[01:25] <rlameiro> hey
[02:00] <ScottL> hi rlameiro 
[02:00]  * ScottL is going for a walk with the family
[02:32] <detrate> anything more stable than mixxx available?
[02:33] <holstein> is that the DJ thing?
[02:34] <holstein> ive used internet DJ console
[02:34] <holstein> its old, but it seemed stable
[02:34] <holstein> and it streams to icecast
[02:35] <holstein> MIXX is cross-platform though
[02:35] <holstein> thats kinda nice
[02:36] <holstein> when trying to migrate folks
[02:37] <detrate> yeah, my only problem is I can't see only of the track wavs and it seems to crash on me after ~10 minutes
[02:47] <TheMuso> Mixxx's problem with stability is that it uses PortAudio for cross-platform audio access.
[03:11] <detrate> ahh I see
[03:12] <detrate> I just tried developing a midi mapping for my controller but it seems buggy
[03:12] <detrate> the one that is with it from version 1.6.2 has it's faults but it actually seems more stable than the one I created with the wizard
[03:27] <rlameiro> TheMuso, i am talking at one of the musix devs
[03:28] <rlameiro> he is interested in collaboration
[03:28] <TheMuso> rlameiro: ah ok
[03:28] <rlameiro> TheMuso, what do you think we can start with?
[03:28] <TheMuso> rlameiro: I don't know.
[03:30] <rlameiro> ok
[04:59] <persia> holstein: terminatorx is another tool to do that, although differently featured than mixxx.
[05:00] <holstein> mixxx seems to have a following too
[05:01] <holstein> or some mojo somehow
[17:54] <scott-work> if anyone wants to test the RC ISO for amd64 that would be really great     :)    I'll send an email to the -users list as well
[19:00] <scott-work> detrate:  can a wordpress home page/front page (whatever the proper nomenclature is) have a music player ala myspace?
[19:02] <detrate-> certainly
[19:02] <detrate-> I've created this wordpress blog for my friend www.mazzik.net
[19:03] <detrate-> it uses 2 types of players
[19:03] <detrate-> but there are more
[19:03] <detrate-> there the single mp3 inline style
[19:03] <detrate-> and in the footer one that aggregates from all uploaded music files
[19:15] <scott-work> can it have one that automatically starts playing with a button for skipping to the next song?
[19:15] <scott-work> http://members.cox.net/travel.site/web-tracker/jukesharess.gif
[19:15] <scott-work> ignore the stupid rap guy on the image, first one to come up on google image search
[19:15] <detrate-> sure you can get it work with any flash player
[19:16] <scott-work> detrate, the goal would be to feature user created/submitted work...how cool would it be to have your song on a website that people around the world frequent routinely?  I think pretty damn cool myself ;)
[19:17] <detrate-> yeah, that's cool
[19:17] <scott-work> after i'm through listening to The Misfits i'll listen you your friend's music
[19:17] <detrate-> :-P -- most of that is just him practicing doing live mixes
[19:18] <detrate-> I just installed a plugin for firefox that puts my tabs in a treeview on the side
[19:18] <detrate-> seeing if I like it any better
[19:19] <detrate-> been doing that in my text editor and so far it's been helpful
[19:19] <detrate-> takes a second to get used to it
[19:19] <detrate-> but this has nested collapsable trees, which is pretty kickass
[19:19] <scott-work> lol, yeah, i can see how it take a little bit to get used to (at least i think i can visual it)
[19:20] <detrate-> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890
[19:21] <detrate-> so for the user submission, I'd recommend using contact form 7 http://ideasilo.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/file-uploading-and-attachment-with-contact-form-7/
[19:22] <detrate-> here, this is actually a better reference http://contactform7.com/2009/11/24/file-uploading-and-attachment/
[19:24] <detrate-> though, creating your own plugin isn't that hard either
[19:44] <scott-work> detrate-: i bet you felt slightly confused the other night, sorry about that
[20:05] <detrate-> I know people can get protective of their open-source communities
[20:05] <detrate-> I'm just trying to contribute in areas that involve my expertise
[20:12] <scott-work> and i want to tell you that your contribution is greatly appreciated, sincerely
[20:13] <scott-work> it is uncommon lately for cory to be on IRC and troy has his pet peeves about open source communities so the resulting discussion explosive was like a recessive gene ;)
[20:15] <scott-work> that said, i think finally and definitively identifiying Ubuntu Studio's goals, audience, and mission statement will help the project tremenduously, that is at least my opinion
[20:15] <scott-work> so troy should probably be thanked for his part, although it was pretty damn funny when you called him an ass :D
[20:17] <detrate-> Well, I understand where he's coming from but I don't think it's appropriate he blaze the big guns when I'm just trying to offer help.  I don't claim to know everything about this project but I do have experience in promoting projects and social marketing.
