[07:31] <anvo> My computer has an Intel graphics card, so is it possible to permanently exclude software updates, nvidia's in this case...?
[07:32] <bbordwell> anvo, #ubuntu for support
[07:32] <anvo> OK
[14:13] <kamusin> joaopinto, #ubuntu-bugs-announce
[14:13] <kamusin> oops, mistake
[14:24] <bilalakhtar> people, will AskMark take place on this channel?
[14:26] <rww> bilalakhtar: yes
[14:26] <bilalakhtar> rww: thanks for the info
[15:14] <WoX_> [ZeTa_]
[15:14] <WoX_> ••• IAL no actualizada, límite de usuarios sobrepasado. ( > 49 )
[15:14] <WoX_> a eso me refiero
[15:15] <ZeTa_> ¬¬
[15:15] <WoX_> jsjsjss
[15:15] <WoX_> !
[15:15] <WoX_> ciao!!
[15:15] <WoX_> parlamo e tarde
[15:16] <ZeTa_> va bene
[15:21] <killos> WoX, a que hora comienza el Q+A?
[15:27] <WoX_> killos no tengo ni la mas minima idea... Preguntale a ZeTa_
[15:27] <WoX_> [wcs] no tengo ni la mas minima idea... Preguntale a ZeTa_
[15:28] <ZeTa_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[15:28] <ZeTa_> there is all the information
[15:29] <ZeTa_> remember, the topics on the morning, are in english
[15:35] <wcs> I know n_n, I just look somebody talking in spanish
[15:35] <ZeTa_> ahahahah
[15:35] <ZeTa_> were're u from?
[15:54] <jcastro> 7 minute warning
[15:54] <Ian_Corne> It's pretty quiet in here :)
[15:54] <Ihmepupu> it is, after all, a classroom
[15:55] <cjohnston> it also hasnt started
[15:55] <wcs> is just becouse we are expecting here
[15:55] <wcs> hehe
[15:55] <bilalakhtar> has askmark started?
[15:55] <bilalakhtar> one by one, people will join this channel
[15:55] <sbc> bilalakhtar: Think it starts in 5 min
[15:56] <bilalakhtar> sbc: I also think so
[15:57] <om26er> 4min ;)
[15:57] <Resno> bilalakhtar: i dont even know why im here LOL
[15:57] <bilalakhtar> sabdfl is not on freenode (yet)
[15:57] <cjohnston> he will be
[15:57] <bilalakhtar> Resno: On this channel, you could ask ANY question you wish, to sabdfl
[15:57] <bilalakhtar> !sabdfl | Resno
[15:57] <rww> To be more precise, on #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;P
[15:57] <Resno> oh....
[15:58] <jcastro> get your questions ready
[15:58] <vineeth> finally joined the room :)
[15:58] <jcastro> so that when we start you can paste them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:58] <Sovo> when we start ?
[15:59] <bilalakhtar> Will questions be asked on this channel or #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
[15:59] <vineeth> Ugh, how do i disable all these <username> has joined messages?
[15:59] <vineeth> on xchat :|
[15:59] <jcastro> vineeth, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn
[16:00] <ongolaBoy> Sovo: in one minute
[16:00] <bilalakhtar> jcastro: Will questions be asked on this channel or #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
[16:00] <vineeth> thank you :)
[16:00] <qense> People, please chat only in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please remind to prefix your questions with QUESTION and if you want to get rid of part/join messages, use your lright mouse button
[16:00] <rww> bilalakhtar: in -chat
[16:00] <arvind_khadri> vineeth, right click on channel and hide join/part messages
[16:00] <vineeth> yeah got it, thanks man
[16:00] <bilalakhtar> arvind_khadri: Thanks
[16:01] <jcastro> Ok thanks everyone for joining
[16:01] <jcastro> While we wait a sec for mark here's how this works
[16:01] <jcastro> you're going to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:02] <jcastro> and preface them with QUESTION:
[16:02] <jcastro> like so
[16:02] <jcastro> QUESTION: What is 2+2
[16:02] <jcastro> then akgraner and I will paste them in here
[16:02] <jcastro> 2 things
[16:02] <jcastro> please don't ask questions that are solved by an easy google
[16:02] <jcastro> like "When does Maverick come out"
[16:02] <jcastro> and 2) if we miss your question please be patient and ask it again
[16:04] <jcastro> Mark isn't here yet so please stand by for a few minutes.
[16:06] <sabdfl> hello everybody!
[16:06] <jcastro> alright!
[16:06] <jcastro> please introduce yourself and I'll start with the first question!
[16:07] <sabdfl> i'm mark shuttleworth, and delighted to be here
[16:07] <sabdfl> fire away
[16:07] <jcastro> QUESTION: Will Gnome Shell be in default Maverick? If so, what will happen with Gnome Shell and Compiz? Will Compiz still work by default? If not, will there be an easy way to use Compiz?
[16:07] <sabdfl> the current release schedule puts Gnome Shell out of bounds for Maverick, but it will be packaged and available from universe
[16:08] <sabdfl> we'd encourage people to try it, and it would be great if someone put together a daily build PPA so folks who are very interested could track development and help fix bugs
[16:08] <sabdfl> it's very interesting work, and there are important new technologies, and lots of things to consider
[16:08] <sabdfl> the more folks use it and think about it, the better our decisions will be for 11.04
[16:08] <sabdfl> next?
[16:08] <jcastro> there is actually a daily ppa, someone please paste the url in -chat to share with others and we'll get it in the notes!
 QUESTION: Have you see this on brainstorm: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23490 (Solution 3, mockup) ? This would be a great feature, to select the software collection of ubuntu. And it would be extremely user friendly to have the chance to install an operating system wich support codecs, playing back dvd-s out of the box. I know it would break the current meta package system, so it would be a lot of work, but is there any
[16:08] <akgraner> chance to make it
[16:08] <sabdfl> looking...
[16:09] <sabdfl> hmm.... no
[16:09] <sabdfl> one of the really strong values we have is that two users of ubuntu should, by default, either be having the same experience, or be expert enough to understand why they are not
[16:10] <sabdfl> which is why we stick to *one* default browser
[16:10] <sabdfl> and *one* default mail client
[16:10] <sabdfl> that way, when two people who have out-of-the-box-vanilla ubuntu are talking to one another
[16:10] <sabdfl> they can say "i can't find my bookmark" and "oh, you find it there"
[16:10] <sabdfl> they can help each other, just talking about "the browser"
[16:10] <sabdfl> that has been very useful to help the community grow past experts, into a more consumer audience
[16:11] <sabdfl> if you are an expert, of course there is software centre, aptitude / synaptic, and PPA's
[16:11] <sabdfl> there's a whole world out there :-)
[16:11] <sabdfl> but for the beginning, out of the box experience, we benefit a lot from keeping it tight
[16:11] <sabdfl> it looks like a lot of work went into the design
[16:11] <sabdfl> and that's appreciated
[16:12] <sabdfl> and i wouldn't mind if someone built that and put it in universe
[16:12] <sabdfl> as a convenient way for people to make those choices
[16:12] <sabdfl> but we wouldn't take it in the installer, or default install
[16:12] <sabdfl> next!
[16:12] <jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any plans for Ubuntu to support Blu-ray movies so users can play them out-of-the-box?
[16:12] <sabdfl> aieee... i don't think that would be possible without proprietary software at the moment
[16:12] <sabdfl> i'll find out if anyone is building something like that
[16:12] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Do you have any comments about the reports that a lot of the Ubuntu rebranding work was done using proprietary design software on OS X?
[16:13] <sabdfl> it's true!
[16:13] <sabdfl> some of the artists who worked on it, work on both Mac and Ubuntu, and some of the work was done on Mac (and Windows)
[16:13] <sabdfl> c'est la vie, i don't think that detracts from the work at all
[16:13] <sabdfl> of course, the same people are helping to improve the tools on Ubuntu
[16:13] <sabdfl> and that feedback is useful
[16:14] <sabdfl> and they get teased about it a lot
[16:14] <sabdfl> but it doesn't undermine their efforts in my mind - i'm just glad to have such great people working on making it all better
[16:14] <sabdfl> next!
[16:14] <jcastro> QUESTION: Why are the window controls on the left?
[16:14] <sabdfl> to align with the future shape of the desktop
[16:14] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: You talk about integrating the menubar into the panel in UNR. will this support apps such as firefox that don't use gtk widgets?
[16:14] <sabdfl> as soon as we can make that work, yes it will
[16:15] <sabdfl> both FF and OO.o have mechanisms to support that behaviour on Mac OS
[16:15] <sabdfl> we hope they will hook into the mechanisms we're building to do it on Ubuntu too
[16:15] <sabdfl> and we'll help that happen
[16:15] <sabdfl> if you're interested, talk with cody russell, who is bratsche
[16:15] <sabdfl> on irc
[16:15] <sabdfl> next!
[16:16] <jcastro> QUESTION: Canonical is pushing some significant changes in the desktop are with the Ayatana project, such changes will have impact on upstream developers, do you plan to actively support upstream developers performing  the required changes ?
[16:16] <sabdfl> yes of course!
[16:16] <sabdfl> jcastro himself has lead one effort like that, with AppIndicators in 10.04 LTS
[16:16] <sabdfl> for which i am very grateful, as are the designers and other engineers who built it
[16:16] <sabdfl> thanks jorge :-)
[16:16] <sabdfl> in putting together that program, we did a couple of things:
[16:17] <jcastro> :)
[16:17] <sabdfl>  - we assessed the list of apps that used the systray
[16:17] <sabdfl>  - we developed APIs that would make it easy for them to use AppIndicators (mapping GtkMenu and the Qt equivalent, essentially)
[16:17] <sabdfl>  - we put together documentation
[16:17] <sabdfl>  - we emailed and irc'd with the upstreams to chat with them and get feedback on the design
[16:18] <sabdfl>  - and we had some folks just work up patches to submit upstream too
[16:18] <sabdfl> in all, it was a big effort
[16:18] <sabdfl> ted gould, jorge, mpt, cody, lots of people helped
[16:18] <sabdfl> folks from the community helped too
[16:18] <jcastro> like qense!
[16:18] <sabdfl> that's the pattern we will follow
[16:18] <sabdfl> if you have ideas about how we could do it better, chat with me or jcastro or jonobacon
[16:19] <sabdfl> but i'm bery bery happy with the work in 10.04 LTS and looking forward to 10.10
[16:19] <sabdfl> the big one for 10.10 in that vein, imo will be the global menu
[16:19] <sabdfl> but perhaps also windicators
[16:19] <sabdfl> next!
 randall in Vancouver asks: What are your thoughts on the "Linux" brand and the effect it has on the Ubuntu brand. Is it useful to try to bind the two?
[16:19] <sabdfl> linux is an awesome brand - it says powerful, freedom, evolving, energised, capable, cross-platform
[16:20] <sabdfl> for anybody who needs to hear those messages, it's the best
[16:20] <sabdfl> ubuntu says freedom, precision, reliability, collaboration
[16:20] <sabdfl> we don't say "ubuntu linux" because that would scope the message to the subset of both groups
[16:20] <sabdfl> but linux is at the heart of what we do, i don't think anybody is under any illusions about that
[16:21] <sabdfl> it grates a little when people say "ubuntu is linux", because of course the linux ecosystem is much bigger than just ubuntu
[16:21] <sabdfl> and everybody should try more of 'em: fedora, gentoo, arch, go wild
[16:21] <sabdfl> there's something for everyone
[16:21] <sabdfl> next!
[16:21] <jcastro> QUESTION,  From what I have been reading on the web, and even been told by people on IRC,  it seems quite a lot of experienced users aren't that happy with Ubuntu, and then  many of which are then using another distro instead or mainly instead, because of how things are going more commercial and Mac  OS X like for example.  Does it disappoint you that Ubuntu is starting to lose more of these kind of users?
