[11:36] <brianherman_home> i miss categorized a bunch of docs
[11:37] <brianherman_home> how do i change the category
[11:37] <brianherman_home> is it just at the bottom?
[19:59] <philbull> hi guys
[19:59] <mdke> evening all
[20:01] <mdke> anyone else around?
[20:02] <philbull> i see quite a few lurkers
[20:03] <mdke> let's wait a couple of minutes and see who pops up
[20:05] <philbull> is there an agenda?
[20:05] <mdke> I just added a kind of basic agenda earlier, but nothing specific
[20:05] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[20:06] <mdke> feel free to add points
[20:08] <philbull> ok, shall we begin?
[20:08] <mdke> guess so :)
[20:08] <mdke> any lurkers arrived?
[20:08] <Pendulum> for the record, I'm here, but I'm new and haven't done anything for the doc team yet
[20:08] <mdke> Pendulum: great, welcome aboard
[20:09] <mdke> philbull: you wanna chair?
[20:09] <philbull> can do
[20:09] <philbull> First on the agenda:
[20:09] <philbull> Lucid post-release plans
[20:09] <philbull> what are they?
[20:10] <mdke> we've discussed a little bit with the translators about a fairly quick post-release release
[20:10]  * mdke goes to get the link
[20:10] <mdke> basically, the idea was to fix a few bugs quickly after release, give the translators a bit of time to update the translations, and roll a new upload around early June
[20:11] <philbull> sounds good
[20:11] <mdke> my proposal was here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2010-April/003492.html
[20:11] <philbull> this is an lts release after all
[20:11] <mdke> the plan was originally to add a bit of material for Ubuntu Music Store, but we can also fix other bugs
[20:12] <philbull> Did we handle all of the late UI changes this release?
[20:12] <philbull> I caught a couple
[20:13] <mdke> I'm not sure, there were quite a few
[20:13] <mdke> I can't immediately think of any big bugs, except for the one about the offline startpage having the wrong logo
[20:13] <mdke> but i'd encourage anyone who finds bugs which they think should be fixed in lucid to nominate them and to raise them on the mailing list
[20:15] <philbull> OK, so i guess the most pressing issue is timeframe
[20:15] <philbull> I assume we'll work in the Lucid branch for these updates
[20:15] <philbull> when do we freeze, and when do we push the release?
[20:16] <mdke> I think we should give the translators 3-4 weeks, but otherwise I don't mind about timing
[20:16] <philbull> If we give it 2-3 weeks after the release, to give people chance to report bugs
[20:17] <philbull> then we fix everything, freeze, and give the translators a month
[20:17] <mdke> I think that's about right
[20:17] <philbull> So, approximately, that's freeze on, say, 17 May
[20:18] <mdke> heh, was typing the identical date
[20:18] <philbull> Release on 14 June?
[20:18] <mdke> realistically the release will be a weekend :) So call it translators stop on 11 June, upload on 12-13 June
[20:19] <philbull> Yep, sounds fine
[20:19] <mdke> the SRU process will take a bit after that I guess before it actually goes live
[20:19] <philbull> That's fine. All that matters is we get it out of our hands...
[20:19] <philbull> Unless there are any objections, I'll note this down as an action item
[20:19] <mdke> cool, thanks
[20:20] <mdke> any other lurkers appeared in the meantime?
[20:20] <philbull> ACTION: Mail the list (+translators) with a timeline for a post-Lucid ubuntu-docs release
[20:21] <philbull> OK, quiet tonight!
[20:21] <philbull> Next agenda item?
[20:21] <mdke> yeah :(
[20:22] <philbull> Plans for Maverick
[20:22] <mattgriffin> hi guys. i'm here as well :)
[20:22] <mdke> yay!
[20:22] <philbull> hey mattgriffin
[20:22] <mattgriffin> hey... sorry got distracted with work and a baseball game
[20:23] <philbull> I guess my first plan is to get some Mallard docs ready for testing. Soon.
[20:24] <mdke> from a ubuntu-docs pov, do you think we will be working with Gnome docs in this release, or do you think we should focus on the same structure we have now for maverick?
[20:24] <mdke> >_<
[20:25] <mdke> wb philbull
[20:25] <philbull> sorry, I'm back
[20:25] <mdke> my thinking is that this depends a lot on how quickly Gnome documentation starts to
[20:25] <mdke> develop
[20:25] <philbull> Yes.
[20:25] <mdke> from a ubuntu-docs pov, do you think we will be working with Gnome docs in this release, or do you think we should focus on the same structure we have now for maverick?