[20:19] <persia> detrate-: Really, the issue is more that we're still working out kinks in our own answers to basic questions: it's very much not about the help you're offering.
[20:19] <detrate-> and I do feel like ubuntu studio is something I'd be interested in using on a daily basis if it was more refined in areas more attractive to people with backgrounds like myself.
[20:20] <detrate-> but as it stands, it's like installing ubuntu with extra packages and missing content (themes)
[20:20] <detrate-> and many of the packages do me no good... but I do touch in all areas ubuntu studio has to offer, some more than others.
[20:23] <detrate-> I do consider myself a power user in linux and prefer console over gui for many applications. Heck, I'm chatting in weechat now and I use mocp as my music player :)
[20:25] <detrate-> but even identifying with this class of users, I feel like uS isn't giving me very many benefits by squeezing so much in without explaination and ripping out other things I liked about ubuntu.
[20:25] <detrate-> making the community of users almost appear as elitist
[20:25] <persia> The trick is the balance of things.
[20:26] <persia> For instance, I argued strongly against compiz for a long time, because on many people's audio-tuned systems with limited onboard video (big graphics cards cause noise and EMF) it required significant CPU usage.
[20:27] <persia> This ends up being perceived as a feature-removal by some (and really anyone who doesn't fall into that use case).
[20:27] <persia> But it enables folks that need it.
[20:27] <detrate-> well, that sounds like a problem in transparency of decisions
[20:27] <persia> Indeed.
[20:28] <detrate-> which is something that effects the livecd situation as well
[20:28] <detrate-> I'd highly suggest making this known on the new homepage
[20:28] <detrate-> "no livecd (read why)" type thing
[20:28] <persia> The issue is that the folks who made the decisions don't necessarily have time to contribute just now.
[20:29] <detrate-> this is why I put a 'web team' in project requirements
[20:29] <persia> Given a list, I can probably explain some of them, as I've been involved in a lot of the debates, but I very much don't know of any list
[20:29] <scott-work> these are the types of topics I would really like to address with the community with a news section on the new website or by getting my memberhsip approved and pushing my blog to planet ubuntu
[20:29] <persia> Heh, yeah.
[20:29] <detrate-> a new website won't do you much good unless you have people interacting with it and social media
[20:29] <detrate-> well this list should be in the wiki for certain
[20:30] <scott-work> which list?
[20:30] <scott-work> these topics we just mentioned just now?
[20:30] <detrate-> of decisions that might seem to be negatives
[20:30] <detrate-> questionable decisions*
[20:30] <scott-work> we could make a FAQ on the wiki with them (that's acutally a good idea)
[20:30] <detrate-> yes, wikis are great
[20:30] <detrate-> when well managed
[20:31] <scott-work> ours hasn't been, although i did update the organization for ours on help.ubuntu.com but it still needs lots of love
[20:32] <detrate-> you should consider creating an organizational structure
[20:32] <detrate-> if one doesn't already exist
[20:32] <detrate-> it looks pretty loose from what I can tell
[20:32] <scott-work> entropic
[20:32] <detrate-> but having coordinators in each area will help ease communication lines and keep contributions / user input on track
[20:33] <scott-work> unfortunately we are in a chicken <-> egg situation, we don't have community help because we don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the infrastructure because we don't have community help
[20:33] <persia> Having coordination would do that well enough for now.  Having per-track coordination presupposes sufficient volume to need it.
[20:33] <scott-work> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Ubuntu%20Studio%20-%20Core%20Issues
[20:33] <scott-work> some of my thoughts on going forward
[20:34] <persia> I think we wouldn't do best to create a complex org chart, and then have mostly empty roles, or have them all filled by ScottL :)
[20:34] <detrate-> starting with outlining organization and workflows in the wiki will be quite benefical
[20:34] <persia> ScottL: Right, and I still have to reply to your email :)
[20:34] <detrate-> well, understanding your assets is very important
[20:34] <detrate-> when you see visually that scott is stretched across so much, you can begin filling spots
[20:34] <scott-work> no rush persia, just keeping you in the loop
[20:35] <persia> ScottL: A few missing requirements (imo): tone generator, drum machine, sequencer.  I think we can drop "midi (?)" for being too vague.