[16:22] <sabdfl> thanks david stansby :-)
[16:22] <sabdfl> errr... not in connection with the question, though ;-)
[16:22] <sabdfl> so
[16:23] <sabdfl> i would like the most responsible, smartest, most fun, most inspired users to pick ubuntu, and that's what i and everyone else here works on
[16:23] <sabdfl> we build it for ourselves and we build it for others, equally
[16:23] <sabdfl> it has to meet our high standards, but it has to be useful for as many people as possible
[16:23] <sabdfl> sometimes, that means we leave out very cool stuff
[16:23] <sabdfl> i'm a fan of what you can to with gentoo, for example
[16:23] <sabdfl> there is no better way to learn, fast, how all the pieces fit together, and what's possible
[16:24] <sabdfl> and there are things that they can do that we can't
[16:24] <sabdfl> but i don't think that means that anyone who switches from ubuntu to gentoo is a sign that ubuntu isn't important, or worse, that ubuntu isn't interesting
[16:24] <sabdfl> it's just that there is something interesting there that they are interested in :-)
[16:25] <sabdfl> in summary: there will always be a flow of talent and energy into, and out of ubuntu
[16:25] <sabdfl> i'm happy for example when someone who is a member of ubuntu dev also becomes a DD
[16:25] <sabdfl> that's great for debian and great for us too
[16:25] <sabdfl> some people like to spin it otherwise, but it really isn't
[16:25] <sabdfl> it's a win for both projects
[16:26] <sabdfl> as for commercialism - ubuntu is MOST interesting precisely because we want to walk in that narrow space
[16:26] <sabdfl> with ethics, and openness, and transparency, and free software
[16:26] <sabdfl> AND with a commercial framework
[16:26] <sabdfl> if we can pull it off, the world is a fundamentally different place that day
[16:27] <sabdfl> i think most of the people who actually *participate* in ubuntu are motivated by that, understand that, aren't turned off by that
[16:27] <sabdfl> they want us to do it tastefully
[16:27] <sabdfl> but they want us to be successful
[16:27] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Will Kubuntu/KDE have windicators, or will that be a Gnome only feature?
[16:27] <sabdfl> i hope they do
[16:27] <sabdfl> it will be straightforward to add to KWin if the maintainers see fit
[16:27] <sabdfl> and we'd likely add it in Kubuntu
[16:27] <sabdfl> so a Gnome app running on Kubuntu feels at home
[16:28] <sabdfl> of course, then the menu would be rendered *properly*,with Qt :-)
[16:28] <sabdfl> in my blog, i said that the work was enabled by CSD, which is incorrect
[16:28] <sabdfl> it was inspired by CSD - it was thinking about CSD that inspired the idea to give that space back to the applications
[16:28] <sabdfl> the actual implementation can be done via CSD or via the window manager
[16:29] <sabdfl> and in fact, we *need* to express the windicators on the d-bus, to support the global menu case
[16:29] <sabdfl> which is what the window managers could tap into
[16:29] <sabdfl> next!
[16:29] <jcastro> QUESTION: About the notification area removal plan, how do you plan to address those who need 3rd party closed applications which may not have moved, will the notification still be available but optional ?
[16:29] <sabdfl> to be clear: the indicators aren't going away
[16:30] <sabdfl> only the old implementation, the Gnome Systray
[16:30] <sabdfl> and it will happen in 10.10 for Ubuntu Netbook, and 11.04 for Ubuntu Desktop
[16:30] <sabdfl> there will not be a way to add it back in the netbook in 10.10
[16:30] <sabdfl> there *might* be a way to add it back in the desktop
[16:30] <sabdfl> in 11.04
[16:30] <sabdfl> but i suspect not
[16:30] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: There were plans to enable RGBA transparency support by default in Ubuntu Lucid, but that was delayed to Maverick. Will RGBA transparency be enabled by default in Maverick?
[16:31] <sabdfl> i expect so, there will of course be discussions on that at UDS next week, come along or listen in / irc in
[16:31] <sabdfl> we should be able to enable it early this time because everything is lined up, and just fix bugs
[16:31] <sabdfl> talk to bratsche
[16:31] <sabdfl> next!
[16:31] <jcastro> QUESTION: randall in Vancouver asks: What do you think can be done to improve clarity and volume on the message that "Ubuntu isn't only software"? In my experience, you can get software from almost anywhere, but only Ubuntu has that missing component: community. (For example, try finding a healthy Fedora user group in your city. I'm picking on them, but could probably pick on any other distro.)
[16:32] <sabdfl> don't pick on Fedora, it's doesn't help our relationship, and they are important in the broader community!
[16:32] <sabdfl> i agree with you, it's the added dimension of people that makes ubuntu great
[16:33] <sabdfl> more generally, it's the dimension of people that makes free software great
[16:33] <sabdfl> it's not just that you can find a library of code to solve your problem
[16:33] <sabdfl> it's that it comes with a mailing list of people interested in the same problem
[16:33] <sabdfl> *that*'s what makes FLOSS great
[16:33] <sabdfl> i think we could make it easier to connect with people who are using it / building it / building on it
[16:34] <sabdfl> that would be cool
[16:34] <sabdfl> why not put some ideas together for UDS, or for Jono et al?
[16:34] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Are there plans to release the data and results from usability studies so that they can be peer reviewed?  That feedback might be useful for other projects.
[16:34] <sabdfl> i *believe* that much of that data is already public
[16:35] <sabdfl> especially when we are doing user testing on specific projects, like empathy or pidgin
[16:35] <sabdfl> but the right person to chat with is charline in the canonical design team, or ivanka
[16:35] <sabdfl> next!
[16:35] <jcastro> QUESTION: Google clearly favors #ubuntu as development system for android are there plans to work together to bring the best experience with android devices to ubuntu (both developers and users)
[16:35] <sabdfl> that's interesting
[16:36] <sabdfl> i admire what google is doing with android, even though "it's linux, jim, but not as we know it" ;-)
[16:36] <sabdfl> i'd be supportive of getting android exposed on ubuntu in a way that was natural to both android devs and ubuntu
[16:36] <sabdfl> but i don't have any brilliant ideas or master plans to do that
[16:37] <sabdfl> just an open invitation to one / some / all of you to go ahead
[16:37] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: What are your opinions on Bug 527458 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-application/+bug/527458 ) and the decision to deprecate tooltips from the panel indicators? Will tooltips come back in Maverick?
[16:37] <sabdfl> i've commented on the bug, for anyone who wants to read the thread there
[16:37] <sabdfl> in short, i think tooltips are most often a disaster
[16:38] <sabdfl> because there is a slot there, people put stuff in it
[16:38] <sabdfl> even if they don't have to
[16:38] <sabdfl> so we end up with a whole lot of really crap and useless tooltips that just clutter up the interface
[16:38] <sabdfl> and because they have tooltips, they don't do the extra work to think through the most important info to convey in the underlying asset
[16:38] <sabdfl> because hey, you can just stuff all the detail in a tooltip!
[16:39] <sabdfl> i've done it myself, in the past
[16:39] <sabdfl> i'm ashamed
[16:39] <sabdfl> but i'm cured
[16:39] <sabdfl> and so no, i don't think the tooltips will come back
[16:39] <sabdfl> but it's a 90% certainty for me, perhaps someone will convince me otherwise
[16:39] <sabdfl> but they'd have to convince a few other people, who might convince me :-)
[16:39] <sabdfl> next!
[16:39] <jcastro> QUESTION: The Edubuntu team has put a tremendous amount of work into Lucid, and has great plans for Maverick.  What do you want to see Canonical, as a company, do to promote the use of Edubuntu in schools?
[16:40] <sabdfl> we struggled with this inside Canonical
[16:40] <sabdfl> we're just not geared up to help at the individual school level
[16:40] <sabdfl> we did try a few projects
[16:40] <sabdfl> we also looked into working at the regional or national level
[16:40] <sabdfl> where there are *amazing* things happening with free software, often ubuntu
[16:41] <sabdfl> but those engagements looked more like "ubuntu in education" rather than "edubuntu" specifically
[16:41] <sabdfl> so for a while edubuntu slumped
[16:41] <sabdfl> now, it's re-energised, and that's entirely the credit of the community that's forming there
[16:41] <sabdfl> well done them
[16:41] <sabdfl> we can support that with time at conferences and integrating some of their requirements into the base
[16:41] <sabdfl> with pleasure
[16:42] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Are there more plans to port ubuntu to more handheld, mobile devices (phones, ebook readers, etc)
[16:42] <sabdfl> yes
[16:42] <sabdfl> very much so
[16:42] <sabdfl> there is a blooming, a blossoming, of linux in consumer electronics
[16:42] <sabdfl> and lots of the people building those devices want to use ubuntu
[16:43] <sabdfl> so, we're working on the things they say will make ubuntu even better for them
[16:43] <sabdfl> tools for building packages, collaborating, building images, etc for those sorts of environments
[16:43] <sabdfl> traditionally, people used very custom environments for those
[16:43] <sabdfl> but they'd prefer to use ubuntu
[16:44] <sabdfl> i'm confident people will love building devices with ubuntu
[16:44] <sabdfl> next!
 Hello Mark, I wanted to ask what ideas you have for ubuntu manual, even if it has any kind of integration in Ubuntu.
[16:44] <sabdfl> what a great project
[16:44] <sabdfl> the key thing for me will be to see how they keep up with our pace of iterations
[16:44] <sabdfl> but i think they will, just fine
[16:45] <sabdfl> they have a lot of energy
[16:45] <sabdfl> and i'm very impressed with their work
[16:45] <sabdfl> if they have integration ideas, UDS would be the right place to pitch them
[16:45] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: randall in Vancouver asks: What excites you most about the project these days? Which part of it gives you the most enjoyment and fun?
[16:45] <sabdfl> wow
[16:46] <sabdfl> well, i got a whole new job description this year :-)
[16:46] <sabdfl> so that's very energising
[16:46] <sabdfl> mainly i'm focused on the desktop
[16:46] <sabdfl> and how we reshape that
[16:46] <sabdfl> hence all the blogging
[16:46] <sabdfl> and watch out on Monday :-)
[16:47] <sabdfl> we have a lot of work to do, if we want ubuntu to be popular from devices to the desktop
[16:47] <sabdfl> and i find that work fascinating - design, engineering, economics, all in one
[16:47] <sabdfl> i'm also spending quite a bit of time on the cloud computing front
[16:47] <sabdfl> ubuntu is hugely popular on the EC2 and Rackspace public clouds
[16:48] <sabdfl> so helping to make it even better for that is fun too
[16:48] <sabdfl> people are really innovating, there
[16:48] <sabdfl> and ubuntu's minimalist "jeos" is a great base
[16:49] <sabdfl> i think we can really unleash system administrators, if we get things lined up just right
[16:49] <sabdfl> next!
[16:49] <jcastro> QUESTION: A while back it was mentioned that Ubuntu had plans for Moblin. Now that Moblin and Maemo merged to form MeeGo, what are Ubuntu's plans with the MeeGo platform? If so, will there be any overlap between MeeGo and Ubuntu netbook Edition?
[16:49] <sabdfl> quite possibly, but it's unclear at this stage
[16:49] <sabdfl> we're not boing to do an Ubuntu Moblin Edition, after all
[16:50] <sabdfl> i think Intel is doing great work, as are the old Maemo team, and their combined effort is important
[16:50] <sabdfl> but there's still a lot of dust in the air, as to how the pieces all fit together
[16:50] <sabdfl> we collaborate at many different levels
[16:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[16:51] <sabdfl> and i'd like to see more of what they are building, before i could form a firm impression of how we could collaborate more closely
[16:51] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Is there any chance for nautilus elementary becoming default? It looks great, and would highly improve user experinece.
[16:51] <sabdfl> i haven't seen it, but it seems to be generating a lot of excitement
[16:51] <sabdfl> is it packaged?
[16:52] <jcastro> there is a session for improving nautilus for UDS
[16:52] <jcastro> I am sure elementary will be brought up
[16:52] <sabdfl> can't see a package
[16:52] <sabdfl> i'll take a look during UDS
[16:52] <sabdfl> thanks for the suggestion!
[16:53] <sabdfl> rick spencer, martin pitt, sebastien bacher all do a brilliant job leading the decision process for which components get into the next version
[16:53] <sabdfl> it's always a great discussion
[16:53] <sabdfl> please join in next week
[16:53] <sabdfl> next!
[16:53] <jcastro> QUESTION: You are currently adding social networking and IM support to ubuntu (i.e. the panel), are there any efforts to expand it for other programs, like gajim, psi and xchat?
[16:53] <sabdfl> i would love them to support both the Me Menu and the Messaging Menu
[16:54] <sabdfl> but we also need to get on and fix the battery menu, and the network menu, and the bluetooth menu....
[16:54] <sabdfl> so it's a question of how we divide up our time
[16:54] <sabdfl> if they need something from us in order to integrate, we'd be happy to add it or at least discuss it
[16:54] <sabdfl> so, please encourage them to add support for those Ayatana indicators
[16:54] <sabdfl> it really cleans up the desktop nicely
[16:54] <sabdfl> next!
