiro: I don't think the 64Studio products were ever specifically intended for end-users to personally install.  That it worked, and that folks helped each other was a bonus.
[03:27] <persia> I may be mistaken, of course
[03:27] <rlameiro> ah ok, I never used it
[03:27] <rlameiro> so well, for intalable one we have musix and US
[03:27] <holstein> persia: i offered to pay
[03:28] <holstein> when i had a GCC error
[03:28] <rlameiro> lol
[03:28] <rlameiro> GCC error?
[03:28] <detrate> damn, I can't even download driver updates for this software because it's telling me the serial number I'm reading directly off the package is incorrect
[03:28] <detrate> for this hardware* rather
[03:29] <holstein> GNU C compiler = GCC
[03:29] <rlameiro> holstein: yeah i know, 
[03:30] <holstein> OH
[03:30] <holstein> hmm
[03:30] <holstein> i forget what it was
[03:30] <rlameiro> but what errr, on the compiler or the package?
[03:30] <rlameiro> ah ok
[03:30] <holstein> package version i think
[03:30] <persia> Looking at musix, I expect there's scope for collaboration, but somewhat limited by language.
[03:30] <holstein> i had the same error with intrepid
[03:30] <holstein> not too long after that
[03:30] <rlameiro> persia: i speak portuguese and spanish
[03:31] <holstein> musix looks nice
[03:31] <holstein> and the AVlinux guy is not interested?
[03:31] <persia> rlameiro: Yes, but I think musix is primarily developed in spanish, and Ubuntu in english.  I'm unsure if all the musix devs would want to be Ubuntu devs for that reason.
[03:31] <holstein> i saw an email to him or something
[03:31] <rlameiro> well, we never know, maybe
[03:32] <persia> I do suspect that we probably want to share patches, but we'd be best citizens if we both did that by pushing them to debian-multimedia
[03:33] <rlameiro> well, they use debian
[03:34] <persia> Yes, as do we, which is why I suggest that collaboration model.
[03:35] <rlameiro> so what we can do? invite them to come here an talk about it?
[03:35] <rlameiro> to know how do they do things?
[03:37] <rlameiro> well, they have an IRC channel at #musix
[03:37] <holstein> i use to hang there
[03:37] <rlameiro> I will hang in there to try to get them talk
[03:37] <holstein> more than a few speak english
[03:37] <persia> Well, what do we seek to achieve by collaboration?
[03:38] <persia> I think we can share patches well.
[03:38] <rlameiro> I will take a knife and thereat them
[03:38] <persia> I'm unsure we have a shared vision.
[03:38] <rlameiro> lol
[03:38] <rlameiro> for what i saw, they have some configuration things on a controlpanel
[03:39] <rlameiro> maybe we can use some of the scripts theu have and vice versa
[03:39] <rlameiro> well, i need to go
[03:40] <rlameiro> its 3:40 am
[03:40] <rlameiro> I will suffer tomorrow....
[03:40] <rlameiro> cya all guys
[03:41] <holstein> rlameiro: laterz..
[03:49] <ScottL> well, it certainly has been an active evening in the IRC tonight (or day for some)
[03:50] <ScottL> tomorrow i'll start sifting through the logs and get things into the wiki
[03:55] <ScottL> persia, another argument to downsize the project scope is losing a tech lead
[03:56] <persia> I don't think that's a good argument.
[03:56] <persia> Without a tech lead, we can't do technical stuff well, and the project is essentially technical at core.
[03:57] <persia> That said, I'd accept downsizing the project because we have a less capable tech lead, but we need a tech lead.
[03:57] <persia> And although I know in advance I don't have time to do it, I'm very much up for advising someone.
[03:57] <ScottL> well, yes, you make my argument better than i did
[03:58] <detrate> I think you should offer meta packages for people that want to fiddle with such focused programs you decide to cut from the scope
[03:58] <ScottL> thinking back on the short time i have been involved, its easy to see where "app creep" happened and how we violated our "vision" if there ever really was one
[03:58] <ScottL> detrate, i don't think that meta packages will be a problem
[03:59] <detrate> cool :)
[03:59] <ScottL> persia, how do you feel about including some KDE apps?  the additional libraries involved, etc?
[04:00] <persia> ScottL: I don't think the cross-environment theming looks nice at all.
[04:00] <persia> We already ship a number of qt-based applications.
