[00:41] <Caesar> Hey Keybuk so what is the expected behaviour when an Upstart job gets removed?
[00:41] <Caesar> i.e. unlinked
[01:57] <Keybuk> depends
[01:58] <Keybuk> is the job still running?
[05:26] <markl_> should rc-sysinit.conf start on startup?
[05:27] <markl_> mine says start on filesystem and net-device-up IFACE=lo
[05:28] <markl_> i'll bet this is why i'm not getting a runlevel, the filesystem part is "failing"
[05:28] <sadmac> markl_: fix the filesystem part
[05:31] <markl_> what if i use mount -a instead of mountall --daemon?  
[05:31] <markl_> mountall seems to be failing badly
[05:35] <sadmac> markl_: you should debug mountall. Keybuk and ion are probably the only two people in the world qualified to speak on it.
[05:41] <Keybuk> change the exec line in /etc/init/mountall.conf to have --debug
[05:41] <Keybuk> what error message do you see on the splash screen?
[05:41] <Keybuk> it should let you skip the failing filesystems or drop to a shell
[05:50] <markl_> heh
[05:51] <Keybuk> sadmac: slangasek knows the code as well ;)
[05:51] <markl_> well it's a little more complicated than that; i'm making an openvz template.  which means no console at all; i really need to get upstart to write its debug info to a file
[05:51] <Keybuk> oh
[05:51] <Keybuk> upgrade your kernel
[05:51] <Keybuk> 10.04 LTS needs 2.6.32 minimum
[05:51] <Keybuk> mountall isn't the only thing that will fail with an earlier version, it's just the first thing that you hit
[05:52] <Keybuk> mountall, upstart, udev, ureadahead, libdrm, X, plymouth, etc.  all depend on features not found in older kernels
[05:54] <markl_> ah fun
[05:54] <Keybuk> (and yes, I know OpenVZ is a huge pile of messy patches and there's no newer kernel version for it - I consider this an OpenVZ problem - and not the only problem with OpenVZ either)
[05:56] <markl_> what are some of the others, just out of curiosity?
[05:56] <Keybuk> the fact the kernel has several well known security vulnerabilities?
[05:57] <Keybuk> the fact it doesn't provide a POSIX userland?
[05:59] <markl_> do you have info on the current vulnerabilities?  they typically keep up with the red hat kernels
[06:01] <markl_> not a whole lot on google about it
[06:03] <markl_> except hypervm, lots about that
[06:06] <sadmac> markl_: why not kvm or linux containers then?
[06:09] <markl_> maybe some day, openvz is just too cool and mature.
[06:09] <markl_> i like the efficiency, and lxc is just not usable yet
[06:09] <markl_> it does suck that the vz kernel patch is so massive that linus would never accept it
[06:10] <markl_> isn't kvm like xen?  where you have to boot up a whole new kernel?
[06:10] <sadmac> markl_: yes. what's the problem?
[06:11] <markl_> http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2007/HPL-2007-59R1.html
[06:12] <sadmac> ok
[06:13] <markl_> http://www.brianmadden.com/blogs/videos/archive/2009/08/20/Hypervisors-vs.-OS-Virtualization-Smackdown_2C00_-a-video-from-BriForum-2009.aspx
[06:13] <markl_> xen-like systems are good when you don't care about efficiency
[06:13] <markl_> but if you need a console, or to mix different operating systems, then it is necessary
[06:13] <sadmac> markl_: that's a strong statement
[06:15] <sadmac> markl_: I can tell you that 5% overhead is usually expected on the RHEL virt stack
[06:16] <markl_> plus a ton of wasted memory
[06:16] <sadmac> not for long
[06:16] <sadmac> the page de-duplication stuff should fix that
[06:18] <markl_> yeah, i use it when i need to bring up a windows machine, it is cool for that
[06:19] <sadmac> what do you need all these containers for then?
[06:20] <markl_> i keep each service on its own vm; test environments, different build enviroments for different clients
[06:20] <markl_> i can still use different distros at least
[06:21] <markl_> and it's great for bringing up a new vm quickly, since installing is just a tar command (or snapshot if you use a san)
[06:22] <sadmac> that applies to most virt technologies
[06:23] <sadmac> (well, not a tar command, but san snapshotting or copying the image file)
[06:23] <markl_> give it a try next time you are bored and looking for a toy to play with
[06:24] <markl_> one guy in the channel had like 1000 vm's going on his machine 
[06:24] <markl_> hosting companies have been using it most over the past years
[06:24] <markl_> anyway, a real upstart question; should i be able to put "echo" in the script/end script section of one of the .conf files?
