[00:34] <ScottL> persia, would it be possible to made adjustments to the alternate install menu?  create new options to run special scripts?
[00:38] <rlameiro> hey ScottL :D
[00:40] <ScottL> hiya rlameiro 
[00:41] <persia> ScottL: Anything is possible.  Some things are hard to maintain.  Is there something specific you want to do?
[02:14] <ScottL> persia, i was talking with troy_s about expanding the user base, which would probably include people unfamiliar with linux
[02:15]  * ScottL thinks talking with troy_s is a stimulating experience by the way
[02:15] <persia> Generally :)
[02:15] <persia> The only issue I have with such discussions is that I always end up with 3-5 (more) action items :)
[02:16] <persia> But I think we have to take it one step at a time.  Let's first make sure we have a flavour that is interesting for folks that have some (limited) familarity (or are willing to develop it), and then target folks that are less familiar.
[02:16] <ScottL> to help out their experience i thought about adjusting the alternate install menu to 1) use language linux ignorant people would understand and 2) run scripts to "automate" installation based on their choice
[02:17] <persia> Adjusting that is *hard*
[02:17] <ScottL> i was just probing the feasibility of it
[02:17] <persia> The alternate install is built as a framework and a pluggable set of state machines implemented in shell scripts.
[02:18] <persia> So that would involve implementing a new controller (and have it somehow work with any interesting pluggable module), and handling string interactions, etc.
[02:18] <persia> The ubiquity project is designed to do precisely that, but only works for live installs.
[02:19] <persia> This *may* be a sufficient argument for migrating to LiveCDs, but it would need someone who could spend 5-10 hours weekly helping maintain the installer, rather than being something we get for free.
[02:19] <persia> That goes down to 2-3 hours weekly if we don't meaningfully modify ubiquity, but that's still a bundle of time.
[02:19] <persia> (and both numbers exclude the initial porting effort).
[02:20] <ScottL> but as you said, we probably need to focus on those familiar first
[02:20] <ScottL> but it is possible, just probably not tenable
[02:20] <persia> Creating a *brand new* installer controller framework is probably on the order of 3-4 months of solid development to get something buggy, and will be met with derision from the rest of the project, as we already have *two*.
[02:20] <persia> Right.  Like I said initially, anything is possible, but some things are harder to maintain.  This would fall into that latter category :)
[02:22] <ScottL> i'll keep thinking about ways to engage new users, not actively, just in the back of my head
[02:23] <persia> Sounds like a good plan.  Ask if you want an idea critiqued.  Sometimes I can't shoot something down :)
[02:23] <ScottL> lol
[02:24] <persia> But really, don't take my critiques as negative: much of the time I point out issues so that they can be resolved, rather than as part of an attempt to not do something.
[02:25] <persia> It's intended as constructive, although it doesn't always come across that way.
[02:39] <ScottL> i don't view them in any other way than constructive
[02:54] <ScottL> actually, i find your comments are informed and your advise sound ;)
[03:00] <troy_s> Wow. Lots o pings.
[13:59] <detrate> personally I use ubuntu system panel as my menu.  I've tried gnomenu and a few others and USP is the least buggy :-P
[14:01] <scott-work> you use a menu?  ewww, i type everything from terminal ;)
[14:02] <scott-work> kidding
[14:06] <detrate> :-P
[14:06] <detrate> well, the best part about USP is the filter search imho
[14:08]  * persia suspects ubuntu-system-panel will need to have it's name changed at some point, not being software specific to Ubuntu, or even *in* Ubuntu.
[14:08] <detrate> here I made a write up about it a while ago http://www.doknowevil.net/2009/05/07/ubuntu-system-panel-a-start-menu-for-the-power-user/
[14:08] <detrate> yeah... it should target gnome in general more
[14:08] <persia> (getting it in Ubuntu is feasible, but probably only with a name change)
[14:08] <detrate> it also probably needs a better configuration gui
[14:09] <persia> I have no complaints about it targetting Ubuntu intentionally upstream :)  I just happen to believe that that use of the term "Ubuntu" exceeds the usage permitted by the trademark policy.
