ScottLpersia, would it be possible to made adjustments to the alternate install menu?  create new options to run special scripts?00:34
rlameirohey ScottL :D00:38
ScottLhiya rlameiro 00:40
persiaScottL: Anything is possible.  Some things are hard to maintain.  Is there something specific you want to do?00:41
ScottLpersia, i was talking with troy_s about expanding the user base, which would probably include people unfamiliar with linux02:14
* ScottL thinks talking with troy_s is a stimulating experience by the way02:15
persiaGenerally :)02:15
persiaThe only issue I have with such discussions is that I always end up with 3-5 (more) action items :)02:15
persiaBut I think we have to take it one step at a time.  Let's first make sure we have a flavour that is interesting for folks that have some (limited) familarity (or are willing to develop it), and then target folks that are less familiar.02:16
ScottLto help out their experience i thought about adjusting the alternate install menu to 1) use language linux ignorant people would understand and 2) run scripts to "automate" installation based on their choice02:16
persiaAdjusting that is *hard*02:17
ScottLi was just probing the feasibility of it02:17
persiaThe alternate install is built as a framework and a pluggable set of state machines implemented in shell scripts.02:17
persiaSo that would involve implementing a new controller (and have it somehow work with any interesting pluggable module), and handling string interactions, etc.02:18
persiaThe ubiquity project is designed to do precisely that, but only works for live installs.02:18
persiaThis *may* be a sufficient argument for migrating to LiveCDs, but it would need someone who could spend 5-10 hours weekly helping maintain the installer, rather than being something we get for free.02:19
persiaThat goes down to 2-3 hours weekly if we don't meaningfully modify ubiquity, but that's still a bundle of time.02:19
persia(and both numbers exclude the initial porting effort).02:19
ScottLbut as you said, we probably need to focus on those familiar first02:20
ScottLbut it is possible, just probably not tenable02:20
persiaCreating a *brand new* installer controller framework is probably on the order of 3-4 months of solid development to get something buggy, and will be met with derision from the rest of the project, as we already have *two*.02:20
persiaRight.  Like I said initially, anything is possible, but some things are harder to maintain.  This would fall into that latter category :)02:20
ScottLi'll keep thinking about ways to engage new users, not actively, just in the back of my head02:22
persiaSounds like a good plan.  Ask if you want an idea critiqued.  Sometimes I can't shoot something down :)02:23
persiaBut really, don't take my critiques as negative: much of the time I point out issues so that they can be resolved, rather than as part of an attempt to not do something.02:24
persiaIt's intended as constructive, although it doesn't always come across that way.02:25
ScottLi don't view them in any other way than constructive02:39
ScottLactually, i find your comments are informed and your advise sound ;)02:54
troy_sWow. Lots o pings.03:00
=== ubott2 is now known as ubottu
detratepersonally I use ubuntu system panel as my menu.  I've tried gnomenu and a few others and USP is the least buggy :-P13:59
scott-workyou use a menu?  ewww, i type everything from terminal ;)14:01
detratewell, the best part about USP is the filter search imho14:06
* persia suspects ubuntu-system-panel will need to have it's name changed at some point, not being software specific to Ubuntu, or even *in* Ubuntu.14:08
detratehere I made a write up about it a while ago http://www.doknowevil.net/2009/05/07/ubuntu-system-panel-a-start-menu-for-the-power-user/14:08
detrateyeah... it should target gnome in general more14:08
persia(getting it in Ubuntu is feasible, but probably only with a name change)14:08
detrateit also probably needs a better configuration gui14:08
persiaI have no complaints about it targetting Ubuntu intentionally upstream :)  I just happen to believe that that use of the term "Ubuntu" exceeds the usage permitted by the trademark policy.14:09
detrateyeah, I can agree to that14:09
detrateThis may be a stretch but perhaps ubuntu studio should attempt to recategorize items in the menu as well14:10
detratespecific to audio/video/music14:10
detrateI'm just trying to consider ways to get the users to the applications that need faster14:11
persiaThere's an ubuntustudio-menu package that does just that :)14:11
detrateoh awesome :)14:12
scott-workdetrate: is this you?  http://www.doknowevil.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/love_my_desktop.jpg14:16
detratefanboy in the house14:17
detrateI have a poster in my office to help spread the word :)14:19
scott-workpersia: i've gotten two people at work to use ubuntu:  one uses mythbuntu and the other runs vanilla at home14:19