[16:54] <akgraner> mhall119> QUESTION: Launchpad is going to be getting better support for derivative distros, will Canonical provide any other support, like access to build servers, to unofficial child distros?
[16:55] <sabdfl> possibly
[16:55] <sabdfl> it's a reasonable request
[16:55] <sabdfl> we support PPA's already
[16:55] <sabdfl> building for a derivative distro would be straightforward
[16:55] <sabdfl> we would probably have to quota it, as we do PPA's
[16:55] <sabdfl> chat with flacoste
[16:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[16:55] <sabdfl> and bigjools
[16:55] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: What is in the future for Ubuntu's cloud computing efforts?
[16:56] <sabdfl> brilliant :-)
[16:56] <sabdfl> next!
[16:56] <jcastro> QUESTION: You say you want "the fastest browser" in 10.10. What will it be? Will it still be a (optimized) Firefox? Chromium? Some other lightweight simple browser?
[16:56] <sabdfl> we'll have a discussion at UDS
[16:56] <sabdfl> there are lots of advocates for Chromium, and Firefox is of course well established too
[16:56] <sabdfl> i don't have a view yet
[16:57] <sabdfl> and given the complexity of it, it's not something i'll BDFL :-)
[16:57] <sabdfl> next!
[16:57] <jcastro> QUESTION: what do you think about having a button in Software Center to donate to developers of software that users like? Some think this would hurt the volunteer open source community
[16:57] <sabdfl> such an interesting question
[16:57] <sabdfl> it's true that mixing money and volunteerism is likely to wilt the volunteerism
[16:57] <sabdfl> there's some great sociology research on that
[16:58] <sabdfl> so we'd have to be careful
[16:58] <sabdfl> but i'm open to the idea
[16:58] <sabdfl> i think we need to find ways to support floss projects better
[16:58] <sabdfl> and that might be one way
[16:58] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: As the range of systems using Ubuntu and the changes required to push newer technology increases each release brings issues to more and more users which were not involved on the development phase. Do you have any idea on how to address this ?
[16:59] <jcastro> (this will be the last question)
[16:59] <sabdfl> it's true - when you build it just for the people building it, everyone feels they were part of the decision
[17:00] <sabdfl> when there are millions of users who just hit "upgrade", it feels a bit like russian roulette for them
[17:00] <sabdfl> i can only say, we care about the whole user base
[17:00] <sabdfl> and work our asses off to make it great, on balance, for the most we can
[17:00] <sabdfl> and thank you all for helping!
[17:00] <sabdfl> phew
[17:00] <jcastro> sabdfl, ok the bot is about to move us along
[17:00] <jcastro> thanks for stopping by!
[17:00] <akgraner> Thanks sabdfl !
[17:00] <sabdfl> thanks jcastro, and bot, and akgraner :-)
[17:00] <ClassBot> Slides for Ubuntu Translations: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweeklucid/UbuntuTranslations.pdf
[17:01] <sabdfl> bye all!
[17:01] <jcastro> dpm: it's all yours sir
[17:01] <dpm> jcastro, thanks!
[17:01] <akgraner> Up Next - Ubuntu Translations - David Planella
[17:02] <dpm> hey everyone
[17:02] <dpm> that was an interesting session indeed
[17:02] <dpm> now let's get started with Ubuntu translations
[17:02] <dpm> [SLIDE 1]
[17:03] <dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator in Canonical, in the Community team
[17:03] <dpm> there I have the pleasure to work with Ubuntu legends such as Jorge Castro, Daniel Holbach, and least but not last our fearless leader, Jono Bacon.
[17:03] <dpm> Be very welcome to this session on Ubuntu Translations, where we'll see
[17:04] <dpm> how Ubuntu can be translated into almost any language,
[17:04] <dpm> the work of our awesome translation teams,
[17:04] <dpm> how Launchpad can be used to translate Ubuntu in a distributed manner,
[17:04] <dpm> and how to get started translating Ubuntu
[17:04] <dpm> So, without further ado...
[17:05] <dpm> [SLIDE 2]
[17:05] <dpm> Benvinguts, Willkommen, Bienvenidos, ようこそ, Welcome, 환영합니다, Bem-vindo, Ongietorri, স্বাগতম, Welkom, Mirë se erdhët, Bienllegáu, እንኳን ደህና መጡ, Вітаем, مرحبا, Dobro došli, Donedigezh vat, Добре дошли, 歡迎, Dobrodošli, 欢迎, Velkommen, Welkom, Bonvenon, Tere tulemast, Tervetuloa, Bienvenue, Wolkom, Benvido, Καλώς ήρθατε, ברוכים הבאים, Üdvözöljük, Ve
[17:05] <dpm> lkomin, Selamat Datang, Benvenuti, ಸುಸ್ವಾಗತ, Witôj, Қош келдіңіз, Esiet sveicināti, Sveiki, Selamat Datang, स्वागतम्, Velkomen, Benvenguda, Witamy, Bun venit, Добро пожаловать, Добродошли, Vitajte, Välkommen, நல்வரவு, ยินดีต้อนรับ, Hoşgeldiniz, Ласкаво просимо, خوش آمدید, Chào mừng, مەرھابا !!!
[17:05] <dpm> (if I've forgotten to welcome in your language, do write a big "welcome" in #ubuntu-classroom chat, and I'll include it here too :)
[17:06] <dpm> Ubuntu has a very diverse community, and one of the aspects this diversity is directly reflected is in the number of languages it is translated into,
[17:06] <dpm> and the communities built around them.
[17:06] <dpm> [SLIDE 3]
[17:06] <dpm> "Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice" lies at the very core of the Ubuntu philosophy
[17:07] <dpm> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
[17:07] <dpm> which is why we encourage the creation of translation communities and provide them resources to ease the process of translation into their own language
[17:07] <dpm> so that anyone, without requiring advanced technical skills, can start contributing from day one.
[17:08] <dpm> So let's try to answer some basic questions...
[17:08] <dpm> [SLIDE 4]
[17:08] <dpm> = Who translates Ubuntu? =
[17:08] <dpm> That's an easy one: Ubuntu Translators.
[17:09] <dpm> They are volunteers who organise themselves in translation teams, appointed to be responsible for the translation of a given language.
[17:09] <dpm> And they just rock
[17:09] <dpm> You can see the full list of Ubuntu translation teams here:
[17:09] <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:10] <dpm> We've currently got about 140, of about 220 registered languages for Ubuntu in Launchpad, our translation tool
[17:10] <dpm> So if there isn't an Ubuntu translation team for your language, now is the chance to create one :)
[17:10] <dpm> More on that later
[17:10] <dpm> Also very important to mention is the work of upstream translators, whose effort Ubuntu benefits greatly from.
[17:10] <dpm> Ubuntu includes the best-of-breed Open Source software of the many independent projects available, which is what we call upstream.
[17:11] <dpm> Translations are no exception, and if these upstream projects are translated outside of Ubuntu, we import and use the awesome work of upstream translators
[17:11] <dpm> Let's see some numbers about our amazing translations community:
[17:12] <dpm> nearly 18.000 translators who've submitted at least one translation,
[17:12] <dpm> coming from more than 240 countries.
[17:12] <dpm> A default Ubuntu installation contains about 160.000 translatable messages,
[17:12] <dpm> which can go up to 475.000 when adding non-default apps such as GIMP, Inkscape, etc.
[17:13] <dpm> And here's an overview of how well translated Ubuntu Lucid is in each language: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dpm/ubuntu-10.04-translation-stats.html
[17:13] <dpm> So you see that there's a lot of work to do, and _you_ can help in making Ubuntu better supported in your language.
[17:13] <dpm> Let's see how...
[17:13] <dpm> [SLIDE 5]
[17:14] <dpm> = How is Ubuntu translated? =
[17:14] <dpm> We use our very own translations tool: Launchpad Translations
[17:14] <dpm> Launchpad Translations allows you to easily translate projects online
[17:15] <dpm> and seamlessly build and organise translation communities around them.
[17:15] <dpm> It also allows translating Operating Systems, Ubuntu being the most evident example.
[17:15] <dpm> You can start translating Ubuntu here:
[17:15] <dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:16] <dpm> There you'll see a list of translatable applications and documentation, ordered by priority and ready to translate
[17:16] <dpm> [SLIDE 6]
[17:16] <dpm> Alternatively, you can go directly to translatable applications in Launchpad from your desktop.
[17:17] <dpm> If you open an application and go to Help > Translate this application...,
[17:17] <dpm> your browser will be started and it will take you to the Launchpad Translations page for that application.
[17:17] <dpm> Which is pretty neat
[17:17] <dpm> You can try this: open Gedit, go to "Help > Translate this application..." and see it for yourself.
[17:17] <dpm> On the browser window that opens you can start submitting translation suggestions from day one.
[17:18] <dpm> This will take you to the translation page in your preferred language
[17:19] <dpm> which you can then click on and you'll see the list of translatable applications for
[17:19] <dpm> in Launchpad, using the standard translations terminology, these are called templates
[17:21] <dpm> and are the translatable units translators work with
[17:21] <dpm> I think as we're talking about Launchpad and the next question is related, I'll just take it now
[17:22] <ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: Could you please give links to tools that I could use to make translating easier?
[17:22] <dpm> I'd recommend you to try to using Launchpad for online translation
[17:23] <dpm> it is really easy and flexible
[17:23] <dpm> and it allows saving your work, even before it is reviewed, facilitating the QA work
[17:24] <dpm> that said, if you prefer translating offline, Launchpad Translations is flexible enough to let you download PO files (text files used for translations)
[17:24] <dpm> to be used in offline translation tools
[17:24] <dpm> These files are standard, so you can use any PO file editor available out there:
[17:25] <dpm> Virtaal, POEdit, Lokalize, Gtranslator, ... there are quite a few out there
[17:25] <ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: Are there any offline translation tools that intergrate with Launchpad Translations?
[17:26] <dpm> so I think the last comment answers that one :)
[17:26] <dpm> yes
[17:27] <dpm> ok, let's move on...
[17:27] <dpm> [SLIDE 7]
[17:27] <dpm> = How can I contribute? =
[17:27] <dpm> As in any Open Source project, the important thing is communication.
[17:28] <dpm> While everyone can submit translation suggestions in Launchpad,
[17:28] <dpm> they will need to be reviewed by Ubuntu translation teams before being used.
[17:28] <dpm> We do not only want to provide the best translated OS, but also the best quality of translations.
[17:30] <dpm> So we also encourage translation teams to communicate through any means appropriate
[17:30] <dpm> most teams use a mailing list
[17:30] <dpm> but others also forums, IRC, etc.
[17:31] <dpm> and most of them have also got a wiki page in the Ubuntu namespace
[17:31] <dpm> where they coordinate their work
[17:31] <dpm> So the next step in contributing to Ubuntu Translations is to get in touch with the translation team for your language,
[17:32] <dpm> and tell them you'd like to contribute.
[17:32] <dpm> It's easy: you can just find them on
[17:32] <dpm>     https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:34] <dpm> On that page, you can just click on the links under the "Team/Supervisor" column and they will take you to the Launchpad page for the team
[17:34] <dpm> You see that finding the language is easy, it's on the column on the left
[17:34] <dpm> and most translation teams are named
[17:34] <dpm> "Ubuntu <language> translators"
[17:35] <dpm> where <language> is the name of the language they translate into
[17:35] <dpm> on their Launchpad page you'll find all the info you'll need to get in touch with them
[17:35] <dpm> If there isn't a team for your language yet, you should definitely start one
[17:36] <dpm> You can do it by following these simple steps:
[17:36] <dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
[17:36] <dpm> it is a one-off step, which shouldn't take long
[17:37] <dpm> and after the new team has been appointed, you can start translating in Launchpad straight away
[17:37] <dpm> If that step gets too technical for you, do not worry
[17:38] <dpm> You can always get in touch with the global translations community and ask for help or advice, which is always a good idea
[17:38] <dpm> Also if you want to start any discussion on Ubuntu Translations
[17:39] <dpm> In true Ubuntu spirit, everyone is welcome there, and you'll get to know lots of interesting people from all over the globe :)
[17:39] <dpm> Here's how to get in touch with the global translations community:
[17:39] <dpm>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact
[17:40] <dpm> [SLIDE 8]
[17:40] <dpm> = Q&A =
[17:40] <dpm> So I hope that that gave you a taste of how translation works in Ubuntu and how you can join our awesome translators.
