[00:18] <ckontros> Hey guys.
[00:19] <ckontros> ScottL. Gimmie 'till the weekend to digest your email. Things are a but nuts 'till then. I'll be able to better respond on Saturday.
[00:24] <ckontros> Ok. Peace guys. (note that Im often connected but not in-channel if someone needs me)
[00:25] <persia> And we try not to pester you, if we can avoid it.  We know you don't really have time.
[00:35] <rlameiro> persia: only one test to go on the iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[00:36] <rlameiro> :DD
[00:37] <persia> Cool!
[00:37] <persia> entire-disk-with-encryption.
[00:37] <rlameiro> yeap
[00:37] <persia> You doing that next, or do you need a hand?
[00:37] <rlameiro> i never did a entire disk with encryption
[00:37] <rlameiro> it shouldn't be hard
[00:37] <rlameiro> but i dont want to mess with my other os
[00:38] <rlameiro> at the mometn i have 2 ubuntus installed
[00:38] <persia> DO you need both of them?
[00:38] <persia> Oh, entire disk.
[00:38] <persia> Right.
[00:38] <rlameiro> yeap
[00:38] <rlameiro> i am on a laptop
[00:38] <persia> I can do an install to a VM, but not a real install, with the hardware I have avaiable.
[00:38] <rlameiro> if i had a desktop i would do it
[00:39] <rlameiro> just putting an old 40 gb harddrive
[00:39] <persia> (well, I suppose I could do a real install, but I'd fail it, because of an installer bug related to that specific hardware, and that's not useful)
[00:39] <rlameiro> its 64bit
[00:39] <persia> OK.  I'll start up a VM.
[00:39] <rlameiro> vm with 64 bit are
[00:40] <rlameiro> difficult to fins :D
[00:40] <rlameiro> well, at leas virtualbox doesnt support it
[00:42] <ScottL> later tonight i should get the last i386 test tonight :)
[00:42] <ScottL> oh and thatnks rlameiro for the testing you did 
[00:42] <rlameiro> ScottL: they are all made :D
[00:42] <rlameiro> ava made it
[00:43] <rlameiro> its only missing a AMD64 entire disk with encryption
[00:44] <rlameiro> ScottL: I am going to sleep now
[00:44] <rlameiro> we need to talk later
[00:44] <rlameiro> cya guys 
[00:46] <persia> The trick to 64-bit VMs is to have a 64-bit server around with libvirt installed.
[00:46] <persia> The hassle is getting this to actually work properly
[00:49] <ScottL> hmmm, i wonder what rlamerio wanted to talk about?
[00:51] <persia> OK Test running.
[01:00] <ScottL> good, i'm working on the last i386 now
[01:01]  * persia fails to understand why it's slow going from a virtual iso to a virtual disk on a machine that isn't really doing much else
[01:07] <persia> Oh!  I know why it's slow.  I'm encrypting everything.  Silly me.
[01:16] <ScottL> lol
[01:31] <ScottL> that should be the last test also
[01:31] <ScottL> i meant the one you are performing persia
[01:33] <persia> Yeah, just taking a while.
[01:46] <persia> So, there's a discussion in -motu about whether the images should be respun.
[01:46] <persia> I think they shouldn't, because I think we won't manage to test them again if they are.
[01:47] <persia> But if someone wants to make an official statement to that effect, it wouldn't hurt.
[01:52] <ScottL> statement made in -motu, not sure how it would be official
[01:52] <persia> Same as anything else.  consensus.
[01:53] <ScottL> do i need to address myself as project lead or acting lead or something?
[01:53] <persia> I think that needs to get sorted out internally first.
[01:53] <persia> I'm known to be associated with ubuntustudio.  My statement that you might be the right person is probably as much as we need.
[01:54] <persia> I don't remember if there was an official release delegation this cycle (I think not, remembering the meeting).
[01:54] <persia> So we might not even *have* an appripriate person to make that decision, which would make it fall to TheMuso.
[01:54] <persia> And he's already swamped with enough other stuff, that he's not likely to have time to check the corner cases.
