[00:02]  * cratylus is back.
[00:02] <cratylus> JanC apologies for that still getting the hang of this client
[00:02] <cratylus> will fix now
[00:05] <Hutley> where can i get the logs of classroom?
[00:05] <Hutley> heheh. i found. sorry the stupid question
[11:47] <ALdaperan> hello
[12:00] <sirmacik> Hi class [;
[16:00] <YokoZar> Hello hello
[16:01] <YokoZar> Good morning everybody, it's time to start the second day of Ubuntu Open Week
[16:02] <YokoZar> (08:02:41 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: afternoon here, plus in UTC, which is the time zone Open Week is going by :D
[16:02] <YokoZar> As sebsebseb has pointed out, there are in fact other time zones than mine.
[16:03] <YokoZar> I promise to use this information for good rather than evil
[16:04] <YokoZar> Now, this is meant to be mostly a Q+A session, as in the past I have received more than enough questions to cover an entire hour.  Today's topic is Wine, and I've been Ubuntu's "Wine guy" from pretty much the start.
[16:05] <YokoZar> Wine, to give a brief summary, is the program that lets you run Windows applications on Ubuntu.  Or, the way I like to think of it, once a program works in Wine it's no longer a Windows application, but rather just a plain old application that works in Ubuntu as well :)
[16:07] <YokoZar> (08:06:49 AM) johnsgruber: QUESTION: Is it possible, and safe to run something like quicken or Itunes under wine. Those are the two reasons I have to boot windows
[16:08] <YokoZar> There are two questions here, but they go together.  As a general rule, the worst thing Wine can do when it attempts to run an App is not work.  So if you want to know if you can run a program, it doesn't hurt anything other than your time to try it out
[16:09] <YokoZar> But there are likely many others who have tested the app before.  If one of them is really nice, they'll have made a recent test entry in Wine's application database (http://appdb.winehq.org/) that you can read.
[16:10] <YokoZar> The Wine project is always looking for people who can provide more recent test results.  We're also very keen on knowing if an application stops working as well as it did in the past (a "regression"), as it's much easier to fix them when they're caught quickly
[16:11] <YokoZar> As far as how well iTunes and Quicken work, I would suggest checking the AppDB as it depends on which version of Quicken and/or iTunes.  Both applications are major targets of Wine developers and get worked on a lot, however iTunes in particular uses a lot of "weird" parts of the Windows API and has been a huge effort to get working.
[16:11] <YokoZar> (08:07:12 AM) sirmacik: QUESTION: Are You adding many changes/patches to the wine package on ubuntu? What they are changing in it?
[16:13] <YokoZar> I like to keep the Wine package as close to upstream as possible, however there will be a growing difference in later releases.  The reason is that Wine's upstream consists of the "pure" Wine with hardly any interface - the Applications->Browse C: Drive link you see in the package, for instance, originates in Ubuntu
[16:14] <YokoZar> I will also be merging in (and providing my own code for) another upstream project called Vineyard, which I roughly designed a couple years back and was ultimately coded by Christian Dannie Stroggard.  Hopefully I'll have a demo of this ready by the Ubuntu Developer Summit.  I was originally planning to include it with Wine1.2, however that was not released in time for Lucid
[16:15] <YokoZar> Consequently, Lucid Wine looks very similar to Karmic Wine, except it's a newer Wine release and refuses to run executables that don't have the execute bit set (more on this later)
[16:16] <YokoZar> (08:07:45 AM) Nagz: QUESTION: Will the newly working iPhone/iPod access work with iTunes/wine ?
[16:17] <YokoZar> By this I assume you're talking about the ability to access iPods and iPhones in programs like rhythmbox for music.  This does not affect Wine, as Wine can't use that interface to talk to the iPhones because the programs it runs that do it (namely iTunes) use a different method
[16:17] <YokoZar> What Wine needs to do that is code for a USB driver - then any arbitrary USB device that a Windows app needed to talk to would work (like iTunes)
[16:17] <YokoZar> This is different from certain standard USB devices like keyboards and USB sticks, which already work in Wine
[16:18] <YokoZar> It's a good example of two seemingly unrelated things (like, say, iTunes+iPods and a program that uses a USB license-key dongle) both needing the same underlying Wine component to work.
[16:19] <YokoZar> There used to be a bit of a joke race between Wine and Songbird about who could access iPods first, but they've both lost ;)
[16:19] <YokoZar> (08:08:35 AM) gquigs: QUESTION: I want to package some applications (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/387753) that use wine, is their a guide to help me do it?
[16:20] <YokoZar> No not yet, however you can ask me personally and we'll work on this together.  I've done it before as a prototype, and there are several ways to do it.  I'm quite keen to have more Wine-powered applications in the repository.
[16:22] <YokoZar> If it's a free software application then we can also attempt to get it building under winelib, which would make things much easier in the future.  Compiling from source is always nice anyway, however there is also work on porting Wine to ARM, and any winelib-based port would be able to start working on ARM without much additional effort -- even though Windows doesn't run on ARM at all!
[16:22] <YokoZar> *not technically true, since Windows Mobile has an ARM version and the Windows Mobile API is very similar to Win32
[16:23] <YokoZar> (08:08:37 AM) freckle: QUESTION: is there plans to make buisness apps like Sage Line 500 run well under wine. Currently there are issues with paging screens.
[16:24] <YokoZar> So it's a little vague if I say that "all apps are supposed to work in Wine", but in a way it's accurate.  Wine is developed with the principle of doing the "right" thing, ie exactly what Windows does.  If a program isn't working it's because Wine developers have either not implemented a Windows function it's using or they've done it incorrectly.
[16:25] <YokoZar> The former is usually a FIXME: warning if you run Wine in the terminal, and the latter is either an ERR: message or just weird behavior
[16:26] <YokoZar> Regardless, any program not doing what it's supposed to be doing is a legitimate bug report to file at winehq.org, and if the fix is easy enough to do it can happen very quickly
[16:26] <YokoZar> That said, Wine developers do target specific apps to try and get working first.
[16:27] <YokoZar> Generally these applications are Codeweavers' supported applications (~80% of Wine development is paid Codeweavers staff), however there's also a lot of community patches, especially for popular programs.
[16:27] <YokoZar> (08:10:27 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: Do you think it is ok for Windows programs developer to opt out of making native Linux apps, if their app will work properly in Wine, without a user first having to mess around with wineconfig which tends to not be much fun, if fun at all.  Plus most users don't really know how to use wineconfig properly.
[16:27] <YokoZar> I agree, I hate winecfg
[16:28] <YokoZar> Part of the work in the Vineyard project is to replace winecfg with something much nicer that asks only the essential questions
[16:28] <YokoZar> In an integrated desktop app.  Think System->Preferences->Windows Applications
[16:29] <YokoZar> Any configuration that a user currently has to do in the registry or by mucking about with Wine should be handled automatically by Wine.
[16:30] <YokoZar> There's been some effort at making this a reality upstream.  However there are a couple questions that we will always have to make configurable (such as which Windows version to emulate), and that's the kind of question that will live in the new configuration dialog.
[16:31] <YokoZar> As for whether it's ok for a developer to not make a "native" app, I think it's important to consider what the user experience is like.  If the app doesn't work very well in Wine, then a native app would naturally have many advantages.  However if the app works perfectly in Wine and requires no configuration, then it's a different matter
[16:33] <YokoZar> In principle a user doesn't even have to know that an app is using Wine internally, much like how Mac gamers don't know when programs are ported using Cider.  This is all a question of packaging - in principle any Windows program could be turned into a proper Ubuntu package (depending on Wine internally), given .desktop entries so it runs from Applications->Games rather than Applications->Wine, given sane default settings, and
[16:33] <YokoZar> If you do all those things in a program that works perfectly in Wine there wouldn't be any real user experience difference between that and a Native port.
[16:34] <YokoZar> Porting with Wine rather than a "proper native" port also has advantages to the developer of letting them unify their code bases.  Google's Picassa is ported with Wine in this way, for instance, and they use literally the same binary between Windows and Linux.
[16:35] <YokoZar> If I had more time I would like to help make this process easier for Windows developers to get their applications ported in a nice, usable way for Ubuntu.  In principle we could even have a "make Ubuntu package based on Wine" plugin for Visual Studio ;)
[16:35] <YokoZar> (08:13:44 AM) mhall119|lernid: QUESTION: What is the current API version targeted by Wine?