[17:41] <dpm> Now feel free to ask any questions about anything related to translations.
[17:41] <dpm> Bring them on!
[17:42] <dpm> gepatino asked: " Can you use launchpad translation tools to translate projects outside ubuntu? what about projects that are not open sourced?"
[17:42] <dpm> Sure, translation in Launchpad is not limited to Ubuntu
[17:42] <dpm> if you go to http://translations.launchpad.net/
[17:43] <dpm> you'll see that there are two main categories of things you can translate:
[17:43] <dpm> * Operating Systems: the category where Ubuntu falls
[17:44] <dpm> * Projects: where things like the Ubuntu Manuak, Getting Things GNOME!, Miro and lots of other projects can be translated
[17:45] <dpm> the external projects do not need to be related with Ubuntu
[17:45] <dpm> or even hosted in Launchpad
[17:45] <dpm> although hosting them there will give them the benefits of full integration
[17:46] <dpm> Launchpad also allows translating projects with different licenses
[17:46] <dpm> and with different permissions
[17:47] <ClassBot> IdleLernid asked: What about translation of Ubuntu wiki pages. I am thinking of a side by side type view of a wiki page that you can click a submit button and it then creates the new translated page if it doesn't already exist
[17:47] <dpm> That's a very cool idea.
[17:48] <dpm> Unfortunately that's not supported by Launchpad. Launchpad Translations standardizes on the most widely used translation format in the open source world: gettext
[17:48] <dpm> that means that everything fed to Launchpad needs to be converted to gettext first
[17:49] <dpm> so you'd need some kind of intermediate conversion to wiki (e.g. MoinMoin) -> gettext, and then the other way round
[17:49] <dpm> That said, Launchpad is Open Source, and the sky is the limit :)
[17:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:50] <dpm> Launchpad Translations developers will be more than happy to mentor anyone wanting to implement new features, as they are currently focusing on developing other really cool stuff: better upstream integration
[17:51] <dpm> https://dev.launchpad.net/
[17:51] <ClassBot> vocx asked: translations are very country- or language-specific, so what does the "global translation community" do?
[17:52] <dpm> Generally the global translation community has representatives from all translation teams, and the local translation coordinators for each language are requested to be subscribed to the global mailing list
[17:52] <dpm> There we discuss the issues that affect all teams
[17:52] <dpm> and also post announcements
[17:53] <dpm> it's the best place to be kept up-to-date of the latest developments on Ubuntu Translations and where new cool stuff and building a global community are discussed
[17:54] <dpm> For those of you familiar with LoCo teams
[17:54] <dpm> the ubuntu-translators mailing list, which is the main communication channel for the Ubuntu Translations community
[17:54] <dpm> is a bit like the loco-contacts mailing list
[17:55] <ClassBot> MaPo asked: It's possible to get economic support to power some native language translations? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskito
[17:55] <dpm> I'm not sure I understand the question, economic support from Canonical?
[17:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:56] <dpm> I think it's best to leave volunteer communities around translations to organise themselves and not become dependent
[17:56] <dpm> They can get the best free support the translations community can provide in getting a translation project started
[17:57] <dpm> I'd encourage you to let them know that, and that they can get in touch with us at
[17:57] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/
[17:57] <dpm> (or contact me directly)
[17:58] <dpm> watercool asked "Exist some api for Ubuntu Translations??"
[17:59] <dpm> No, there isn't one yet, although as I say, developer community contributions are always welcome. We've got a community project ongoing to provide part of the API
[17:59] <dpm> A reporting API
[17:59] <dpm> Check out the discussion at UDS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/UDS
[17:59] <dpm> and the spec https://dev.launchpad.net/Translations/Specs/ReportingAPI
[18:00] <dpm> ok, I think that was all
[18:00] <dpm> Thank you everyone for coming
[18:00] <dpm> and I'll now let you in the expert hands of Stéphane Graber, our Edubuntu hero
[18:00] <akgraner> Thanks dpm!
[18:03] <akgraner> one sec highvoltage and will get you voiced
[18:05] <jcastro> there we go, sorry!
[18:05] <highvoltage> Good evening everyone!
[18:05] <highvoltage> Stephane couldn't make it this evening so I'll be presenting this Edubuntu session.
[18:05] <highvoltage> I'll provide an overview of the Edubuntu project and try to not to keep it too long so that there's enough time for questions. I'm going to try to keep it concise so if anything needs further explenation, feel free to ask after the introduction!
[18:06] <highvoltage> For those who have checked our website, we're aware that it's out of date, we're working on a new website that will be live and up to date before the end of the month!
[18:06] <highvoltage> So, where does Edubuntu come from?
[18:06] <highvoltage> The first Edubuntu ideas were discussed at the Ubuntu Down Under UDS in Australia in 2005. Later that year those ideas were solidified at the Edubuntu Summit in London, the first release was in October 2005 - Edubuntu 5.10.
[18:06] <highvoltage> The project has gone through quite some changes since it was initially founded. Initially, Canonical did most of the work. Oliver Grawert worked full time on Edubuntu and did a lot of the important initial groundwork.
[18:07] <highvoltage> Today, Edubuntu is purely a community project. We make use of Canonical's build infrastructure for packages and iso images, and we're fully integrated with the Ubuntu Community.
[18:07] <highvoltage> We have a council that consists of 6 members who are responsible for deciding on Edubuntu's technical and community direction, it's also a delegate for the Ubuntu Technical Board and Community Council.
[18:07] <highvoltage> Other Edubuntu teams may have other leaders that may not necessarilly be part of the Edubuntu Council, although all Edubuntu teams report to the Edubuntu Council.
[18:08] <highvoltage> That's quite a bit to read! But before I take questions, I should probably give a brief overview of what Edubuntu actually is!
[18:08] <highvoltage> and apologies for not having slides, we'll do something more fancy for the next openweek, I promise!
[18:08] <highvoltage> Our current scope of work is to package and maintain educational apps in the Ubuntu archives, allowing Ubuntu users to easily access the best in open source educational apps that's available.
[18:09] <highvoltage> We're also responsible for the Edubuntu installation disc, which aims to be generic turn-key solution for classrooms and standalone machines used in homes and schools.
[18:10] <highvoltage> Currently Edubuntu includes educational suites such as GCompris, Tux4kids, KDE-Edu and a few other loose apps. We also aim to make it super-easy to install an LTSP server, making it easier to manage smaller computer environments on tight resources.
[18:10] <highvoltage> For the past few releases we haven't put much energy into server-side apps that may be useful in classrooms, but we aim to focus a bit more on that over the next few releases.
[18:11] <highvoltage> I hope that this provides a good and quick overview of where Edubuntu is today and what we aim to do.
[18:12] <highvoltage> Apologies if some things sounded weird, English is my second language.
[18:12] <highvoltage> Let's do some questions!
[18:13] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: what is LTSP, and how does it benefit Edubuntu?
[18:14] <highvoltage> LTSP is the Linux Terminal Server Project. When installed on an Ubuntu machine, it allowes you to boot other machines on the network from that machine, allowing a few or many users to effectively use one machine
[18:15] <highvoltage> This means that a school, library or NGO could set up a computing environment very quickly, since they only need to install and maintain one machine instead of a whole bunch
[18:16] <highvoltage> lower setup and maintenance work and costs often make LTSP a great choice for low-resourced areas or even really big sites like universities.
[18:17] <highvoltage> Ready for more questions! (feel free to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat by prepending QUESTION: to your question)
[18:17] <ClassBot> waltercool asked: How is Edubuntu handling the Microsoft Adversiting on schools? Because the other day, i tried to install Ubuntu on my cousin' computer and have problems, because on his school are teaching Microsoft Office
[18:18] <highvoltage> It's indeed a known problem, and recently there has been some progress in that area
[18:18] <highvoltage> some curriculums are set on teaching and using MS Office XP or 2003 or 2007 specifically
[18:19] <highvoltage> the problem is that once the students graduate it would probably be an outdated version anyway.
[18:19] <highvoltage> The ICDL (International Computers Drivers License) Foundation has it's ICDL course which is recognised internationally and covers MS Office
[18:20] <highvoltage> the difference is that they cover the concepts more than which clicks to memorize in order to accomplish a task
[18:20] <highvoltage> They have a course called OpenICDL that is pretty much the same as ICDL but which covers Linux systems and OpenOffice.org rather than MS Office.
[18:21] <highvoltage> Having worked with some pretty Microsofticized Education Departments before, I realise it's a hard sell to make them change anything.
[18:21] <highvoltage> but the best you could probably do in your area is creating some awareness around things like ICDL and OpenICDL.
[18:23] <highvoltage> Larger than that it's a very tough problem to target directly, MS Office remains very popular and I'm fairly confident that more changes will happen over the next few years that will put some dents into this problem.
[18:23] <highvoltage> It's certainly not a very short-term problem, one that I can't see us fixing withing a 6 or 12 month cycle. I hope that answers your question!
[18:24] <ClassBot> Ihmepupu asked: Is there information online about successful Edubuntu projects? (Sorry for the simple question, I couldn't find any with quick googling)
[18:24] <highvoltage> it's a very relevant question!
[18:24] <highvoltage> our old (or current, rather) website has been static and boring for years now
[18:24] <highvoltage> it's actually the oldest drupal installation I have which is more than 4 years old now!
[18:25] <highvoltage> with our new website we aim to feature community better, because Edubuntu is about people and learning and not just about some technology
[18:25] <highvoltage> we want to feature stories (good and bad) from our users and people who have implemented Edubuntu.
[18:26] <highvoltage> we want to know what works and what doesn't, and show off some of the innovation that educators to in schools that gets almost zero exposure anywhere currently
[18:27] <highvoltage> so in short, we don't have a place for great use cases yet, but towards the end of the month we'll be launching the new site. bencrisford who is also in this channel is leading up the renewed Edubungu Advocacy group (look it up on Launchpad.net)
[18:27] <highvoltage> part of the Edubuntu Advocacy project is to gain user stories and make them heard.
[18:28] <ClassBot> vocx asked: What is your perspective on higher education? I mean, I don't have a need for children's toys, I need scientific software, finite-element-analysis, sparse-matrix solvers, advance plotting facilities. Do you think the Edubuntu project can take this into account, or will it remain a elementary education suite?
[18:28] <highvoltage> Most of the software that the Edubuntu disc currently installed is aimed at kids from 4-18
[18:29] <akgraner> remained of his question:  of Edubuntu can be made for different ages.
[18:29] <highvoltage> it's probably not ideal for higher education, however, that doesn't mean that we don't care about higher education
[18:29] <highvoltage> Our longer-term goals is to include and maintain more higher education packages for Ubuntu
[18:30] <highvoltage> tertiary institutions usually have better budgets and hence also better sysadmins, infrastructure and other resources
[18:30] <highvoltage> so they probably won't need to rely on a complete turn-key solution such as the Edubuntu installation disc
[18:30] <highvoltage> in their case, we'd want to stay out of their business on how they want to implement they're Ubuntu solution
[18:31] <highvoltage> and focus on keeping the best of tertiary education packages up to date and in great shape
[18:32] <highvoltage> The last 12 months we haven't been doing much of that, since our main goal was to get the Edubuntu installation disc in great shape. We're quite happy with the progress so far and plan to gradually increase our scope.
[18:32] <highvoltage> we're happy to get feedback from users in tertiary environment so your feedback is greatly appreciated.
[18:33] <highvoltage> The Ubuntu installer supports a feature called "tasks" which allows you to choose the typical uses for the system being installed
[18:34] <highvoltage> in the future we plan to have different "tasks" pre-defined so that a user could choose options such as "Kindergarden classroom computer" or "Kids home computer" or "Scientific workstation" and then the installer would install the appropriate packages automatically
[18:34] <highvoltage> I could go on about this a bit, but I'd like to give other questions some chance as well...
[18:34] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Can I get Edubuntu DVDs from Shipit?  If not, is there somewhere I can get them free or cheap?
[18:35] <highvoltage> Unfortunately, not at this moment. In the past, Shipit did send Edubuntu discs, but Canonical dropped Edubuntu and Xubuntu discs due to the high costs of printing, administering and shipping the extra discs
[18:36] <highvoltage> cheap discs are usually available from many image downloaders and shippers in many countries.
