[03:15] <ZykoticK9> When will !info in #ubuntu report Lucid packages by default?
[03:16] <nhandler> ZykoticK9: I believe it has already been updated to use lucid. I just tested it in PM
[03:21] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, at 22:13 "<ubottu> Package lamp-server does not exist in karmic" in #ubuntu -- yet PMing it now replies Lucid
[03:31] <nhandler> ZykoticK9: Hmm...I'm not sure. It responds using lucid by default in PM and in another channel. It also works fine if you specify lucid. I'll try and figure out what is going on for you
[03:31] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, i actually also tried apache2 in the channel a few moments after my initial post, which didn't return any version info
[03:32] <nhandler> ZykoticK9: It returned 21:16:42 < ubottu> apache2 (source: apache2): Apache HTTP Server metapackage. In component main, is optional. Version 2.2.12-1ubuntu2.2 (karmic), package size 1 kB, installed size 36 kB
[03:32] <nhandler> (that was in response to your !info command)
[03:34] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, no version info - Lucid Karmic etc
[03:37] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, could you do one more test in channel with lamp-server - could it be that unknown packages are returning karmic in the channel?
[03:38] <nhandler> ZykoticK9: That wouldn't explain why !info apache2 returned the karmic version.
[03:39] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, apache2 doesn't return karmic, it doesn't have a version (which I'm assuming is the new default for !info command)
[03:39] <nhandler> ZykoticK9: Yes it did. It returned "Version 2.2.12-1ubuntu2.2 (karmic)"
[03:40] <ZykoticK9> nhandler, sorry my mistake.  i see the reply in #ubuntu and it clearly says karmic.  sorry
[12:09] <erUSUL> !intelhda
[15:58] <Damascene> hi,
[15:58] <Damascene> have any one thought on making the support channel based on the problem kind?
[15:59] <Damascene> there is 1782 currently in #ubutnu and the chance of any one getting help is rare
[15:59] <tsimpson> Damascene: yes, see bug #392799
[15:59] <Damascene> that will help users to get specialized support
[15:59] <Damascene> ok
[16:10] <Damascene> is there a wiki page to sort the useful idea out of that bug report?
[16:12] <gnomefreak> what bug report. sorry if i missed something i just got here
[16:12] <Pici> bug #392799
[16:13] <gnomefreak> again it comes up
[16:13] <Pici> Its been a few months
[16:14] <gnomefreak> if its what im thinking of it is revisted every release
[16:14] <gnomefreak> it is
[16:14] <Damascene> I think that bug should be organized on a wiki page
[16:15] <Damascene> list advantage and disadvantage of every idea
[16:19] <gnomefreak> well i dont really see a good way of going about this. for example comment#2 is more noisy than it would be now. if in PM or channel. the php solutions would have to change every client eh
[16:21] <Pici> Some require a complete overhaul of IRC, thats not really something we can do
[16:22] <gnomefreak> i would say at best we set up a limit and use a overflow channel
[16:22] <gnomefreak> splitting #ubuntu into #ubuntu-
[16:22] <gnomefreak> * is not helpful ort organized
[16:22] <bazhang> and regular /advanced
[16:22] <k1l> i like the idea, that the main channel is a loadbalancer. like mentioned in comment#3
[16:23] <Pici> The problem is that every release we get more and more people idling in the channel.  We'd have to keep tweaking the limit
[16:24] <gnomefreak> well as it stands our IRC clients(GUI) join one ther the support channels. re routing people when they first log on is not the best way and if we move them to basic/medium/advanced it is still causing alot of noise there
[16:24] <Damascene> people who can help will be in both channels
[16:24] <Pici> Damascene: And a lot of people will ask their questions in both channels.