[16:35] <YokoZar> All of them ;)
[16:36] <YokoZar> Seriously though, Windows technically has a different version of the API for each Windows version, but Microsoft tries to keep it as similar as possible.  This is why programs written for 3.1 will still work in Windows 7 to a large extent
[16:37] <YokoZar> Microsoft does add new bits to the API of course (and thus new FIXMEs for Wine)
[16:37] <YokoZar> So Wine has some code in it that's "do this in Vista-mode, do this in XP mode", but most of Wine is just "do this", much like Windows is
[16:38] <YokoZar> Really, there's not much difference between switching Wine from Vista to XP mode and setting a Windows application to use "Compatibility mode" in Windows
[16:39] <YokoZar> Regardless, Wine developers target applications rather than a particular API version, as applications are what people care about.  This is different from the approach of the Mono project, who do target versions of the .net API, but things are much cleaner with .net compared to Win32
[16:39] <YokoZar> (08:14:45 AM) virtuald: QUESTION: Spotify recently added support to play mp3 files with windows codecs, but when it finds the string WINE-MP3 somewhere it fails, because it didn't work in their limited testing. What can be done about this?
[16:40] <YokoZar> Spotify can be harassed into working with Wine.  I've actually tried to contact Spotify myself and talk with them personally, because I know they're keen to have better Wine support.  They're actually really nice that way.
[16:41] <YokoZar> Regardless, it's more or less just another Wine bug, and there are quite a few open Spotify bug reports (in both Launchpad and winehq)
[16:41] <YokoZar> (08:26:56 AM) sirmacik: QUESTION: Wine is a piece of a really good software, but why it's logs are so unredable? Many times when it crashes it's log tells me nothin'. I know I should paste some sample but unfortunately I don't have any close at hand :/
[16:42] <YokoZar> A few reasons for this.  One may simply be not having the wine debug symbols installed (which are split into a separate -dbg) package, which gives more usable (to a developer) crash logs
[16:43] <YokoZar> The other reason is that Wine often doesn't know why it (or the application it's running) crashed
[16:44] <YokoZar> So if a program asks Wine how many bricks are in the great wall of China, and Wine tells it 2 million when it was supposed to say 3 million, you wouldn't see a "FIXME: wrong number of bricks" message in Wine.  And the program might carry on working for a little bit, until later it runs out of bricks and the mongol hordes invade.
[16:45] <YokoZar> (08:29:40 AM) sebsebseb: [16:13] <sebsebseb> QUESTION: Do you think it is ok for Windows software developers to opt out of making native Linux apps, if their app will work properly in Wine, without a user first having to mess around with wineconfig, which tends to not be much fun, if fun at all. Plus most users don't know how to use wineconfig properly.
[16:45] <YokoZar> (08:30:06 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: I mean like utorrent for example website even says it's made for Wine
[16:45] <YokoZar> To clarify: I think it's ok if the user experience is basically the same as a "real" native app
[16:46] <YokoZar> Some native apps you have to go through a big hassle to download and install (like Doom3)
[16:46] <YokoZar> With uTorrent the experience is very similar: you go to a website, download the app, and install it.  That's actually pretty much the same experience as you get on Windows
[16:46] <YokoZar> But in Ubuntu we can do much better, with proper packages and the Software Center.
[16:47] <YokoZar> So if, say, there were a uTorrent app with a minimal package that had some .desktop files and put it in Applications->Internet, and it were available through software center, I'd say it's ok that there's no native version.
[16:47] <YokoZar> (08:30:15 AM) virtuald: QUESTION: how do Vineyard relate to PlayOnLinux, wine-doors and winetricks?
[16:48] <YokoZar> Vineyard doesn't catalog specific apps like those projects do.  It would work alongside them to replace the stuff currently in the Applications menu.
[16:49] <YokoZar> One part of Vineyard, for instance, is a python-wine interface.  This allows me to write code for Software center to display installed Wine apps there, so you could then remove programs using Software Center rather than the awkward separate Wine uninstaller
[16:49] <YokoZar> (08:31:52 AM) amichair: QUESTION: How close is WINE to Windows nowadays? What's the probabiliy of a random windows app working correctly? And at what rate is that probability rising? (hopefully :-) )
[16:50] <YokoZar> Higher than it used to be, for sure.  It's gotten to the point where I expect most apps to work until I hear otherwise, even games.
[16:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[16:51] <YokoZar> I actually wondered that exact question - how fast is Wine improving - and went as far as making a mathematical model of Wine's growth
[16:51] <YokoZar> You can see it on my blog here: http://yokozar.org/blog/archives/48  -- there's even code to download and run your own simulation :)
[16:52] <YokoZar> But the executive summary is: given any reasonable model of Wine development, how we fix bugs, and what apps are affected by, we should expect applications to work at an increasingly fast pace.
[16:52] <YokoZar> This is what Wine developers call "collateral damage" - by making one app work by implementing something, you make part of another app work because it needed it too
[16:53] <YokoZar> Eventually these things add up, and you start having a whole lot of apps work without much (or any) specific effort
[16:53] <YokoZar> (08:41:25 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: as for Mono it apparnatly can run .NET version 1 apps, anything later than, that nope,  since it's quite different to the actsual .NET.  Plus then the whole Mono is bad for Linux distro's thing, because it uses a Microsoft programming technology #C and they could maybe patent sue distros over that or something.
[16:54] <YokoZar> So I should talk about Mono for a moment
[16:54] <YokoZar> It's a sister project in many ways
[16:54] <YokoZar> Although Wine doesn't communicate as much with Mono as it should
[16:55] <YokoZar> However there are a good chunk of .net apps that don't yet work in Wine.  Wine is trying to make it so that if you install either Microsoft's .net runtime or Mono's .net runtime these applications will work.
[16:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[16:56] <YokoZar> The Mono project has missing parts of the .net API in much the same way that Windows does.  We maintain a wiki page about what Wine needs from the Mono project, and what ultimately has to come from the community: http://wiki.winehq.org/Mono
[16:56] <YokoZar> There are some parts that Mono would accept into the code, but no one is getting paid to work on them officially.  Stuff that would be valuable to Wine
[16:57] <YokoZar> The ultimate goal would be to run "impure" .net apps - so called "mixed mode assembly" apps that use both .net and the Windows API.  These are things that can't run on "just" mono
[16:57] <YokoZar> They would need Wine too
[16:58] <YokoZar> As far as patents go, I am completely unworried by them.  It's not because I trust Microsoft at all, but rather it's because Microsoft (and others) have so many patents on so many vague things that Mono is just as much as a problem as any other piece of software.  There are even patents on CLICKING
[16:58] <YokoZar> (08:47:34 AM) sebsebseb: YokoZar: proper packages? as in native apps?
[16:59] <YokoZar> It's a good point - once a program is ported with Wine, installable via software center, and basically looks the same as any other program, it hardly makes sense to not call it "native"
[16:59] <YokoZar> But often people say "native" when they mean "the hard way of porting that doesn't involve Wine and requires manually rewriting DirectX to use OpenGL and so on"
[17:00] <YokoZar> Regardless, I believe I got every question.  If I missed yours feel free to ask me personally :)
[17:00] <YokoZar> The hour is now up.  I believe leogg is next
[17:01] <leogg> Heya!
[17:01] <leogg> For those of you who don't know me...
[17:01] <leogg> My name is Leandro and I'm a member of the Ubuntu LoCo Council and an active contributor of the Ubuntu Nicaragua LoCo Team
[17:02] <leogg> Today I'll talk about "Tools, tips and tactics for promoting your Ubuntu Local Team"
[17:02] <leogg> My intention was to cover several areas, such as the Internet, video and audio production, graphics, newsletters, etc.
[17:02] <leogg> But I realized yesterday (when I gave this session at the UOW in Spanish), that one hour is not really that much time for this topic :(
[17:03] <leogg> So I'll give you the 'light' version and focus entirely on the Internet part
[17:03] <leogg> Hopefully, in the near future, I'll blog some more on this topic if you're interested :)
[17:04] <leogg> First of all... Why do you need to promote your LoCo?
[17:04] <leogg> * Recruit new contributors
[17:04] <leogg> * Share your experiencies with other teams around the world
[17:04] <leogg> * Show the awesomeness of your LoCo Team!!! :)
[17:05] <leogg> Let's begin taking a close look at the LoCo website
[17:05] <leogg> I assume that most (if not all) of the LoCo teams already have a website...
[17:06] <leogg> So... how is it working for you?
[17:06] <leogg> Is your website really effective?
[17:07] <leogg> Do the people who visit your website get involved in the community?
[17:07] <leogg> One of important questions we always forget to make is "What are the goals of the LoCo website?"
[17:08] <leogg> * To provide support and information about Ubuntu in your local language?
[17:09] <leogg> * To educate about free software?
[17:09] <leogg> * To create an organisational identity (e.g. Ubuntu users from North Carolina)?
[17:10] <leogg> * To expand your base and mobilise your supporters?
[17:10] <leogg> * All of the above?