[14:09] <detrate> yeah, I can agree to that
[14:10] <detrate> This may be a stretch but perhaps ubuntu studio should attempt to recategorize items in the menu as well
[14:10] <detrate> specific to audio/video/music
[14:11] <detrate> I'm just trying to consider ways to get the users to the applications that need faster
[14:11] <persia> There's an ubuntustudio-menu package that does just that :)
[14:12] <detrate> oh awesome :)
[14:16] <scott-work> detrate: is this you?  http://www.doknowevil.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/love_my_desktop.jpg
[14:16] <detrate> yes
[14:17] <detrate> fanboy in the house
[14:18] <scott-work> haha
[14:19] <detrate> I have a poster in my office to help spread the word :)
[14:19] <scott-work> persia: i've gotten two people at work to use ubuntu:  one uses mythbuntu and the other runs vanilla at home
[14:20] <detrate> I thought the mythbuntu was very beta
[14:20] <persia> Three cheers for advocation!
[14:20] <scott-work> yay!
[14:21] <persia> detrate: It's been around for a lot of years.  A new beta was just released a couple weeks ago, but that was the same as the beta Ubuntu Studio had a couple weeks ago: lucid beta, not first release beta.
[14:21] <scott-work> i've also offered to set up Ubuntu Studio for people and get them up and running if they want to dual boot or fresh install on an old computer - no takers yet
[14:21] <scott-work> BUT
[14:21] <detrate> well by beta I mean, it's not very stable all around as a DVR
[14:21] <detrate> that is what I've heard
[14:22] <scott-work> i've got a new approach on the outreach program based on linux's ability to run on older machines, say P4 2.3ghz min
[14:22] <detrate> http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/9g2mfap3x7jdgzsrol0t.jpg << my poster
[14:22] <detrate> I just tell people they can try it risk free with a livecd
[14:22] <scott-work> i'm spending my own cash (~$250) for computer and Audiophile card, installing and setting up Ubuntu Studio, and giving it to people I know
[14:22] <detrate> well, I don't "just" do that but it's usually a foot in the door to a bigger conversation about linux if they are interested :)
[14:23] <detrate> that's nice of you scott-work
[14:23] <scott-work> i like the recursive screen shot  - that's awesome
[14:23] <detrate> inspire your neighbors and they'll inspire you back :)
[14:23] <scott-work> hell, these are engineers, i'm hoping they'll become devs!   :D
[14:23] <detrate> ;-P
[14:23] <scott-work> kidding again
[14:24] <detrate> one of the least computer savvy people I put on ubuntu has drastically changed my workflow because of a feature they asked about
[14:24] <scott-work> i'm not doing it every week (i can't afford that!) and it's limited to finding a really good deal on surplus computers
[14:25] <detrate> I've switched from the compiz cube to manage my virutal desktops to the grid view which I activate with hot corners on my monitors
[14:25] <scott-work> but my baseline is really low...seriously, a P4, 2.3ghz with 2gigs of memory works surprisingly well for Studio
[14:25] <detrate> scott-work: have you thought about scalability?
[14:25] <detrate> because you may be limiting yourself going with a p4
[14:25] <scott-work> detrate: is that like gnome shell 3.0?
[14:25] <detrate> scott-work: no, compiz, gnome-shell BREAKS compiz
[14:25] <detrate> so I'll sooner ditch gnome than compiz
[14:25] <detrate> well unless kwin fixes their dual monitor issues
[14:26] <detrate> because kwin is pretty slick
[14:26] <scott-work> i meant the grid...i've seen pictures of gnome 3.0 which shows all screens in the grid
[14:26] <detrate> yes, it's a similar idea, I have screenshots
[14:26] <detrate> hold on
[14:27] <scott-work> for scalability, these are individual guys at home, recording themselves and multitracking, maybe record hydrogen drums along with themselves and singing at most
[14:27] <scott-work> BUT, it gets them involved, i've done all the hard work and i'll show them how to use it
[14:28] <scott-work> i expect to hear, "Wow!  It's awesome and much easier to use than I thought!  I wish I had done this sooner."