[16:24] <bazhang> well my issues are advanced
[16:26] <Damascene> as bazhang said. it might be based on the level of the question
[16:26] <gnomefreak> Damascene: if only it was that true
[16:27] <bazhang> Damascene, everyone will think their issues are advanced, whether true or not
[16:27] <gnomefreak> you now have people asking the same question in 3 + channels
[16:27] <Damascene> one day I've played trivia game on an irc channel. it asks questions and give you feedback
[16:27] <Damascene> that would be easy to do
[16:27] <gnomefreak> -1 @ having bot decide why pinging you
[16:28] <gnomefreak> playing 25 questions with bot -> user is more noise than what we have atm
[16:32] <gnomefreak> comment 44 so far looks the most reasonable but im not done reading
[16:35] <gnomefreak> any chance on this being brought up at a current meeting?
[16:38] <Pici> gnomefreak: add it to the agenda
[16:41]  * gnomefreak missed last meeting by an hour or so so im not sure how old the agenda is atm. I would also like an idea on this topic before i add it. i will think about it while im here and before i leave i should have an update for it
[16:44]  * gnomefreak goes for smoke a
[16:44] <gnomefreak> -a
[16:49] <gnomefreak> Pici: what if we started out small. for example having people join thier respective support channels kubuntu ubuntu xubuntu edubuntu ect...
[16:50] <gnomefreak> #ubuntu has been and still is a gerneal catchall
[16:50] <Pici> gnomefreak: I don't think that the channel needs to be split.  And turning it into a place where we just tell people to join elsewhere is not a solution to me.
[16:51] <gnomefreak> Pici: i can see that point but than why do we have all of them open? isnt it to get support by brand? xubuntu gets no where near the abount of people asking or helping that kubuntu gets and so on
[16:53] <Pici> gnomefreak: We usually end up pointing people to them when they have DE specific issues.
[16:53] <gnomefreak> 1794 isnt that much more than KK release
[16:57] <gnomefreak> i dont see any reason to split channels and never really did unless it is for an issue the highly advanced people should handle example #ubuntu-mozillateam
[16:57] <gnomefreak> by helping with alot of people our devel topics get lost
[16:57] <Damascene> maybe because you didn't try to ask question in the channel
[16:58] <gnomefreak> Damascene: what do you mena?
[16:58] <gnomefreak> mean
[16:59] <Damascene> "i dont see any reason to split channels"
[16:59] <gnomefreak> Damascene: i ask and support people in the channels, i know how bad it can get
[16:59] <Damascene> I just was in ubuntu-devel and some one came and asked about thinkpad problem
[17:00] <Damascene> I told him to go to #ubuntu knowing that he will get lost there
[17:00] <gnomefreak> Damascene: someone should have told him *-dev channels do not offer support
[17:00] <gnomefreak> why not send him to one of the other channels example #kubuntu users use thinkpads
[17:00] <gnomefreak> its not a s anoisey there
[17:00] <gnomefreak> as noisy
[17:02] <gnomefreak> fall backs we have: ubuntu forum channels (like 4 or 5 of them) not to mention the ubuntuforums site kubuntu xubuntu ect... there is a sound channel and so on. but breaking it down much more than that will just hurt more than it helps
[17:03] <gnomefreak> shuffling poeple around will in fact get them lost ;)
[17:03] <gnomefreak> people dont read topics so we cant really use that to do much with
[17:04] <Damascene> force them to do
[17:04] <Damascene> use voice
[17:04] <Damascene> bot
[17:04] <Damascene> what ever
[17:05] <bazhang> sounds like a tremendous amount of work
[17:05] <gnomefreak> i agree
[17:05] <bazhang> for essentially zero gain
[17:05] <gnomefreak> now you see why we havent changed it since it first came up with Dapper release
[17:05] <bazhang> yep
[17:06] <Damascene> could you get upstream help?
[17:07] <gnomefreak> no matter how i have looked at it i can not find a gerneally good solution. That is not even bringing into the ops as a factor
[17:07] <gnomefreak> upstream IRC help?