[17:10] <leogg> We must know all the answers long before we even start to discuss about which platform we're going to use for the site
[17:11] <leogg> The content and structure of your website will depend on what you want to use the website for
[17:12] <leogg> But if your LoCo already have a website? What can you do?
[17:13] <leogg> Well... good news!
[17:14] <leogg> As all of you know, Ubuntu has a new branding... and that's the perfect excuse for dumping that old dull site and have a new fresh start
[17:14] <leogg> Who knows? Maybe you'll be able to recruit new contributors for your team :)
[17:15] <leogg> Keep in mind:
[17:15] <leogg> The KISS principle! (no... it's not the band!) :)
[17:15] <leogg> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_principle
[17:16] <leogg> "Keep it simple and straightforward"
[17:17] <leogg> A website with a overwhelming amount of information may look messy and can be hard to read
[17:17] <leogg> Remember: Your website is the face of your community to the outside world!
[17:18] <leogg> I really love http://ubuntu-za.org/
[17:18] <leogg> Nice, simple, clean
[17:19] <leogg> (BTW, when are you guys releasing the theme? ;) )
[17:20] <leogg> It might be a good idea to create a 'webmaster team' on Launchpad and a related project (your website!)
[17:20] <leogg> Webmaster team:
[17:20] <leogg> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ni-webmasters
[17:21] <leogg> Related project:
[17:21] <leogg> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ni-website
[17:21] <leogg> Bugs!
[17:21] <leogg> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ni-website
[17:22] <leogg> Using LP enables anyone on your team to file bugs against the website (as a way to track errors and improve the site)
[17:23] <leogg> You can also create blueprints, assign tasks and answer questions (support)
[17:23] <leogg> Resources for LoCo websites:
[17:23] <leogg> Drupal, FTW! - http://drupal.org/
[17:24] <leogg> Most Ubuntu sites uses Drupal (it doesn't mean that you _must_ use it too, but it helps for visual identity and consistency all across the sites)
[17:25] <leogg> The Ubuntu Drupal Development wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDrupal
[17:26] <leogg> Ubuntu Drupal Development Suite in LP - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal
 leogg: We changed (ubuntu-za) from media wiki because of the identiy thing
[17:26] <leogg> I prefer media wiki over moin moin
[17:27] <leogg> It's easier to use and tweak
[17:27] <leogg> But you're right abut the 'identity thing'
[17:27] <leogg> The look-and-feel is important
[17:28] <leogg> Your users must be aware they're on a Ubuntu site
[17:28] <leogg> Ok... I have no questions so far...
[17:28] <leogg> So I'll just move on :)
[17:29] <leogg> Next:
[17:29] <leogg> 2. Micro-blogging
[17:29] <leogg> Micro-blogging sites (such as identi.ca and twitter) allows users to send 'updates' (text-based posts called tweets or dents) up to 140 characters long
[17:30] <leogg> Twitter and Identica will allow you to send updates to one person, to a closed group of contacts or as public messages that can be seen by anyone
[17:31] <leogg> These updates are displayed on the user's profile page and also instantly delivered to other users who have signed up to receive them
[17:31] <leogg> Micro-blogging is a great tool that can deliver your message in a simple and effective way to hundreds (or even thousands) of people
[17:32] <leogg> If you haven't done it yet, create an account for your team
[17:32] <leogg> Go! Go! Go! :)
[17:32] <leogg> You can link your identica account to the twitter account
[17:33] <leogg> In that way all updates will appear on both sites
[17:34] <leogg> Another cool thing you can do is link your micro-blogging account to the blogs aggregated on your planet (if you have one)
[17:35] <leogg> That's a good idea if you don't have much spare time for tweeting/denting
[17:35] <leogg> http://twitterfeed.com/
[17:35] <leogg> Make good use of your hashtags!
[17:36] <leogg> A post in identica with the !ubuntu hashtag will make your update visible to the more than 6,000 members of the Ubuntu users group
[17:36] <leogg> Again... Make good use of your hashtags! (use it wisely, do not spam!)
 leogg: Do you know when canonical are going to release official themes/fonts?
[17:37] <leogg> Soon :)
[17:38] <leogg> Ivanka Majic, the Design Team Lead and all the guys at Canonical are doing a wonderful job!
[17:38] <leogg> But to be honest, I don't know when they're going to release the official artwork
[17:39] <leogg> Be sure to check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity
 How 'bout just using a Identica-group? Ubuntu-fi went for just creating one of those, and biweekly we gather a blogpost from all the (important) dents. Same post is also put to our Facebook-page.
[17:40] <leogg> That's a great idea!
[17:40] <leogg> We have one too :)
 One of the reasons I avoid micro-blogging is precisely because it seems to become spam really fast.
[17:40] <leogg> True!
[17:41] <leogg> As I said... use your tools wisely and with moderation :)
 !ubuntu is mostly converstations instead of announcements
[17:42] <leogg> Yep, and occasionally a lot of flaming
[17:42] <leogg> Let's move on...
[17:43] <leogg> 3. Social networking
[17:43] <leogg> This part may be somewhat controversial (considering that we are part of a free software community)
[17:44] <leogg> Facebook is not a free platform (neither is Twitter)
[17:44] <leogg> Should we, as free software communities, use (and promote the use) of non-free platforms?
[17:45] <leogg> My personal opinion on this:
[17:45] <leogg> YES!
[17:46] <leogg> As much as I would love to see the communities use 100% free software...
[17:46] <leogg> ...the reality is that "we must go where the non-Ubuntu users are"
[17:46] <leogg> It's useless to advocate about the benefits of free software to our community members
[17:46] <leogg> They already know this stuff!
[17:47] <leogg> We must cross the street and persuade our proprietary neighbours... yes, the ones who use Facebook :)
[17:47] <leogg> Social networks have a viral aspect: people may sign up to your cause because they've seen it in a friend's news feed or on their profile on a social network site
[17:48] <leogg> Make it easy for people to sign up by adding your social networking profile to your website.
[17:49] <leogg> * Create fan communities on the social network sites, and encourage your friends to participate
[17:50] <leogg> * Tell people to use specific tags so you can aggregate (bring together) all content they create that relates to your team
[17:50] <leogg> Resources on social networking:
[17:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:51] <leogg> Online communities - http://www.facebook.com/
[17:51] <leogg> (not the only one, but at least the one we use as community)
[17:51] <leogg> Social bookmarking - http://delicious.com/
[17:52] <leogg> Social news site - http://digg.com/
 leogg: Why did you split microblogging and Social networking, How did you feel they differ?
[17:53] <leogg> I think that social networks, such as Facebook, are way more flexible than the micro-blogging platforms
[17:54] <leogg> For example, you can upload videos and photos to FB and they show up on your profile
[17:54] <leogg> The same thing cannot be done with twitter or identica
[17:55] <leogg> Any more questions?
[17:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:58] <leogg> Well... that's all then... :) If you want to get in touch with me, just drop by #ubuntu-centroamerica
[17:58] <leogg> Thank you, guys!
[17:59] <akgraner> leogg, Thank you so much!
[18:00] <akgraner> Up next is Nigel Babu with Patch Team Review
[18:00] <ClassBot> Slides for Patch Review Team: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nigelbabu/patch-review.pdf
[18:01] <nigelbabu> Thanks Amber :)
[18:01] <akgraner> nigelbabu, the floor is yours!
[18:01] <nigelbabu> Hello folks!
[18:01] <nigelbabu> I'm Nigel Babu from the Ubuntu Reviewers Team and I'm here to talk about patch review.
[18:02] <nigelbabu> I've got a bit of ground to cover, so lets get started.
[18:02] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 1]
[18:02] <nigelbabu> The slides for this talk is at http://people.ubuntu.com/~nigelbabu/patch-review.pdf
[18:02] <nigelbabu> I'm not using them extensively, so if you don't have it, you're not missing much.
[18:03] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 2]
[18:03] <nigelbabu> What does the Reviewers Team do?
[18:04] <nigelbabu> Ubuntu has some amazing contributors contributing patches to bugs they encounter.
[18:04] <nigelbabu> Over the past few years, we've not been able to handle this large influx of patches.
[18:04] <nigelbabu> The Ubuntu Reviewers Team works to get these patches reported upstream and thus "give back" to the community.
[18:05] <nigelbabu> The Ubuntu Reviewers Team get the patch, test it, and report it on the upstream bug tracker if the patch is working.
[18:05] <nigelbabu> If a patch does not work as expected, the submitter is encouraged to submit a working patch to fix outstanding issues.
[18:06] <nigelbabu> In case the submitter does not respond, the reviewer makes the modification giving credit to the submitter.
[18:06] <nigelbabu> If a patch is critical enough, like a security issue or a major blocker, we work to getting it immediately into Ubuntu and forward upstream.
[18:06] <nigelbabu> This may also qualify for an SRU to previous versions of Ubuntu.