[18:36] <highvoltage> There are also companies such as Zareason that will even pre-install en Edubuntu computer and sell it to you.
[18:37] <highvoltage> Possibly with the next release, we can make Edubuntu shine brightly enough and convince Canonical do at least do a limited run.
[18:38] <ClassBot> simar asked: I am a student of computer science and is intrested in linux development and programming  .Is Edubuntu will be more beneficial for me than simple Ubuntu ...
[18:38] <highvoltage> We get many similar questions. "Is Ubuntu better for x, or is Edubuntu?"
[18:38] <highvoltage> Edubuntu is built from the same software repositories as Ubuntu, and all the exact packages are available in both.
[18:39] <highvoltage> The Edubuntu disc is basically an Ubuntu build but with a few more packages installed by default.
[18:39] <highvoltage> When you install Ubuntu, you can even turn it into an Edubuntu system by simply installing the Edubuntu packages.
[18:40] <highvoltage> In short, there's really not much difference (if any) between what an Ubuntu system and an Edubuntu system can do. They merely provide different defaults.
[18:41] <highvoltage> All of the technical work that the Edubuntu team does goes directly into the Ubuntu project
[18:41] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I installed edubuntu-desktop into a Ubuntu 10.04 RC VM that later also got upgraded to the final. Whilst having my very brief and not proper look, I noticed the Me Menu, maybe only since Ubuntu was also installed. Anyway surely since the  me menu isn't really for young children, it shouldn't really be in the default install of  Eubuntu if  it is? Same thing for the Music Store if it is.  Also of course different versions
[18:43] <highvoltage> Indeed, a Me menu will be pretty useless to you if you're too young to even be allowed to register for the social networking sites that power it
[18:43] <akgraner> of Edubuntu can be made for different ages.
[18:43] <highvoltage> however, some schools deploy their own microblogging services such as Statusnet that also integrates with the Me menu
[18:44] <highvoltage> so instead of trying to dictate it one way or another, we include some administration tools such as Pessulus and Sabayon that allows an administrator to easily remove items such as the Me menu by default for all users
[18:45] <highvoltage> Disabling the Ubuntu One music store is also as simple as removing a package.
[18:45] <highvoltage> As for having it by default, we're open to discussing it!
[18:45] <ClassBot> ZachK_ asked: What is an easy way to get involved with this project? Sorry if that's not a good question....
[18:46] <highvoltage> that's a very good question indeed, and one that I often have some trouble answering :)
[18:46] <highvoltage> mostly because there are so many levels to get involved in
[18:47] <highvoltage> the easiest way is to join our meetings every Wednesday (Europe: Eveneing, US: Morning) meetings and get a feel for our current problems
[18:47] <highvoltage> you can also then introduce yourself there or to the edubuntu-devel mailing list
[18:48] <highvoltage> once we're familiar with your skills we can also suggest some work for you. whether you have educational, marketing, coding or web skills we'll have work for you :)
[18:48] <highvoltage> IRC and mailing list details are available on http://edubuntu.org/Community
[18:49] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: What programs/programming has been done specifically by or for Edubuntu?
[18:49] <highvoltage> Currently, just the Edubuntu Menu Editor. Some other programs such as Sabayon have received extensive testing and bug fixing by members of the team
[18:50] <highvoltage> LTSP Live CD functionality was also specifically written for Edubuntu, but will make it to other derivatives in the future.
[18:50] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Oh got a administration tool,  that has the same name as that Gentoo based distro,  Sabayon?
[18:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:51] <highvoltage> Yes, the same name, but completely different project. Just as there's a gentoo file manager in Ubuntu that's unrelated to the Gentoo distribution :)
[18:51] <ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: I think collaboration among educational groups is important. Have you thought about expanding into web-services?
[18:51] <highvoltage> Right, so we're discussing that at the Ubuntu Developer Summit next week as well
[18:52] <highvoltage> most of those tools are web-based, and web-based tools are often a nightmare to maintain package-wise
[18:52] <highvoltage> we're going to have a session where we investigate creating and packaging tools that will install and manage web based collaboration suites
[18:53] <highvoltage> rather than managing it completely via the package management system
[18:53] <highvoltage> this should take load off package maintainers and also make it possible for users to get updates faster, although I'm not sure it's been done yet so it is a bit experimental. I'll be able to tell you more about plans on this area after next week :)
[18:54] <highvoltage> The first package we'll be targeting is Moodle
[18:55] <highvoltage> Debian is considering orphaning it so we'll be looking at creating the tools for that collaboration suite first.
[18:55] <highvoltage> 19:54 <ClassBot> There are no questions in the queue.
[18:55] <highvoltage> Any further questions before we run out of time?
[18:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:56] <highvoltage> stgraber just entered, who does a lot of work on Edubuntu. any questions for him perhaps?
[18:56] <stgraber> hey everyone, sorry I couldn't make it and thanks a lot highvoltage for replacing me here !
[18:56] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Where can we find more information about the Edubuntu plans for Maverick?
[18:57] <stgraber> currently we have some plans on gobby.ubuntu.com, a list of ideas is also available on the wiki (URL in a sec) and some specs have been registered for discussion at UDS next week
[18:57] <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/Brainstorming/Maverick
[18:58] <highvoltage> Yep, that URL contains ideas we brainstormed so long. Next week at UDS some of them will be planned and formalized.
[18:58] <highvoltage> (oh sorry stgraber did mention that before)
[18:59] <highvoltage> There's some openweek sessions later this week on how to attend UDS remotely
[19:00] <highvoltage> if you're interested in joining our sessions, it would be great if you familiarize yourself with the developer summit this week
[19:00] <highvoltage> That concludes our class! Thanks to everyone who joined it!
[19:01] <rrnwexec> Thanks everyone for joining this session. It's my first ever, so if goof up, please be kind :)
[19:01] <rrnwexec> First, a little bit about me:
[19:01] <rrnwexec> I'm Randall Ross, widely known as the Ubuntu Vancouver "Buzz Generator" and the Community Manager of the Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo.
[19:01] <rrnwexec> I have been using Ubuntu on my personal computing equipment since 2006. Before that, I used a long string of GNU/Linux based distro's dating back to approximately 1996, and before that many UNIX variants.
[19:02] <rrnwexec> I am a strong FLOSS advocate and supporter and I believe in the need to fix Bug #1 quickly.
[19:02] <rrnwexec> I believe that Ubuntu represents the best chance we have to do that. But, we have to hurry.
[19:02] <rrnwexec> Vancouver BC Canada? Remember the Winter Olympics? They were here! Watching NHL hockey recently? We apparently have a team in the playoffs ;) Want to find us? We're on the west coast of Canada.
[19:03] <rrnwexec> Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo is my main Ubuntu focus (aside from this talk of course). Trust me, it's enough to keep me busy. Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo is currently over 330 people in Vancouver. We meet at least 4-5 times a month, sometimes more. Our events are very diverse and fun: parties (real ones), restaurant social events, presentations, support events.
[19:03] <rrnwexec> So what I'll present today are some lessons learned from "The School of Hard Knox" on how this city was energized. These tips and tidbits will hopefully help you get more people excited about Ubuntu in your city or town. I hope to offer some practical advice on how to get started, or in other words what works to help "catalyze" the spread of Ubuntu.
[19:04] <rrnwexec> Having said that, and with that intro, all of this is from my point of view. (After all, I'm the one giving the talk.) You might not agree with everything I will say, but please hear me out. Suspend your disbelief.
[19:04] <rrnwexec> Ok... Let's dive in and see how the water feels!
[19:04] <rrnwexec> Marketing Ubuntu Locally.. Why Should you Bother?
[19:04] <rrnwexec> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
[19:05] <rrnwexec> You like Ubuntu. That's why you're here. You like to help other people. You want to see Bug #1 fixed in your lifetime (possibly so your kids won't have to suffer the way you or I did.)
[19:05] <rrnwexec> You want to be surrounded by people who "get" Ubuntu (in both senses of the word).
[19:06] <rrnwexec> What I'm Not Going to Cover
[19:06] <rrnwexec> This is not about geeking out. This is about getting people excited. Everyday humans. I'm not going to talk about building a "l33t team of Ubuntu hackerz" or code jockeys.
[19:06] <rrnwexec> I really do believe that we have to step way beyond the traditional boundaries of this project and expand our reach by at least a factor of 10. That means we need to focus on the other 99.9% of the population: Everyday Humans.
[19:06] <rrnwexec> A few words about Ubuntu "ratholes". Ratholes are time-wasters. Topics (sometimes debates) that spring up in the Ubuntu (and FLOSS) "community" that steal our energy. Though interesting, we need to maintain focus. I'll give you 3 examples. (There are more). Don't be suckered into any of these:
[19:06] <rrnwexec> "Ubuntu is just another version of Linux". I'm going to assume that you understand why Ubuntu is different.
[19:07] <rrnwexec> "A LUG is the same as an Ubuntu group". It's not.
[19:07] <rrnwexec> "Ubuntu isn't really free". I'm going to assume you've not fallen for that (or any other) FUD that stifles passion.
[19:07] <rrnwexec> A bit about terminology. In order to talk about something it is important to get the terminology right, and to express it clearly. I will talk about "community" a lot. (I just did above.) When I said "community" what came to mind?
[19:07] <rrnwexec> If you're like many people, you thought of the forums, online discussions, blogs, etc. That's not what I mean by community at all. I will use the definition in the most local sense. Community = Those people geographically close to you within a short walk, bicycle, or bus ride.
[19:08] <rrnwexec> A rule of thumb I use is that if you can't get to a place in under 30 minutes on a local bus, it's likely not really part of your community. Of course, there are exceptions but that's my guide. Think walking distance. How good are your legs?
[19:08] <rrnwexec> On of my pet peeves (personal opinion of course) is that we have these things called "LoCo's" that aren't really "local" or "communities". Sure, it's great that we have them and they do serve extremely important roles but I feel that Ubuntu advocates need to get much more local and focused.
[19:09] <rrnwexec> Take Canada for instance. 7 time zones, dozens of distinct languages and cultures. Cities and towns here each have their own unique dynamics, economies, priorities.
[19:09] <rrnwexec> Not to pick on the fine folks in any national "LoCo" but how can we possibly expect any national or even regional Ubuntu team to be effective at marketing at a local level. (If that were even its goal). And, Canada is simpler that many countries in that regard.
[19:09] <rrnwexec> So, first and foremost I advocate a much more literal interpretation of the term LoCo. Think of warfare (I know, strange analogy when talking about humanity but hear me out). Name a war that was won with air power only. None that I can think of. Now, think of our current LoCo structure (mostly national and regional). That's "air power".
[19:10] <rrnwexec> The LoCo's that I envision are on the ground. They take cities block-by-block and neighbourhood-by-neighbourhood. By take, I mean spread awareness of Ubuntu and help people regain control of their information tools. They embrace those around them and give them the "Huge Ubuntu Bear-hug"!
[19:10] <rrnwexec> A Thought Experiment
[19:10] <rrnwexec> Imagine that Bug #1 was fixed in your city/town. What would that look like?
[19:11] <rrnwexec> Well, first it means that you should be able to walk down your street, or any random street in your city and ask people whether they use Ubuntu. The majority should say "Yes", the minority that does not should still at least know what Ubuntu is.
[19:11] <rrnwexec> You should be able to go to a local computer store and ask the clerk for a computer that is running Ubuntu. S/he should have a many to choose from. You should be able to walk into your local library and borrow some books on Ubuntu.
[19:11] <rrnwexec> You should be able to buy an Ubuntu magazine or three from your local bookstore. Your roomate should be using it. Your family too. If you have a child in school, the computers they learn on should be running Ubuntu.
[19:12] <rrnwexec> That sounds easy enough, right? Ok. Let's get started!
[19:12] <rrnwexec> Why start with marketing?
[19:12] <rrnwexec> Marketing is what makes or breaks a product. If you don't have it, then people don't know about you. If people don't know about you, then you enter that spiral. <Insert operating system that failed here.>
[19:12] <rrnwexec> Can you think of an inferior operating system that has become popular through brute-force marketing? Can you think of a system that is hostile to its users, yet wildly popular? See the power of marketing.
[19:13] <rrnwexec> Watch what happens when it fails, but please not on this project!
[19:13] <rrnwexec> What gets people excited about something?
[19:13] <rrnwexec> They get excited when there's buzz. When they can feel energy and passion when they are near it, they get excited. When they sense that it is really worthwhile and can make an immediate impact in a practical and positive way, they get excited.