[01:55] <TheMuso> persia: I agree they shouldn't.
[02:02] <ScottL> persia, i put forth my suggestion because you mentioned "official" here and referenced me in -motu
[02:03] <persia> ScottL: You appear to be taking on the mantle of project lead.  Apologies if I presume too far.
[02:04] <ScottL> no, no, i've stated in this channel that i had volunteered for the position in lieu of anyone else, no apologies need my friend :)
[02:06] <ScottL> i meant that it sounded like it would be helpful in -motu to wield a title to fortify our argument
[02:09] <persia> In my experience if the choice is between "do a lot of work in a hurry" and "wait a couple days to complete a task that can be prepared in advance safely", people will always choose the latter unless prompted otherwise.
[02:09] <persia> So if we *did* want a respin, there would likely be a need for strong statements.  Several folk saying "just wait" tends to be enough to build consensus without the need for more formal measures.
[02:18] <detrate> virtualbox supports 64bit
[02:18] <detrate> unless your host is 32bit
[02:18] <detrate> unless you're talking about something specific?
[02:23] <detrate> I wish ubuntu wiki would give an extra tab if you're browsing in a 'flavor' of the operating system
[02:23] <persia> We can do different CSS if we like.
[02:23] <persia> e.g. wiki.kubuntu.org
[02:23] <detrate> or go another level down in the URL
[02:23] <persia> Needs making the CSS, etc.
[02:24] <detrate> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Art/Incoming
[02:24] <detrate> or such
[02:24] <detrate> I can do CSS for ya
[02:24] <detrate> what about markup?
[02:24] <persia> Dunno precisely.  Compare wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com
[02:24] <persia> See what's different.
[02:24] <detrate> okay
[02:25] <persia> That's the bits we can change.
[02:25] <detrate> all run from the same CMS?
[02:25] <persia> Yep.  Same backend.
[02:25] <detrate> okey dokey
[02:25] <persia> Note that it will take months to get IS to actually implement it, based on past experience, but it's available if we want it.
[02:26] <detrate> okay
[02:27] <detrate> well I'm confused how ubuntu.com has the wiki but kubuntu.org doesn't
[02:27] <detrate> can you edit template files at all or only CSS?
[02:28] <persia> What?
[02:28] <detrate> For the wiki, as an admin or whatever user role they gave you.  Do you have access to editing some sort of template file or only CSS?
[02:28] <detrate> by template I mean a markup language
[02:29] <detrate> such as HTML, Smarty or something similar
[02:29] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
[02:29] <persia> Oh, users can edit content.  moin syntax.
[02:29] <persia> But we can do per-flavour CSS.
[02:30] <detrate> on ubuntu.com, there is a "ubuntu" "community" "support" "partners" "planet"
[02:30] <detrate> but this is not on kubuntu
[02:31] <persia> Oh, I dunno.
[02:31] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbo works
[02:31] <persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
[02:32] <detrate> also, can you get the domain wiki.ubuntustudio.org ?
[02:32] <persia> Oh, you're looking at www.
[02:32] <persia> I'm only talking about wiki.
[02:32] <detrate> hmm?
[02:32] <detrate> no, I was too
[02:33] <detrate> there is a menu in the header on wiki.ubuntu.com that is not there on wiki.kubuntu.org
[02:33] <persia> I don't see any reason wiki.ubuntustudio.org couldn't point there.
[02:33] <detrate> I think that would help with clarity
[02:33] <detrate> just my opinion, you can get a vote on it but I suggest both that name and a theme
[02:34] <detrate> I'd be happy to help theme it / write the css
[02:34] <persia> Oh, I see what you mean.
[02:34] <ScottL> detrate, i just added you to me list of people who rock ;)
[02:34] <persia> Yeah, if that differs for those two, it could differ for us.
[02:35] <detrate> okay, that can be helpful as well
[02:35] <detrate> thanks ScottL :-P
[02:37] <detrate> here is a view through my current world if you're interested ^_^ http://imgur.com/sYgeS.png
[02:37] <detrate> my IRC client is konversation by the way
[02:38] <detrate> so that's a qt4 version of the same gnome theme that makes up the rest of that screenshot
[03:06] <ScottL> detrate, how did the awards go?