[18:07] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 2]
[18:07] <nigelbabu> How can you help?
[18:08] <nigelbabu> While you can help in many ways, patch review is the important task for the Reviewers Team at the moment.
[18:08] <nigelbabu> There are more than 1800 open bugs with patches attached that needs review.
[18:08] <nigelbabu> I'll be covering how to do patch review today.
[18:08] <nigelbabu> There are more ways that you can help, you can see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/GettingInvolved for those.
[18:09] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 3]
[18:09] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 4]
[18:10] <nigelbabu> Any quesetions so far?
[18:10] <nigelbabu> moving on then
[18:11] <nigelbabu> First step is to make a query  for bugs with ubuntu-reviewers subscribed with only patch  tag. Select one to work on.
[18:11] <nigelbabu> you can see this query in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/ReviewGuide, its a very big link
[18:11] <nigelbabu> Next step is to reproduce the bug
[18:12] <nigelbabu> Unless a reviewer reproduces the bug, its kind of difficult to check whether the patch works ;)
[18:12] <nigelbabu> Next, review the patch and test it.
[18:13] <nigelbabu> If it does not work properly or needs more work, add the patch-needswork tag. Give the patch submitter some guidance on the rationale for the tag, and ask whether they are willing to update it to resolve outstanding issues.
[18:13] <nigelbabu> If the patch works, subscribe yourself to the bug, forward the bug and patch upstream, and add patch-forwarded-upstream  tag. If the change on the upstream package is debian specific, add the patch-forwarded-debian tag and forward to Debian.
[18:14] <nigelbabu> oh yes, subscribing yourself on any bug is very important, this allows you to keep track of the feedback
[18:15] <nigelbabu> The upstream developers may give positive or negative feedback on the patch, the next step is to review those
[18:15] <nigelbabu> If upstream accepts the patch, remove patch-forward-upstream tag, and add patch-accepted-upstream (or patch-accepted-debian) tag. Indicate the VCS revision and/or expected upstream/debian version/revision that will include the bugfix. If the change is significant enough to be fixed in Ubuntu, get the patch uploaded.
[18:16] <nigelbabu> An example of such a fix is a poppler bug that was fixed for lucid.  Upstream accepted the patch a day after final freeze, but I talked to desktop team and got the fix for lucid.
[18:17] <nigelbabu> If upstream requests patch rework, add the patch-needswork tag, and indicate how to find the upstream feedback on the patch in the bug report. Ask the patch submitter whether they are willing to work with upstream to resolve outstanding issues.
[18:17] <nigelbabu> pretty much straightforward step this one
[18:17] <nigelbabu> If upstream rejects the patch, remove patch-forward-upstream tag, and add patch-rejected-upstream (or patch-rejected-debian) tag. Copy the reasoning for upstream rejection into the Ubuntu bug. Whether the changes get into Ubuntu in this case depends on the will of Ubuntu developers backing the change.
[18:18] <nigelbabu> Most of the times these changes may not make it into Ubuntu but some of them do make it ;)
[18:18] <nigelbabu> If upstream ignores the patch for a moderate amount of time, add the patch-forwarded-debian tag and forward to Debian (Handle feedback from Debian similar to handling upstream feedback )
[18:19] <nigelbabu> upstream not responding is a situation that arises a lot of times, this step may alleviate the wait for some time.
[18:19] <nigelbabu> And the final step is If the patch is unnecessary or addresses something that does not need to be fixed, add tag patch-rejected, give reason in the comments, and if required close the bug to Won't Fix.
[18:20] <nigelbabu> So, thats the entire review workflow, its a bit playing with tags, because LP needs a little bit more work into handling each patch.
[18:20] <nigelbabu> Any questions on this?
[18:22] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 5]
[18:22] <nigelbabu> I seemed to have messed up my slide numbers when I listed them earlier ;)
[18:22] <nigelbabu> How to Join?
[18:22] <nigelbabu> Does this sound exciting enough?  Want to help us out?
[18:23] <nigelbabu> To join the Reviewers Team you need to:
[18:23] <nigelbabu> 1. Sign the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.
[18:23] <nigelbabu> 2. Be part of Bug Squad.
[18:23] <nigelbabu> 3. Have knowledge of Ubuntu/Debian packaging.
[18:24] <nigelbabu> All the 3 are very critical, you need to know how to deal with upstream trackers and also generate debdiffs.
[18:24] <nigelbabu> You don't need to be an expert though, we're all around and willing to help
[18:24] <nigelbabu> All you need to do is ping one of the team members
[18:25] <nigelbabu> The current team members are the folks who are members of https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-reviewers
[18:25] <nigelbabu> If you have installed the launchpad greasemonkey scripts, the reviewers show up with a small bandage icon
[18:26] <ClassBot> A-R-R asked: I do want to help but I still need to learn Ubuntu/Debian packaging procedures. Where should I start learning from? Any recommended sources?
[18:27] <nigelbabu> A-R-R: Excellent question, the best place is to look at the packaging guide in the MOTU documentation.
[18:27] <nigelbabu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
[18:28] <nigelbabu> If you feel you're ready for being a team member, you can apply for membership in the launchpad team.
[18:28] <nigelbabu> As with any Ubuntu development team, you are expected to already work as part of the team before you apply for membership.
[18:28] <nigelbabu> Most of the work can be done without being a member, there is no blocker to do review if you are not a team member.
[18:29] <nigelbabu> When you apply, be prepared to prove the review work that you've already done or have a current member vouch for your work.
[18:29] <nigelbabu> Alternatively, come hang out on #ubuntu-reviews and do stuff until someone gets annoyed and bugs an admin to add you. ;)
[18:29] <nigelbabu> Earlier in the yofel earned his membership that way :D
[18:30] <nigelbabu> *Earlier in the day
[18:30] <nigelbabu> Looks like I was kinda fast with the session, so I have plenty of time for questions :)
[18:30] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 5]
[18:30] <nigelbabu> [SLIDE 6]
[18:31] <nigelbabu> Patch Day (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PatchDay) is now going on where we're mobilizing people to help review patches on May 5 in all time zones (adding to a total of 49 hours!).
[18:32] <nigelbabu> We started at 1000 UTC today and we've covered close to 30 bugs by now!
[18:33] <nigelbabu> The really big attraction of Patch Day is there will always be a review lead on the channel whom you can ask help and guidance.
[18:33] <nigelbabu> The channel is #ubuntu-reviews btw
[18:33] <nigelbabu> Feel free to participate and help out!
[18:33] <nigelbabu> Patch Day runs till May 6 1000 UTC
[18:33] <nigelbabu> So, any questions, please ask away
[18:34] <nigelbabu> I have 30 minutes to take questions.  I expected lots of them and kept time, don't disappoint me.
[18:35] <nigelbabu> < vocx> About which kind of software are most patches?
[18:36] <nigelbabu> Most of the time, its desktop applications that gets a lot of patches
[18:36] <nigelbabu> The bugs that people find annoying and really want eliminated, we have one or two people annoyed enough to look at the code and find a fix :)
[18:38] <ClassBot> A-R-R asked: What exactly is meant by 'upstream'?
[18:39] <nigelbabu> Most of the time, Ubuntu doesn't develop all the applications.  We use other applications to make a product called Ubuntu.
[18:39] <nigelbabu> Upstream is the original developer of the applications we use.
[18:40] <nigelbabu> For example, the gnome desktop environment has an upstream in the gnome project, that is where the original developers coordinate
[18:41] <nigelbabu> Patch review is done of all patches attached to bugs in Launchpad, but reviewers need to work on all upstream trackers
[18:42] <nigelbabu> It may the gnome bugzilla, the debian bts, the kde bugzilla, and many others
[18:45] <nigelbabu>  MononcQc> is the patch and review team usually composed of the same programmers who implement new features or applications?
[18:45] <nigelbabu> There may be an overlap, but its not intentional.
[18:46] <nigelbabu> We have a lot of very versatile contributors who're everywhere (like maco, I keep running into her)
[18:46] <nigelbabu> So, you may see the same people in many teams :)
[18:46] <nigelbabu> if you could prepond your questions with 'QUESTION:
[18:47] <nigelbabu> that would be really great, it saves me the trouble of copy pasting
[18:49] <maco> Just wanted to point out that patch reviewers don't have to be very good programmers (or in some cases, programmers at all), so there should be people who are reviewers but are not writing new features
[18:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
 why would one submit a patch to launchpad and not submit a patch directly upstream?
[18:51] <nigelbabu> If you can report it upstream, please do report it upstream.
[18:52] <nigelbabu> Only, most people tend to submit(err.. not report) patches in Ubuntu bug tracker (launchpad)
[18:52] <nigelbabu> Now, if the package is something that has someone caring abuot, things go fine
[18:52] <nigelbabu> if its an orphan package, it ends up being on launchpad too long and we get a big backlog
[18:53] <nigelbabu> and as maco reminds me, its easier to just report it in lunachpad and finding out the particular bug tracker and reporting it there.