[14:28] <detrate> http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/x5ergsokyi9jsxq4rsi.png << this is the grid view
[14:28] <detrate> I think it's called "expo"
[14:28] <detrate> in compiz
[14:29] <detrate> what I meant on scalability is that you should consider going dual core with a motherboard that supports quadcore
[14:29] <scott-work> ah, i gotcha...for *my* next computer I shall
[14:29] <scott-work> i'll probably go quad anyways
[14:29] <detrate> those boards will likely support up to 8-16gb of RAM as well, so the user will be able to keep that computer going for a while
[14:29] <scott-work> but for these freebies for other people i'll go cheap
[14:30] <detrate> well, if you're looking to build on a budget
[14:30] <detrate> using a similar setup I built some client machines for ~$350
[14:30] <detrate> that was starting with 4gb of ram and a dualcore
[14:30] <detrate> and 2gb of ram was only ~$50
[14:30] <scott-work> maybe they'll even buy their own computer because they want dual/quad core and i'll get my computer back to give to someone else ;)
[14:31] <scott-work> yeah, really the prices are so low these days
[14:33]  * persia saw a 1.4GHz/1GB/40GB computer today selling for ￥800
[14:33] <detrate> maybe document in the wiki basic setups for computers, example setups maybe even link to newegg wishlists
[14:33] <persia> I believe that's something like $10, and it was retail in a store, not some garage sale.
[14:33] <detrate> hehe ^_^
[14:33] <detrate> they have cellphones with twice that power in japan
[14:34] <detrate> okay, maybe not
[14:35] <detrate> but soon
[14:35] <scott-work> yeah, but shipping would be really expensive to get it to Texas, USA persia :P
[14:35] <persia> Have had them for a while.
[14:35] <persia> I *have* a phone I bought almost two years ago that's about that powerful.
[14:36] <persia> (same HD size, same memory, 1.2GHz proc)
[14:36] <detrate> ahh, this is the best one I know, granted I haven't done that much research http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/
[14:36] <persia> scott-work: Probably.  That was a mid-size tower :)
[14:36] <scott-work> lol
[14:36] <persia> That's not all that powerful, really.  It's nice, but it's moderate.  Also, Nokia stopped seilling stuff in the Japanese market.
[14:37] <scott-work> dan from linux outlaws has a 900 and he likes it tremendously i believe
[14:37] <detrate> whhhat? why did they stop?
[14:37] <scott-work> why persia
[14:37] <persia> And, at least for me, "best" != "most powerful" for phones.  That phone (which also has a 1024x600 display, etc.) is much heavier than I can put up with putting in my pocket all the time
[14:38] <detrate> I settled for an iphone but I'd like a maemo linux phone ;-P
[14:38] <persia> Their products sold badly here.  Their product cycle was so long that their products were usually considered outdated, and they almsot never introduced any new or interesting features compared with competing products.
[14:38] <detrate> but my carrier doesn't really believe in freedom
[14:39] <detrate> it's business here, they want you to buy from their content delivery network
[14:39] <scott-work> my wife wanted iphones, i wanted droid - we visited both stores, the verizon guys were so rude and arrogant my wife refused droid -> we have iphones
[14:39] <detrate> even the most basic of phones I've received from my carrier, they make the main button try and get you into their store to buy crap
[14:40] <detrate> yeah, you don't want a droid right now anyway
[14:40] <scott-work> i have found the iphone to be useful, in a freedom hating way :P
[14:40] <scott-work> why
[14:40] <detrate> I have 2 people that are looking to get rid of theres
[14:40] <persia> Carriers here all hard-lock every phone.  There is no switching.