[03:07] <detrate> it was pretty cool, cash bar though :-P
[03:07] <detrate> good meal, good speakers and entertainment
[04:28] <detrate> How about themes for Ubuntu Studio releases
[04:29] <detrate> have these been discussed before? and by themes, I mean as ubuntu has with animals.
[04:30] <detrate> perhaps do a stylish animal that reflects the operating system, or create your own naming pattern following ubuntu's naming scheme
[08:43] <rlameiro> goodmorning
[08:44] <rlameiro> persia: thanks for the test report :D
[08:46] <astraljava> Hey rlameiro 
[08:47] <rlameiro> astraljava: hey
[12:01] <ScottL> detrate, that is an interesting idea about the themes
[12:02] <ScottL> historically i don't think we have had consistent manpower to achieve something so organized and....well, thematic :P
[12:04] <ScottL> do have some suggestions or specific ideas towards this?
[12:10] <jussi> As a recognised derivative we follow Ubuntu's naming scheme. 
[12:39] <astraljava> Are you two on the same discussion? ;)
[13:01] <detrate> :-P
[13:01] <detrate> well the reason I even bring it up is because if I'm trying to brainstorm some mockups
[13:01] <detrate> all I can do is draw abstract shapes and such
[13:01] <detrate> there is no real art beyond the logo
[13:20] <rlameiro> maybe the logo may need to be updated to be more on the line of the new ubuntu logo
[13:29] <detrate> I'd hope a distro targeted more at artists can be more visually pleasing
[13:29] <detrate> I can't say I'm 100% or even 60% with the design changes ubuntu has been making
[13:32] <astraljava> Are you now talking about vanilla Ubuntu or Ubuntu Studio?
[13:32] <detrate> vanilla
[13:32] <detrate> I don't like the new font choice amongst other things
[13:36] <detrate> as far as I can tell ubuntu studio has not used to ubuntu font before
[13:54] <rlameiro> isnt Ckontros part of the art team? maybe this debate could be made with him
[14:19] <astraljava> I thought Cory took a leave of absence. I could be wrong, though, as I've only been back for a couple of weeks or something.
[14:21] <detrate-> cory was in here the other day
[14:26] <astraljava> Yeah I saw that, but I assumed it was merely out of curiosity. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2009-August/001878.html
[14:28] <rlameiro> yeah, but i am almost sure he would help in this matter, since is into artwork
[14:30] <astraljava> That might be true.
[16:25] <scott-work> cory has mentioned that he has very limited time, but it _would_ be awesome if he could be involved with art, even it it was to a limited degree
[16:36] <detrate-> Are there any illustrators with ties to the project?
[16:36] <detrate-> it'd be nice to get a stylish Maverick Meerkat
[16:40] <scott-work> i don't think so
[16:41] <scott-work> i think historically it has been cory by himself doing most of the art direction, although i believe we may have gotten most of our images (gdm screen, wallpaper) from others
[16:45] <scott-work> and cory may have even done most of the work on the dark theme we have
[16:58] <persia> There's limits to how much we can diverge from iconography used over the entire Ubuntu project.  We an embrace it, and frame it, but not change it precisely.
[16:58] <persia> That said, those limits don't preclude some graphics, but they do provide some limits (check with the art team for the specifics of the boundaries for flavours).
[16:59] <persia> It's critical that we don't move from "flavour" to "derivative" or "remix", as we'd lose the ability to integrate with the rest of the project, and share the work.
[17:00] <rlameiro> persia: thats the reason i mentioned ckontros
[17:00] <scott-work> i had not considered the distinction before persia, you bring up some interesting points (i.e. flavour vs. derivative or remix)
[17:01] <persia> It was a *lot* of work to become a flavour, but being a flavour means we get more support from other teams (testing, bugsquad, MOTU, etc.).  It's not *lots* of support, but enough that I think it's worth keeping within the guidelines.