[17:07] <Damascene> no, package help
[17:07] <Damascene> like grub and xorg
[17:08] <gnomefreak> Damascene: sometimes but our packages dont meet upstreams packaging for a lot of them
[17:09] <gnomefreak> and lets say there are over 100000 channels in freenode, do we ship them all over the placve and have them return since they mention Ubuntu with thier question
[17:09] <gnomefreak> sort of like what Debian would do/does/or has done
[17:11] <gnomefreak> irssi help in #irssi is good no matter what distro you are using same with #smart but we dont have channels for everything and that is not ideal
[17:12] <Damascene> debian asks people to go to upstream channel?
[17:12] <gnomefreak> bazhang: Pici the idea of overflow channels i got from #freenode channel when it spills over, i couldnt recall where that came from
[17:12] <gnomefreak> Damascene: no they send ubuntu users to ubuntu channels
[17:13] <gnomefreak> not to mentoin you are only allowed a max of 20 channels to be in at once.
[17:14] <bazhang> 120
[17:14] <Damascene> usually the conversation goes between two or there people. having backup channel were you just invite people seems good idea
[17:14] <gnomefreak> bazhang: only if asked for
[17:14] <Damascene> *three
[17:14] <bazhang> gnomefreak, nope
[17:14] <Damascene> and leaving the main channel for new people
[17:14] <bazhang> new services is 120
[17:14] <gnomefreak> bazhang: i had to get +u IIRC
[17:14] <bazhang> on old services yes
[17:15] <gnomefreak> oh
[17:15] <bazhang> :)
[17:15]  * gnomefreak wonders how many channels each client will use before it blows up ;)
[17:15] <bazhang> way too much crossposting, and shuffling people between channels. a most inefficient use of resources
[17:16] <gnomefreak> right
[17:16] <bazhang> just dont /list :)
[17:16] <gnomefreak> ive done that once it wont ever hapen again
[17:16] <bazhang> plus if they get conflicting advice even more of a headache
[17:16]  * gnomefreak ignored the warning
[17:17] <Damascene> let me explain something.
[17:17] <bazhang> wait! person in ubuntu-regular told me this! (in -advanced)
[17:17] <gnomefreak> :)
[17:17] <bazhang> crosschannel confusion and crossposting mayhem
[17:18] <Damascene> let it be 3 channels. with some people from ubutnu on each. user put his problem in ubuntu pastebin go with it to the channel
[17:18] <gnomefreak> people are aware of the fact that just because we have ~1800 users in a channel that less than 1/4th of them are talking
[17:18] <Damascene> if he didn't do that no one looks at it
[17:18] <bazhang> if that
[17:18] <gnomefreak> Damascene: people dont know how to use pastebin
[17:18] <Damascene> if there is any useful information he just add it
[17:18] <bazhang> people do that now
[17:18] <Damascene> gnomefreak, teach them :)
[17:19] <tsimpson> Damascene: you want a forum ;)
[17:19] <gnomefreak> Damascene: we have been for many years
[17:19] <bazhang> crosspost to many channels, wait for 5 seconds, then repeat
[17:19] <tsimpson> it's exactly what you describe
[17:19] <bazhang> 'well I got no answer in channel x'
[17:19] <gnomefreak> if you want i can give you a list of the forum channels alo tof them are quite
[17:20] <bazhang> the helpers are in all or most of the channels as it is
[17:21] <bazhang> even -offtopic
[17:21] <gnomefreak> example of what you may be looking for in the way of channels #ubuntuforums @#ubuntuforums-beginners  #ubuntuforums-unanswered
[17:22]  * gnomefreak didnt know i had @ in them
[17:22] <bazhang> :0
[17:22] <gnomefreak> but either way they are pretty much quite and they can help just as much
[17:23] <gnomefreak> plus they know the posts to the forums :)
[17:23] <bazhang> many are admins of the forums iirc
[17:24]  * gnomefreak thinks that is the only good solution. there are some. i sign into my forums account once ever few months
[17:24] <gnomefreak> make one post and poof log out
[17:25] <bazhang> nine times out of ten, when waiting for answer on irc, a quick ubuntu issuehere leads to a ubuntuforums link
[17:25] <bazhang> err websearch
[17:26] <gnomefreak> almost any issue you can think of has been posted ojn ubuntuforums or another forum likje linuxusers
[17:26] <gnomefreak> like
[17:26]  * gnomefreak stopping coreccting my typos they are way too often now
[17:29] <gnomefreak> maybe we should post some of this to the bug report. but once again this has been going on since Dapper if not before and with Dapper unlesss there is a good idea on how to do this with very little disruption i dont see any reason this bug should be open.