[18:54] <nigelbabu> report it in lunachpad *than* finding out the particular bug tracker and reporting it there
[18:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:56] <nigelbabu> Also, dholbach will be taking 2 session on Friday about Ubuntu development and how to get involved, so that should help learn how to create debdiff, etc
[19:00] <nigelbabu> so thats about it folks, thank you for participating :)
[19:00] <akgraner> Thanks nigelbabu1
[19:00] <akgraner> Great session!
[19:01] <akgraner> qense and jcastro are up next the session will begin in about two minutes...
[19:01] <akgraner> They will be going over - Adopting a Package and being an upstream contact
[19:02] <akgraner> so stretch, grab something to drink and we'll get started in just a min or two :-)
[19:02] <qense> oh my god, they're shooting at the dam!
[19:02] <akgraner> welcome qense!
[19:03] <akgraner> you've been introduced the floor is all yours!
[19:03] <qense> a bit an unorthodox introduction
[19:04] <akgraner> :-)
[19:04] <qense> apologises, I'm a bit from my apropos, it just looked like someone starting shooting in the crowd at the NAtional Monument in Amsterdam, live on television
[19:04] <qense> Seems alrgith now, lets start
[19:04] <qense> Hello everyone, I'm Sense Hofstede -- https://launchpad.net/~qense -- and this session will be all about 'adopting a package and being an upstream contact', or Adopt-a-Package and Adopt-an-Upstream.
[19:04] <qense> Unfortunately Jorge Castro (jcastro) is too busy to attend this session so I'll be doing this alone.
[19:05] <qense> Lets first explain to you what the project actually is.
[19:05] <qense> There are different ways of contributing to a distribution. For example, you could cherry-pick the tasks you'd like to work on, or you could choose to focus on a specific subset of the available tasks.
[19:05] <qense> Everyone has a different approach that works best for her or him. However, you do work more efficiently and effectively when you focus on a clearly bounded area.
[19:06] <qense> This is what Adopt-an-Upstream and Adopt-a-Package are: you focus on a project/application you like and make sure it rocks in Ubuntu!
[19:06] <qense> Smaller applications can be adopted by a single person, but if the project's large or when it gets a lot of bug reports it quickly becomes too much to do on your own. In that case you should consider teaming up with a group of like-minded people and adopt as a group.
[19:06] <qense> Now, it is quite some work to focus on all facets of a project's existence in Ubuntu -- I'd say you're no longer focusing then -- so you split the work up in different tasks.
[19:07] <qense> When you're sure you want to adopt something and have decided what that something would be then it's time to start thinking which part of the work you want to adopt.
[19:08] <qense> Because adoption of an upstream encompasses the following points:
[19:08] <qense> Communication
[19:08] <qense> both communicating Ubuntu schedules and announcements of importance to the upstream project to the upstream project, and communicating the project's schedules and announcement to the developers in Ubuntu that should know about it.
[19:08] <qense> Bug triaging or Adopt-a-Package
[19:08] <qense> That is: you work on triaging -- processing -- the bugs reported against the adopted project. More on this later.
[19:09] <qense> Packaging
[19:09] <qense>  Making sure the latest version of the package is available in Ubuntu, either by merging or syncing it from Debian, or by packaging it yourself.
[19:09] <qense> Forwarding patches upstream
[19:09] <qense>  For some bugs there are fixes available that Ubuntu maintains as patches. It's the best for everyone if those patches are also sent upstream so they can be included in the code.
[19:09] <qense> You've been able to hear more about that in the previous session.
[19:09] <qense> and finally: Representing the project in Ubuntu and Ubuntu upstream
[19:10] <qense>  This means being the contact person of that project in Ubuntu and the Ubuntu contact person upstream.
[19:10] <qense> That sure are many things to do!
[19:11] <qense> Lets talk a bit more about how we could do that,
[19:11] <qense> It can happen that someone else is already working on one or more of the tasks I mentioned.
[19:12] <qense> If someone or a group of people have already adopted a project then you should try to cooperate with them.
[19:12] <qense> Some people have formed a team for adopting a project.
[19:12] <qense> An example of this is the MozillaTeam: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam
[19:12] <qense> Although that team was created before Adopt-an-Upstream was started it is still a very good example for people that actually want to adopt a package.
[19:13] <qense> Any questions so far?
[19:14] <qense> OK, lets take a closer look at connecting with the upstream project.
[19:15] <qense> Because that's the most important thing of it all and that's what Adopt-an-UPSTREAM is actually about.
[19:15] <qense> First of all, please keep in mind that the upstreams are very important to Ubuntu -- without them we'd barely have anything in the repositories and nothing to run what we would have -- so please try treat them respectfully.
[19:15] <qense> Although I'm sure most of you will. :)
[19:15] <qense> There are a few actions you can take to make sure you don't miss anything you need to know.
[19:16] <qense> First of all, if you're often on IRC, it is strongly advised to join the project's channel as well; this makes it easier for the upstream developers to contact you when they need to ask you something and allows you to quickly ask them your questions.
[19:16] <qense> It's also a good idea to subscribe to the project's mailing list, or -- when there are multiple -- to the list that you'll most likely find the discussions on you want to follow.
[19:16] <qense> Some projects also have mailing lists that are only used for sending release announcements, often with the release notes.
[19:16] <qense> That is a valuable source of information and something you should pass on to the affected Ubuntu developers if it is interesting for Ubuntu.
[19:17] <ClassBot> drubin asked: Do you have to be an upstream dev to be apart of this? Also is there a formal process to be included on bugs related to that package?
[19:18] <qense> drubin: You don't have to be an upstream developer in order to contribute. Experience from upstream is valuable, but it's certainly not required. It is helpful, though, if you have some experience with the specific area you're adopting.
[19:19] <qense> drubin: If you want to be subscribed to all bugs of a certain package you can go to the bug overview page of that package and subscribe there.
[19:20] <qense> Say, e.g., you want to get mail for all bugs reported against Nautilus on Launchpad you go to <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus>. You see a link at the left "Subscribe to bug mail". Press that and you'll get mail fora ll bug reports.
[19:20] <qense> Be careful though, some packages get a lot of mail and you don't want your inbox overflowing with bug mail.
[19:20] <qense> For upstream bug trackers it differs per tracker.
[19:21] <qense> Lets continue.
[19:21] <qense> If the upstream project chooses to make a radical change you should warn Ubuntu on time.
[19:21] <qense> Example given: during the Ubuntu Developer Summit a collaborative text editor called 'Gobby' is used. A release or two ago, before the UDS for Ubuntu 10.04 Lucid Lynx, a new version was released which changed the protocol.
[19:21] <qense> In order to make sure that everyone, even those that don't use the latest release of Ubuntu, can participate Ubuntu decided to stick to the old protocol.
[19:22] <qense> The new release of Gobby was packaged separately and the previous Gobby release was left in the repositories so it could be used during the UDS.
[19:22] <qense> This is something upstream adopters could help with.
[19:23] <qense> On the other hand, of course, when large changes are made in Ubuntu -- like the Application Indicator that were added to Ubuntu Lucid -- it is the task of the adopter to notify upstream and cooperate with them in adding support for it to the project.
[19:23] <qense> This could be done by helping an upstream developers by pointing her or him to the right documentation, wiki pages, mailing lists and IRC channels, but also by helping an Ubuntu contributor with writing a patch and making sure that patch gets sent upstream.
[19:23] <qense> You're really the bridge between two communities.
[19:24] <qense> What's also an important task of making sure no data valuable to the upstream project remains locked away in Ubuntu is forwarding bugs upstream.
[19:24] <qense> This brings us to our next stop: Adopt-a-Package.
[19:24] <qense> But first, if you have a question, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION:.
[19:25] <qense> I heard someone in the -chat channel asking whether he could still help when the package was already being looked after by someone else. That's no problem, you're help is always appreciated. Just contact the people working on it.
[19:26] <qense> drub asked: QUESTION: What is the best process to go through when you find a issue between ubuntu and upstream project?
[19:26] <qense> drubin
[19:26] <qense> It depends on the issue. What kind of issue do you mean, drubin?
 qense: lets take a compatiblity issue. I know for simply new versions you would file a merge request
[19:28] <qense> It's hard to really give an answer to this unspecific question, but a general answer would be: communication.
[19:29] <qense> Always communicate, talk with upstream, talk with Ubuntu-people and try to find solutions.
[19:29] <qense> Keep talking.
[19:29] <qense> Now, lets get on with Adopt-a-Package.