[20:25] <philbull> I think we should push on with the GNOME docs
[20:25] <philbull> we need to help upstream
[20:25]  * mdke nods
[20:26] <philbull> because, at the moment, we sort of *are* upstream
[20:26] <mdke> so should we also be looking at changing our own documents at all at this stage, or focus on upstream contribution?
[20:26] <philbull> I'll have loads more time to work on the GNOME desktop help in about a month
[20:26] <philbull> we should focus on upstream contribution
[20:26] <philbull> If we get the upstream stuff right, ubuntu-docs itself will be much smaller
[20:26] <mdke> that makes sense to me
[20:27] <philbull> we'll have a lot less to do ourselves, since GNOME will cover the majority of what we need to cover
[20:27] <philbull> So far, there are only really a couple of people working on the GNOME desktop help
[20:27] <mdke> I'm just concerned that Gnome desktop help won't be ready for maverick... but I suppose that if it isn't, we can just assess that mid-cycle and if necessary ship what we have now
[20:28] <philbull> I don't think there's any issue with it not being ready
[20:28] <philbull> I'll just do it all if I have to!
[20:28] <mdke> hah
[20:28] <mdke> ok, you're on
[20:28] <philbull> (I have quite a long summer this time round)
[20:28] <philbull> it would be great to get people involved, though
[20:29] <mdke> definitely
[20:29] <philbull> we should advertise more and set up some sort of structure to get people working on it
[20:29] <philbull> I just don't have time for that ATM though
[20:29] <mdke> we could use launchpad+bzr I suppose to allow people to create patches on upstream git if they feel more comfortable with bzr?
[20:29] <philbull> It doesn't even need to be that complicated
[20:30] <Pendulum> I'm about to quit my job so will have quite a bit of time to help out, but I'm also very much non-technical and not really sure the best place to start
[20:30] <philbull> Plain text submissions via email are fine at this stage
[20:30] <mdke> Pendulum: we can definitely help you along
[20:30] <philbull> Pendulum: being non-technical is fine
[20:30] <philbull> the most important thing is writing well
[20:31] <mdke> philbull: ok. Maybe a wiki then with the structure that is set up, so that people can just fill in the blanks
[20:31] <philbull> Yes
[20:31] <mdke> we can leave that up to Gnome to decide how best to arrange contributions
[20:31] <philbull> (OK, in this sense, Gnome=me)
[20:31] <mdke> aren't the others working on this?
[20:32] <philbull> Milo is, AFAIK
[20:32] <philbull> Shaun is very busy with Yelp etc
[20:32] <mdke> Gwaihir: you're lurking!
[20:32] <mdke> right
[20:32] <mdke> well I haven't learned Mallard yet
[20:32] <philbull> I don't know about Paul, but he's normally doing marketing stuff
[20:32] <Gwaihir> oops.. forgot there was a meeting here... :(
[20:32] <philbull> mdke: nothing to learn!
[20:32] <mdke> I was wondering whether the Rhythmbox manual might be a good place to start
[20:32]  * Gwaihir goes and read the backlog
[20:33] <philbull> aren't people already working on the RB manual?
[20:33] <mdke> dunno, maybe
[20:33] <philbull> we have an outline of topics for the desktop help
[20:33] <philbull> I think that will be a good place to start
[20:34] <philbull> I already have someone (Cristopher) working on part of it
[20:34] <mdke> off list?
[20:34] <philbull> yes
[20:34] <Gwaihir> philbull, somebody is already working on RB manual?
[20:34] <philbull> Gwaihir: I don't know
[20:34] <mdke> bring it on the list and others will get involved too, I think
[20:34] <philbull> do we have a list for this sort of thing?
[20:34] <philbull> mdke: sure
[20:35] <philbull> (todo list)
[20:36] <philbull> OK, I think that's an action item
[20:36] <philbull> ACTION: Publish list of Mallard documents for people to work on
[20:36] <mdke> any news of KDE adoption?
[20:36] <mdke> nixternal: here?
[20:38] <philbull> OK, we can park that
[20:38] <philbull> Getting the GNOME desktop help finished is my #1 priority
[20:39] <mdke> is the topic outline complete now?
[20:39] <philbull> Only for a couple of topic areas
[20:39] <philbull> there's plenty to work on, though
[20:39] <philbull> we want to finish a couple of areas first so we know what we're doing
[20:39] <philbull> Here you go:
[20:39] <philbull> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2010-March/msg00121.html
[20:39] <mdke> ok
[20:40] <mdke> yeah I saw that
[20:40] <philbull> I'll set up a wiki page for completion status
[20:41] <philbull> OK, next up: Installation guide?