[06:25] <markl_> e.g. instead of mountall
[06:25] <markl_> e.g. echo "foo" > /tmp/foo
[06:27] <markl_> ok that seems to work.  plymouth starts up but that is the only service
[06:36] <sadmac> markl_: from what Keybuk just said I doubt this will ever work, or that it will make your life easier once it does.
[06:37] <sadmac> markl_: unless you want to forward port it might be time to look for an older OS or a different container system
[06:40] <markl_> this is a fun way to at least get familiar with upstart.  how does "emits" work?  it looks like many of these scripts seem to do an exec
[06:42] <sadmac> markl_: emits means a job may emit other events by way of its scripts. I think its used to prevent some odd races but in general its just nice to let upstart know.
[06:43] <Keybuk> emits doesn't do anything
[06:43] <Keybuk> it's just documentation
[06:43] <Keybuk> there so you can run perl over /etc/init and make dotty
[06:43] <sadmac> Keybuk: ah. didn't it prevent some sort of potential hang at one point?
[06:45] <Keybuk> no
[06:46] <Keybuk> markl_: I have the OpenVZ guys some hints for getting an "ubuntu lite" booted on it over 6 months ago
[06:46] <Keybuk> s/have/gave/
[06:46] <markl_> they are way too into rhel/centos unfortunately
[06:47] <Keybuk> RHEL 6 uses Upstart
[06:47] <Keybuk> and tbh, it's not Upstart that's the issue here
[06:47] <markl_> cool
[06:47] <Keybuk> it's De-HALificiation
[06:47] <Keybuk> the kernel feature that let us remove HAL was only added in recent releases
[06:47] <Keybuk> so any distro without HAL is going to hit the exact same error you hit
[06:47] <Keybuk> (iirc. mountall fails because of an assertion error opening a "udev" netlink socket?)
[06:48] <markl_> well the question i have is that rc-sysinit is waiting for "filesystem"
[06:48] <markl_> does that mean that whatever mountall.conf execs has to return a 0 code?
[06:48] <markl_> so that the "emits filesystem" happens
[06:48] <markl_> ?
[06:48] <Keybuk> no, whatever mountall.conf execs has to communicate with Upstart via D-Bus and ask for a "filesystem" event to be emitted
[06:48] <Keybuk> ignore the "emits" lines
[06:49] <Keybuk> (upstart does)
[06:49] <Keybuk> they mean as much as the "author" and "description" lines ;)
[06:49] <markl_> ah ok gotcha
[06:49] <Keybuk> usually replacing mountall.conf with something like
[06:49] <Keybuk> script
[06:49] <Keybuk>   initctl emit virtual-fielsystems
[06:49] <Keybuk>   initctl emit loacl-filesystems
[06:49] <Keybuk>   initctl emit remote-filesystems
[06:49] <Keybuk>   initctl emit all-swaps
[06:49] <Keybuk>   initctl emit all-filesystem
[06:49] <Keybuk> end script
[06:49] <Keybuk> does most of the job
[06:49] <markl_> ok looks like i need to read up on initctl, ty!!
[06:49] <Keybuk> (but with better spelling)
[06:49] <markl_> heh
[06:49] <Keybuk> but you also need to obviously mount things
[06:50] <Keybuk> mount -a will probably work inside a vz, since you don't have to wait for the hardware
[06:50] <markl_> yeah i just need /proc
[06:50] <Keybuk> though bear in mind you need everything from /lib/init/fstab as well
[06:51] <markl_> ok cool, good to know
[06:52] <Keybuk> that should at least get you up to getty ;-)
[06:52] <markl_> does anything read /lib/init/fstab or is it there for documentation?
[06:52] <markl_> heh :)
[06:53] <markl_> i think i could do what i need now if i ifup the network and start ssh by hand.  but that would be taking the easy way out :)
[06:57] <markl_> hmm, when i try to execute mount it bombs out of the mountall.conf
[06:57] <markl_> is there a restriction on what commands i can run in there?