[14:40] <detrate> well, maybe it's just their phone version
[14:40] <detrate> motorolla g1 I believe
[14:41] <persia> But the product cycle is about 3 months, and extremely competitive, so there's never that long before each carrier has what one wants.
[14:41] <scott-work> heh
[14:41] <persia> Even so, all *7* carriers compete madly to have new cool features before the other ones (even if only by a couple weeks).
[14:42] <scott-work> and we complain about a 6 month release cycle
[14:42] <detrate> :-P
[14:42] <scott-work> i can't imagine that kind of pressure
[14:44] <scott-work> persia: i have seen several mentions of subdiving the audio submenu into further categorical submenu based on function, do you have a particular feeling about this?
[14:48] <persia> I think the right way to do it is to review http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html, extend it if necessary, and then have the menu generation tool create more submenus *if* greater than some number (e.g. 7) items would appear in a list.
[14:49] <persia> So "Sound and Video" might turn into "Sound" and "Video", and then further break down, depending on how much is installed for a given user.
[14:53] <scott-work> i was thinking of dividing the sound/video menu as well...3 menu levels is that max i like, but 2 is really the comfortable maximum
[14:53] <persia> I don't think any static model works.
[14:54] <persia> Otherwise users will complain "How come my menus are so nested when I only have 1 item in lots of places" and other users will complain "I have too many items in the quux menu".
[14:54] <scott-work> i didn't mean in a static sense, i meant more in a useability sense
[14:55] <persia> If we do it dymanically, the first thing will never happen, and the response to the second is "Well, those are the freedesktop.org categories.  Do you have suggestions for how to break down better?  Please file a bug."
[14:56] <scott-work> you mentioned a "menu generation tool" - what is this tool and how would one find it/apply it?
[14:56] <scott-work> i ask that because our menu doesn't seem to automatically assign new applications correctly
[14:56] <scott-work> i've seen it all go under audio
[14:57] <scott-work> perhaps it's my application methodology
[14:57] <scott-work> application = verb
[14:58] <persia> gnome-menu is an example of a menu generation tool.
[14:58] <persia> It's informed by the configuration in /etc/xdg/menu and things referenced from there.
[14:59] <persia> If you want the details of how implementations *should* behave, check the spec from which I pasted the appendix link :)
[15:01] <scott-work> i have perused it, but i didn't see anything about the mechanics of how Ubuntu might apply these, rather just how it is applied
[15:01] <persia> THe spec only says how it's supposed to work.
[15:01] <scott-work> is the menu like an interpretive language and not static?
[15:01] <persia> The impementation for GNOME is gnome-menus.
[15:01] <scott-work> okay, i'll look up gnome-menus and see if that answers my question
[15:01] <persia> Ubuntu Studio has additionally ubuntustudio-menus which modifies the configuration.
[15:02] <scott-work> right, i've done work on ubuntustudio-menu, which is a bit of a mess, and this is the impetus to the question
[15:04] <persia> Fixing all the categories, and making sure gnome-menus does the right thing is the better solution.
[15:04] <persia> For an example of how it *should* work, install gnome-games and inspect the menu.  Then install sgt-puzzles, and look at it again.
[15:05] <scott-work> sorry, i'm dense sometimes, rather i have a bias towards certain answers, my apologies
[15:05] <scott-work> you are saying fix the categories and let it work like it should and it will fix the problem
[15:06] <scott-work> i wasn't suggesting making the menu static with menu entries to force applications in certain menus/submenus
[15:07] <scott-work> i was advocating removing audiovideo as a category and letting it go back into separate audio and video menus
[15:07] <persia> Right.  ubuntustudio-menu does the static forcing now, which I consider a (minor) bug, but it's lots less work than trying to fix it correctly.
[15:08] <persia> I've not done a full review, but I suspect that fixing it correctly may require changes to the spec.