[20:41] <philbull> The Ubuntu manual guys have a chapter on this
[20:41] <philbull> we can use that, with appropriate edits
[20:43] <mdke> ok
[20:44] <philbull> I'm back
[20:44] <philbull> Lucid updates killing my wireless
[20:46] <philbull> OK, where were we?
[20:46] <philbull> Are there any objections to using the Ubuntu manual's installation chapter?
[20:46] <mdke> not here, but I haven't read it
[20:47] <philbull> last time I saw it it looked fine
[20:47] <philbull> I'd just like to edit it to remove some of the more technical language
[20:47] <philbull> It would be great if someone volunteered to work on this
[20:48] <philbull> it's a 1-2 person job
[20:48] <mdke> I would post to the mailing list and see who volunteers. you might even get someone from the manual project volunteering to help out
[20:48] <philbull> Yep, sounds like a plan
[20:48] <philbull> ACTION: Ask for volunteer to create installation guide out of Ubuntu manual material
[20:49] <philbull> We have about 10 mins before I need to head off
[20:49] <philbull> Are there any other pressing matters?
[20:49] <philbull> (We're a bit low on people in attendance I guess)
[20:50] <mdke> nothing from me
[20:50] <philbull> The only other thing I've been thinking about is rationalising the sound documentation
[20:51] <philbull> We have loads of troubleshooting advice for sound problems spread all over the wiki and forums
[20:51] <philbull> It would be good to collect it and make some sort of structured troubleshooter out of it
[20:51] <mdke> that would be very useful
[20:52] <philbull> (ditto for printing and wireless, but one thing at a time)
[20:52] <mdke> sound is a common issue
[20:52] <philbull> It would be nice to have a brainstorming session some time
[20:52] <philbull> Build up a list of common problems, match them up to solutions
[20:53] <philbull> figure out easy diagnostic steps
[20:53] <mdke> it's also quite a tricky technical issue, I suspect we might need some input from developers
[20:53] <philbull> yes
[20:53] <philbull> it would be good to discuss this at UDS, but I'm not going...
[20:54] <philbull> I'll ask on the list
[20:54] <mdke> good plan
[20:54] <philbull> ACTION: Float the idea of a sound troubleshooter on the list
[20:54] <philbull> On last thing
[20:55] <philbull> Working with the Canonical user experience guys
[20:55] <philbull> I want to get a small collection of user personas writtem
[20:55] <philbull> ^written
[20:55] <mdke> as I understand it, they haven't yet done much user testing that will be useful to us
[20:55] <mdke> but that might change in the next 6 months, I guess
[20:56] <philbull> I'm interesting in getting them to work with us
[20:56] <philbull> we need people in other teams to talk to us more
[20:57] <philbull> I think this is something to raise at UDS
[20:57] <philbull> I'll be attending remotely
[20:57] <mdke> ok
[20:57] <philbull> OK, anything else, or shall I go and make a cup of tea?
[20:57] <mdke> sounds good :)
[20:57] <mdke> thanks for chairing
[20:57] <philbull> heh, that's OK
[20:57] <mdke> let's schedule another meeting again soon
[20:58] <philbull> thanks for turning up!
[20:58] <philbull> mdke: yes, good plan
[20:58] <philbull> I'll work through my action items in a bit
[20:58] <mdke> I'll take the one about lucid-updates
[20:58] <philbull> Sure
[20:59] <mattgriffin> mdke: if you need any help with the lucid updates, please ping me
[20:59] <mattgriffin> mdke: but not until after next thurs ;)
[20:59] <mdke> mattgriffin: cool. Actually I've just pushed the material which I had added to our maverick branch to our lucid branch
[20:59] <philbull> Oh, for the guys who're watching: if you're interested in contributing, please email the mailing list, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
[20:59] <mattgriffin> mdke: cool
[20:59] <philbull> we'll help you to get started
[21:00] <mdke> mattgriffin: it would be good to get some proper Ubuntu One help up and running for maverick
[21:00] <mdke> starting with the online material that you have we should be able to create some onboard system help
[21:00] <mattgriffin> mdke: cool
[21:01] <philbull> OK, I'm going to head off now
[21:01] <philbull> thanks for coming everyone!