[19:13] <rrnwexec> When they feel something really important is happening and they aren't "in the know" they get motivated to learn. Excitement breeds excitement.
[19:14] <rrnwexec> Your job as a person interested in energizing (catalyzing) a town or city is to ensure that that energy field always remains strong. Note that this does not mean that you always have to be the *direct* source of that energy. All it means is that you are always on the lookout for a dip in energy level and are ready to make a few phone calls or send a few emails to key Ubuntu people. It also means that you're always ready to help with a project or
[19:14] <rrnwexec>  two to help Ubuntu energy stay high. You're always ready to catalyze.
[19:15] <rrnwexec> I'm going to walk you through a series of steps that you might use to begin catalyzing and creating buzz about Ubuntu in your town.
[19:15] <rrnwexec> Step 0. Realize
[19:15] <rrnwexec> Realize that Ubuntu is "the next big thing". Realize that Wikipedia was once very small and Encyclopedia Britannica was once a powerful monolithic reference volume. (Skill testing question: Where are they now?)
[19:15] <rrnwexec> Realize that "No town is too small." You will always be able to find at least one other Ubuntu user. As soon as you do, you have a group (by definition).
[19:15] <rrnwexec> Realize that in order to change something, you have to be the first change. Ghandi had it right.
[19:15] <rrnwexec> Step 1. Use Ubuntu.
[19:16] <rrnwexec> Don't try to skip this step. I mean really use it everyday, for everything. Make it the centre of your computing world. If you can't take this step, then it is going to be difficult to advocate and market it.
[19:16] <rrnwexec> People will sense it if you are reluctant yourself. People will sense if you have obvious knowledge gaps. And if they do, they may perceive it's because Ubuntu must be difficult to use. (Not that I'm talking about average humans, not computing super-heroes).
[19:16] <rrnwexec> Step 2. Start Energizing Your Personal Circle
[19:17] <rrnwexec> (You'll need the strength and support later.)
[19:17] <rrnwexec> Your friends and family are *really* important. If they don't share at least some of your passion for Ubuntu, their lack of passion may impact you later. Or, as the "computer gal" in your family you may find yourself caught in a nasty tech support scenario of competitor's systems, draining your energy.
[19:17] <rrnwexec> An anecdote:
[19:17] <rrnwexec> At "Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo" meetings I always ask this question in my presentations. "Of your three closest friends and family members, how many use Ubuntu?" The number of people that say 0, or 1 shocked me initially.
[19:18] <rrnwexec> Can you guess how many % said 0 or 1?
[19:18] <rrnwexec> Please give your answers in chat ;)
[19:18] <rrnwexec> I would have thought/hoped that in a room filled with Ubuntu people that the majority would already be surrounded by Ubuntu users. That wasn't the case. It still isn't, but it is getting better. Keeping the focus or spotlight on a problem does help. I begin to sound like a broken record at times. Focus. Focus!
[19:18] <rrnwexec> Step 3. Don't Assume Someone Else is Doing It.
[19:19] <rrnwexec> Assume is a compound word ;)
[19:19] <rrnwexec> You probably don't have a LoCo in your city/town. Ask around. Search the web. Look for Ubuntu meetings/events. Did you find anything? Probably not, and if you did, you are lucky. So, you're now in a spot where you likely have a bunch of random and friendly Ubuntu users in your town with no real way to connect to one another.
[19:19] <rrnwexec> Step 3a: Let's Rewind and Assume that you found a local Ubuntu group. Wow!
[19:19] <rrnwexec> Track them down. Go to their meetings. Get to know them and their culture. What are their goals? Are they making progress? Do they have any focus and energy on marketing? Do they need help? It's important to really understand a group before trying to help it, lest you offer the wrong help.
[19:20] <rrnwexec> Step 4. Don't wait for (or expect) "support from the top".
[19:20] <rrnwexec> I put this step early in the process but it really belongs everywhere.
[19:20] <rrnwexec> Ubuntu is a community project. Always try to look at your efforts through that lens. Do it because you want to do it and because it's the right thing to do. If you sit back and wait for a barrel of cash (or monkeys, or CD's) from Canonical (or any other Ubuntu supporter/sponsor for that matter), it may be a long wait. If the local marketing and advocacy you want to do requires a large infusion of cash, you might be on the wrong track, taking on 
[19:21] <rrnwexec> Step 5: Become a Connector (or ask someone to be one) so You Can Spread the Fun
[19:21] <rrnwexec> Ubuntu users and advocates need someone to help them find each other. Be that person. It starts with one connector. If you're not comfortable connecting people together, perhaps enlist the help of your most sociable friend. They may be up for an interesting challenge.
[19:22] <rrnwexec> Step 6. Find a Free (or nearly free) Place to Gather
[19:22] <rrnwexec> Start small. If you have a local coffee shop or community gathering place in your neighbourhood, that's a great venue for your first marketing group meeting. You can likely host a lot of initial meeting in informal settings like this. Make it an easy spot to get to for you and your neighbours. Really make it easy, otherwise you'll be burning energy just to get to meetings.
[19:22] <rrnwexec> Step 7. Send Word Out in Your Neighbourhood
[19:22] <rrnwexec> It's easy: "Hey fellow Ubuntu users! We gather at <insert local coffee shop> here on the first Monday of every month at 7pm to help spread Ubuntu. Hope you'll join us!" Keep it friendly, human, and clear. (Like Ubuntu).
[19:23] <rrnwexec> This type of notice can be put on local public bulletin boards, in libraries, on a pole on (pedestrian) busy intersections, bus stops, etc. (Make sure it's allowed though. Don't come back to me later and say "You made me break the law." Check all local regulations. Find friendly places to post things).
[19:23] <rrnwexec> You can also sometimes get free listings on community web sites, newspapers, and entertainment magazines. Your initial goal is to attract people that are looking for this kind of stuff, so don't worry if you don't have a massive ad campaign. Some people will find you. The people that find you first are sometimes the ones that have the most interest. It's important to commit to a regular meeting. People like to know there's recurrance.
[19:23] <rrnwexec> Step 8: Look for Unconventional Places
[19:24] <rrnwexec> I'm going to take a guess that many of you are somewhat technical. You found your way to Lernid, to IRC, to this session. That took some technical prowess. So, this step may seem interesting.
[19:24] <rrnwexec> When looking for others that are "into Ubuntu" you will obviously find some in tech circles, universities, and places like that. You can try to attract them, but in reality, they will find you sooner or later. Instead, try harder to attract people from places/settings that are unconventional.
[19:24] <rrnwexec> Find them at community festivals. Find them at your local library (more on that later). The people you attract from outside the "Ubuntu tech crowd" will likely have really fresh ideas and language that will make your marketing come alive. You need the connectors in "strange places".
[19:25] <rrnwexec> An anecdote from Ubuntu Vancouver: I'm always extremely happy when someone new finds us, but even more so when they've come to us from a strange place. We have kayak instructors, teachers, musicians, construction workers, doctors... the list goes on and on. The only people we don't seem to have in our group yet are shepherds and lighthouse keepers, but I'm looking.
[19:25] <rrnwexec> I'll take a short pause here to field a few questions
[19:25] <ClassBot> balto_ asked: What if there are not enough people with the same interest in the walking distance? shouldn't we use the global village?
[19:26] <rrnwexec> Good question. My view is that we start as local as we can as our first step.
[19:26] <rrnwexec> If we cannot find people this way, by all means reach out to chat rooms, discussion boards, etc.
[19:26] <rrnwexec> even use google search to find people that are talking about Ubuntu in your 'hood.
[19:27] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:27] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Bug 1 yeah, but surely  it shouldn't all be about Ubuntu,  other distro's here and there as well?  Be honest with people give them a choice of distro when trying to convert them from Windows, and that kind of thing?
[19:27] <rrnwexec> I like this question, and it's one that I get from time to time here too.
[19:27] <rrnwexec> My job as Ubuntu Buzz Generator is to promote Ubuntu.
[19:28] <rrnwexec> I love all FLOSS. I really do.
[19:28] <rrnwexec> but...
[19:28] <rrnwexec> buzzining and marketing Ubuntu is where I'm at. This is the best chance I can see for FLOSS to go completely wild.
[19:28] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:28] <ClassBot> takelifeeasy asked: To help solve bug 1 and as business drive most things in life, what are your thoughts about creating a “community” solely helping businesses transitioning off of the Microsoft drip.  Ubuntu seem to concentrate on the end user and there seems to be a gap for a community to help business (note I am excluding Canonical as I am thinking of a user community promoting Ubuntu rather than a commercial comp
[19:29] <rrnwexec> I think this is a very important goal.
[19:29] <rrnwexec> Having said that though, beware the challenges of a community-focussed group approaching businesses
[19:30] <rrnwexec> A more professional group would be needed.
[19:30] <rrnwexec> People with companies, deeper experience, etc.
[19:30] <rrnwexec> You may of course find a small business or three to help... perhaps that's a way to get started.
[19:31] <rrnwexec> But I really feel it starts with energy on the friend and neighbour level.
[19:31] <rrnwexec> (Some of these people will be business owners and managers)
[19:31] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:31] <ClassBot> waltercool asked: People Nerby of Empathy seems helping to make a Ubuntu community shared places (public internet connection)?
[19:31] <rrnwexec> That is awesome!
[19:31] <rrnwexec> thank you for bringing it up
[19:32] <rrnwexec> ok... so we all know where "Peaople Near By" came from?
[19:32] <rrnwexec> Hint: Cupertino.
[19:32] <rrnwexec> ironically the purchasers of those competitor systems don't seem to know how to really uses it.
[19:32] <rrnwexec> *use it
[19:33] <rrnwexec> so, we have an opportunity to show them
[19:33] <rrnwexec> in cafes and crowded places please turn that feature on
[19:33] <rrnwexec> and tell everyone you know to do it
[19:33] <rrnwexec> put an Ubuntu looking name in your nick line ;)
[19:33] <rrnwexec> promote the Ubuntu brand :)
[19:34] <rrnwexec> I'm going to continue the presentation... and take more questions in a bit.
[19:34] <rrnwexec> Step 9: Have a Few "Meetings"
[19:34] <rrnwexec> I call them meetings, but really the early ones will likely be casual conversations and get-togethers. (That's actually a good thing.) Meetings and formality can scare people away. Just get people talking. See what interesting ideas emerge. Catalyze the conversation by asking them how you could make more people aware of Ubuntu.
[19:35] <rrnwexec> After a few get-togethers you may notice an interesting idea: some fun marketing work. (Yes those two words really can go together). The key is to select something fun. For example, maybe you and your new friends want to put up some posters about Ubuntu, or hand out some Ubuntu CD's. Maybe you want to go give a talk to a school or a local club or group. If you have a few passionate people you can make this happen.
[19:35] <rrnwexec> One caveat: I think that early on, your projects should be simple and require minimal logistics. You should also focus on spreading the word and getting more people into your group (and by osmosis into Ubuntu), so make sure that everything you hand out or present gives the audience some way of finding you later... your meeting times, location, etc. Make sure that all your effort includes a strong dose of "let's grow our group". That's fuel.
[19:36] <rrnwexec> (** Note: It's also good to set up a very simple wiki or web page with an easy URL that you can give to people you meet. This allows you to have a single place to point people for updates and information.)
[19:36] <rrnwexec> Step 11: Don't Get Distracted
[19:36] <rrnwexec> It's tempting to try to "Boil the ocean". It's also tempting (though equally ecologically insane) to try to "pave the earth". Keep your efforts focussed and simple.
[19:36] <rrnwexec> Ok, since I've mentioned web page earlier, I want to caution you about ploughing all your scarce new-found friend energy into web development. (This is a rat-trap when your group is young, and maybe even longer.) Use the KISS principle. (Keep It Simple Stupid). The ubuntu.com wiki is a good way to get something up fast. You can create a page or your group. Read and follow the guidelines and learn a bit about it's layout first though.)
[19:37] <rrnwexec> Another form of distraction is in losing sight of your community. If the energy you are expending is spread too far and wide on areas outside your community, then you're not going to be able to focus on the people near you. The people near you are the ones that matter the most to your daily life.
[19:38] <rrnwexec> Distraction alert: Back to web sites. They're great ways to get to "connected" (in the wired sense) people all over the world.