detrateI thought the mythbuntu was very beta14:20
persiaThree cheers for advocation!14:20
persiadetrate: It's been around for a lot of years.  A new beta was just released a couple weeks ago, but that was the same as the beta Ubuntu Studio had a couple weeks ago: lucid beta, not first release beta.14:21
scott-worki've also offered to set up Ubuntu Studio for people and get them up and running if they want to dual boot or fresh install on an old computer - no takers yet14:21
detratewell by beta I mean, it's not very stable all around as a DVR14:21
detratethat is what I've heard14:21
scott-worki've got a new approach on the outreach program based on linux's ability to run on older machines, say P4 2.3ghz min14:22
detratehttp://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/9g2mfap3x7jdgzsrol0t.jpg << my poster14:22
detrateI just tell people they can try it risk free with a livecd14:22
scott-worki'm spending my own cash (~$250) for computer and Audiophile card, installing and setting up Ubuntu Studio, and giving it to people I know14:22
detratewell, I don't "just" do that but it's usually a foot in the door to a bigger conversation about linux if they are interested :)14:22
detratethat's nice of you scott-work14:23
scott-worki like the recursive screen shot  - that's awesome14:23
detrateinspire your neighbors and they'll inspire you back :)14:23
scott-workhell, these are engineers, i'm hoping they'll become devs!   :D14:23
scott-workkidding again14:23
detrateone of the least computer savvy people I put on ubuntu has drastically changed my workflow because of a feature they asked about14:24
scott-worki'm not doing it every week (i can't afford that!) and it's limited to finding a really good deal on surplus computers14:24
detrateI've switched from the compiz cube to manage my virutal desktops to the grid view which I activate with hot corners on my monitors14:25
scott-workbut my baseline is really low...seriously, a P4, 2.3ghz with 2gigs of memory works surprisingly well for Studio14:25
detratescott-work: have you thought about scalability?14:25
detratebecause you may be limiting yourself going with a p414:25
scott-workdetrate: is that like gnome shell 3.0?14:25
detratescott-work: no, compiz, gnome-shell BREAKS compiz14:25
detrateso I'll sooner ditch gnome than compiz14:25
detratewell unless kwin fixes their dual monitor issues14:25
detratebecause kwin is pretty slick14:26
scott-worki meant the grid...i've seen pictures of gnome 3.0 which shows all screens in the grid14:26
detrateyes, it's a similar idea, I have screenshots14:26
detratehold on14:26
scott-workfor scalability, these are individual guys at home, recording themselves and multitracking, maybe record hydrogen drums along with themselves and singing at most14:27
scott-workBUT, it gets them involved, i've done all the hard work and i'll show them how to use it14:27
scott-worki expect to hear, "Wow!  It's awesome and much easier to use than I thought!  I wish I had done this sooner."14:28
detratehttp://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/x5ergsokyi9jsxq4rsi.png << this is the grid view14:28
detrateI think it's called "expo"14:28
detratein compiz14:28
detratewhat I meant on scalability is that you should consider going dual core with a motherboard that supports quadcore14:29
scott-workah, i gotcha...for *my* next computer I shall14:29
scott-worki'll probably go quad anyways14:29
detratethose boards will likely support up to 8-16gb of RAM as well, so the user will be able to keep that computer going for a while14:29
scott-workbut for these freebies for other people i'll go cheap14:29
detratewell, if you're looking to build on a budget14:30
detrateusing a similar setup I built some client machines for ~$35014:30
detratethat was starting with 4gb of ram and a dualcore14:30
detrateand 2gb of ram was only ~$5014:30
scott-workmaybe they'll even buy their own computer because they want dual/quad core and i'll get my computer back to give to someone else ;)14:30
scott-workyeah, really the prices are so low these days14:31
* persia saw a 1.4GHz/1GB/40GB computer today selling for ¥80014:33
detratemaybe document in the wiki basic setups for computers, example setups maybe even link to newegg wishlists14:33
persiaI believe that's something like $10, and it was retail in a store, not some garage sale.14:33
detratehehe ^_^14:33
detratethey have cellphones with twice that power in japan14:33
detrateokay, maybe not14:34
detratebut soon14:35
scott-workyeah, but shipping would be really expensive to get it to Texas, USA persia :P14:35
persiaHave had them for a while.14:35
persiaI *have* a phone I bought almost two years ago that's about that powerful.14:35
persia(same HD size, same memory, 1.2GHz proc)14:36
detrateahh, this is the best one I know, granted I haven't done that much research http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/14:36