[17:02] <detrate-> well, I mean it in just a fanart kind of way
[17:02] <detrate-> so a stylized background image
[17:02] <detrate-> with the character from the release
[17:02] <detrate-> ~for creators, by creators~ type thing going on
[17:02] <persia> Right.  We just need to run that by the art team and make sure we're not deviating too much.
[17:03] <detrate-> oic
[17:04] <scott-work> detrate-: do you mean something like this   http://www.wallpaperstop.com/wallpapers/product-wallpapers/freebsd-wallpaper-240x150-0017.jpg
[17:04] <scott-work> but maybe in the corner?  and different animals?
[17:05]  * scott-work admits that he is a fan of a uncluttered desktop background image
[17:05] <scott-work> i just realized i was assuming where you wanted to put the stylish Maverick Meerkat, my apologies
[17:06] <rlameiro> yeah, we could have a clean desktop image
[17:06] <scott-work> detrate-: where did you want to use it?
[17:06] <detrate-> more like this -- though not necessarily tans http://juzo-kun.deviantart.com/gallery/#OS-Girls-and-computer-related-mascots
[17:07] <detrate-> anime can be a touchy subject ^_^
[17:08] <rlameiro> lol
[17:08] <rlameiro> for sure
[17:08] <rlameiro> :D
[17:08] <rlameiro> touchy it is
[17:08] <detrate-> but maybe something more like this http://fanart.lionking.org/Artists/Spiritwolf77/ZiruPrisma.jpg
[17:09] <rlameiro> i think it would never made it trough the artwork team
[17:09] <rlameiro> lol
[17:09] <detrate-> obviously not the one from the lion king :-P
[17:09] <rlameiro> hehe
[17:09] <detrate-> but as an example, a stylized meerkat with headphones on, maybe painting a picture
[17:09] <rlameiro> wel need to go to work
[17:09] <detrate-> or djing, who knows!
[17:09] <rlameiro> detrate: only if it is small on a corner for instance
[17:10] <rlameiro> or in the middle
[17:10] <rlameiro> but not to big
[17:10] <rlameiro> well
[17:10] <rlameiro> going now
[17:10] <detrate-> okey dokey
[17:10] <detrate-> I'm just getting the ball rolling on ideas, details can be worked out later
[17:10] <scott-work> detrate-: how about a meerkat taggin a wall, in the bottom right corner of the wallpaper
[17:11] <scott-work> spraying either the ubuntu studio icon or the words "ubuntu studio" on the wall
[17:11] <detrate-> scott-work: would that promote illegal activity though? -P
[17:11] <detrate-> :-P
[17:11] <scott-work> kinda looking back over his shoulder at YOU
[17:12] <scott-work> kinda like this   http://www.individualsole.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/go-flock-yoursel_446_banksy.jpg
[17:12] <scott-work> but small like and kinda cartoonish
[17:12] <detrate-> yeah, that could work
[17:12] <detrate-> probably through some headphones on him
[17:13] <detrate-> maybe have the previous mascot video taping him :-P
[17:13] <detrate-> it'd be cool to highlight the big 3 areas... but focusing on 1 is also acceptable
[17:14] <detrate-> stupid google dirty links
[17:14] <detrate-> I _REALLY_ hate that they try and hide it with javascript
[17:15] <detrate-> anyway, maybe something banksy esque http://www.planetvideo.com.au/blog/2008/11/banksy.html
[17:17] <detrate-> so... does uS have any connections to artists that would be willing to help out in this area?
[17:19] <scott-work> yeah, i likes me some banksy, has some intelligence behind it it does, better than that crap on the sides of trains IMO
[17:20] <scott-work> detrate-: to (not really) answer your last question, i don't think any are actively, *BUT* with a clear vision we might attract someone though
[17:21] <detrate-> bbiab, lunch
[17:25] <scott-work> persia, yesterday when we were discussing "midi (?)" , did you mention lilypad?
[17:26] <scott-work> i seem to recall luke mentioning that before, if he recommends it then i would expect that it would be worth including as well
[17:26] <persia> I didn't mention it.  lilypad produces beautiful scores.
[17:27] <persia> I think musescore is a richer featureset, but I don't use either that much.