[04:01] <detrate> I can cross environment theme
[04:01] <detrate> trying to find a good screenshot for you
[04:02] <detrate> maybe not everyone's cup of tea for the color choice but I've got it across 2 versions of kde and gnome http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/1qkpjnofu0zm3yjwgp6.png
[04:03] <detrate> I also found my work in progress mockup for the website http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/1bukpfe901b6l04x9zin.png
[04:05] <ScottL> detrate, i know you didn't create it, but i have to say that i loathe that unfocused blob thing
[04:05] <detrate> in which screenshot?
[04:05] <detrate> the current ubuntu studio website?
[04:05] <ScottL> yeah, right side of the second picture
[04:06] <detrate> yeah
[04:06] <detrate> I propose a homepage much like I created for www.alientrap.org/nexuiz
[04:06] <detrate> clear mission statement, quick catch line, video
[04:06] <ScottL> i have seen one unfocused, blog thing that i did like, but it was very color specific like golden raindrops or something, think it was even on the ubuntu studio submitted artwork
[04:07] <holstein> detrate: nexuiz kicks ass
[04:07] <detrate> some more screenshots and information, perhaps a web 2.0 style footer with more links to resources
[04:07] <detrate> holstein, we have unfortunately split from alientrap aka lee vermeulen
[04:08] <detrate> it's a mixed bag of feelings but the new project is xonotic (www.xonotic.org)
[04:08] <ScottL> detrate, since widescreens are pretty prevailant is it tenable to leverage the left side of the screen for a flyout menu to save vertical real estate on the screen?
[04:08] <detrate> he is an example of what having a single person in charge, no matter who little they are around, can do to an open-source project
[04:09] <detrate> a side menu is possible
[04:09] <detrate> I'd have to remake that template
[04:09] <detrate> I don't believe I have the sources
[04:09] <ScottL> i'm not saying that is the answer or direction, just exploring ideas
[04:10] <persia> detrate: What's the big カ for?
[04:10] <detrate> oh, well in well written XHTML that's not really a big deal to change anyway
[04:10] <detrate> persia: kanji for strength
[04:10] <persia> Looks like katakana "ka" to me :)
[04:10] <detrate> similar
[04:11] <detrate> but it's li
[04:11] <persia> 方 is how I usually see "power"
[04:11] <ScottL> http://i40.tinypic.com/25zlfo0.jpg   this is the golden blob thing that I didn't loathe, heh
[04:11] <detrate> ahh
[04:11] <detrate> I don't really know why it was chosen, a lot about that game lacked direction but it was fun none-the-less
[04:12]  * persia suspects it's wrong for amusing and historical reasons
[04:12] <detrate> yeah original artist screwed up the spelling, vermeulen didn't care
[04:13]  * ScottL put his window button on the left last week, my universe has failed to implode
[04:13] <detrate> it was really just a failed experiment that lordhavoc convicned him to release under GPL
[04:15] <detrate> I came in as a player/fan, helped rebrand / market the game, then began contributing in various other ways as I enjoyed growing with the game and other contributors
[04:15] <ScottL> persia: i was thinking more about narrowing the scope:
[04:15] <persia> Focus is good.
[04:16] <TheMuso> In light of the jack discussion on the pkg-multimedia list, who here thinks we need a specification/session at UDS to discuss jack2 for maverick?
[04:16] <persia> Will we have enough attendees to make it worthwhile?
[04:16] <ScottL> that fact that you posed the question, TheMuso, suggests that we should
[04:16] <persia> I'd be happy to attend such a session.
[04:17] <TheMuso> persia: That is a good question.
[04:17] <TheMuso> I think that those of us who are at UDS and who care about it, discuss it when we have a chance. Its not something that concerns Ubuntu proper.
[04:17] <TheMuso> i.e we don't need a spec for it.
[04:19] <persia> That's my thought.  Otherwise it will just be the same collection of folks saying "Hrm, yeah, well, let's see what Debian does."
[04:19] <persia> And since we failed to catch free last time (when he was at UDS), I'm guessing we're even less likely to be successful this time.
[04:20] <TheMuso> heh right.
[04:20] <persia> I believe the results of the session would be: 1) migrate to jack2, 2) recompile everything just in case, 3) add some DBus glue to improve the case where both JACK and pulse are present.
[04:21] <TheMuso> yep
[04:21] <TheMuso> and 4) consider tying jack into rtkit.
[04:22] <persia> That is, unless Debian manages to prepare the virual solution that allows jack1/jack2/tschak to work in parallel.
