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dholbachDevelopment and MOTU Q&A Session in 20m06:41
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dholbachhello everybody!07:00
dholbachwho do we have here for the Q&A session?07:00
dholbachmaybe let's start with a quick round of introductions07:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Packaging and MOTU Q&A - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach, living in Berlin, interested in making Ubuntu Development more exciting :)07:01
dholbachwho else do we have here?07:01
gotunandani am here07:01
dholbachjust turned the moderation off07:01
dholbachso please speak up, when you're here and let's do some introductions :)07:02
gotunandannobody else ?07:02
gotunandani saw your dent on identi.ca and popped up here !07:02
dholbachnice gotunandan :)07:02
dholbachI'm sure we have a few shy lurkers among the 154 people in here :)07:03
jk-ok, Jeremy Kerr here, living in Perth, Australia07:03
gotunandanstill need to use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for the questions ?07:03
dholbachhey jk-07:03
jk-heya dholbach07:03
dholbachno no, we'll just chat in here07:03
dholbachare you excited about maverick? :)07:04
jk-i am in a constant state of excitement07:04
gotunandanyeap... and more keen on joining in the "fun" in some way07:04
dholbachawesome - I set up a vm for maverick already :)07:05
dholbachdid you guys bring any questions or is there anything you were wondering about packaging, ubuntu development, motu, tools, processes, etc?07:05
jk-kinda - I see that a package has been dropped (due to FTBFS), and would like to adopt it07:06
jk-so maybe that's more of a 'process' type issue07:06
gotunandan<QUESTION> What would I need to start with to help with packaging ? I have already done some basic packaging and I have a ppa on launchpad as gotunandan. But not sure whom to approach to get actively involved in helping the MOTU07:06
macodholbach: better a vm than your actual system O_O toolchain freeze scary07:06
dholbachok, let's go through these one by one07:07
dholbachjk-: cool - which package is it?07:07
dholbachmaco: definitely - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases is your friend :)07:07
dholbachjk-: I found it here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/0.6.1-107:08
dholbachand it seems to have built on i386: packages that are architecture-independent, such as a bunch of python scripts are just built on i38607:09
macogotunandan: have you seen harvest http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest ? its dholbach's "find low hanging fruit for motu-wannabes" site07:09
dholbachmaco: this one is not functional right now - I hope to get the new harvest site up soon though07:10
gotunandanmaco: I have heard of it, not seen it. Having a look07:10
jk-dholbach: but not built for lucid?07:10
macodholbach: oh07:10
dholbachUsually the https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/+publishinghistory page shows if it was removed or something07:10
macodholbach: what happened to the prettiness rockstar made last UDS? it never got uploaded?07:10
dholbachjk-: it was built in karmic, then it never changed afterwards07:10
* maco tries to remember +publishinghistory07:11
jk-i see07:11
dholbachmaco: it was improved, but it's not deployed yet07:11
dholbachjk-: we don't rebuild all packages for a new release - it'd probably take weeks :)07:11
dholbachwe just "copy them over"07:12
dholbachjk-: is there anything wrong with the package right now?07:12
* jk- wonders why it's not appearing in the repo then07:12
dholbachok, let's see about that07:12
jk-possibly quite off-topic now though :)07:12
dholbachno no, that's fine07:12
dholbachfirst of all: you're right :)07:13
persiaIt's a bit off-topic, but the binary was probably removed due to a FTBFS with current tools, as a result of a supportable-binaries spec in lucid.  This affected ~600 packages.07:13
dholbachdaniel@miyazaki:~$ LC_ALL=C sudo apt-get install -s python-creoleparser07:13
dholbachReading package lists... Done07:13
dholbachBuilding dependency tree07:13
dholbachReading state information... Done07:13
dholbachelky: Couldn't find package python-creoleparser07:13
dholbachoh, that's interesting, let me test-build it07:13
persiadholbach: Fix your nick-completion :)07:13
* elky tilts her head wondering...07:13
dholbacherrrrrr, that was xchat-gnome-auto-completion07:14
dholbachsorry about that - I didn't even press "tab" :)07:14
dholbachI just copied/pasted07:14
elkyThat's  not a very nice feature then07:14
dholbachnot, not really07:14
ToyKeeperxchat -> settings -> preferences -> input box -> [ ] Automatic nick completion (without tab key)07:14
persiaIt's more helpful than it ought be: file a bug :)07:15
dholbachok, so I just  apt-get source creoleparser; sudo pbuilder build creoleparser*.dsc07:15
* elky hugs regular xchat and goes back to what she was doing.07:15
gotunandanmaco: yes seen it now. Cannot really fathom where to go though ?07:16
dholbachaha, the package fails to build: http://paste.ubuntu.com/428772/07:16
macogotunandan: dholbach just said that its currently in ick mode. the shiny new harvest isnt online yet apparently07:16
gotunandanmaco: the sourcepackages,html page is huge !07:16
macoyeah.... i remember that07:17
dholbachgotunandan: best to ignore that page for now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a bunch of pages that make more sense right now07:17
dholbachjk-: I just had a look if the package changed in Debian and it did - http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/c/creoleparser/creoleparser_0.7.1-1/changelog looks a lot like it's going to build now07:17
jk-dholbach: so, say I hack on it a bit and fix that;07:17
dholbach"   * Use python.mk for install options."07:17
ToyKeeper(if xchat-gnome doesn't have the UI, it's probably '/set completion_auto off')07:17
macogotunandan: also, if you can read a bit of code, know how to apply a patch & rebuild a package... the patch review team could use some help ;-)07:18
dholbachI'll just get the source from Debian and see if that works07:18
dholbach(got to the changelog page via packages.debian.org/src:<source package>)07:18
macogotunandan: the patch review team and motu both have the goal of getting the patch in & bug fixed. its just that the patch review team tries to get the patches to upstream or debian so then the motu can just update the package to the latest version upstream and it magically is fixed07:18
gotunandanmaco: yes, thats certainly possible. Whom do I get in touch with, nigelbabu ?07:19
jk-dholbach: sid ?07:19
dholbachjk-: if the package from debian builds just fine, we'll auto-import it in a few days (once maverick is truly open) since the package is unmodified in Ubuntu07:19
dholbachjk-: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=sourcenames&keywords=creoleparser07:19
macogotunandan: sure or join #ubuntu-reviews07:19
macogotunandan: we've got a patch day going right now07:19
persiagotunandan: If you're looking for patch review, stop by #ubuntu-reviews : if you're looking at getting the patch straight into Ubuntu, #ubuntu-motu is the better place.07:19
jk-but we sync from sid or squeeze?07:20
macopersia: well once its reviewed it can still have a shot at an sru07:20
dholbachjk-: ah, sorry - I misunderstood - I think for maverick we'll sync from sid again07:20
jk-i guess it doesn't matter in this case :)07:20
dholbachyep, but it fails the same way07:20
jk-so I should hack on the debian package instead?07:21
dholbachit'll get auto-imported, so it will make sense to work on that07:21
dholbachwhat I'd probably try next is to see if a bug was already filed upstream about this07:22
dholbachit's a bit weird that the package seems to build in debian, but not here07:22
dholbachsince we don't modify its code07:22
dholbachjk-: if the fix is really just "add some __init__.py files", it'd probably make sense to fix it in lucid too if the package is truly helpful07:23
persiaActually, arch:all packages often run into this issue, because of differences in the Debian and Ubuntu build systems.07:24
dholbachgotunandan: to get back to your question: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a lot of useful stuff - once maverick opens I guess a lot of people will focus on merging packages from Debian07:24
persiaMost of those are bugs that are happily fixed in Debian.07:24
dholbachpersia: but you wouldn't know what specifically is broken there? it's not a common ftbfs?07:24
persiaI don't happen to know, sorry.07:25
dholbachok, thanks07:25
dholbachgotunandan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging should give you some tips how to do it07:25
dholbach(and of course there's always #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu)07:25