[17:28] <persia> But *both* are score editors.  They happen to have (differing) support for MIDI, but they should be considered as score editors, not as enabling "MIDI".
[17:29] <scott-work> right, i was just using "midi(?)" to help frame the previous discussion
[17:30] <scott-work> but for the home enthusiasts (especially the ones who are not instrumentalists) this would be helpfull to create music
[17:30] <scott-work> this = musescore and lilypad
[17:31] <persia> For some definition of "create music" :)
[17:31] <persia> It's useful to generate a score, so if you can read/write scores, it's a great way to share music.
[17:31] <persia> But it's often not a useful way for people to generate audio streams.
[17:32] <persia> (except in that by generating a score, they may be able to work with others to have a recording session)
[17:33] <scott-work> i had come to understand that you can take a Bach sonnata and play it on, say a tuba using lilypad
[17:33] <scott-work> but i think i understand your larger issue
[17:34] <persia> Well, you kinda can.
[17:34] <persia> So if you transcribe the score into a score editor, you can then generate MIDI which can drive a tone generator.
[17:35] <persia> This tends to generate uninspired music though, as it typically has no expression.
[17:35] <persia> Or rather, expression is limited to that indicated in the score.
[17:36] <persia> scores have an inherent assumption that a human will be generating the audio from the score, and that the human in question will express themselves in the music.  This is why different musicians will record the same Bach sonata, and different folks will appreciate the different recordings differently.
[17:37] <persia> Computers aren't that smart, so they just play the indicated notes on the indicated (simulated) instrument for the indicated times (precise to the microsecond).
[17:37] <persia> Which ends up feeling "lifeless" or "uninspired" when later heard by humans.
[17:38] <persia> For rythym generators, there's been a lot of work in algorithms to "humanise" them, by subtly changing the timings to better match how humans tend to play (e.g. in a basic 4/4 backbeat, beats 2 and 4 come a little later than math suggests to provide wider emphasis on beats 1 and 3).
[17:39] <persia> But that only works for fairly simple models.  Attempting to apply such an algorithm to a fugue is an execise in futility.
[17:42] <scott-work> lol @ fugue comment
[17:42] <scott-work> but if the focus is to "create" music then neither lilypond nor musscore really assist
[17:42] <persia> Well, it depends.
[17:43] <persia> If one is creating electronica, it's mostly pointless, especially as much of this consists of looped samples.
[17:43] <persia> If one is doing choral work, it's absolutely critical, as one needs to inform the members of the choir.
[17:44] <persia> Most everything else falls inbetween: it depends on how many other humans are involved.
[17:44] <persia> (and how they want to receive instruction: some guitar players, for instance, prefer tabulature to scores)
[17:46]  * persia faintly dreams of the effective integration of vocoders, harmonizers, and text-to-speech generators
[17:49] <scott-work> i personally find tabulature very easy to read, while some other guitarist with whom i have associated could not use it in any manner (they could not read score either)
[17:50] <persia> Right.  Different folks need slightly different forms.  I presume the second guitarist in your example did best learning by ear.
[17:50] <scott-work> i wrote a song in an afternoone using hydrogen and espeak    last song under 2010 called "M C Azimov"  http://wirblewind.rpmchallenge.com/
[17:51] <scott-work> exactly, he wanted to learn one of the slower, more melodic solos that I typically performed and he required me to show him step-by-step
[17:51] <scott-work> either though we had the tabulature right there
[17:52] <scott-work> i used such words as dopplegangers in the Azimov song, it was great fun creating it!
[17:52]  * scott-work has to go to lunch meeting but will be trying to duck out early
[17:54] <persia> Heh.  That's fun.