[17:29] <Damascene> using a place were user can put information in is really useful. then user will present a link instead of asking the same question over and over
[17:29] <gnomefreak> key word -- disruption
[17:30] <gnomefreak> Damascene: please see ubuntuforums.com :) post there and give link to channel. it will be the same as it is now except more users on the forums will help you rather than channel
[17:31] <gnomefreak> m,ore people look at forums than that are on freenode
[17:32] <Damascene> freenode is more effective. you can get respond faster
[17:32] <Damascene> that sounds good any way
[17:33] <Damascene> it should be a small irc bug system
[17:33] <gnomefreak> Damascene: not always. but different people look at forums than IRC
[17:33] <bazhang> don't know about that; mailing lists and ubuntuforums get answered pretty darned quick
[17:33] <gnomefreak> forums is not and was never ment to replace IRC or vice versa it is strickly of a wider user base
[17:34] <Damascene> bug #33434
[17:34] <Damascene> see
[17:34] <Damascene> it should be something like that
[17:34] <Damascene> but problem #1
[17:34] <bazhang> #ubuntu ?
[17:34] <gnomefreak> that is a bug report.
[17:34] <Damascene> and you get information on it
[17:35]  * gnomefreak jumps on this train now that it has gone off the road
[17:35] <bazhang> used to be iirc
[17:35] <bazhang> then switched to development/unreleased channels only
[17:35] <gnomefreak> if by information you mean Invalid than yes works like it should
[17:36] <gnomefreak> ok ill be back not that i am lost. if all goes well
[17:36] <Damascene> I mean irc user should have a simple place to describe there problem in
[17:36] <Damascene> and they should be able to add info
[17:36] <Damascene> but it shouldn't be like a forum
[17:37] <Damascene> it's more like pastebin
[17:37] <bazhang> like ubuntu-bug?
[17:37] <Damascene> like bugs but simpler
[17:38] <bazhang> ?
[17:39] <Damascene> like a small forum you enter some information in. distro package
[17:39] <Damascene> type of the problem
[17:39] <Damascene> then you come to irc with that problem and people will be able to help you faster
[17:39] <bazhang> link forums and irc?
[17:39] <Damascene> not forum
[17:39] <Damascene> but that might work
[17:40] <bazhang> 'like a small forum'
[17:40] <Damascene> yes
[17:40] <Damascene> but no registration required
[17:40] <bazhang> google wave?
[17:40] <Damascene> and user should put some useful information there
[17:40] <Damascene> what is that?
[17:40] <bazhang> sounds like what you are proposing
[17:46] <Damascene> no it's not google wave
[17:46] <Damascene> it's just pastebin with some button to chose distribution and some other choice menu
[17:46] <Damascene> small bug system for irc and forum help
[17:47] <bazhang> replacing launchpad as well?
[17:47] <Damascene> :)
[17:47] <Damascene> lauchpad for software bugs
[17:47] <tsimpson> maybe you mean answers.launchpad.net ?
[17:47] <erUSUL> Damascene: i know what i do when people link me a pastebin or forum post; most of the time i ignore it
[17:47] <bazhang> the odds of that are between nil and zero
[17:47] <erUSUL> !here
[17:48] <Damascene> bazhang, what I'm suggesting is place were a place to gather some useful information so you get better help
[17:48] <Damascene> not bugs about software
[17:48] <bazhang> nice factoid :)
[17:49] <erUSUL> bazhang:  not mine ;)
[17:50] <Damascene> any one got my idea?