persiahttp://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_updated.html is also worth mentioning in the context of merging: we don't get everything from Debian.07:25
gotunandandholbach: thanks !07:25
jk-ok, say it's an ubuntu-specific fix then, and I create a dpatch, what next?07:25
dholbachget it sponsored: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess07:26
jk-ok, cool07:26
dholbachusually just file a bug report or use an existing one, add the patch, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors, get it uploaded07:26
dholbachor you can use the distributed development approach07:27
dholbachwhere you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser07:27
macois dpatch like debdiff? ive not heard this one before...07:27
jk-so attach the dpatch itself, or a patch to add the dpatch + changelog + etc07:27
dholbachmaco: dpatch is one of the many patch systems07:27
persiamaco: dpatch is one of hte available patch systems: `apt-cache show dpatch`07:27
dholbachjk-: the latter makes it more straight-forward to just upload it (if it's good)07:27
jk-ok, great07:28
macojk-: for what dholbach just mentioned with distributed development: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation07:28
jk-maco: thanks07:28
dholbachwhere you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser , create a branch for that fix, and add a merge proposal07:28
macoim starting to appreciate source version 3 uniting on quilt. at least i only have to know how one thing works07:28
dholbachmvo wrote a tool call edit-patch (in ubuntu-dev-tools), it should help with all the different patch systems07:29
macodholbach: hey i have a motu sponsory question. is there a way to see all bugs that have branches attached?07:29
macoor to see all open merge proposals for which you are able to approve it?07:29
dholbachmaco: I use http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html07:29
dholbachand sort by the first column07:29
dholbachall "unseeded"07:29
macodholbach: i thought that was just listing bugs that have sponsors subscribed07:30
dholbachthat's broken07:30
dholbachmaco: no, branches too07:30
dholbachbut the "unseeded" thing is broken right now07:30
dholbachmore TODO list07:30
dholbachI'll get to it later today07:30
macoit just looks like all but 2 are for unseeded packages07:30
jk-does the merge proposal need a corresponding bug?07:31
dholbachmaco: yes, that's a bug07:31
macojk-: generally, yeah07:31
dholbachif there's a bug, link to it, but you don't need to specifically file onw07:31
macoi thought for bookkeeping it was good to have a bug and a LP: #foo in the changelog?07:31
macois this a bzr-lets-bookkeeping-happen-regardless thing?07:32
dholbachif there's some actual discussion about the thing going on, it's good to link to it in the changelog07:32
dholbachbut if you just say something like "changed x, y and z in a, b, c: this makes the package build again" that's totally fine07:32
persiaIf there is a bug, the bug in the changelog is good.  For a Debian merge or UEHS update, no point to a bug if it doesn't already exist and one is pushing a branch.07:32
dholbachyou'd write the same in the bug report anyway07:33
macopersia: k so the tendency i had to only file a bug once i had a patch ready to hand to a sponsor... that would no longer require filing a bug?07:34
dholbachnot if you use distributed development07:34
persiamaco: You may either file a bug or push a branch and request a merge.  Both show up on the sponsoring report.07:34
dholbachbut still document as good as you can :)07:34
dholbachwhen you use bzr and distributed development, you can easily do a   bzr commit --fixes lp:123456   to link it07:34
macothough rawr ive only been at this a year-ish and im already behind the times07:35
dholbach(if this bug exists)07:35
* persia tends to put the bugs in the changelog, and then use debcommit to automate the --fixes bit07:35
dholbachmaco: I think everybody's figuring out how best to make use of UDD (ubuntu distributed development) right now07:35
* maco does like persia07:35
dholbachpersia: yes, that works as well :)07:35
jk-dholbach, persia, maco: awesome, thanks for the info, i owe you guys a beer :)07:35
dholbach(I've been working a lot on non-distro things in the last few weeks :-))07:35
dholbachjk-: no worries07:36
persiaIf it's not clear to anyone: there are almost no "right answers", as long as you find something that 1) works for you, and 2) complies with policy, and 3) happens to match others workflows.07:36
macopersia: you know whats fun (not really)? this mess:  bzr-buildpackage -S -- -sa -v####07:36
dholbachas you can see it was very useful to talk about these questions :)07:36
dholbachmaco: I'd move the "-S" behind the "--"07:36
dholbachbzr bd -- -S -sa -v<version>07:37
persiaWhy -sa?07:37
macopersia: i was merging fromd debian07:37
* persia actively avoids using -sa *except* when cleaning up after other folks07:37
dholbachpersia: if you need to upload a new upstream tarball?07:37
macowhere there was a new upstream release07:37
persiaStill shouldn't need -sa07:37
macowell buildpackage was Not Happy when i didnt use it07:37
macothough that couldve been because i forgot -v too07:37
persiadholbach: It will auto-include it if it thinks it's warranted.07:37
dholbachpersia: if you have 1.2-1ubuntu1 in Ubuntu and merge 2.4-5 from Debian?07:38
dholbachoh nice07:38
macoi was flailing about today trying to remember how to merge07:38
persiaRIght, that's clearly a new upstream, so you get a new tarball.07:38
dholbachpersia: and it includes the -sa magically?07:38
macopersia: so my forgetting -v is why it wanted me to -sa?07:38
persiaIt only fails when the versions aren't sufficiently different, or you need to push a new tarball to clean up after some mess.07:38
dholbachmaco: the two are unrelated07:38
persiamaco: Yes, because you didn't scope it correctly.07:38
dholbachdo you all have any more questions? anything that was unclear in the explanations right now?07:39
* maco looks back and forth from persia to dholbach07:39
persiadholbach: If the upload version and the prior version have different upsteam versions, yep.07:39
* maco wishes you'd agree a bit07:39
dholbachmaybe somebody of the shy people (not jk- and gotunandan :-)) who are just lurking here?07:39
dholbachpersia: great07:39
dholbachmaco: I filed bug 57624207:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 576242 in ubuntu-sponsoring "Everything is "unseeded"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/57624207:39
persiamaco: It is the dynamic cooperative disagreement that is central to the process of arriving towards a flexible set of working practices :)07:39
macodholbach: it *is* possible that one of those very rare times when the main sponsors are more efficient than the universe sponsors happened07:40
maco(yes i know old names)07:40
dholbachmaco: no, I think it's more a problem with the packagesets in maverick07:40
persiaIt's a bug.07:40
dholbachany more questions? anything else you wondered about? anything else that seems broken? :)07:41
macohow many uploads do you have to sponsor before you get a pony?07:42
dholbachI don't know, but you get a lot of people liking you for reviewing their stuff :)07:43
dholbachany more questions?07:46
ajmitchhow do we be a rock star? :)07:46
dholbachajmitch: you of all should know!07:47
arand_(Don't have a system in fron of me, so general question): I find that I struggle quite a bit when i try to update a package with new [insert scm] versions. If I don't have an orig.tar.gz, is there any general guidelines on how to get to the point where ther is one, whilst still reusing the old diff.gz (possible?)07:47
ajmitchsource control07:47
ajmitchgenerally there'll be ways of exporting it, such as 'svn export', or possibly 'make dist' for an automake project07:48
ajmitchwhatevr way suits the project best, you'll want to have a get-orig-source target in debian/rules so that it can be automated by others07:49
dholbach./configure <---> && make dist    (if available) should give you a tarball07:49
dholbachand something like   svn export   should make sure you don't have revision control meta data in your tarball07:49
dholbachI hope that one fine day in the future we stop caring about tarballs and just use branches for everything :)07:50
macowhat does "bzr-buildpackage --split" do?07:50
dholbachuntil then, the above will make sense :)07:50
macoit says Automatically create an .orig.tar.gz from a full source branch.07:50
macodholbach:  does that do what arand_ is asking for?07:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.07:50
arand_The autogen.sh I've seen around (with no configure), should one just run that and then "make dist" In those cases?07:50