[19:30] <qense> This is more separate from Adopt-an-Upstream, but it could perfectly be a part of an Adoption.
[19:30] <qense> General information about Adopt-an-Upstream page can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Adopt
[19:30] <qense> However, Adopt-a-Package has a wiki page of its own, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/AdoptPackage
[19:30] <qense> As you can see on that page there are already quite a few packages adopted by bug triagers that aren't adopted 'in general'.
[19:30] <qense> Because Adopt-a-Package is about looking after bugs.
[19:31] <qense> The wiki pages are a good place to look for ideas when you want to adopt something and it is something you should look at so you won't do duplicate work.
[19:31] <qense> When dealing with projects that have many bugs reported against them on Launchpad it's often wise to divide the tasks and let one go through the newly reported bugs, whereas the other is responsible for forwarding bugs upstream.
[19:33] <qense> To give people an idea how they could organise their 'adoption team' I've created a wiki page that gives a suggestion for a team structure.
[19:33] <qense> You can find it at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/AdoptionTeam>.
[19:34] <qense> As you can see the bugs are divided themselves in different tasks because the larger packages have so many bug reports that you shouldn't only divide the different tasks like packaging and bug triaging, but also the bug triaging itself.
[19:34] <qense> It's undoable to triage all the bugs by yourselves.
[19:35] <qense> OK, now I would like to know whom of you have already adopted a package or an upstream, who wants to adopt a package or an upstream or if you have any questions.
[19:35] <qense> Please tell!
[19:36] <qense> vocx says it's too much work.
[19:36] <qense> Well, it sure is a lot of work if you do everything on your own.
[19:36] <qense> That's why you should form a group and work together!
 Can I just baby-sit it until it's 16?
[19:37] <qense> vocx: Of course you don't have to do all the work at once. Even if you do just a little bit we're already very thankful.
[19:37] <qense> Every single contribution is welcome.
 I have adopted a couple of packages
 I also work with xfce, abiword, and gnumeric upstreams
[19:38] <qense> Good to hear you're working with the upstreams, that's very important.
[19:38] <qense> That is a part of Adopt-an-Upstream: making sure Ubuntu goes well with upstreams.
[19:39] <qense> Part of this could be writing documentation or wiki pages containing information for upstreams about Ubuntu or for Ubuntu about upstreams.
[19:39] <qense> A good example of such a thing is the Banshee Workspace: <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Banshee>
[19:39] <qense> Please take a look at it.
[19:39] <qense> At the wiki-page you can see a lot of links.
[19:40] <qense> When you're familiar with a project you often know where you can find what you need. But if you're new then such an overview page can help you a lot with finding what you need.
[19:40] <qense> vocx asked: "What if upstream doesn't respond? I mean, come on, upstream! I made two patches using gtksourceview and gtksourceview2 and you are still using TexTView, what gives? Wake up."
[19:41] <qense> You can only do so much.
[19:41] <qense> You cannot force projects to accept your work, but you can make it as easy as possible for them to accept your work.
[19:41] <qense> This means: following their style guidelines, their freezes and their patch-submitting process.
[19:42] <qense> Things like the Banshee workspace I mentioned earlier can help a lot with this because they link to the vital information you need in order to do this.
[19:42] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What do you think about Ubuntu basically forking Gnome 2,  because of all  these non upstream edits, that are being introduced? Me menu, and so on.
[19:44] <qense> sebsebseb: I, personally, feel that it is not necessary bad to do this. Projects are entities of their own and they have their own ways and methods for changing things. If you're an outsider with great ideas -- Canonical wants to reform the Linux desktop but it does not consist of die-hard GNOME community members -- it is hard to get listened to. This, of course, is not necessarily a bad thing. However, if you want to still change the desktop
[19:44] <qense> you then better change it yourself.
[19:44] <qense> The fact that it diverges from upstream is not necessarily bad because you can later, if upstream likes it, submit the work upstream.
[19:45] <qense> If your work is better than the work of upstream it might drive them to improve.
[19:45] <qense> If your work is worse then you'll change back soon enough.
[19:45] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: must translations be forked?
[19:46] <qense> bruce89: Preferably not. You want to get advantage of the wonderful translation work that's done upstream and you want them to profit from their work.
[19:48] <qense> A note to those of you interested in working on the bugs of a certain application:
[19:49] <qense> If you have no prior experience with triaging (do you all know what triaging means?) please don't rush in right away and adopt OpenOffice. Instead consider asking for a mentor -- <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors> -- and if you want to adopt something, start with a small package.
[19:50] <qense> sebsebseb: However, translations are mostly dealt with by the translation teams themselves and their workflow for working with upstream differs per translation team. If you are interested in helping out with translating, please consider joining the translators of your langauge.
[19:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:52] <qense> I have run out of words. If you have a question, please ask and I'll be glad to help out. After this session you could also try on IRC in #ubuntu-bugs or in #ubuntu-devel. Or, if you really feel like, you can always mail me at qense AT ubuntu DOT com
[19:52] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: in the case Ubuntu were to basically fork GNOME 2.xx, who would benefit more: GNOME, Ubuntu or the users?
[19:52] <qense> bruce89: I hope the user, because that's who it's all about in the end, isn't it?
[19:54] <qense> Now we have some time left I do want to focus your attention on our most important upstream: Debian.
[19:54] <qense> It might not always be the most visible one, but we owe Debian a lot.
[19:55] <qense> A lot of our packages are taken from Debian and we wouldn't be able to offer such a great distribution without the great work of the Debian developers.
[19:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:55] <qense> If you want to do something back for them you could focus on forwarding patches or bugs to Debian or help Debian out with packaging.
[19:56] <qense> Because: if you help Debian you help Ubuntu.
[20:00] <akgraner> Thanks qense for a great session!
[20:00] <akgraner> Up next is the Desktop Q & A
[20:01] <rickspencer3> Hi!
[20:01] <akgraner> Rick you all can take it away!
[20:01] <rickspencer3> thanks akgraner
[20:01] <rickspencer3> I'm in Brussels and sitting with seb128 and didrocks atm
[20:02] <rickspencer3> so I guess this a QA session, where folks get to ask questions and we answer
[20:02] <rickspencer3> right
[20:02] <rickspencer3> ?
[20:02] <rickspencer3> so let's rock
[20:02] <rickspencer3> ask away
[20:03] <ClassBot> mbudde asked: What are you thoughts on windicators?
[20:03] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[20:03] <rickspencer3> well, I just learned about this idea yesterday
[20:04] <rickspencer3> but so far, I think it's a cool idea
[20:04] <rickspencer3> we'll have to get the Client Side Decorations work landed and fixed up right quick early in the cycle to ensure that windicators are solid
[20:04] <rickspencer3> I'd prefer a less whimsical name ;)
[20:04] <ClassBot> akgraner asked: I love the desktop on 10.04 are there many plans to change it in 10.10? and if so what can we expect?
[20:05] <rickspencer3> ewe, nice question
[20:05] <rickspencer3> since UDS is coming next week, we've been thinking a lot about this, of course
[20:06] <rickspencer3> so there is some house keeping regarding gnome
[20:06] <rickspencer3> like catching up with some of the latest stuff that we didn't get, like evolution
[20:06] <rickspencer3> I'd like to take another look at the experience with Pictures, and see if we can simplify that
[20:06] <rickspencer3> and of course, continue the work on indicators
[20:07] <rickspencer3> and I'd like to see a lot of folks write some cool new apps too
[20:07] <ClassBot> shazzner asked: Usability is still a problem for Linux on the desktop how can the community work to improve this, or must we rely on Canonical?
[20:07] <rickspencer3> deep question
[20:08] <rickspencer3> so usability is a problem generally, not just on Linux, though this does not alter your central point
[20:08] <rickspencer3> in terms of "relying on Canonical" I'm not sure what to say there
[20:08] <rickspencer3> I would think that folks would want their own apps to be easy to use, of course
[20:09] <rickspencer3> I would invite contributions to UDS planning that are related to usability
[20:09] <rickspencer3> I would love to see some community efforts around collecting real usability data
[20:10] <rickspencer3> not sure what else to say there
[20:10] <rickspencer3> sorry for the bad answer :/
[20:10] <ClassBot> shazzner asked: to clarify are most of the usability improvements going to be coming from Canonical or is there a path for the community to improve it?
[20:10] <rickspencer3> well, I guess it means what you mean by "community" here
[20:10] <rickspencer3> I would think that the community of people who write applications that run on the desktop have a huge role to play
[20:11] <rickspencer3> I would think that the community of folks who contribute to the ayatana discussion feel those discussions in and of themselves are contributions
[20:11] <rickspencer3> of course feedback on blueprints and on development versions are contributions
[20:11] <rickspencer3> things like the new manual project are great contributions
[20:12] <rickspencer3> and then folks come up with some really innovative things that make things easier
[20:12] <rickspencer3> like Ground Control, etc...