[19:38] <rrnwexec> How many of the people in your town will find you on the web? Likely some. If you have a super flashy web site or one with deep functionality, will it attract more? Probably not. Are there people in your community that are unable to use the web effectively? Absolutely. Are these people valuable? Absolutely! So, get to them another way. If your nearest friends and neighbours haven't heard of Ubuntu, you can fix that without ever creating one line
[19:38] <rrnwexec> Step 12: You're Making Progress
[19:38] <rrnwexec> You've had some regular meetings. You've added a few (or many) more people to your Ubuntu group. Now it's time to take it up a notch. Get a somewhat larger project underway, again around advocacy and marketing. If you're fortunate to have enough people already to do some Ubuntu presentations and demos, start organizing some. They are great advocacy too. They are also very useful and valuable to people outside Ubuntu because they show them what's
[19:39] <rrnwexec> Step 13: You Have a Real Group!
[19:39] <rrnwexec> People are starting to hear about you. You continue to market Ubuntu and your group's place in it. The news of your demos and presentations spreads. Congratulations! You are now real, and you've taken a major step to an Ubuntu community. Where you were once "the only one", you now have friends. Ubuntu friends! Your group is having regular meetings.
[19:39] <rrnwexec> Step 14: Giving More People More Reasons to Join You
[19:39] <rrnwexec> As you attract more and more people, you'll begin to notice that there are new opportunities. Each new person that joins your group brings in new possibilities. The possibilities that open up to you will be in part related to your town or city and what passions people have.
[19:40] <rrnwexec> Find out what their passions are, and try to find fun ways for them to express that passion. Do you have a graphic artist in the group? Have her present some topics on Graphic Arts using Ubuntu to your group, and extend invitations out to other artists.
[19:40] <rrnwexec> Gimp, Inkscape, all that good stuff. Did you attract some programmers? Have them work on a program that will benefit the group. Maybe it's a custom application that does something useful like keeping track of your group's growth...  which leads me to:
[19:40] <rrnwexec> Step 15: Make a Map!
[19:40] <rrnwexec> Understanding where your group is will become very important. It helps you optimize meeting locations. It also helps you understand where your marketing is working, and where it's not. With a good map you can focus scarce resources. Make a map. Always keep an eye on it. (Note that I'm not advocating that you have home addresses of all your group or community. General areas work well: postal codes and zip codes).
[19:40] <ralemi> .
[19:41] <rrnwexec> Step 16: Is This Building Buzz?
[19:41] <rrnwexec> If you have people regularly meeting and enjoying snazzy Ubuntu demos, you're going to start to get buzz. But don't stop there. Not everyone wants to learn about computers all the time (so I'm told). Have some other events too. Some of them should be purely social.
[19:42] <rrnwexec> Parties and social events without a computer in sight. (Hint: Release Parties should be real parties!) Use those events to talk about other aspects of Ubuntu and the positive energy of the idea. Use them to build local community. Meet your neighbours. Spread your passion.
[19:42] <rrnwexec> Step 17: Expand and Reach Out
[19:43] <rrnwexec> The number one problem is awareness. You need to get the word Ubuntu out into your community. Here are some ideas that have worked in mine:
[19:43] <rrnwexec> a) Small posters and flyers in neigbourhood places
[19:43] <rrnwexec> b) Small stickers with a tiny URL pointing to your group page
[19:43] <rrnwexec> c) Adopt businesses. Find places that like to host your events and help them in return for their hospitality
[19:43] <rrnwexec> d) Embrace other groups that are established in your community
[19:44] <rrnwexec> e) Using the meetup.com online channel. It's a superb meeting management engine, promoting face-to-face community. Added bonus: the network effect.
[19:44] <rrnwexec> Step 18: Remove the Barriers
[19:44] <rrnwexec> "I'd like to use Ubuntu but...."
[19:44] <rrnwexec> a) There's no support. Build a community support event that occurs regularly (some people call these Installfests)
[19:44] <rrnwexec> b) I can't buy it in the stores. Identify local independent stores that can provide Ubuntu certified equipment and partner with them.
[19:45] <rrnwexec> c) It's too much work to learn. Ask the teachers in your group to engage their passion and run some community classes
[19:45] <rrnwexec> d) I'm happy with what I have. This is a tough(er) one. But, if you have built a lively and diverse community around Ubuntu, people will begin to care less about their favourite OS. The real parties are with your group. Remember: have real parties.
[19:45] <rrnwexec> Step 19: Don't Expect Everyone to Join Your Group Immediately
[19:46] <rrnwexec> People are in different stages of life. Their timing may not match yours or the latest realease cycle. They may have significant barriers that prevent them from getting involved (or even in test-driving Ubuntu). That's ok.
[19:46] <rrnwexec> Over time they'll come to a realization that this project is "the next big thing" and that might get on bandwagon. They will. Until that happens, focus on people that easier (more receptive) to change.
[19:46] <rrnwexec> Step 20: Have Fun
[19:46] <rrnwexec> I can't emphasize this enough.
[19:46] <rrnwexec> Step 20: Have Fun
[19:47] <rrnwexec> Do it for fun, and not for money. Do it because it feels good to help others and to spread something that's worthwhile. When the fun stops, the party's over.
[19:47] <rrnwexec> What does fun look like?
[19:47] <rrnwexec> There's this:
[19:47] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Surely it would be a bad thing really  if  Ubuntu gained about as much market share as Windows has now on the Desktop? Imagine developers of other distro's who also contribute upstream, how annoyed  loads of them would probably be?  So ideally distro's should work more together, and ideally a few popular distro's should have the big 80% or so desktop market share, if any.
[19:47] <rrnwexec> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2722/4065495885_d6950d1a59_m.jpg
[19:48] <rrnwexec> and this!
[19:48] <rrnwexec> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/4200762208_c2f4b80978_m.jpg
[19:48] <rrnwexec> (Question: Do they look like they're having fun? ;)
[19:48] <rrnwexec> I'll take some more questions now
[19:49] <rrnwexec> sebsebseb: Thanks. I don't thing that's something we need to be too worried about at the moment.
[19:49] <rrnwexec> Think 92% (Windows)
[19:50] <rrnwexec> we have a long way to go.
[19:50] <rrnwexec> When we get to 70%, let's revisit ;)
[19:50] <rrnwexec> <next question>
[19:50] <ClassBot> waltercool asked: How can i make the step 2, when your friends are fans of World of Warcraft, DoTa (Warcraft 3) or other Windows Games? Bug #1?
[19:50] <rrnwexec> Thanks and good point.
[19:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:51] <rrnwexec> The avid gamers I know swear that Ubuntu has no games.
[19:51] <rrnwexec> But, we're strating to prove them wrong
[19:51] <rrnwexec> not only that, but we've spun up an Ubuntu Vancouver Games Group... to make sure we can always showcase and build the best games
[19:51] <rrnwexec> this group is making real progress locally.
[19:52] <rrnwexec> the key is: find the good games and demo them!
[19:52] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: comment really, I've found wearing an ubuntu-branded shirt in public gets me connected to people who have heard about it and have questions
[19:52] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:52] <rrnwexec> OOO!
[19:52] <rrnwexec> perfect.
[19:52] <rrnwexec> This happens to me a lot. Some days when I wear my Ubuntu polo shirt, people (nice people) approach me to say hi
[19:53] <rrnwexec> At first I was a bit startled
[19:53] <rrnwexec> then I learned a trick ;)
[19:53] <rrnwexec> Always carry business cards that point back to meetings of your group ;)
[19:53] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:53] <ClassBot> nealmcb asked: are there neighborhood sub-groups are in your loco?  How often do they meet?
[19:53] <rrnwexec> We are currently encompassing metro-Vancouver
[19:54] <rrnwexec> meaning we have some municipalities that are a bit farther than the 30 minute rule.
[19:54] <rrnwexec> and that's ok!
[19:54] <rrnwexec> they are amazing people and friends.
[19:54] <rrnwexec> I expect as we get denser, we'll see evenmore locality
[19:54] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:55] <ClassBot> ubuntoogle asked: How can we contact you?
[19:55] <rrnwexec> email. randall@executiv.es
[19:55] <rrnwexec> (note that i'm not really in Spain ;)
[19:55] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:55] <ClassBot> nealmcb asked: Do you have a Step 10?
[19:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:55] <rrnwexec> very funn
[19:55] <rrnwexec> *funny ;)
[19:56] <rrnwexec> <next question please>
[19:56] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: about those 99.9% non-geeks, most of them aren't going to care about gimp, inkscape, or any other software, how do you make them want to join your Ubuntu group?
[19:56] <rrnwexec> Ah. Good one!
[19:56] <rrnwexec> Focus on the result, not the tools
[19:56] <rrnwexec> Show them things like: "How to make a greeting card for your Mom"
[19:56] <rrnwexec> her day is coming, remember?
[19:56] <rrnwexec> <next question>
[19:57] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: don't forget http://loco.ubuntu.com/events
[19:57] <rrnwexec> yes, great mention of that. we do use that too... we're starting to use it more.
[19:57] <rrnwexec> and the dev's are doing great things with it. Expect more features soon.
[19:57] <rrnwexec> <next please>
[19:57] <ClassBot> JR0cket asked: I have started trying to build a buzz within an existing community, so I already know many of their interests.  It must be hard to do this if you dont know or have common interests?
[19:58] <rrnwexec> Ok, this will be the las question
[19:58] <rrnwexec> You have something in common with Ubuntu.
[19:58] <rrnwexec> start with that
[19:58] <rrnwexec> and if not the software, start with the Humanity
[19:58] <rrnwexec> ok a few closing words ;)
[19:59] <rrnwexec> I hope you've found this interesting and maybe even somewhat useful. As "Buzz Generator" for Ubuntu Vancouver it just wouldn't be a complete talk without me saying: If you're ever out our way, please do look us up and enjoy one of our parties.
[19:59] <rrnwexec> Our friendly team of Ubuntu Ambassadors is always ready to give you a HUB. (Huge Ubuntu Bear-hug.) Speaking of which, this whole adventure has been made more fun by our Ubuntu Vancouver's First Ambassador Rex Alemi.
[19:59] <rrnwexec> Rex: thank you! And I want to also thank all my friends and supporters in Ubuntu Vancouver. You rock!
[19:59] <akgraner> Thanks! rrnwexec  - Great Session!!
[19:59] <rrnwexec> For all you people tuning in from towns and cities all over this world, you now know what you have to do: Get your neighbours excited about Ubuntu! Please hurry.
[19:59] <rrnwexec> :) the end.
[19:59] <akgraner> You rock!  Thanks again!
[20:00] <akgraner> up next is the  - Proactive Security Demonstration - Kees Cook
[20:01] <akgraner> kees, if you are ready the floor is yours
[20:01] <kees> hello!
[20:01] <kees> this is going to be fun; I'll be using an EC2 ubuntu system to demo security features in Ubuntu.
[20:02] <kees> my name is Kees Cook, and I'm on the Ubuntu Security team.
[20:02] <kees> I'm going to give some examples of what security features ubuntu has, based on our list here:
[20:02] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features
[20:03] <kees> before I get started, just a quick show of hands in the -chat channel, who is new to that page, and who has read it before?
[20:03]  * kees checks for lurkers... :)
[20:04] <kees> okay, cool.  looks like we need to make more people aware of that page.  :)
[20:05] <kees> anyway, to get started with this, I'd like everyone to ssh to the EC2 instance I have running.
[20:05] <kees> ssh -C guest@ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com
[20:05] <kees> the password is "guest", and it will drop you into a read-only "screen" session
[20:05] <kees> where you can follow along and watch me type commands, see output, etc.
[20:06] <kees> I'll pause here a minute to let people get online.  You should see my  Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week "Proactive Security Demonstration"  banner in an 80x25 terminal once you're in.
[20:06] <kees> QUESTION: RSA key fingerprint is 4b:0d:08:3f:cd:7a:3f:ce:04:00:71:a8:c7:e6:b6:31?
[20:06] <kees> yup
[20:07] <kees> okay.  I'm going to be wandering around in the Features list, since some things are easier to demo that others.
[20:07] <kees> however, I wanted to call attention to our regression test suite:
[20:07] <kees> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/qa-regression-testing/master
[20:07] <kees> it's large, so I've extracted the tests I'm going to use:
[20:07] <kees> http://people.canonical.com/~kees/demo/
[20:07] <kees> you can follow along on your own system if you want, or you can watch the EC2 session.
[20:08] <kees> basically, these tests attempt to validate as many of the Ubuntu security features as possible.