persiaarand_: All those alternatives aside, you should encourage any upsteam to produce some release archive (.tgz, .tar.bz2, .zip, whatever) when they do a release.07:51
dholbacharand_: that sounds like a good bet07:51
macoarand_: autogen.sh, in my experience, generates the configure07:51
dholbachmaco: yes, that should work if they use bzr (or one has set up a launchpad import of some other revision control branch)07:51
arand_Does the autogen not also run the configure normally?07:52
macodholbach: idea for next UOW:  UDD07:52
ajmitchyes please07:52
dholbacharand_: I've seen it do so, but I wouldn't rely on it07:52
dholbacharand_: best read what it does - they're usually quite small07:52
dholbachmaco: james_w has been running them for every UDW and a few UOWs too07:52
=== gotunandan_ is now known as gotunandan
dholbachajmitch: there should be heaps of logs :)07:53
arand_Anyway, it appears as though "make dist" was the link I was missing in general07:53
dholbachglad that works :)07:53
macodholbach: oh in that case i need to pay more attention :P07:53
dholbachmaco: but yeah, I guess we need to raise the profile of UDD07:53
dholbachI just learned about   bzr lp-open   a few weeks back07:53
ajmitchdholbach: yeah, it'll be a matter of finding & reading, like much of the documentation around07:53
ajmitcha few weeks? I learnt about it today07:54
dholbachajmitch: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Previous07:54
dholbachde rien07:54
macoif the goal is for that to be the way things are done moving forward, seems it ought to be whats given to new contribs off the bat07:54
imbrandonbzr lp-open ?07:55
dholbachimbrandon: will open the launchpad page of the branch in a browser :)07:55
persiaThere's a sufficiency of folks that prefer the non-bzr method that we'll probably end up supporting both for a very long time.07:55
dholbachso if you want to submit a merge proposal, that makes it easy07:55
persia(especially for the die-hard git folk)07:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.07:55
dholbachok, any more questions?07:56
dholbachok... in that case best ask your questions in #ubuntu-packaging or #ubuntu-motu later on!07:58
dholbachhave a great day everybody and thanks for all your questions and answers07:58
dholbachyou guys rock!07:58
ajmitchthank you dholbach07:58
arand_Thanks for the session!07:58
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
gotunandanj/ignore #ubuntu-classroom +JOINS +PARTS +QUITS09:00
patouxasis anybody here?12:52
nhandlerHello patouxas, can I help you with something?12:53
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andy__@IdleOne here too :)14:24
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Picajosoanyone here?15:47
astraljavaPicajoso: Lots of people, as you can probably see. Sesssions will begin shortly, please be patient.15:47
PicajosoUps. I saw no updates, and didn't know if everything was fine.15:48
astraljavaKernel Q+A beginning in 10 minutes.15:50
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Kernel Q+A - Instructor: apw || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
akgranerGood Morning!16:01
akgranerapw and ogasawara  will be fielding the Kernel Questions today16:02
akgranerif you all are ready - talk it away!16:02
* ogasawara waves16:02
* apw waves hello16:02
ogasawarathanks akgraner16:02
ogasawaraHi Everyone!16:02
ogasawaraWelcome to the Kernel Q&A (question and answer) session.16:02
ogasawaraMy name is Leann Ogasawara and I'm a member of the Canonical Kernel Team.16:03
ogasawaraI'm here with Andy Whitcroft and other members of the team to field any questions that you may have about the Ubuntu Kernel.16:03
ogasawaraPlease remember to post your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix them with "QUESTION:".16:03
ogasawaraWe'll try to answer them as best we can.16:03
ogasawaraLet's get started!  Does anyone have any questions?16:03
ClassBotbullgard4 asked: What does mean "to field the Kernel Questions"?16:03
ogasawarabullgard4: we're here to just answer any questions you may have regarding the Ubuntu Kernel16:04
ogasawaraakgraner: next16:04
ClassBotResno asked: How does the Ubuntu kernel measure up against other distros?16:05
apwour key aim is to be as close to mainline as possible, so we offer the freshest offering we can16:06
apwat the time of release.16:06
apwin addition we are always striving to cover the most common hardware as seen in systems16:06
apwregular people will buy.  to be a friendly and easy to use16:07
apwpretty similar to what other community distributions are trying to achieve16:07
apwakgraner, next16:07
ClassBotbullgard4 asked: /etc/init.d/unmountfs produces a message: "Unmounting weak filesystems." What are 'weak filesystems?' Those filesystems that have been mounted to /|/proc|/dev|/.dev|/dev/pts|/dev/shm|/dev/.static/dev|/proc/*|/sys|/lib/init/rw)?16:08
apwthat sounds like a userspace message, not a designation i have seen used in the kernel before16:08
apwwe'll have to look into that and try and get back to you16:09
apwakgraner, next16:09
ClassBotpopey asked: Testing kernels sounds hard and might cuase problems for my system, how can you make it easier for me to test new kernels, and can I be happy that I wont break my production machine?16:09
ogasawarapopey: great question.  I've actually been leveraging testdrive to do a lot of my testing.16:09
ogasawarapopey: I don't have the link off the top of my head16:10
ogasawaraakgraner: next16:10
ClassBotbullgard4 asked: '~$ ps -ef | grep flush; root       252     2  0 May05 ?        00:00:00 [flush-8:0]' What process spawns this process? Where is described the function of this process?16:11
apwthose processes are spawed by the kernel itself to handle flushing of block devices within the kernel, they are there to provide process16:11
apwcontexts where needed.  they are tripped by fsync and similar calls to perform data-writes.  they are relativly new and may not appear before kucid16:12
apwakgraner, next16:12
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: Apparently the upstream Linux developers will support the version of Linux that 10.04 is using for three years, however since 10.04 is LTS, that means Ubuntu developers will probably have to support it on their own for  the last two years when it comes to the server. By then it will probably be rather secure, but surely it would be better if 10.04 started to then use an upstream version of the kernel, but no security16:12
akgraner updates only?16:13
apwok there are a couple of strands here16:13
apwfirstly we normally only do security updates at the later stages of support for a kernel so the change is minimal at these ages16:14
apwhowever, as there is synergy [sic] between the distros on v2.6.32 there is a strong likelyhood there will be longer16:14
apwterm support for that release from the stable tree than there is normally16:14
apwsecondly we are introducing backported kernels for servers on the 10.04 LTS.  here we will pull back kerenls from Maverick a16:15
apwand later to the LTS for use on servers16:15
apwakgraner, next16:15
ClassBotOdd-rationale asked: Does the Ubuntu kernel use a pae enabled kernel by default? If not, why not?16:15
apwby default we only install a PAE kernel where the machine has sufficient ram to warrent the use of it.16:16
apwfor machines with less memory there is no benefit to be had from using a PAE kernel in general and there is a minimal cost16:16
apwto enabling PAE.  as we have to have a non-PAE kernel currently for the older hardware which does not support this, it is used where sensible.16:17
apwakgraner, next :)16:17
ClassBotbullgard4 asked: '~$ ps -ef | grep flush; root       252     2  0 May05 ?        00:00:00 [flush-8:0]' What process spawns this process? Where is described the function of this process?16:17
apwakgraner, that one is a duplicate16:18
ogasawaraI think apw answered this already16:18
ClassBotsebsebseb asked: I like how Resno called it the Ubuntu kernel.  Well when Ubuntu developers are supporting the 10.04 kernel on their own (unless they can convince upstream developers to support it for longer) then really it is a fork of the Linux kernel?16:18
jcastroI took over16:18
jcastrodid you guys answer this one?16:18
apwjcastro, thats new16:18
jcastrook, proceed! :)16:19
ogasawarasebsebseb: I actually wouldn't consider it a fork.  the key bits to note is we do closely follow the upstream kernel as much as we can.16:19
jcastrohe says you answered that question when you answered the last one16:19
ClassBotZykoticK9 asked: I have heard that Ubuntu submits fewer upstream kernel bugs then some other much smaller distros.  Is this accurate?  Are steps being taken to submit more bugs, regarding the kernel, upstream?16:19
apwyeah this is probabally true.  the kernel team in general is pretty small in Ubuntu16:21