[15:08] <persia> And I strongly suspect it means some refactoring of how gnome-menus configuration is shipped, so it can be overridden (or else changing it for everyone).
[15:09] <scott-work> this may be moot if we limit the scope of Ubuntu Studio but I had wanted to talk to you about this before and I do like to learn
[15:09] <persia> I don't think it's moot.
[15:10] <persia> It's a problem worth solving in general.
[15:10] <scott-work> and the "static forcing" vs gnome-menu is the part that confused me, apparently two different methodologies and i wasn't sure which was the deviation from nominal
[15:11] <scott-work> well, i meant moot as in we may not be forced to address it
[15:11] <persia> gnome-menus as an implementation of the specification leaves something to be desired.
[15:11] <persia> It adds some bits, and hardcodes some bits, and mangles some bits.
[15:11] <persia> ubuntustudio-menu layers more mangling and hardcoding on top of that.
[15:11] <scott-work> yes, that helps me tremendously   (that is a serious statement, not facetious by any means)
[15:12] <persia> We're definitely not forced to address it, but it would be a net gain for everyone if we found a way to do it cleanly.
[17:42] <scott-work> troy_s: i'm still working through the logs of the other night's discussion - you said at one point, "There is one of the most prolific and stoundout audio reps here with _deep_ knowledge of it."
[17:42] <scott-work> Of whom were you speaking?
[17:43] <troy_s> scott-work: crimsun. Strictly in terms of his long term sustained contribution to audio in Debian / Ubuntu. Google around.
[17:44] <scott-work> i shall, thanks!
[17:44] <troy_s> scott-work: There are a couple others too, but I was merely giving an example of the type of person.
[17:44] <scott-work> i'm kinda embarassed to admit that i know next to nothing about him
[17:44] <scott-work> he's not active on this channel and therefore not in my immediate attention
[19:12] <ScottL> hi abogani tonight i write a wiki page for you notes on the kernel, sorry it's taken a while to get to this point
[19:24] <ScottL> perisa, i was thinking on the way home from work about limiting scope to primarily audio
[19:24] <ScottL> removing any video/graphics applications risks losing *some* users (even with offering meta-packages)
[19:25] <ScottL> it would behoove us to make sure the effect actually increases the user base
[19:38] <detrate> I'm not so sure about that
[19:39] <detrate> I probalby wouldn't be here if art wasn't involved, I'm just recently getting into creating music
[19:39] <detrate> and are the applications for graphics/video really that much to add?
[19:39] <detrate> I've almost come to accept that GIMP is on all linux desktops :-P
[19:41] <ScottL> sorry, i'm didn't mean to suggest that we remove *all* video/graphical applications, but just keep a minimum amount that serve needs
[19:41] <holstein> for graphics, is there set-up issues like there are for audio?
[19:42] <holstein> seems like for the audio proffessional, having the RT kernel installed and permissions set-up could be very handy
[19:42] <detrate> I'd think for graphics the main applications people would want would be GIMP, Inkscape and image magick, perhaps some pallete programs / screenshot programs
[19:43] <detrate> I'd actually go as far to say the image view should be replaced with something more robust.  I think gThumb is more powerful than Eye of GNOME.  It can be configured to work just like eog as well.
[19:47] <detrate> s/view/viewer/
[20:15] <ScottL> not to sound like troy.s but do these applications support our target audience?
[20:48] <detrate> well you advertise them on the website currently... so I'd hope so
[20:48] <detrate> the gthumb suggestion is just a matter of efficiency
[20:55] <ScottL> hehe, well we may be changing the website pretty dramatically after we define the audience ;)
[20:56]  * ScottL and family are going to crawfish boil
[20:56] <detrate> Well, I really hope you don't cut out the other creators
[20:57] <detrate> I understand audio is your primary focus but I don't know if there is a big gain in not adding the essential art programs.
[20:57] <detrate> I don't think they'll save you enough space to get down to cd size
[21:05] <detrate> wow, I just tried synfig for the first time, feels pretty solid