[20:09] <kees> (oh, also, please feel free to ask questions as we go, and I'll either answer right away, or say that I'm delaying it until later)
[20:11] <kees> okay.
[20:11] <kees> so, here goes in the EC2 session
[20:11] <kees> in the "qrt" directory are the tests I linked to above
[20:11] <ClassBot> nealmcb asked: can we somehow replay this demo for friends later?
[20:11] <kees> this test builds and tests a whole stack of kernel security tests. the next for glibc, and finally gcc (the compiler)
[20:12] <kees> now, each test can be examined, but I wanted to look at just a few.
[20:12] <kees> so, here's a quick one:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#No%20Open%20Ports
[20:13] <kees> "what is listening by default?"
[20:13] <kees> netstat -lpwut
[20:13] <kees> will show that.
[20:13] <kees> I have apache and ssh listening because I installed them, and DHCP is there too.  so, yeah, it's all good.
[20:13] <kees> moving on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Hardening
[20:14] <kees> this is a large catch-all that the qrt stuff attempts to test.
[20:14] <kees> a direct example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Non-Exec%20Memory
[20:14] <kees> this is to see that data cannot be executed.  it stops a huge class of memory corruption vulnerabilities.
[20:15] <kees> in the "nx" subdirectory is a tool that specifically tries to execute code from data areas.
[20:15] <kees> we'll use the "stack" test, since it's the most well understood in general
[20:15] <kees> so, here we see it attempting to run code from the stack, but the kernel stops it.  You can see the report from "dmesg" about the failure.
[20:16] <kees> without "nx", it would just return.  you can see that with "mmap-exec", which is a way to set up a memory region to execute data...
[20:16] <kees> in this case, the test tool expects to return.
[20:17] <kees> so, even some attack manages to break a piece of software and tries to inject their code, they're going to have a hard time of it since there are very few places where the kernel won't just kill the program out-right.
[20:17] <kees> moving on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#ASLR
[20:17] <kees> this randomizes process memory so an attack can't guess where to even begin their memory corruption attack.
[20:18] <kees> if I look at two instances of the "cat" process's stack location, I can see they're in different locations on two different runs.
[20:18] <kees> bfec5000 vs bf909000
[20:18] <kees> but, we also want: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#/proc/$pid/maps%20protection
[20:19] <kees> I shouldn't be able to see another user's memory maps (in this case, root's, for process 1 -- init)
[20:19] <kees> next: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Stack%20Protector
[20:20] <kees> the Ubuntu toolchain enables the "stack protector" to detect overflows.
[20:20] <kees> without it, an overflow is uncontained, as we see with the stack-protector-off program
[20:20] <kees> if we look in gdb at this...
[20:20] <kees> we see it's trying to execute at 0x41414141.
[20:21] <kees> and that's "AAAA" (we can see from "man ascii")
[20:21] <kees> we don't want an attacker to be able to jump to arbitrary locations, so the stack protector (gcc's -fstack-protector) is always used.
[20:22] <kees> in the case of the -on binary, it shuts down instead of allowing the process to continue
[20:23] <kees> you can see that glibc is killing it off an screaming loudly "*** stack smashing detected ***"
[20:23] <kees> next example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Fortify%20Source
[20:23] <ClassBot> jdstrand asked: will you be making your screen session available online (eg via script of similar?)
[20:24] <kees> jdstrand: yup, I've got "script" running for that purpose.  :)
[20:24] <kees> so, fortify source is similar to the stack protector, but it covers a LOT of other things.
[20:24] <kees> I'm going to look only at "format string protection", since it's kind of wild.
[20:25] <kees> if you see during the compile, gcc yelled about an unsafe use of a format string.  i.e.  printf(variable); instead of printf("%s",variable");
[20:25] <kees> so we can run it...
[20:25] <kees> we see that the format string is being accidentally expanded.
[20:26] <kees> and in the case of "%n", this can allow an attack to write to memory locations.
[20:26] <kees> in this case, it's just exploding, but it could be manipulated.
[20:26] <kees> so, with the "fixed" version, it's still got the bug, but %n gets caught
[20:27] <kees> the fortify source protections are really cool, I think.  :)
[20:27] <kees> next up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#0-address%20protection
[20:28] <kees> this got a lot of attention recently due to the popularization of "kernel NULL pointer attacks".  Ubuntu has been protected since 8.04 from this stuff.
[20:28] <kees> we can see the bottom limit of what memory can be used (64k here)
[20:28] <kees> and this test validates that it can't map memory below that 64k.
[20:29] <kees> if we try, we see that it rejects it.  no way for an attack to map low memory and then exploit a kernel bug to gain root there.  :)
[20:29] <kees> relatively new feature: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#Block%20module%20loading
[20:29] <kees> I called this out in particular because not a lot of people know about it.
[20:30] <kees> one way that attackers really make someone's life miserable is by injecting evil kernel modules once they're root.  (though really, if they're root, boy does that person have trouble)
[20:31] <kees> this /proc/sys setting controls if modules can be loaded at all.  I'm not actually going to change this setting since I'm not sure if EC2 to hate me afterwards.  :)
[20:31] <kees> if you set it to "1" it can't be set back to 0, so it's a one-way toggle for after you've booted a system.
[20:32] <kees> now, moving on to another slightly longer example.
[20:32] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#AppArmor
[20:32] <kees> this is the MAC system that can really tightly isolate processes.
[20:32] <kees> in this case, I'll confine an apache host.
[20:32] <kees> so, the demo server is running: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/
[20:33] <kees> and i've written an insane PHP script: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.phps
[20:33] <kees> it takes arguments, e.g. http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=info
[20:33] <kees> and we can see files with it: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/etc/motd
[20:34] <kees> but since it's unsafe, we can run other stuff too: http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id
[20:34] <kees> so, to protect ourselves from this kind of evilness, we can enable the apache profile I wrote...
[20:35] <kees> so, here's a running apache instance with the profile active.
[20:35] <kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/ still works
[20:35] <kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=info  still works
[20:35] <kees> but this does not:
[20:35] <kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id
[20:36] <kees> and we see the rejection from apparmor in the dmesg output.
[20:36] <kees> we could add back the shell (dash) and "cat", to see files again, but "id" would be blocked...
[20:37] <kees> let's see if I can do this live...
[20:38] <kees> http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/etc/motd  works again
[20:38] <kees> and  http://ec2-184-72-13-215.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/unsafe.php?q=/dev/null;id  doesn't.
[20:39] <kees> so, this has been a bit of a fire-hose of examples and script and such, but I wanted to leave some time here on the back-half for questions, or any areas I could drill down into, etc.
[20:40] <kees> anyone got any questions about this, the general security feature list, security in general, etc?
[20:41] <ClassBot> JR0cket asked: security newbie - all the security measures shown are standard in Ubuntu desktop and server?
[20:41] <kees> yes, everything here is standard to ubuntu and all the derivatives.
[20:42] <ClassBot> Resno asked: So, for general use what are things we can do to better secure ourselves from attacks?
[20:42] <kees> in case, the compiler hardening (stack protector, fortify, etc) are all built into the compiler so even locally compiled stuff gains the protections.
[20:42] <kees> in general, things are pretty safe.
[20:42] <kees> I tend not to trust my browser
[20:43] <kees> so I enable the AppArmor profile for firefox.
[20:43] <kees> you also want to make sure you've actually got NX working on your system.
[20:43] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I don't really understand this session, but I know PHP scripts can be rather insecure when not coded properly,  so basically Apparmor can help secure such scripts on an Apache web server?
[20:44] <kees> that's one of many ways to use AppArmor, yes.  You'll want the libapache2-mod-apparmor package installed.
[20:44] <kees> and you'll want to examine /etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.apache2.mpm-prefork.apache2
[20:44] <ClassBot> CodyR asked: Why use AppArmor over Selinux?
[20:44] <kees> it includes /etc/apparmor.d/apache2.d/ where you can write custom profiles, etc.
[20:45] <kees> both SELinux and AppArmor work on Ubuntu
[20:45] <kees> we just use AppArmor by default because it's so much easier to use.
[20:45] <ClassBot> JR0cket asked: AppAmor looks great, but where can I see lots more (Ubuntu) examples?
[20:46] <kees> for apparmor in general, see /etc/apparmor.d/ all the default profiles are in there.  for more the "apparmor-profiles" package has some examples
[20:46] <kees> there's information about writing profiles too
[20:46] <kees> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor
[20:46] <ClassBot> yltsrc asked: howto get/enable firefox profile?
[20:47] <kees> oh! yes, it comes disabled by default, but:  sudo rm /etc/apparmor.d/disable/*firefox*; sudo service apparmor reload   will do it
[20:47] <kees> be sure to read the profile; it blocks a lot of stuff.  :)
[20:48] <ClassBot> yltsrc asked: apparmor profiles for chromium|epiphany|etc.?
[20:48] <kees> there aren't yet, but at UDS, we plan on working on chromium a bit.
[20:48] <ClassBot> CodyR asked: Is AppArmor better or worse than other similar mechanisms such as SELinux / GRSecurity kernel patch? Does it offer anything else / additional?
[20:49] <kees> as jdstrand mentioned in -chat, for the firefox profile, this is probably easier:  sudo aa-enforce /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.firefox
[20:49] <kees> AA is just different from SELinux and grsecurity's RSBAC
[20:49] <kees> AA and RSBAC try to confine process, and SELinux tries to confine data, is how I think of it.
[20:49] <ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What firewall to use  in Ubuntu is the kind of question that will come up in #ubuntu every now and again.  Then it's like you can learn how to configure iptables or install a graphical firewall such as gufw and enable it.  For a home user is there really a need to do anything when it comes to firewall and Ubuntu?  Is it enough to rely on whatever is set up by default in Ubuntu for security, and a built in router firewall.
[20:50] <kees> it's inaccurate on all counts, but the differences are subtle.
[20:50] <ClassBot> virtuald asked:  how do firefox apparmor profile work with extensions and plugins?
[20:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:51] <kees> I think firewalls tend to get in the way of things, and generally don't really help security when you're running services.  firewalls don't block a bug in a web server, for example.
[20:51] <kees> but, if you want to keep safe anyway, ufw (or gufw) is _great_.
[20:51] <kees> I think learning to use ufw is way easier than iptables directly.
[20:52] <kees> "how do firefox apparmor profile work with extensions and plugins?"
[20:52] <kees> if the plugin doesn't try to access any files outside of ~/.mozilla or run any extra programs, it usually works just fine.
[20:53] <kees> that said, you'll want to be running "aa-notify" or watching your dmesg output for hints when things get blocked that you didn't want to be blocked.
[20:54] <kees> sounds like we're out of questions for now.  if you think of any more or generally want hang out, please join us in #ubuntu-hardened on IRC or feel free to email me at kees@ubuntu.com.
[20:54] <kees> thanks everyone for joining in and participating!
[20:54] <akgraner> Thanks kees!
[20:54] <ClassBot> huntz0r asked: Nice session, but a lot of it went way over my head! :-)   is there any place you would recommend to help swot up on some of the things covered?
[20:55] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features has a lot of pointers
[20:55] <kees> I would also read:
[20:55] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags
[20:55] <ClassBot> nealmcb asked: do you have any way of knowing which features matter the most in the wild?
[20:55] <kees> yes.  NX is without a doubt, #1.
[20:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:56] <kees> there are tons of logic mistakes in webservers and scripts, but NX will block a lot of further escalation
[20:56] <ClassBot> yltsrc asked: is it possible to setup aa-notify to send emails?
[20:56] <kees> I'd put a MAC system, like AppArmor at #2 for servers.
[20:56] <kees> but then fortify+stack protector, etc.
[20:56] <ClassBot> JR0cket asked: are all new apparmor profiles packaged in the apparmor-profiles package, or will they be seperated out? something for UDS?
[20:57] <kees> we separate profiles into the package that ships the binary.  apparmor-profiles is really just for non-production testing
[20:57] <kees> 19:56 <+ClassBot> yltsrc asked: is it possible to setup aa-notify to send emails?
[20:58] <kees> not presently, but I bet it wouldn't be too hard to add.  :)
[20:58] <kees> okay, I'm out of time!  thanks again everyone!
[20:58] <akgraner> Thanks again kees and everyone who joined the session
[20:59] <akgraner> kees, session concludes todays Open week session hope to see you all back here tomorrow 1500 UTC Kernel Q&A