apwwe can and should be moving more of our bugs upstream as we find they are not things we introduced16:21
apwwe use mainline kernel testing heavily to determine this and when we find that we are not the16:21
apwcause of the issue, we should be pushing bugs to the kernel bugzilla16:21
apwthis is one area in which community help is much appreciated.16:21
apwwhen triaging bugs in the early phases we often find things are 'affecting mainline' and those helping with triage16:22
apwwould be in a good position to help detect these and push them up.16:22
apwlaunchapd provides great integration once they are upstream16:22
apwand cirtainly in my experience moving them up to bugzilla often gets good responce from the mainline kernel developers16:23
apwwho frankly hate their code to be broken16:23
apwour main drive is to increase the triage team to aid this process16:23
apwand they should encourage the reportrs to push them upstream as the developers often want direct testing help16:24
apwjcastro, next16:24
ClassBotpopey asked: Using testdrive is great for testing stuff, but how much of the kernel testing is needed on bare metal? Is testdrive sufficient for most tests?16:24
ogasawarapopey: obviously testing on bare metal is great, so say using a liveusb to test is something else to use.16:25
ogasawarapopey: we've also started generating custom kernel iso's for testing.  we've been taking them to linux fest type conferences to wider testing as well.16:25
ogasawarapopey: but for those wanting to just fire up a vm and test, testdrive is sufficient16:26
ogasawaraakgraner: next16:26
ClassBotpopey asked: I'm not a coder, what can I do to help make kernels better?16:26
ogasawarapopey: I love this question.16:27
ogasawarapopey: there's many places to contribute that don't involve writing code.16:27
ogasawarapopey: like you've pointed out, we can always use help testing kernels, triaging bugs, or even cleaning up docs.16:27
ogasawarapopey: we're always willing to mentor someone and get them pointed in the direction that scratches their itch16:28
ogasawarapopey: come find us in #ubuntu-kernel and we'll get you going16:28
ogasawaraakgraner, jcastro: next16:28
ClassBotpopey asked: If there was a magic bullet you could get from the community which would help you guys/gals do your job, what would it be?16:29
apwi think the short answer is more help16:29
apwwe are a small team and we have a heap of work to do16:29
apwpeople helping with trigaing is always going to help there16:30
apwalso helping out on bug days ... we always need more bugs hugged16:30
apwwe are going to have a specific Community session at UDS to dicsuss16:30
apwhow we can better reach out to _you_ the community and help you get involved in _your_ kernel16:31
apwthat will be open to remote and local participation for those who would like to contribute ideas16:31
apwjcastro, next pls16:31
ClassBotJanC__ asked: are those special kernel testing ISOs available somewhere publicly?16:31
apwthey are meant to be being rebuilt nightly, that process seems to be broken at the moment16:32
apwbut expect to see an announcement when they are ready for consumption16:32
apwjcastro, next16:32
ClassBotjcastro asked: Tell us about the mainline PPA builds16:32
apwthe mainline PPA builds are a little bit of a misnomer.  they are actually an archive of all of the16:33
apwmainline kernel snapshots we have build installable .deb's for.16:33
apwthese are both daily snapshots of the upstream trees such as Linus' mainline tree.  plus the officially tagged releases16:33
apwsuch as v2.6.32.16:34
apwthey represent totally unmodified source for those kernels but built using an Ubuntu compatible kernel configuration16:34
apwthese are primarily used to find out where problems were introduced or where they may be fixed16:34
apwfor example if our latest 10.04 LTS kernel is based on then we can try that version to confirm16:35
apwthat the Ubuntu changes are not the cause of the issue.  we can use the latest v2.6.34-rcN kerenls to confirm16:35
apwif the issues are fixed in upstream mainline16:35
apwthis in turn allows us to isolate potential fixes more quickly16:35
apwjcastro, next16:36
ClassBotLibertyZero asked: Are there any plans to switch to another scheduler like BFS in the (near) future?16:36
apwgenerally we look to follow upstream recommendations on such things16:36
apwso if there are more than one version of a particular piece of functionality16:37
apwas there is with the allocator we generally will select the recommended version upstream over the others16:37
apwin the case of BFS the patches are not in the kernel as yet so that is not even on our radar as an option16:38
apwnew functionality and options tend to appear on our radar when they enter the kernel and are interesting (as BTRFS has recently)16:38
apwof course this does not stop people building their own kernels with different options and offereing them in a PPA16:38
apwof course those come with no warrently ... you get to keep both bits16:39
apwjcastro, next :)16:39
ClassBotbullgard4 asked: I got a message: "An automatic file system check (fsck) of the root filesystem failed. The fsck should be performed in maintenance mode with the root filesystem in read-only mode." Can you explain the term 'maintenance mode' please16:39
jcastroNot really kernel related but I guess you guys are closest to cover this area. :)16:39
apwmaintenance mode is essentially a different boot mode wherein only the very minimum of16:40
apwservices are started.  normally for a filesystem check the disk in question will not even be mounted read-write16:40
apwso normal operation is not possible.  this keeps the fsck process safe from interferance while it sorts out the issues found in the filesystem16:40
apwa good thing generally.16:41
apwmaintenance mode is typically somewhere you end up when this sort of failure occurs16:41
apwnormally you don't have to try and get there yourself, but booting into single user is pretty close16:41
apwjcastro, next16:42
ClassBotnealmcb asked: What is the status of ext4 performance issues in general and the recent issue of forced syncs for umount?16:42
apwthere has been a lot of talk about how ext4 is now slow ... this should be taken in the context16:42
apwof it still being significantly faster than ext3 has ever been.16:42
apwyes fixing some correctness issues and working round bad userspace applications has16:43
apwcontributed to a reduction in ext4 performance from its height, but correctness is always the right16:43
apwthe recent forced unmount performance issues seem to be fallout from another change probabally in the quota16:44
apwsystem, which removed a forced sync there.  we actually have patches in test right now which may well sort out the16:44
apwunderlying issue for lucid and upstream they have a rework in progress to fix it completely for all filesystems16:44
apwjcastro, next16:44
jcastrono questions right now16:45
jcastroso why don't you tell us what you plan to do for Maverick!16:45
ogasawaraheh, well most of what will be happening in Maverick will be discussed next week at UDS16:45
ogasawarabut we know for sure that since it's following an LTS release, it's going to be radical and a huge jump in terms of kernel version16:46
ClassBotnealmcb asked: My Dell 1012 freezes sometimes and even sysrq REISUB doesn't work, with nothing in /var/log.  How can I get more debugging info to provide good bug reports and figure out if it is kernel, xorg, etc?16:46
ogasawaranealmcb: well, there's a couple of things to test.  Is this a recent regression?  ie. if you revert to a previous kernel, does it begin to work.  that's usually a good indicator.16:47
ogasawaranealmcb: how reproducible is the issue?16:47
ogasawaranealmcb: can you trigger on demand16:47
ogasawaranealmcb: you could possibly try to use a serial console to get at the logs16:48
ogasawaranealmcb: could be a temp/overheat issue. . .16:48
apwnealmcb, thats probabally one to bring and discuss on the #ubuntu-kernel channel as we have lots of ideas mostly mad :)16:48
ogasawaraheh, exactly16:49
ogasawarajcastro: next16:49
ClassBotOdd-rationale asked: Maybe this is taking a lttile away from the next session, but how does the default kernle differ from the server kernel? or is there a difference at all?16:49
apwthe main difference is focus for the kernel.  the desktop kernel is more tuned for interactive use16:49
apwthe server kernel is more aligned with server needs.  this means we tend to use a different disk16:49
apwscheduler algorithm, often the scheduling tick is slower as we care less about gettting to a user16:50
apwqucikly and more about getting stuff done16:50
apwthere have been less and less differences recently as the kernel has gotten better at16:50
apwself tuning.16:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.16:50