[20:35] <scott-work> detrate-: that's kinda funny because I think persia and luke do WAY more than i, at least they are capable of it when considering expertise, i've only been with the group for six months now
[20:36] <detrate-> well, you sound like the coordinator on the front lines
[20:36] <persia> And as much as I think it's not best, PiTiVi is probably the best choice for the video editor, because the desktop team also cares for it.
[20:36] <scott-work> persia: i left the midi there because i thought it was needed (user mail list has many midi users) but i don't use midi so i don't know which to suggest
[20:36] <scott-work> detrate-: i try
[20:37] <persia> ScottL: We have very good driver support already, and after that it's on a per-application basis, so not something separate.
[20:37] <scott-work> oh vey, how could i miss hydrogen :(
[20:37] <persia> ScottL: So, e.g. mixxx, terminatorx, ardour, sequencer, tone generator, drum machine, softare effects, etc. all use MIDI.
[20:38] <detrate-> http://www.tevine.com/projects/voteitup/ << you can crowd source these sort of decisions to an extent
[20:38] <persia> heh, yeah.  s/drum machine/hydrogen/ :)
[20:38] <detrate-> not sure if you want users having much say in packages though
[20:39] <detrate-> in nexuiz/xonotic we did a similar thing in our development system on features / patches / bugs
[20:39] <persia> There's three decent sequencers: seq24 (mostly live applications), muse, rosegarden
[20:39] <persia> And all sorts of tone generators.
[20:40] <persia> detrate-: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com is the Ubuntu-wide forum for such vote-count ideas.
[20:40] <detrate-> and ubuntu studio is under this wing?
[20:40] <detrate-> I'm not really clear on the project relationship
[20:40] <detrate-> which is another good thing to clarify on the about us page
[20:41] <persia> detrate-: Ubuntu Studio is one flavour of Ubuntu.  We're entirely part of the Ubuntu project, and share the same software.
[20:41] <detrate-> okay
[20:42] <persia> That said, we have control over which bits of software we install by default, we can patch or adjust software to meet our needs, we can add new software, and the rest of the Ubuntu project solicits our advice when dealing with software we maintain.
[20:42] <scott-work> and to add more of a twist, we can upload software from the Debian project
[20:43] <scott-work> which is uber-ly helpful
[20:43] <persia> Well, the entire Ubuntu project is based on Debian :)
[20:43] <persia> But yeah, we rely immensely on the work of the debian-multimedia team to keep things in shape.
[20:43] <detrate-> So is it true that you plan to cater towards artists as well or only serious tech people atm?
[20:45] <scott-work> not to be oblique, but can you quantify 'artists'?
[20:46] <detrate-> I mean it in a pretty general way but this is really just a segway to a question about themes and preinstalled packages
[20:46] <detrate-> because as a artistic linux user, I really like tweaking my color settings with gnome-color-chooser
[20:47] <persia> We can install an arbitrary number of themes, but we try to keep the size of the images down (because of download times), so tend to only install the few that are needed for the install.
[20:47] <persia> Users can trivially install more themes post-install.
[20:47] <detrate-> and I'd be happy to contribut gnomecc themes if they are being accepted
[20:47] <persia> Putting themes in the archive is easier, and can be done, but fitting them on the DVDs is tricky.
[20:48] <detrate-> well gnomecc files are pretty lightweight
[20:48] <detrate-> they are just meta files
[20:48] <detrate-> but obviously require gnome-color-chooser :-P
[20:48] <scott-work> why is that persia ?
[20:48] <detrate-> they are ~16kb
[20:48] <persia> ScottL: Because of download speeds and space on the image hosting server.
[20:49] <persia> ScottL: So anything that's on the DVD should have a good reason to be there, and meet a specific goal.
[20:49] <scott-work> sound advice
[20:50] <persia> I must be off for a while.  If there's a list of questions, I'll try to answer more when I next have some time.