[04:22] <ScottL> i thought we were moving to rtkit anyway
[04:22] <persia> And in that case, I think the answer for us is the same.
[04:22] <persia> (jack1 is hard-frozen, tschack looks nifty, but raw)
[04:24] <ScottL> persia, re: narrowing scope  - even beyond limiting to audio, we could even focus on, say, robust 64 bit machine as baseline, adjust optimal settings and set this as our baseline
[04:24] <ScottL> then we can document variances for the next few common use cases
[04:24] <ScottL> in lieu of trying to present something for everybody
[04:25] <persia> Are we out of 32-bit users?  32-bit support seems to have historically been a common request.
[04:25] <detrate> we can integrate the poll into the website, does ubuntu studio have a forum?
[04:25] <ScottL> aye detrate it does
[04:26] <detrate> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio -- I don't see it here
[04:27] <ScottL> persia, no, i don't think we are out of 32 bit users, but i would expect it to be so in the future
[04:27] <ScottL> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335   detrate
[04:29] <ScottL> persia, i am currently a 32 bit user, but the prices of new machines coupled with loss of -rt kernel might have some bearing on this
[04:31] <persia> There's a linux-rt in the archives.
[04:31] <persia> I don't think it's going away.
[04:31] <persia> abogani has an open applicaqtion to be able to upload it directly.
[04:33] <detrate> also gathering a list of recommended hardware would be nice if one doesn't already exist
[04:37] <ScottL> the linux-rt is the 2.6.31 kernel i believe and i thought the kernel team didn't want to support it, if abogani's application is accepted will that mean he will provide and maintain the i386 -rt kernel?
[04:37] <ScottL> "kernel team didn't want to support it"   it = i386 -rt kernel
[04:38] <persia> I presume so.  He does it in his PPA now.
[04:38] <persia> And he tries to support the in-archive kernel, but currently needs to have his uploads sponsored.
[04:38] <ScottL> well, that's good news, but besides me original point of picking a baseline and tailoring audio for that baseline
[04:39] <ScottL> detrate, a list of recommended _could_ be gathered, but it certainly wouldn't be an be-all-end-all list of supported hardware
[04:40] <detrate> yes but it would be helpful in attracting users
[04:40] <detrate> I still haven't gotten my controller working in windows yet >_<
[04:40] <ScottL> oh, i sincerely agree
[04:42] <ScottL> bleargh, i have nine performance reviews to complete at work before the end of this week and way too much production work to keep up with also :(
[04:42] <ScottL> i don't want to go to work tomorrow
[04:44] <TheMuso> lol
[04:44] <persia> ScottL: My advice is to not spend time on US tomorrow, just to clear up the mess.  As much as I admire the work you've been doing, you need to stay funded :)
[04:46] <scott__> i still need to do a wiki for abogani about the kernels and review and comment on rlamerio's controls redesign still, so it will probably take the rest of the week during breaks and lunch to review the logs and place it into wiki format
[04:46] <scott__> i won't be focusing too much on this mess during week, not actively really
[04:57] <ScottL___> persia, TheMuso - i have sent you an email with my paper attached
[04:57] <TheMuso> ScottL___: thanks
[04:58] <ScottL___> thank you TheMuso (and persia), i realize both of you are rather busy and i greatly appreciate your time to review it
[04:58] <persia> Will read.
[05:00] <ScottL___> please note that i didn't format or clean up the appendix at this time, i felt it was more important to get it to you as i've taken long enough already
[05:01]  * ScottL___ is putting son into his bed and doing the same
[10:40] <astraljava> Heh, interesting read, the backlog of last night I mean. Especially loved detrate calling Troy an asshole :D
[10:40] <astraljava> But I must agree with Troy, uS needs to focus.
[10:40] <astraljava> Audio only... sounds scary, but might be the thing.
[10:41] <astraljava> If uS cannot offer any value to the graphics or video side, then they must go.
[10:42] <astraljava> On the other hand, if uS is to let go the 'pro' audience, then does it matter if those areas are still represented?
[10:42] <astraljava> Looking forward to any other public debates on the matter.
[10:49] <persia> astraljava: The issue is that were struggling for good application suites for video/graphics.
[10:55] <astraljava> persia: I've understood as much. I'm just pondering whether they need to be offered at all, if there's no added value.
[10:56] <persia> Hrm?  Nobody is suggesting dropping stuff from the repositories.
[10:57] <persia> it's just whether the "pro" label is applied.