apwthe other difference is that we support the server kernle for longer16:51
apwjcastro, next16:51
ClassBotOdd-rationale asked: can you tell us a little about kerneloops? how it works and how it is integrated with Ubuntu?16:51
apwkerneloops is a post processor for kernel panics and dumps16:51
apwit pulls out the kernel stack trace for the incident and pushes it to the kerneloops.org site16:52
apwthis allows the site to work out which kernel issues are most prevalent and possibly associate those with16:52
apwspecific kernel versions or even with specific builds by specific distributions16:52
apwin ubuntu the kerneloops submissions are triggered directly from apport when it is about to report those16:53
apwsame traces back to LaunchPad16:53
apwjcastro, next16:53
jcastrowaiting on questions16:53
apwalmost perfect timing :)16:53
apwjcastro, you have one now :)16:54
ClassBotogasawara asked: Where can I reach members of the Ubuntu Kernel Team if I have more questions?16:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.16:55
ogasawaraso I'm talking to myself :) but  We usually hang out on FreeNode in the #ubuntu-kernel channel.16:56
ogasawaraOur team spans a wide range of timezones so chances are good that one of us will be online.16:56
ogasawarawe can also be found at kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com16:56
ogasawarabut the mailing list is more for technical discussion (ie patches etc).  Not to gripe about bugs :)16:57
ogasawarajcastro: next16:57
ogasawaraprolly last one as we're nearing the end of our session16:58
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Do you have any good links to generic Ubuntu kernel debugging help pages? :)16:58
ogasawarahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase#Debugging has some general debugging tips16:58
apwas we are running out of time, we'd just like to thank you all for your16:59
apwinteresting and detailed techinical questions ...16:59
apwit cirtainly was entertaining16:59
apwhope to see you in #ubuntu-kernel17:00
ogasawarathanks everyone!17:00
* ogasawara hand it off to the server team17:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Server Q & A - Instructors: zul, smoser || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastrothanks everyone!17:00
jcastrozul, ok, introduce yourself and take it away!17:01
zulHi, Im Chuck Short from the Canonical server team, and today we will be doing a server q+a17:01
zuland im here with other members of the team who are going to help out17:02
zullike smoser17:02
zulso if you want to ask questions please fire away17:02
zulso smoser why dont you explain what you do17:03
smoserMy biggest reponsibility is the ubuntu enterprise cloud images (UEC)17:03
smoserWe create 'ready-to-run' images for UEC or for EC2.17:03
smoserother than that, I generally help out with server bugs, features and the ubuntu platform.17:04
smoserI apologize if that was too exciting a description17:04
zulas smoser I generally help out with server bugs, features, and the ubuntu platofrm as well17:05
zulso does anyone have any questions?17:05
zulwell to get the ball rolling17:05
ClassBotzul asked: what are your plans for maverick?17:06
smoserThat was directed at me ? i presume ?17:06
zulboth of us17:06
smoseryou first17:06
smoserOK.  I'll go.17:06
smoserThis week and last we've been working on putting together plans (blueprints) for what we'd like to work on for Maverick17:07
smoserThat list of things can be seen at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?role=approver17:07
smoserNext week, at UDS we'll discuss these with other members of the Ubuntu Server team and the larger Ubuntu community in general.17:07
smosermany of the sessions are brainstorm centric while others will have more concrete discussions ready to go17:08
smoserThis is a better link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?searchtext=server-maverick-17:08
zuli hope you get involved with us next week as well17:08
ClassBotleonel asked: any plans to include a light webserver for VPS ? like  www.cherokee-project.org17:08
smoserif you're unfamiliar with UDS, please read up.  At this point if you weren't already planning on going, you're probably not going to be there physically17:09
smoserhowever, the IS team does an *outstanding* job of making remote-attendence via IRC with streaming audio possible.17:09
zulleonel: yes we will be discussing at UDS a more lightweigh webserver17:09
ClassBotleonel asked: I mean in main17:09
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Do you have some demos that anyone with an Amazon or Eucalyptus cloud account could run to demonstrate the cool cloud features in Lucid?17:11
smosernealmcb, I don't have an explicit demo at all.17:11
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
smoserMaybe thats something I should try to put together.17:11
smoserzul authored most of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EC2StartersGuide17:12
smoserwhich walks you through getting an instance booted on EC2.17:12
smoserOnce you're there and in, I have to say there isn't much terribly exciting about the "base image".17:12
smoserEverything that you can do with it revolves around it being basically Ubuntu server.17:13
smoserwhatever you can imagine for ubuntu server, you can do on EC2 or UEC in an instance.17:13
smoserOne interesting thing that differs between "standard server" and EC2/UEC images is cloud-init17:13
smoserat http://ubuntu-smoser.blogspot.com/ i wrote a blog entry about what you can do with cloud-init17:14
smoserTheres more to document there, but that might get you started.17:14
smosernext question ?17:14
ClassBotzul asked: whats the difference between EC2 and UEC?17:14
zulthanks zul would you like to take this one smoser?17:15
smoserUEC is "Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud".  This is a cloud offering from Ubuntu based on Eucalyptus.17:16
smoserIt allows you to run a "private cloud" inside your lab (on your own hardware) that is API compatible with EC2's public cloud.17:16
smoserThis might be desireable for development, or places where data is highly sensitive.17:17
smoseroh, one other thing, the UEC installation is present right in the ubuntu server CDs.17:17
smoserso it is *very* trivial to set up a UEC cloud if you have 2 or more hardware systems (with VT extensions) systems to play with.17:17
smosernext question.17:18
ClassBotSoftwareexplorer asked: I once tried to get a postfix/ dovecott email server working on jaunty. When I finally got it, I had no clue what I did right. Part of the problem was that none of the ubuntu wiki pages said how to use the postfix-dovecot package and just told how to set it up the old way. When I wanted to set up an email server on 10.04, I had no idea how to do it again. Is there the possibility of someone writing a wik17:18
zulSoftwareexplorer: there should be some documentation in the ubuntu server guide at https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/index.html17:18
zulits written by the community by adam sommer so if there is a feature missing it please file a bug in launchpad17:19
zulnext question17:19
ClassBotSoftwareexplorer asked: What kind of hardware requirements are there to run UEC just to try it out? How hard is it to set up?17:19
zuli think this one up your alley smoser17:19
smoserSoftwareexplorer, hardware requirements are 2 physical systems. Each probably needs 2G of ram, and 1 of which must have VT extensions17:20
smoservt extensions are present in just about any hardware desktop or server created in the past 3 years or so.17:20
smoserif you've got amd64 hardware, most likely you have them especially if its amd, not intel.17:21
smoseryou can check to ake sure with the 'kvm-ok' command.17:21
smoserOnce you've got the hardware, the software setup is quite trivial17:21
smoserthe CD install (or from USB) has an option to "install UEC cloud"17:21
smoserand you simply select one system as the Cloud Controller, and one as a Node.17:21
smoserafter installation of both systems the cloud will be ready to go.17:22
* smoser is searching for link17:22
smoserhttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/CDInstall .should get you started.17:22
smoserthat covers 9.10, but mostly the same.17:23
smoserSoftwareexplorer, is that a reasonable answer?17:23
ClassBotzul asked: How can I get the UEC and EC2 images?17:24
smoserzul, the UEC is available as part of the ubuntu server.17:25
smoserthe easiest way to install it is definitely to do a fresh install from an ISO or USB key and select the "Install UEC".17:25
smoserThe EC2 Images can be run on EC2 or on UEC.17:26
smosermore information is available at http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/releases/lucid/release/17:26