[20:50] <scott-work> i'd say then that we have many things on the disc that don't really have a good reason since many applications probably aren't used by our users
[20:50] <detrate-> +1
[20:50] <persia> We should probably remove some of those :)
[20:50] <detrate-> http://gnomecc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
[20:50] <persia> If we somehow manage to get below 700MB, we win.
[20:51] <scott-work> persia: did you have any comment on the target audience? too narrow, not narrow enough, not defined enough?
[20:51] <detrate-> you also may want to consider custom default content, like a project for rosegarden as an example.
[20:51] <scott-work> persia: i don't know package sizes off the top of my head, do you think we could actually achieve 700mb?
[20:52] <scott-work> detrate-: i have that also on my list, at least one of several types, but that doesn't mean it will happen though :(   but again, that is a good way to encourage community participation
[20:52] <detrate-> 1.4-1.5gb
[20:52] <detrate-> scott-work: yes but see, letting these dreams die is the problem.
[20:52] <detrate-> document them in the wiki
[20:53] <detrate-> delegate the work
[20:53] <scott-work> they aren't dying, i have written a paper with them in their and i have asked a few people to review it before making it available publically
[20:53] <scott-work> s/their/there    -    arrrgghhh
[20:53] <detrate-> oh, well that's good then :D
[21:48] <persia> ScottL: The audience target seems reasonable to me: it's not terribly detailed, but we aren't a team building 10 archetypical users and ensuing that the entire experience works for all of them: we're just a team tossing together a reasonable bundle of software.
[21:49] <persia> achieving 700MB is *hard*.  I've taken a couple stabs at it before.
[21:50] <persia> It's easy if we cut heavily, but we have a strong expression from users that they want e.g. all the plugins, all the effects (this at one point included a whole heap of extra gimp filters), etc.
[21:50] <detrate-> I'm not even sure the target audience.  From cory's words, it sounds like you need to know how to program your midi controller to be considered a uS user
[21:50] <persia> Giving them all of them is too much, but we want to have a sufficient selection that they mostly don't need to go looking.
[21:50] <detrate-> persia: provide it as a meta package then?
[21:51] <persia> detrate-: Example content is interesting.
[21:51] <persia> detrate-: That's how the images are constructed: it's just a set of tasks (where the tasks roughly match some metapackages).
[21:51] <persia> The issue is that the image should contain it: else the user may as well just install the metapackage in Ubuntu.
[21:52] <detrate-> yes but can't you define your own >> ubuntustudio-audio-extras
[21:52] <persia> That's not a bad idea.  Have e.g. ubuntustudio-audio, ubuntustudio-audio-extras, ubuntustudio-audio-plugins, ubuntustudio-audio-plugins-extra.
[21:52] <detrate-> imho you should pick 1 or 2 of the best applications in a specific area of focus and provide the others in a different fashion... so you don't have 5 midi sequencers that are all similar for example
[21:52] <persia> Easy enough to do.
[21:53] <persia> For 9.10 we shipped 2 MIDI sequencers: one designed for composition, and one for live performances.
[21:53] <detrate-> and build a strong core with more stable/complete software but give more serious users the [quick] ability to customize to their needs
[21:54] <persia> The idea has always been to try to pick the one best application for each need, although the mixxx/terminatorx debate made that hard (lots of folks provided strong arguments that these were *different* tools)
[21:54] <detrate-> I felt like there were waaay too many applications when I tried 9.10
[21:54] <detrate-> I felt lost and uninformed
[21:55] <detrate-> I thought I'd have a suite of well organized tools at my fingertips but it turned out you need to be quite proficient to even understand what to do after opening half of them
[21:56] <detrate-> and I'm not saying this to knock your efforts, they are obviously appreciated, otherwise I wouldn't even be here
[21:56] <detrate-> but I'm trying to give you a better view from a first time user
[21:56] <detrate-> I wish I had my notes still but I kind of fell into a kde4.4 whirlwind after my uS experience
[21:56] <detrate-> and just ended up wiping a whole bunch of stuff
[21:57] <detrate-> namely because kwin doesn't support dual monitors in the way that I need.
[21:57] <persia> heh.
[21:57] <persia> One of the things that makes it hard is that we don't control the actual applications, just the choice of applications.