[10:58] <astraljava> persia: No I'm not suggesting dropping stuff from the repositories, just what are the defaults in a new uS install.
[10:58] <astraljava> persia: I understand completely that labeling anything 'pro' is difficult.
[11:00] <persia> So, it's all about labels.
[11:00] <persia> Seed maintenance is trivial, and comes down to the "if someone cares" model.  If someone cares, then we can have a seed and a task.
[11:01] <persia> It's meaninglessly easy to have that included on the DVD.
[11:01] <astraljava> persia: I think so.
[11:02] <astraljava> persia: Labels, and the groups of artists we want to market our product.
[11:04] <persia> Sure.  Audience.  If there exists a set of video/graphics artists who find ubuntustudio useful, and there is a common set of tools that meet their needs, then it can be supplied.
[11:04] <persia> The trick is identification of that set of folks and that common set of tools.
[11:04] <persia> And assuring that there is overlap between that group and the set of folks willing to do testing, etc.
[11:05] <astraljava> True.
[11:46] <jussi> Problem with uS atm is we have taken the shotgun approach.
[11:46] <jussi> spray wide and you might hit something...
[11:47] <jussi> as everyone is saying, we need to focus. 
[11:49] <persia> Just to be clear: lots of good things have been hit with that approach so far, but it takes a lot more effort to keep shooting blindly.
[11:59] <jussi> persia: true. but we have a very limited number of contributors. hence the focus thing. so either focus or recruit...
[12:03] <persia> I think "both" is the correct answer.
[12:04] <ScottL> it might be fortunate that this conversation is happening during the tail end of an LTS release, otherwise we might lose the momentum
[12:05] <abogani> What I could say from an external point of view (because I'm an industrial user and not an artist) is that Studio want do too much. And what it is worst  without strong guidelines. We should do less things but in a *very* better way. If someone is interested on my POV, obviously. :-)
[12:05] <abogani> I supsect than if Studio continue in this way to do thing sooner or later it died.
[12:05] <abogani> s/died/the project will die
[12:07]  * abogani think it meanwhile he listen "The Scientist"...
[12:40] <ScottL> abogani, it's funny that so many people had very similar feelings but no one really said anything :/
[12:41] <detrate> including inkscape, gimp and image magick would be my top 3 choices for install on the graphics side of things
[12:50] <abogani> ScottL: This is an other reason why we should don't let it go unnoticed
[12:52] <detrate> oh and blender, duh
[14:55]  * abogani is wondering what is the best video editor at the moment...
[15:04] <detrate-> maybe LIVES
[15:04] <detrate-> best is a relative term
[15:05] <detrate-> stability wise, I thought LIVES was the best
[15:05] <detrate-> interface wise, I thought kdenlive was the best... unfortunately, it's also one of the most likely to crash
[15:05] <abogani> detrate: Thanks!
[15:06] <detrate-> don't bother with jashaka
[15:06] <detrate-> afaik that project is dead
[15:07] <abogani> detrate-: jashaka don't was an sound editor ?
[15:08] <detrate-> sound? you were asking for video
[15:11] <abogani> detrate-: Sorry my mistake.
[15:11] <scott-work> openshot is also an up and coming video editor and is seeing metric tonnes of development
[15:55] <scott-work> i think jokosher is the sound editor/recorder
[15:55] <scott-work> and jashaker is the video editor
[15:58] <abogani> Ahhhh Your are right. :-) ~ listening beautiful Gabriel's Oboe
[16:01] <detrate-> ahh
[16:01] <detrate-> well jashaker is dead I believe
[21:38] <rlameiro> hello thee
[21:38] <rlameiro> *there
[21:38] <rlameiro> I have already installed AMD64 RC
[21:39] <rlameiro> but i cant install network manager from the cd....
[21:39] <holstein> rlameiro: is wicd on the CD ?
[21:40] <rlameiro> the problem is that it doesnt let you
[21:40] <holstein> OH
[21:40] <holstein> its on there
[21:40] <holstein> i see
[21:40] <rlameiro> i commented all the internet repos, and only left the cd line, and made an apt-get update
[21:40] <rlameiro> when i try to instaqll it doednt let me
[21:41] <rlameiro> also, when i insert the cd it should prompt to me to add it as a source
[21:42] <rlameiro> but it didnt, however i have already a duplicate cd entry on the gui that adds the sources, so i dont get it...
[21:42] <rlameiro> everything elese worked fine as it should on the install
[23:05] <detrate> holler