persiascott-work: Probably.  That was a mid-size tower :)14:36
persiaThat's not all that powerful, really.  It's nice, but it's moderate.  Also, Nokia stopped seilling stuff in the Japanese market.14:36
scott-workdan from linux outlaws has a 900 and he likes it tremendously i believe14:37
detratewhhhat? why did they stop?14:37
scott-workwhy persia14:37
persiaAnd, at least for me, "best" != "most powerful" for phones.  That phone (which also has a 1024x600 display, etc.) is much heavier than I can put up with putting in my pocket all the time14:37
detrateI settled for an iphone but I'd like a maemo linux phone ;-P14:38
persiaTheir products sold badly here.  Their product cycle was so long that their products were usually considered outdated, and they almsot never introduced any new or interesting features compared with competing products.14:38
detratebut my carrier doesn't really believe in freedom14:38
detrateit's business here, they want you to buy from their content delivery network14:39
scott-workmy wife wanted iphones, i wanted droid - we visited both stores, the verizon guys were so rude and arrogant my wife refused droid -> we have iphones14:39
detrateeven the most basic of phones I've received from my carrier, they make the main button try and get you into their store to buy crap14:39
detrateyeah, you don't want a droid right now anyway14:40
scott-worki have found the iphone to be useful, in a freedom hating way :P14:40
detrateI have 2 people that are looking to get rid of theres14:40
persiaCarriers here all hard-lock every phone.  There is no switching.14:40
detratewell, maybe it's just their phone version14:40
detratemotorolla g1 I believe14:40
persiaBut the product cycle is about 3 months, and extremely competitive, so there's never that long before each carrier has what one wants.14:41
persiaEven so, all *7* carriers compete madly to have new cool features before the other ones (even if only by a couple weeks).14:41
scott-workand we complain about a 6 month release cycle14:42
scott-worki can't imagine that kind of pressure14:42
scott-workpersia: i have seen several mentions of subdiving the audio submenu into further categorical submenu based on function, do you have a particular feeling about this?14:44
persiaI think the right way to do it is to review http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html, extend it if necessary, and then have the menu generation tool create more submenus *if* greater than some number (e.g. 7) items would appear in a list.14:48
persiaSo "Sound and Video" might turn into "Sound" and "Video", and then further break down, depending on how much is installed for a given user.14:49
scott-worki was thinking of dividing the sound/video menu as well...3 menu levels is that max i like, but 2 is really the comfortable maximum14:53
persiaI don't think any static model works.14:53
persiaOtherwise users will complain "How come my menus are so nested when I only have 1 item in lots of places" and other users will complain "I have too many items in the quux menu".14:54
scott-worki didn't mean in a static sense, i meant more in a useability sense14:54
persiaIf we do it dymanically, the first thing will never happen, and the response to the second is "Well, those are the freedesktop.org categories.  Do you have suggestions for how to break down better?  Please file a bug."14:55
scott-workyou mentioned a "menu generation tool" - what is this tool and how would one find it/apply it?14:56
scott-worki ask that because our menu doesn't seem to automatically assign new applications correctly14:56
scott-worki've seen it all go under audio14:56
scott-workperhaps it's my application methodology14:57
scott-workapplication = verb14:57
persiagnome-menu is an example of a menu generation tool.14:58
persiaIt's informed by the configuration in /etc/xdg/menu and things referenced from there.14:58
persiaIf you want the details of how implementations *should* behave, check the spec from which I pasted the appendix link :)14:59
scott-worki have perused it, but i didn't see anything about the mechanics of how Ubuntu might apply these, rather just how it is applied15:01
persiaTHe spec only says how it's supposed to work.15:01
scott-workis the menu like an interpretive language and not static?15:01
persiaThe impementation for GNOME is gnome-menus.15:01
scott-workokay, i'll look up gnome-menus and see if that answers my question15:01
persiaUbuntu Studio has additionally ubuntustudio-menus which modifies the configuration.15:01
scott-workright, i've done work on ubuntustudio-menu, which is a bit of a mess, and this is the impetus to the question15:02
persiaFixing all the categories, and making sure gnome-menus does the right thing is the better solution.15:04
persiaFor an example of how it *should* work, install gnome-games and inspect the menu.  Then install sgt-puzzles, and look at it again.15:04