[21:57] <detrate-> yes, I understand that
[21:58] <detrate-> however, tutorials as I was saying yesterday could be invaluable to new users
[21:58] <detrate-> you can probably scoop up a bunch on youtube/vimeo
[21:59] <detrate-> this is where a team of liaisons or coordinators comes in handy
[22:00] <persia> Yeah, a good documentation effort would be helpful.
[22:00] <scott-work> detrate-: i've given some thought to what you have said about workflow and I agree with you that it is necessary
[22:00] <scott-work> especially for the osx/win incoming crowd as troy pointed out the other day
[22:01] <scott-work> and 64 studio had a decent start with this, i'll see if i can find it
[22:01] <detrate-> I have a similar resource you might find inspiring
[22:01] <detrate-> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from-mac-os-x-to-ubuntu-with-kim-cascone/
[22:02] <scott-work> http://www.64studio.com/manual   it sort of steps through several apps in a somewhat logical way
[22:02] <scott-work> i thin ki've read that article, i even linked it in our documenation on help.ubuntu.com
[22:02] <detrate-> ah, nice
[22:02] <scott-work> 'tis a good article, with a different perspective
[22:02] <detrate-> well I have to head out to an award ceremony.  I will catch you later if I'm not too drunk :-P
[22:03] <scott-work> win awards!
[22:03] <detrate-> ^_^ we could
[22:03] <scott-work> that's a quote from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
[22:03] <detrate-> just won an award for one of the web tools we created actually :)
[22:03] <detrate-> though not the one I expected admittedly
[22:03] <scott-work> wow, cool deal :)
[22:03] <scott-work> lol
[22:04] <detrate-> www.actoutforhealth.org
[22:04] <detrate-> I thought www.yourwateryourdecision.org would beat it
[22:04] <detrate-> but I'll catch you later
[22:04] <detrate-> pz
[22:04] <scott-work> good luck, don't drink and dive
[22:04] <scott-work> err drive
[22:05] <scott-work> persia, do you feel like we are on the cusp of some creative and positive changes?  a real shift in paradigms?
[22:05] <scott-work> i do, i hope it's not false
[22:06] <persia> I always feel that way :)
[22:07] <scott-work> hehe, well played
[22:09] <scott-work> i really like the format of the 64studio manual, the organization of information would really help new users and those unfamiliar with linux in general
[22:11] <persia> May as well check with them to see if we can derive and produce a manual.
[22:11] <persia> But I'd make sure there was someone with time to do the documentation first.
[22:45] <scott-work> detrate-: i'm using that tab tree pluging for firefox, very interesting, you can open up a significant amount of realestate with it
[22:46] <scott-work> detrate-: i also use igoogle header remover (and greasemonkey) for my home page    http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/24339
[22:46] <scott-work> gets rid of that huge arse google banner and brings much of your screen back up where it is visible (especially on laptops)
[22:47] <detrate> hehe, I run a custom google stylesheet already with stylish
[22:47] <detrate> btw, had to stop home for a second
[22:47] <detrate> but yeah, tabs on the side are pretty sweet
[22:47] <detrate> no plugin fully does what I hope yet but that's okay
[22:48] <detrate> I wish there was better grouping and saving of sessions with the groups
[22:48] <detrate> imagine that tree tab list with a "file select" type box, where you can drag to select many tabs in a box or hold ctrl to select individuals as a group
[22:48] <detrate> then say, f these for now I'm done, put them here
[22:49] <scott-work> i thought you were out winning awards and getting drunk
[22:49] <scott-work> oh, read second sentence, nevermind
[22:51] <detrate> yes but first I need to pick up my car
[22:52] <detrate> I have a strict no drinks and driving my motorcycle rule
[22:52] <scott-work> winner!
[22:52] <detrate> no good can come from that
[22:52] <detrate> but I can have 2-3 drinks and drive my car
[22:52] <scott-work> i knew  a guy that put nitrious on his motercycle
[22:52] <detrate> ha
[22:53] <detrate> I have more of an adventure tourer than a sport bike
[22:53] <detrate> I use a wide-view hack for google results too btw
[22:55] <detrate> http://userstyles.org/styles/20361
[22:55] <detrate> this is more or less what my google looks like <a href="http://imgur.com/NEFpx.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com">http://imgur.com/NEFpx.png</a>
[22:55] <detrate> sorry I'm a noob and pasted the html link
[22:57]  * scott-work is going home :)