[18:16] <detrate-> in the wiki, I feel like all [major] packages should be outlined with screenshots and links to official sites (if available)
[18:17] <persia> detrate-: Go for it :)
[18:17] <detrate-> I'm not saying do this NOW but ideally it would be quite beneficial
[18:17] <detrate-> persia: I don't really know much about the sound related software but when I find some time perhaps I can some for 2d art
[18:17] <detrate-> to give examples
[19:26] <detrate-> well I think some of this goes back to using wiki.ubuntustudio.org to an extent
[19:27] <detrate-> I think that would be an invaluable level of organization, especially if someone find out if we can edit header templates
[19:28] <scott-work> persia: i agree with your correction (developers vs. contributors), i tend to generalize into overt stereotypes far too easily
[19:29] <scott-work> detrate-: are you suggesting that we use wiki.ubuntustudio.org, which will use custom CSS, that will then link to the other pages?
[19:29] <scott-work> but the overall effect is to show a consistent view (format) of the information despite it coming from two different wikis?
[19:31] <persia> We're stuck with the help./wiki. split.
[19:31] <detrate-> well, I think its important to differentiate between enduser and developer focused documentation
[19:31] <detrate-> can we perhaps do help.ubuntustudio.org as well?
[19:31] <persia> There's no precedent at help.kubuntu.org
[19:32] <persia> We could probably do it, but would need coordination.  I'd suggest checking with the #ubuntu-docs folks.
[19:32] <detrate-> I don't really have the authority
[19:32] <detrate-> but I don't see why it wouldn't be doable from a technical standpoint
[19:32] <persia> You have the authority to ask them about how it might work.
[19:32] <detrate-> it's done for wiki and help is run off the same CMS
[19:33] <detrate-> is #ubuntu-docs on another server?
[19:33] <persia> No.
[19:33] <detrate-> it was empty when I joined
[19:34] <persia> Sorry.  It appears to be #ubuntu-doc
[19:38] <scott-work> persia:  please take this as the compliment it is intended to be;  sometimes you sound like Yoda, you are able to see things in a simple manner and state them likewise
[19:38] <detrate-> Okay, I've asked them some questions
[19:38] <scott-work> "You have the authority to ask them about how it might work."
[19:38] <persia> Thanks :)
[19:38] <scott-work> as where others (myself included) tend to over complicate issues
[19:40] <detrate-> check out this crazy css masking effect http://econsultancy.com/blog/016-online-pr-capitalisation-is-fine-but-caps-lock-isn-t
[19:40] <detrate-> on the logo (scroll up and down)
[19:40] <detrate-> I've never seen that implemented before
[19:41] <detrate-> I came across that trying to prove that you should capitalize text via the CSS layer
[19:41] <detrate-> because my in-house design team thinks it's cool to use capslock for headers all the freakin time
[19:41] <detrate-> and my interns sometimes like to just type out HEADER NAME in the HTML
[19:42] <detrate-> which I imagine is bad for SEO
[19:43] <detrate-> where >> <h2 class="uppercase">Header Name</h2> .uppercase { text-transform: uppercase; } << is still the same visually but my guess is it's treated nicer by the page rank algorithm
[19:44] <persia> Makes sense: most of the automated stuff is case sensitive.
[19:45] <detrate-> I figured it would be but had no proof
[19:47] <detrate-> So I'm guessing most of you are using GNOME?
[19:48] <scott-work> when i'm not at work and using windows, yes
[19:48] <scott-work> there are some people at ubuntuforums who use xfce or kde and then install the metapackages
[19:49] <scott-work> linux outlaws already have a stylish meerkat design for us     http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/145
[19:49] <scott-work> scroll down a bit, about 1/3
[19:56] <detrate-> sorry was distracted for a moment, one of the graphic artists came to speak with me
[19:57] <detrate-> you talking anout this? http://linuxoutlaws.com/files/squirrel-balls.jpg
[19:57] <detrate-> :-P
[20:02] <scott-work> yeah, that was it - that would be like Fab to think of that
[20:46] <rlameiro> hello
[21:20] <detrate-> I received information for #ubuntu-doc -- Matthew East has shown me a theme that answers some of my questions http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme/annotate/head%3A/MoinMoin/theme/ubuntunew.py
[21:33] <persia> Excellent!
[21:33] <persia> mdke is a great contact in general, for documentation-related stuff.
[21:34] <detrate-> yes, we seemed to have a good rapport going so far
[21:34] <detrate-> would you like to see the log?