[20:12] <ClassBot> akgraner asked: I recently read on the ayatana mailing list that they system tray was going away in 11.04 - are you move the desktop in the direction of gnome shell?
[20:12] <rickspencer3> by system tray, I guess this is the "notification area"?
[20:13] <rickspencer3> so this is not going away, so much as being replaced but what we now call "indicators"
[20:13] <rickspencer3> which are essentially strictly designed menus that provide similar functionality to indicators in a consistent manner
[20:14] <rickspencer3> I guess the fact that gnome-shell is interested in the same or similar concepts is good convergent validity that we are on a good path
[20:14] <ClassBot> x-Na asked: Remote desktop is a nice feature, but at it's current state it's not working if there are more than one user, to clarify: if another user logs in, you can't connect to your remote desktop.
[20:15] <rickspencer3> is there a question there? I'd answer if you can ask a question
[20:15] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: As an experienced Ubuntu user since the second release in 2005, with Ubuntu also not being my first distro, I have a mixture of positive and negative thoughts, when it comes to the non upstream Gnome editing that started happening with 9.04.   You guys seem to be the developers of Ubuntu, and so do you really think changing Gnome 2 a lot, whilst sort of forking it, is a good thing? Especially with Gnome 3 is just round the
[20:15] <rickspencer3> ah
[20:15] <rickspencer3> so you are asking about our relationship with upstream gnome?
[20:16] <rickspencer3> well, I still consider Ubuntu to be a gnome-based distro
[20:16] <rickspencer3> and I don't think there is really a "fork" at all
[20:16] <rickspencer3> but yes, we do focus on the user experience in Ubuntu, and hope that if upstream finds our work useful, they will adopt it as appropriate
[20:17] <akgraner> rickspencer3, here is the end of his question - corner, which I expect will also get edited by Ubuntu developers, but I hope only in a properly good way.
[20:17] <rickspencer3> well, it's free software
[20:17] <rickspencer3> so I guess there is no unproper way
[20:17] <rickspencer3> but I think the question is about maintaining the vitality of gnome?
[20:18] <rickspencer3> suffice to say, we have a good relationship with gnome foundation, and contribute to gnome in many ways
[20:18] <rickspencer3> so I think that Ubuntu spreads gnome, and that's good for gnome
[20:18] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: what is the actual difference between GtkStatusIcon and libindicate?
[20:19] <rickspencer3> ok
[20:19] <rickspencer3> so on a technical level, I can't really list the details here
[20:19] <rickspencer3> but for users, there are significant differences
[20:19] <rickspencer3> a status icon is just an icon that can have menus, click behaviors, whatever you want
[20:19] <rickspencer3> or nothing it can just be an icon
[20:20] <rickspencer3> they also each live in their own individual universe
[20:20] <rickspencer3> in the sense that they don't share any navigation, etc...
[20:20] <rickspencer3> so Indicators are different
[20:20] <rickspencer3> they are:
[20:20] <rickspencer3> 1. *only* menus
[20:20] <rickspencer3> 2. never have right click menus
[20:21] <rickspencer3> 3. never have "on click" behaviors
[20:21] <rickspencer3> in this way, they all work in a very consistent manner, there are no unexpected behaviors
[20:21] <rickspencer3> also ...
[20:21] <rickspencer3> 4. they share a navigation structure like they are all in one menu
[20:21] <rickspencer3> so in this way you can easily navigate them with the keyboard and such
[20:22] <rickspencer3> there are some differences in how they are implemented as well, for developers they look a little different
[20:22] <ClassBot> x-Na asked: Any plans to improve Remote Desktop?
[20:22] <rickspencer3> not explicitly atm
[20:22] <rickspencer3> if this is important to you, you should see if you can register a blueprint and get some folks together to address your goals there
[20:23] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: do you think upstream complaints about copyright assignment are reasonable?
[20:23] <rickspencer3> oooh
[20:23] <rickspencer3> a little hard ball
[20:23] <rickspencer3> ;)
[20:23] <rickspencer3> j/k
[20:23] <rickspencer3> so, not sure what these "upstream complaints" are specifically
[20:23] <rickspencer3> however, I think that the gnome policy regarding copyright assignment works ok with Canonical
[20:24] <rickspencer3> so, I think everyone who has expressed an opinion has done so with only good intentions, so of course, they are reasonable
[20:24] <rickspencer3> but I think the resolution is fine
[20:24] <rickspencer3> note that copyright assignment policies are not uncommon for companies to have
[20:25] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: couldn't API be added to GTK+ to make indicators instead of having a seperate library?
[20:25] <rickspencer3> well .. I am not an expert here
[20:26] <rickspencer3> but after we have a stable API and the issues are shaked out, I would expect that if upstream thought indicators were useful
[20:26] <rickspencer3> we would certainly work with the GTK+ folks to put them there if that's what they wanted
[20:26] <rickspencer3> but once are in GTK+ developers have a right to expect them to stay consistent for a long time
[20:26] <rickspencer3> they are not ready for that yet
[20:27] <ClassBot> bruce89 asked: Do you support the work on symbolic icons?
[20:27] <rickspencer3> If I knew what you referring to I would answer :/
[20:27] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: There are or were some remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop. Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop as a resul it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have as the default desktop in 10.10, but that it should be optioanl from the repos?
[20:27] <rickspencer3> will be talking about Gnome 3 at UDS
[20:28] <rickspencer3> we always discuss what to adopt from latest gnome in the next Ubuntu
[20:28] <rickspencer3> gnome 3 includes many many things, but I suspect you are referring more specifically to gnome-shell
[20:29] <rickspencer3> if so, I can say that we will continue to deliver gnome-shell to users in Universe, as we have since early in 9.10
[20:29] <rickspencer3> but I don't expect it to be ready for any distro to ship be default once month after their current target release date
[20:29] <rickspencer3> but that's just my opinion, we will discuss next week, I suspect
[20:30] <ClassBot> shazzner asked: I really like Quickly as a rapid development app do you see this as a way for new developers to get into development for ubuntu?
[20:30] <rickspencer3> YES!
[20:30] <rickspencer3> and also
[20:30] <rickspencer3> yes yes yes yes
[20:30] <didrocks_> yes too ? ;)
[20:30] <rickspencer3> not just Ubuntu, but free software in general
[20:31] <rickspencer3> I hope that it provide a "toe hold" after which people can see how incredibly rewarding writing FLOSS apps are
[20:31] <rickspencer3> and then maybe branch out based on their interests
[20:31] <rickspencer3> I also kind of always picutred Quickly being adopted by other distros or upstream if it ever becomes so useful
[20:31] <rickspencer3> ALSO
[20:31] <rickspencer3> I think experienced developers should find it useful
[20:32] <rickspencer3> just because you are experienced doesn't mean that you want packaging to be hard ;)
[20:32] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Uh typeo's let's edit that: There are or were some  remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop.  Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and so as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop in the 10.10 release, but that it will be optional from the repo's?
[20:32] <rickspencer3> ok, so the question was about 11.04, sorry I didn't grock that
[20:33] <rickspencer3> so for 11.04, I can honestly, I don;t know
[20:33] <rickspencer3> it's a big change, we'll have to see what is the right thing at the time
[20:33] <rickspencer3> sorry to not be definitive, but I just can't say what will be the right thing then
[20:33] <ClassBot> aquarius asked: now that we have video editing and so on, are there any areas that you think should be covered by applications in the default Ubuntu install set but aren't because we don't have a good app in those areas yet?
[20:33] <rickspencer3> tbh, I don't have that kind of imagination
[20:34] <rickspencer3> well, I think that developers tools is an area to which we need to channel a lot of innovation
[20:34] <rickspencer3> I think we should work together to create a really tight developer story, end to end
[20:34] <rickspencer3> but I'm not sure that would be a default type thing
[20:35] <rickspencer3> I guess, I don't think Canonical is going to write the next killer app
[20:35] <rickspencer3> but I think the Ubuntu community may well create the tools that allow some creative person to do so
[20:35] <ClassBot> akgraner asked: rickspencer3 in the time you have been working on the desktop team  - what would you or your team say is the most interesting/best feature on the Ubuntu Desktop compared to other distributions.
[20:36] <rickspencer3> well, 9.04 was the first release for which I was there for the whole thing, end to end
[20:36] <rickspencer3> since then, we've added all the sweet stuff that the Dx team contributed
[20:36] <rickspencer3> notify-osd, indicators, etc...