smoserThat will give you EC2 commands to launch the instances as well as their AMI ids.17:26
smoserFor UEC, you can download the ".tar.gz" files there and register them with "uec-publish-tarball" on your installed cloud.17:26
smosernext question17:27
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Our server blog at http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/ can help get our messages out - how can we encourage more posts there, or are there other venues?17:27
zulgood question i would ask you to contact mathiaz on #ubuntu-server.17:28
zulmost of the ubuntu server developers obviously hang out on #ubuntu-server17:28
zulnext question17:28
zulwe have weekly meetings as well on #ubuntu-meeting where users and developers can raise issues that they find.17:29
zulthey are on tuesdays now17:29
zulwe also do a lot of backporting to LTS releases such as hardy because alot of our userbase still use the LTS on their servers17:30
zulany other question?17:30
ClassBotmdeslaur asked: Any plans on integrating enterprise groupware software?17:30
zulmdeslaur: yes we do have a session next week at UDS to include into universe packages such as sogo and zafara17:31
zulsogo being a calendar groupware server and zafara is a microsoft exchange like product17:31
zulnext question17:32
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Will there be a session at UDS on how to better market the great server offerings and how to stimulate more community involvement on the server side?17:32
zulnealmcb: yes there should be a session at UDS for getting more people involved17:32
zulalot of our users are sys admins so we need a way to draw in our users to the community17:33
zulnext question17:33
ClassBotJanC__ asked: I thought Postfix was supposed to be the default mailserver on Ubuntu, but I hear from several people that they got Exim installed (probably through some dependencies?) -- what's the current policy about this?17:33
zulpostfix is the default mail server in main, but yes you can use other mail servers such as exim since they are packaged in universe17:34
zulnext question17:34
zulso a couple of sessions we are having at UDS are things like how we can integrate things like puppet in a configuration management system17:35
zulanother session would be how we can get better support for Alfresco in ubuntu17:36
zulwe also to get better integration with software such as nagios and munin as well but these sessions will all be discussed at UDS next week with the community's participation17:37
zulan interesting project we had last release in lucid was server-papercuts17:38
zulthe idea behind this is that the users can nominate small things that they find annoiying in ubuntu-server and have them nominated to be fixed in lucid.17:38
zulwe are going to be continuing this in maverick as well17:39
ClassBotJanC__ asked: what I meant is that "by default" apparently some packages pull in Exim instead of Postfix?  shouldn't they pull in postfix if they need an MTA and no other one was installed by the admin?17:39
zulJanC_: well yes obviously that is a bug in my opinon and it should be fixed17:40
zulnext question17:40
zulif any :)17:40
zulanother feature we are lookig at for maverick is web 2.0 workloads17:40
zulsites like facebook and linkedin are pretty big at the momment and we would like to get better support for them in ubuntu17:41
zulso we are also having a session on that at UDS next week as well17:41
ClassBotnealmcb asked: I heard about some performance issues with some server loads on ext4.  Are there times ext3 would be better?d17:42
zulnealmcb: i heard that as well bug I havent seen any benchmarks myself, I do believe there is a bug open about it launchpad17:42
smoseri'm not completely suited to answer this question. but, as I understand it, basically fsync is much more expensive for ext4.17:43
smoserworkloads that made extensive use of that call would see performance loss17:43
smoserbut i'm very much glossing over that.17:44
smosersorry i couldn't be more help.17:44
smosernext question?17:44
zulsmoser: so what plans do you have for cloud-init17:45
smoserto make it better :)17:46
smoserthe overall goal of cloud-init17:46
smoserand other utilities that we put into the cloud images is to make them very friendly to use in the cloud17:46
smoserlast cycle focused on getting hooks in early  in the boot cycle, so that, via "user-data", you can control much of the initial boot of the instance, and make it do your bidding.17:47
smoserwe will probably continue refining that, but will be adding other function to make the instances "cloud friendly"17:47
smoserone thing that has been brought up is "ebs-mount" from the turnkey images folks.17:47
smoserthis will allow you to take automated action on connection of an ebs volume (if so configured).17:48
smosernext question17:49
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Often we advise folks to wait to upgrade their existing servers until the .1 release.  When might 10.04.1 come out?17:49
zulnealmcb: according to the maverick release schedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule) july 29th17:49
zulalot of the SRU (stable release updates) that we are working on right now will be included in the point release17:50
zulso yes for server we usually recomend and wait for the point release17:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.17:50
zulSRU is the process where we backport bugs that are already fixed in the development release, in this case maverick to the stable release, in this case either hardy or lucid17:51
zulso if you find a bug with for example PHP we try to get it fixed in maverick first and depending how hard it is to get it fixed for lucid we usually backport the patch17:52
ClassBotnealmcb asked: What's new in the Java world for Ubuntu?  In Lucid or coming up in Maverick?17:53
zulfor java we are looking at better integration with things like maven and possibly jboss, you'll have to be at UDS next week to find out since we will have a session about that as well17:54
zulnext question17:54
zuli guess we have like 6 minutes until the next session does anyone else want to ask a question?17:55
zulill give you a cookie if you do ;)17:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.17:55
zulwell if you dont smoser and I can be usually found on irc17:55
ClassBotnealmcb asked: How can people help test server stuff on different hardware?17:56
zulnealmcb: it depends on how much help we get at the release time, you can help test ISO when they are released at the iso tracker at http://qa.iso.ubuntu.com17:57
* zul gives nealmcb a cookie!17:57
zulon real hardware I dont know off the top of my head, most of the testing is done on qemu-kvm17:58
zulany more questions?17:59
ClassBotnealmcb asked: Can I get two cookies served up with cloud-like frosting integration? :)18:00
zulonly if you file a blueprint18:00
zulwell thanks everyone for coming18:00
smoserthere will be plenty of cookies at UDS.18:00
zuland beer18:00
smoserPlease, for anyone interested in participating, please do.18:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Working on Bug Reports (aka Triage Class) - Instructor: pedro_ || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
pedro_That was a great session! thanks zul and smoser ;-)18:01
pedro_Alright folks, My name is Pedro Villavicencio Garrido and I'm the guy behind the Ubuntu Desktop bugs18:02
pedro_Today i'll talk about How to work with Bug reports, either Reporting or Triaging those18:02
pedro_The bugs on Ubuntu are tracked on a BTS called Launchpad, which i think you might know already18:03
pedro_If you want to report a bug we recommend to use the 'ubuntu-bug' tool18:04
pedro_Until Lucid there was a menu item in the Help menu called "Report a problem"18:05
pedro_it was removed and now it can only be used on the development release18:05
pedro_so don't panic if you don't find it18:05
pedro_alright so how to use ubuntu-bug ?18:05
pedro_it's pretty easy, what you need is to open a terminal and type :18:06
pedro_ubuntu-bug <package name>18:06
pedro_ie: ubuntu-bug gnome-panel18:06
pedro_if you do it, you'll see a new window appearing into your desktop18:07
pedro_with some "Apport is collecting information" message18:07
pedro_and then you need to just follow the steps of the application to open the new bug report18:07
pedro_but what if you don't really know the name of the package ?18:08
pedro_you can also pass to ubuntu-bug the Process ID18:08
pedro_as: ubuntu-bug 1234518:08
pedro_and then again, the apport window will show up18:09
pedro_finding the right package name might be tricky sometimes18:09
pedro_that's why we have the  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage guide18:09
pedro_if the guide doesn't help you, you're more than welcome to stop by the #ubuntu-bugs channel and ask there18:10