scott-worksorry, i'm dense sometimes, rather i have a bias towards certain answers, my apologies15:05
scott-workyou are saying fix the categories and let it work like it should and it will fix the problem15:05
scott-worki wasn't suggesting making the menu static with menu entries to force applications in certain menus/submenus15:06
scott-worki was advocating removing audiovideo as a category and letting it go back into separate audio and video menus15:07
persiaRight.  ubuntustudio-menu does the static forcing now, which I consider a (minor) bug, but it's lots less work than trying to fix it correctly.15:07
persiaI've not done a full review, but I suspect that fixing it correctly may require changes to the spec.15:08
persiaAnd I strongly suspect it means some refactoring of how gnome-menus configuration is shipped, so it can be overridden (or else changing it for everyone).15:08
scott-workthis may be moot if we limit the scope of Ubuntu Studio but I had wanted to talk to you about this before and I do like to learn15:09
persiaI don't think it's moot.15:09
persiaIt's a problem worth solving in general.15:10
scott-workand the "static forcing" vs gnome-menu is the part that confused me, apparently two different methodologies and i wasn't sure which was the deviation from nominal15:10
scott-workwell, i meant moot as in we may not be forced to address it15:11
persiagnome-menus as an implementation of the specification leaves something to be desired.15:11
persiaIt adds some bits, and hardcodes some bits, and mangles some bits.15:11
persiaubuntustudio-menu layers more mangling and hardcoding on top of that.15:11
scott-workyes, that helps me tremendously   (that is a serious statement, not facetious by any means)15:11
persiaWe're definitely not forced to address it, but it would be a net gain for everyone if we found a way to do it cleanly.15:12
scott-worktroy_s: i'm still working through the logs of the other night's discussion - you said at one point, "There is one of the most prolific and stoundout audio reps here with _deep_ knowledge of it."17:42
scott-workOf whom were you speaking?17:42
troy_sscott-work: crimsun. Strictly in terms of his long term sustained contribution to audio in Debian / Ubuntu. Google around.17:43
scott-worki shall, thanks!17:44
troy_sscott-work: There are a couple others too, but I was merely giving an example of the type of person.17:44
scott-worki'm kinda embarassed to admit that i know next to nothing about him17:44
scott-workhe's not active on this channel and therefore not in my immediate attention17:44
ScottLhi abogani tonight i write a wiki page for you notes on the kernel, sorry it's taken a while to get to this point19:12
ScottLperisa, i was thinking on the way home from work about limiting scope to primarily audio19:24
ScottLremoving any video/graphics applications risks losing *some* users (even with offering meta-packages)19:24
ScottLit would behoove us to make sure the effect actually increases the user base19:25
detrateI'm not so sure about that19:38
detrateI probalby wouldn't be here if art wasn't involved, I'm just recently getting into creating music19:39
detrateand are the applications for graphics/video really that much to add?19:39
detrateI've almost come to accept that GIMP is on all linux desktops :-P19:39
ScottLsorry, i'm didn't mean to suggest that we remove *all* video/graphical applications, but just keep a minimum amount that serve needs19:41
holsteinfor graphics, is there set-up issues like there are for audio?19:41
holsteinseems like for the audio proffessional, having the RT kernel installed and permissions set-up could be very handy19:42
detrateI'd think for graphics the main applications people would want would be GIMP, Inkscape and image magick, perhaps some pallete programs / screenshot programs19:42
detrateI'd actually go as far to say the image view should be replaced with something more robust.  I think gThumb is more powerful than Eye of GNOME.  It can be configured to work just like eog as well.19:43
ScottLnot to sound like troy.s but do these applications support our target audience?20:15
detratewell you advertise them on the website currently... so I'd hope so20:48
detratethe gthumb suggestion is just a matter of efficiency20:48
ScottLhehe, well we may be changing the website pretty dramatically after we define the audience ;)20:55
* ScottL and family are going to crawfish boil20:56
detrateWell, I really hope you don't cut out the other creators20:56
detrateI understand audio is your primary focus but I don't know if there is a big gain in not adding the essential art programs.20:57
detrateI don't think they'll save you enough space to get down to cd size20:57
detratewow, I just tried synfig for the first time, feels pretty solid21:05

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