[20:36] <rickspencer3> there's the stuff the OLS team contributed, like file-sync, and desktop-couch, and of course the music store
[20:37] <rickspencer3> and then there are the sweet apps that community members wrote, like Gwibber
[20:37] <rickspencer3> so these are "additive" things, that some distros have adopted, and some haven't
[20:38] <rickspencer3> however, I think it's what Ubuntu *doesn't* do as much as what Ubuntu does do that makes it special
[20:38] <rickspencer3> we don't deliver duplicate apps
[20:38] <rickspencer3> we don't make it confusing to install with millions of options, etc...
[20:39] <rickspencer3> holding back apps that are not appropriate for typical daily usage
[20:39] <rickspencer3> stuff like this
[20:39] <rickspencer3> out of all these new things, I think the sleeper hit, is desktop-couch
[20:39] <rickspencer3> as an app developer, this is going to be the most useful thing
[20:40] <rickspencer3> handling persistence for application developers in a reliable consistent manner I suspect will convert into lots of applications that end users will appreciate
[20:40] <rickspencer3> because of the speedy devleopment time, syncing, and other desktop-couchy features
[20:40] <rickspencer3> so, there are no more questions in queue
[20:41] <rickspencer3> I'll gladly hang out, but if anyone has follow up questions
[20:41] <rickspencer3> or if I didn't really answer anyone, feel free to ask again
[20:41] <ClassBot> shazzner asked: how would one go about contributing to Quickly-widgets?
[20:41] <rickspencer3> you just made my night
[20:42] <rickspencer3> so this is pretty informal now
[20:42] <rickspencer3> if you have code to contribute, just propose a merge or whatever, and we'll talk
[20:42] <rickspencer3> I would love to see more widgets
[20:42] <rickspencer3> if you have feature requests, widgets you'd like to see, you can log a bug or just find me on freenode
[20:42] <rickspencer3> the project on launchpad is called quidgets
[20:43] <rickspencer3> http://launchpad.net.quidgets
[20:43] <rickspencer3> over the weekend a wrote a webcam quidget, and a GoogleMap quidget!
[20:43] <ClassBot> akgraner asked: did you keep the buttons on the left or move them back to the the right?
[20:43] <rickspencer3> lo
[20:43] <rickspencer3> l
[20:43] <rickspencer3> totally kept them on the left
[20:43] <rickspencer3> I think they work totally fine there, and am still a bit mystified by the whole reaction to the move
[20:44] <rickspencer3> I have a non-techy friend who needed a computer, so I set up an old netbook for her
[20:44] <rickspencer3> and when she was poking around at UNE, she didn't even mention the buttons
[20:44] <rickspencer3> as a windows user, she was not bothered in the list
[20:45] <rickspencer3> (though there were some other things that were a bit of a bother for her)
[20:45] <ClassBot> mhall119|lernid asked: I asked yesterday in the Gwibber session, but is there a Quickly widget for posting through Gwibber?
[20:45] <rickspencer3> no, but there is a widget in Gwibber for this
[20:45] <rickspencer3> there is some code in photobomb that shows how to do this
[20:45] <rickspencer3> it's pretty easy
[20:45] <rickspencer3> hold on
[20:46] <rickspencer3> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/+junk/photobomb
[20:46] <rickspencer3> there's the branch, let me know if you can't find the code, I'll pull it out for yo
[20:46] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Some people want Chromium to be the default browser in Ubuntu.  Since I am rather  loyal to Firefox and it's a good browser,  I hope this does not happen any time soon. (Plus on the top right in Chromium/Chrome next to the URL bar, how the menu is done and such, that really does remind me of the horrible Internet Explorer 7 and Internet Explorer 8  browsers.)  I assume I am correct to believe that Firefox will remain the
[20:46] <akgraner> default browser in the desktop version for many releases to  come?  However maybe the netbook version will use Chromium instead not that far from now, since the ARM version or whatever  does at the moment, since apparently it's more light weight than Firefox.
[20:46] <rickspencer3> you are not right to assume this
[20:46] <rickspencer3> !
[20:47] <rickspencer3> please look at the blueprints and comment
[20:47] <rickspencer3> we basically plan to facilitate a community decision about the default browser, and go with that
[20:47] <rickspencer3> however, whatever we choose, you will always be free to use the browser that you prefer
[20:47] <rickspencer3> it's just a matter of defaults
[20:48] <rickspencer3> didrocks_ is looking for the links to the right blueprints
[20:48] <rickspencer3> he'll paste them in in a moment
[20:48] <ClassBot> mbudde asked: Is Quidgets stable? Are you planning to backport quidgets to older releases?
[20:48] <rickspencer3> no and no
[20:48] <rickspencer3> not stable because they are early and folks who use them make lots of feature requests
[20:48] <rickspencer3> they are also not table because I am a sucky developer ;)
[20:49] <rickspencer3> not planning to backport just because I have a very long list of todo items, but I would be happy to see the code go to previous releases, other distros, etc...
[20:49] <rickspencer3> basically, if someone finds it useful, I hope they feel free to make what they can of the code
[20:50] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: If to many of the default apps and such are removed from Ubuntu, then basically in a way the proper Ubuntu expereince has been removed?
[20:50] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[20:50] <rickspencer3> well, Ubuntu is supposed to deliver the best that the open source eco-system has to offer
[20:50] <rickspencer3> so change is a constant in Ubuntu
[20:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:50] <rickspencer3> I hope that as the FLOSS software in general improves
[20:50] <rickspencer3> that Ubuntu will improve along with it
[20:51] <rickspencer3> but that will require some change, yes
[20:51] <rickspencer3> I hope that answers the question
[20:51] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I meant the users doing it, not the version of the distro
[20:51] <rickspencer3> so didn't answer the question ;)
[20:51] <rickspencer3> yeah, basically if a typical users is replacing a default application, that application was probably not a great choice as the default
[20:52] <rickspencer3> but our goal is to deliver a system that is useful and usable with the defaults
[20:52] <rickspencer3> deliverable on a cheap CDR image
[20:52] <rickspencer3> however, users must be free to modify those defaults as works for them
[20:53] <rickspencer3> after all, deliver Free software is our primary motivator that gets us up in the morning
[20:53] <didrocks_> (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-une-app-selection should be it for previous discussion about UNE default app, inputs are more than welcome :))
[20:53] <ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: I am running the netbook version, is there a way I can add applications to my favorites if it's not in the panel on the left?
[20:53] <rickspencer3> I run UNE on my netbook too
[20:53] <rickspencer3> I love it
[20:54] <rickspencer3> to do add to your favorites, when you find a favorite, right click on it, and you can add it to favorites from there
[20:54] <rickspencer3> you can remove from favorites in a similar manner
[20:54] <rickspencer3> long live UNE!
[20:54] <didrocks_> \o/
[20:54] <rickspencer3> did that answer the question?
[20:55] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Personally it didn't bother me much since I could just move the buttons back to the right with Gconf editor or use another theme.  However why were the buttons moved to the left in 10.04, before this feature on the right 10.10 is meant to have, has even been created?
[20:55] <rickspencer3> I don't think they were totally related
[20:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:55] <rickspencer3> I think, at the end of the day, our sabdfl just thought they were better on the left
[20:56] <rickspencer3> and after all, he's the sabdfl
[20:56] <rickspencer3> I know he thought moving them would open up room for innovation, but I don't know when he started to think of the windicator idea
[20:56] <rickspencer3> it was a surprise to me as well
[20:57] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What wasn't totally related?  Theme and button placement?
[20:57] <rickspencer3> maybe I misunderstood
[20:57] <rickspencer3> I thought you were referring to indicators
[20:57] <rickspencer3> sorry
[20:57] <ClassBot> Chopsticks asked: In the netbook version is there a way to adjust the size of the icons?
[20:57] <rickspencer3> not that I know of
[20:57] <rickspencer3> not without hacking the source, anyway ;)
[20:57] <rickspencer3> (which of course you are free to do if so motivated)
[20:58] <rickspencer3> so only two minutes left
[20:58] <rickspencer3> before I check for more questions, I should let folks here know that I try to be very accessible
[20:58] <rickspencer3> I usually take questions from folks who ping me on IRC
[20:59] <rickspencer3> and like to talk to users in that kind of setting
[20:59] <rickspencer3> so feel free!
[20:59] <ClassBot> aquarius asked: machines increasingly don't have CD drives. What's the next way to distribute Ubuntu as easily as ShipIt
[20:59] <rickspencer3> easy
[20:59] <rickspencer3> preinstalled by OEMs!
[20:59] <rickspencer3> ftw!
[20:59] <rickspencer3> shoot's he scores, freedom for everyone
[20:59] <rickspencer3> ;)
[21:00] <rickspencer3> though I suppose usb keys will still be useful
[21:01] <akgraner> Rick thanks for a great session
[21:01] <rickspencer3> thank you akgraner
[21:01] <rickspencer3> good night from Brussels
[21:02] <akgraner> And that concludes Day 2 of Open Week