[21:01] <mdke> mattgriffin: and moving the online stuff to the right website :)
[21:01] <mdke> philbull: thanks
[21:01] <mattgriffin> mdke: :)
[21:05] <mdke> Gwaihir: searching my email, the only stuff I can find about rhythmbox help is between you and Jim - I take it that didn't go anywhere?
[21:05] <Gwaihir> nope, Jim hadn't time and even did I, I plan on resuscitate that one in this period
[21:06] <mdke> ok, I'd like to help with this too
[21:06] <Gwaihir> I need to coordinate with the RB guys though, 'cause they don't follow any release schedule to my knowledge
[21:06] <mdke> I think we can get a structure and most of the material based on the current version I think
[21:07] <mdke> then update if they release again
[21:07] <Gwaihir> if we are lucky they should release one around september, so that gives us quite some time
[21:07] <mdke> how do you test Gnome? is there an easy to use live cd which is vanilla Gnome?
[21:07] <Gwaihir> I'll try to kickstart that this week first writing to the RB dev list and hear from them
[21:07] <Gwaihir> there should be the Foresight distro
[21:08] <Gwaihir> that is 99.9% upstream
[21:08] <mdke> ok
[21:08] <mdke> I need to learn how to use git as well
[21:09] <Gwaihir> it's not that difficult, you only need to get used to it
[21:09] <Gwaihir> like any other tools
[21:09] <mdke> guess so
[21:09] <mdke> well I guess there will be plenty of planning to do before git becomes necessary
[21:10] <Gwaihir> yeah :)
[21:11] <Gwaihir> also, I would like to have an almost identical manual with banshee...
[21:11] <mdke> that sounds sensible, I haven't used banshee but I could start
[21:12] <Gwaihir> I know pcutler had been working on that... don't know if he had written it or not
[21:12] <Gwaihir> need to check out that too
[21:57] <mewshi> hi there!
[21:59] <mewshi> Just out of curiosity, is there any thing that I can do right now? :)
[21:59] <mdke> mewshi: yeah, lots! The best option is to hang out on the mailing list
[22:00] <mewshi> Ok :)
[22:00] <mdke> mewshi: there are three emails from this evening from PhilBull about how people can contribute over the next release cycle
[22:01] <mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014731.html
[22:01] <mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014730.html
[22:01] <mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014729.html
[22:01] <mdke> mewshi: I don't know what you are interested in but we'll definitely appreciate any help you can give
[22:02] <mewshi> I used to have a job doing editing, is there anything that needs edited? :3
[22:03] <mdke> you can certainly help by reviewing the documentation that we have any reporting bugs or making patches
[22:03] <mdke> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation for more info
[22:06] <mewshi> How do I get a hold of the person to express interest in doing the installation guide? >.>
[22:07] <mdke> mewshi: just reply to that email on the list :)
[22:10] <mewshi> how do I do that from the web? >.>
[22:10] <mewshi> I'm sorry, I'm not used to mailing list archives >.<
[22:11] <mdke> it's not possible from the ubuntu list website, but if you like you can do it from another website like Gmane
[22:11] <mdke> you can browse/reply from here - http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc
[22:11] <mewshi> Just send a message to the mailing list address?
[22:11] <mewshi> Will that work?
[22:12] <mdke> that will work but it wouldn't be a reply in that case, it will start a new thread. But if you don't like gmane, that will certainly do the trick. You'll need to subscribe to the mailing list first
[22:13] <mewshi> I already have :)
[22:13] <mdke> great
[22:19] <mewshi> Ok, I think I sent an e-mail to the list now, it's part introduction, part expression of interest in helping with the installation guide :)
[22:20] <mdke> sounds good
[22:20] <mdke> welcome aboard and look forwarding to seeing your work :)
[22:26] <mewshi> do you know of any wiki articles or anything that could be cleaned up or anything? :)
[22:37] <mewshi> Seriously, if there's anything I can do right now, tell me :)
[22:38] <mewshi> I have 3 hours of nothingness to look forward to otherwise
[22:47] <mewshi> mdke, you know of anything I can do right now?  Honestly, I'm very bored.
[22:48] <DarkwingDuck> mewshi: I believe there are some bugs already reported into ubuntu-docs that you could create patches for.
[22:48] <mewshi> Ok, and how do I do that?
[22:51] <DarkwingDuck> mewshi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs Look at the new ones...
[22:51] <DarkwingDuck> mewshi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam this will give you some guidance too
[22:52] <DarkwingDuck> mdke: You going to be able to make it to UDS?
[23:33]  * mewshi is terribly lost
[23:36] <mewshi> can someone please give me a good starting project and help me understand what I need to do?