[07:08] <markl_> ah, i see!  if you execute a command that doesn't return a 0, upstart will stop executing your script
[07:17] <markl_> hmm well /proc is already mounted before mountall is even called
[07:17] <markl_> so i'll just make a mountall_vz.conf that does what you suggested up there.
[07:17] <markl_> i am not a fan of PFM
[07:20] <markl_> how important are "expect daemon" and "task"
[07:31] <markl_> and does "initctl emit" require a dbus process?  it looks like 10.04 doesn't install any sort of dbus
[07:47] <markl_> hmm: # initctl emit virtual-filesystems
[07:47] <markl_> initctl: Event failed
[07:54] <markl_> ok on that note, bed time
[15:24] <markl_> morning
[15:42] <markl_> does initctl without --system require the lo interface to be up?
[15:42] <markl_> also, what does it mean if initctl freezes when doing something like: initctl emit filesystem
[18:30] <markl_> ok i'm starting to dig into the source to figure out "initctl: Event failed".  Does this mean that the init process sent back a response?  How can I get details on why it failed?
[18:34] <sadmac> markl_: it means that the event was supposed to make some job start, and that job failed to start'
[19:01] <markl_> ah ok so it is not just delivering the event notification, it actually gets a result back.  cool
[19:10] <markl_> ok how does the init process know what to do with an event named "filesystem" ?
[19:11] <markl_> does it just run all of the confs that are set to start on filesystem?
[19:23] <Keybuk> yes
[19:26] <markl_> Keybuk/sadmac: good morning, long time no chat!
[19:26] <markl_> what time zone are you guys in?
[19:27] <Keybuk> markl_: I'm in US/Pacific at the moment; normally UK though
[19:27] <markl_> cool, i live in utah, not too far away
[19:27] <markl_> no ocean in between, at least
[19:28] <markl_> it is interesting that your election is getting so much coverage over here
[19:38] <jMCg> A couple of months ago I talked with @developer about upstart and Linux Capabilities. Now I run into pam_cap -- since doing a quick and dirty hack with su/sudo wouldn't do it: http://dpaste.com/186954/ -- I was wondering how the plan to implement caps in upstart looks exactly, since this pam_caps seems like an easy way around...
[19:39] <Keybuk> there isn't a plan
[19:39] <Keybuk> that isn't to say there couldn't be a plan
[19:42] <sadmac> Keybuk: in frisco again?
[19:43] <Keybuk> sadmac: I'm in SF yes
[19:43] <sadmac> Keybuk: you seem to get over there an awful lot
[19:47] <Keybuk> part of the job
[19:49] <ion> keybuk: Do you know whether you’ll get more time for Upstart in the next cycle?
[19:53] <Keybuk> ion: I can't see how I could possibly get any *more* time for Upstart in the next cycle
[19:53] <Keybuk> since I've arranged to be 100% working on Upstart for it
[19:54] <ion> Heh
[19:54]  * sadmac can't get the caffene into his head any faster
[19:55] <sadmac> I don't remember the last time I was awake
[19:55] <sadmac> Keybuk: what's in SF that Canonical keeps sending you to go see?
[19:56] <Keybuk> sadmac: this visit was the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit
[19:56] <Keybuk> that was last week
[19:56] <Keybuk> then there was a volcano
[19:56] <Keybuk> so now I'm not going home until the 29th April
[19:56] <sadmac> Keybuk: not into ash?
[19:57] <Keybuk> I avoid cloud wherever possible ;)
[19:58] <sadmac> Keybuk: I'm going be in SF in late June I think.
[19:58] <sadmac> Keybuk: perhaps you'll find a reason to be there as well. There MAY be auto racing, and I MAY be dressed as The Stig. No promises.
[19:59] <Keybuk> lol
[20:15] <jMCg> There, I added a rant on lunchpad... Or dinnerpad..mmm...
[20:16] <jMCg> https://answers.launchpad.net/upstart/+question/45946
[20:33] <Keybuk> a rant on twitter is usually equally effective
[20:33] <Keybuk> as is shouting into the wind on a rainy winter's night
[20:34] <Keybuk> (I don't think anyone reads answers.lp.net :p)
[20:38] <Keybuk> jMCg: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/upstart/+filebug
[23:37] <markl_> if i want to register an event "foo" in /etc/init, do i just add a "start on foo" line?
[23:37] <markl_> appears to work this time, ok cool
[23:51] <markl_> ok what is the point of plymouth, just to show a fancy graphical screen on bootup?