[17:51] <erUSUL> Damascene: i think, but as i said if someoen only do... please look here: « url » ; please please please; help me
[17:51] <erUSUL> Damascene: i will most likely ignore them
[17:51] <gnomefreak> wiki pages are there to help others if i am understanding you correctly
[17:51] <Damascene> erUSUL, I just brought an example
[17:52] <Damascene> user will only have to put
[17:52] <Damascene> problem #1
[17:52] <Damascene> like bug #1
[17:52] <erUSUL> Damascene: launchpad answers ?
[17:53] <Damascene> no
[17:53] <Damascene> a thing for irc
[17:53] <Damascene> simple and fast
[17:54] <Damascene> pastbin were you ask what ever in your mind
[17:54] <Damascene> if you open launchpad answer for that it will get double size in every day :)
[17:55] <gnomefreak> mailing lists?
[17:58] <erUSUL> Pici: nice post release blog post again ;) congrats
[17:59] <Damascene> gnomefreak, no
[18:00] <Damascene> oh my god. was me explanation too poor
[18:00] <Damascene> *my
[18:00] <gnomefreak> .:12:54:04:. <       Damascene > pastbin were you ask what ever in your mind
[18:00] <gnomefreak> ^^ not all that helpful
[18:00] <Damascene> :D
[18:02] <erUSUL> Damascene: what you describe is just too similar to already existing solutions ... imho
[18:03] <Damascene> not really
[18:03] <Damascene> there should be a bot for it like lauchpad one
[18:03] <Damascene> gives you pref information about it
[18:04] <erUSUL> Damascene: the metabot project of LjL was meant to attack this bug
[18:05] <Damascene> problem #3927
 user problem 3927 with grub "I get error number 13" [not answered,In progress] https://ircproblems.launchpad.net/392799
[18:06] <Damascene> the bot could give more information thought
[18:06] <gnomefreak> can do that in a channel as it defeats the purpose of too noisy thing
[18:06] <gnomefreak> s/can/cant
[18:08] <Damascene> maybe it another idea not related to the noisy thing :(
[18:08] <Damascene> :)
[18:08] <gnomefreak> doesnt matter if you or we thinks it is related as others will think it is
[18:09] <Damascene> it can help reducing the problem
[18:09] <bazhang> of noise?
[18:09] <Damascene> and it will help with splitting users based on problem type
[18:10] <gnomefreak> no it doesnt it adds to it
[18:10] <bazhang> exactly
[18:10] <Damascene> how could it add?
[18:10] <bazhang> many bot info spam
[18:11] <Damascene> brb
[18:11] <gnomefreak> Damascene: instead of users "a" saying this is my issue not user b"b does the same. for each users you now have 2 replies just from asking 1 thing
[18:11] <bazhang> thought the whole issue was 'too noisy, can't get help'
[18:11] <gnomefreak> person a =="this is issue" bot will than report that as well
[18:12] <bazhang> seems to completely remove the human element from irc
[18:12] <gnomefreak> we have a bot channel please feel free to play
[18:13] <gnomefreak> oops pretend that was a bot reply
[18:15] <gnomefreak> oh and if we do that than others may want us to add ubuntuforums to bot as well
[18:26] <Pici> erUSUL: what?
[18:26] <erUSUL> Silent number is not your blog ?
[18:26] <Pici> nope
[18:26] <Pici> http://nullcortex.com
[18:27] <Pici> And I didn't finish writing mine.
[18:27]  * erUSUL ouch
[19:20] <erUSUL> !buttons
[19:23] <Pici> !controls
[19:23] <Pici> erUSUL: ^^
[19:23] <erUSUL> Pici: tyvm
[20:08] <AcePreshaw> ikonia