pedro_there's plenty of people willing to help18:10
pedro_it's also important to describe the bug the better you can18:11
pedro_if you put as a title something like "does not work"18:11
pedro_or "i don't know"18:11
pedro_well if you don't know, we might not know either ;-)18:12
pedro_so it's really, really important to describe everything the best you can18:12
pedro_there's an amazing guide which might help you with that: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html18:12
pedro_and it's translated to several languages and i'm sure it applies to every BTS in the world ;-)18:13
pedro_you'll make a lot of QA people happy if you follow that guide , trust me ;-)18:13
pedro_For more information on how to report bugs in Ubuntu, please use the guide located at :  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs18:14
pedro_and again , if you have questions #ubuntu-bugs is the perfect place18:14
pedro_Ok so we have our bug filed in Ubuntu, what's next?18:14
pedro_who deal with those reports?18:14
pedro_There's a team called the Ubuntu BugSquad18:15
pedro_The BugSquad is the first point of contact for the bugs filed about Ubuntu, we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by the Developers18:15
pedro_that process is called "Triage"18:15
pedro_Working with the BugSquad it's an amazing way to start helping and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure18:16
pedro_You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team, in fact it's a great way to return something to our Lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all18:16
pedro_Our points of contacts are:18:17
pedro_#ubuntu-bugs here in Freenode18:17
pedro_our mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad18:17
pedro_and of couse the lp team page https://launchpad.net/~bugsquad18:18
pedro_there's only a few requirements to join the team18:18
pedro_* Sign the Code of Conduct18:18
pedro_* Read the Triage Guide - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/18:19
pedro_* Subscribe to our mailing list18:19
pedro_that's everything you need to join us18:19
pedro_Let's talk about Bug Triage18:20
pedro_The Bug Triage is an essential part of Ubuntu's development and consists in :18:20
pedro_* Respond to the New bugs as they are filed in our BTS18:21
pedro_* Ensure that New bugs have all the necessary information18:21
pedro_* Assign bugs to the proper package18:22
pedro_A *big* portion of the bugs we have to deal with are not assigned to the right package or even not assigned to any18:22
pedro_so it's really important you choose one when filing a new bug on Ubuntu18:23
pedro_to give you an idea , here's is a list of new bugs without a package: http://is.gd/bWXr818:23
pedro_there's a lot of bugs there that need to be reassigned to the proper package, if you have time and want to help us, well consider in join the BugSquad ;-)18:25
pedro_* Confirming the reports by trying to reproduce them18:25
pedro_this is also important and please remember to not confirm your own reports18:26
=== JFo is now known as JFo-afk
pedro_if you think it's easy to reproduce, well describe the issue the best you can in the bug report itself , someone else will follow your steps and confirm it18:26
pedro_if no one does it for a few days, you're welcome to join #ubuntu-bugs and ask there18:27
pedro_we also:18:27
pedro_* Set priorities to bug reports18:27
pedro_* Search and mark bugs as duplicates18:27
pedro_* Send the bugs upstream when applicable18:28
pedro_and we have a nice guide for that here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream18:28
pedro_with most of the Upstream BTS out there, GNOME, Mozilla, OpenOffice, Debian, etc18:28
pedro_if you think we're missing one, please tell us, so we can create the documentation with your help18:29
pedro_we do Cross reference of bugs from others distributions18:29
pedro_and Expire the old bugs18:30
pedro_All of these activities help the bug report to get fixed and subsequently making Ubuntu even better18:30
pedro_If you have done enough Triage work, you can apply to the Ubuntu BugControl team18:31
pedro_which is the one with more rights over the reports in Ubuntu18:31
pedro_basically you can see the Private reports18:31
pedro_Change the importance of the Bugs18:31
pedro_and set a couple of status (Triaged, Won't Fix)18:32
pedro_the requirements to join the team are available at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl18:32
pedro_and the launchpad team page is: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol18:32
pedro_We encourage everyone who wants to join the Ubuntu BugSquad team to also join our BugSquad Mentoring Program18:33
pedro_which is the perfect to make your way trough the Triage world and it will help you to join the Ubuntu BugControl team in a more prepared fashion18:34
pedro_instructions on how to join? : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors18:34
ClassBotoptix asked: Can someone become an Ubuntu member by doing Triage work?18:34
pedro_optix, to answer your question... YES! , several of our members are Ubuntu Members and they 'win' the privilege of becoming one by also doing lot of Triage work18:36
ClassBotPendulum asked: How much time commitment does the bug squad require?18:37
pedro_Pendulum, I'd say between 15 and 20 minutes per day is enough to start18:38
pedro_Pendulum, if you join the Mentoring Program you can set up a schedule with your Mentor and discuss how much time you can spend on the triage work18:39
pedro_Pendulum, we care more about quality of work rather than volume ;-)18:40
pedro_we do prefer someone who triages 1 bug in a good way, rather than someone doing crazy things on 50 :-P18:40
ClassBotmistrynitesh asked: Sometimes it so happens that being technically challenged, I do basic work like finding right package, requesting more information for incomplete reports etc. but can't proceed much ahead. What do you suggest should I do in these cases so that the bug gets triaged?18:41
pedro_the next step is to talk to the Maintainers/Developers of that package/program18:41
pedro_it's all about communication, raise the issue with the developers and for sure they're going to look over that problem18:42
pedro_Let's talk briefly about Bug Status18:42
pedro_since you're able to change some of them without any special rights18:43
pedro_We currently have 9 status, they are: New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix.18:43
pedro_New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed the report.18:44
pedro_don't mix it with the meaning on Bugzilla18:44
pedro_The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information18:44
pedro_like the steps to reproduce the bug18:44
pedro_The Invalid  status should be used when the bug report does not contain adequate information to determine whether or not it is a bug even if it is resolved for the reporter. Be careful when you set this status, when a bug has the invalid status it will no longer show up in default searches.18:44
pedro_Confirmed  status is almost self explanatory; someone other than the reporter has experienced the same bug.18:45
pedro_(remember to not confirm your own reports)18:45
pedro_The Triaged status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fixing the issue18:45
pedro_f a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer has started working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as In Progress18:46
pedro_this status sometimes creates confussion18:46
pedro_In Progress is not the same as Incomplete18:46
pedro_We've seen some people changing the status to In Progress when they are asked for more information18:47
pedro_as in "I'm searching for the files in my desktop so I'm going to set this to In Progress while i'm doing that"18:47
pedro_no no, that's a mistake do not do that, the status should remain as Incomplete18:47
pedro_If a developer has committed a fix to a bzr branch or to another repository the report needs to be marked as Fix Committed18:48
pedro_And when that amazing Fix is released (available on an official Ubuntu repository) the status of that bug reports needs to be changed to Fix Released18:48
pedro_There's also Importances in the Reports, basically the importance of the bug signifies the priority that it should be given by people fixing bugs18:49
pedro_we don't have enough time to explain those though, but the documentation is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance18:49
ClassBotbdrung_ asked: An upstream developer is doing triaging work in Ubuntu, but he can't set all statuses and see private bugs. What should he do to archive these rights? should he join the bugsquad for just one package?18:50
pedro_nice question!18:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.18:50
pedro_they need to join the Ubuntu BugControl team, the Upstream developers are really important to us, so if you're an upstream developers and you don't have the rights to look are you bugs in Launchpad just ping any of the Ubuntu BugControl admins either by IRC or email and we'll add you to the team18:52
pedro_did you ever hear about The Ubuntu Bug Day?18:53
pedro_Once a week the BugSquad organize an event called "Ubuntu Bug Day" or Hug day (Triage a bug win a hug!)18:53
pedro_The idea of a hug day is to work together with the BugSquad and project maintainers to focus our collective effort on a specific task18:53
pedro_Bug days are perfect to start working on the Bugsquad and giving back some love to your lovely Ubuntu project18:54
pedro_we do have a lot of people contributing to those, let me show you some stats18:54
pedro_on 2009:18:54
pedro_3262 bugs were triaged during bug days18:54
pedro_37 bug days were organized18:54
pedro_119 contributors participated on bug days18:55
pedro_if you want to do some bug work but don't know where to focus, well bug days are perfect for that ;-)18:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.18:55
ClassBotmistrynitesh asked: When the bug is fixed in upstream, what should it be marked as?18:56
pedro_the task should remain as Triaged but we do treat those as an special case on the desktop bugs18:57
pedro_setting those as Fix Committed until we find a better way to deal with the upstream status in Launchpad18:57
pedro_the problem is that there's no way to easy see in the launchpad bug list which bug is fixed or not upstream18:58
pedro_that's something we'd like to discuss at UDS with the launchpad team though ;-)18:58
pedro_you're all welcome to join us18:58
pedro_ok that's all from here folks, again if you have a question #ubuntu-bugs and our mailing list are the best for those . Thanks for attending!18:59
akgranerHi all!19:00
akgraner[slide 1]19:00
akgranerHi everyone!   I'm Amber Graner or akgraner on IRC.19:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Women - Instructor: akgraner - Slides: http://is.gd/bXdDy || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
ClassBotSlides for Ubuntu Women: http://frylock.redvoodoo.org/~akgraner/Ubuntu_Women_Session_Open_Week_Lucid.pdf19:01
akgranerI'll be using slides today - so if you want to follow along please do :-)19:01
akgranerjust to make sure slide one is up19:02
akgraner[slide 1]19:02
akgranerthis is my 1st open week session I am leading19:02
akgranerso please be patient with me :-)19:02
akgranerso who am I?19:02
akgranerCurrently I am the Ubuntu Women Project Leader.19:02
akgranerHowever I also wear a couple other hats in the Ubuntu Community as well  - I recently became the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter – Editor-in-Chief and I am active on NC LoCo Team, and helper to jcastro and crew for open week.19:02
akgranerI have a blog called You-In-Ubuntu on www.ubuntu-user.com and contribute to the new Ubuntu User Magazine as well19:03
akgranerThat's probably more information than anyone really wanted to know about me :-D19:03
akgranerSo lets get started -19:03
akgraner[slide 2]19:03
akgraneroday  I want to talk and share with you a few aspects of the Ubuntu Women Project.19:03
akgranerThis talk is about the following:19:03
akgranerWhat is the Ubuntu Women Project?19:03
akgranerCurrent initiatives19:03
akgranerWhy Participation is important19:03
akgranerReview Lucid (10.04) Goals19:03
akgranerPreview Meerkat (10.10) Goals19:03
akgranerHow you can help!19:03
akgranerAnd once we get through this and if there is time we'll have some  Q & A19:03
akgraner(please let me know if I am going to fast to slow etc)19:04
akgraner[slide 3]19:04
akgranerI also wanted to state up front what this talk is NOT –19:05
akgranerA debate on if women/chix/girlz groups are needed19:05
akgraner(they are, enough said)19:05
akgranerA debate on Feminism19:05
akgraner(there is nothing to debate – we believe equality is a good thing)19:05
akgranerA debate on Sexism (what it is or if it exists)19:05
akgraner(It still exists!)19:05
akgranerwhile there are places to discuss those things it's not the focus of today's session19:06
akgraner[slide 4]19:06
akgranerso what is the Ubuntu Women Project19:07
akgranerMelissa Draper (elky) make a great business card that sums up “elevator pitch” style what Ubuntu Women is all about.19:07
akgranerEncouraging Women to use and contribute to Ubuntu19:07
akgranerBut how the how is what we we talk about a little later in the session19:07
akgraner[slide 5]19:07
akgranerI highlighted UWP as I often refer to the project with either UW or UWP. So if I do that today you will know what I am referring to.19:08
akgranerJust a little history about the project  - The project was founded in 2006 by Vid Ayer, then others quickly joined.  In 2007 Elizabeth Krumbach (pleia2) was instrumental in getting all the pieces and parts (mailing list, forums, irc, and website) joined together for one collaborative Ubuntu Women Project working together under shared common goals.19:09
akgranersince 2007 there have been many more outstanding team members  and contributors19:09
akgraner[slide 6]19:10
akgranerThe most important and key word here is  - TEAM.19:10
akgraner Teams are known by their devotion to teamwork rather than individual achievement and the Ubuntu Women Project has a talented, skilled, resourceful, knowledgeable team supporting it that is just amazingly awesome!19:10
akgranerWhile no one is doubting how powerful a statement  the words foster, contributors,  involvement, mentoring, inspiration, projects, boost visibility, women, all, Ubuntu, invite,help, exciting, social, and  rewarding are – none of the stuff the Project does would be possible without the dedicated efforts of the TEAM19:11
akgraner[slide 7]19:11
akgranerThe question now in my mind is how does the Project Accomplish those things listed above.19:11
akgranerLet's take a look at some of the ways-19:11
akgraner[slide 8]19:11
akgranerwe do so with the following19:12
akgranerCurrent Initiatives include19:12
akgraner1st Annual Ubuntu Women International Women's Day Competition19:12
akgraner1st Annual Ubuntu Women World Play Day Competition19:12
akgranerWe are finding great sponsors for these competitions, believe in the merit and worth of the Ubuntu Women Project as much as the team members themselves.19:12
akgranerAlso we try to involve the whole community in the competitions by asking the whole community to take part in voting and not only that but, we ask Jono Bacon, our Ubuntu Community Manager to take part as well.  By doing this we are illustrating that we are and will continue to find ways to encourage women by encouraging and relying upon inclusive community participation.19:13
akgranerThrough these competitions the Ubuntu Women Project  helps increase the visibility of women and girls who use and contribute to Ubuntu.19:13
akgranerRemember the focus in on encouraging women to use and contribute to Ubuntu by mentoring, retaining, inspiring, as well as increasing the visibility of women in the Ubuntu Community through an inclusive, inviting, rewarding, social, and exciting team19:13
akgraner[slide 9]19:14
akgranerSo the UW International Women's Day Competition was new this year to the team and we were able to celebrate and see how many women in the Ubuntu Community discovered Ubuntu in the “How I discovered Ubuntu” story submissions.19:15
akgranerAll the stories were great – and illustrate that each of us (female/male) discover things in very different ways.19:15
akgranerIf you haven't had a chance to read those stories yet, take a moment and go to: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Events/Competitions/InternationalWomensDay/HowIDiscoveredUbuntu?action=show&redirect=InternationalWomensDay/HowIDiscoveredUbuntu19:15
akgranerAnd many thanks again to all those sent in stories, voted, and those who later read them and are encouraged by them.  Remember this WILL be an annual event :-)19:16
akgraner[slide 10]19:16
akgraner1st Annual Ubuntu Women World Play Day Competition19:17
akgranerHaven't heard of this yet then visit: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Events/Competitions/WorldPlayDay19:17
akgraner(as I make of note to advertise these better if you haven't heard of it yet)19:17
akgranerBasically  -19:17
akgraner"We would love to have a collection of examples of young girls (toddlers through to 12 years old) playing with -- and loving, and being encouraged to pursue -- Ubuntu. This would allow parents of girls to demonstrate that it really is ok to be intrigued by the shiny screens, blinking lights, tappity-tap of keyboards, and faint whirs of computer fans."19:17
akgranerThis competition is currently underway.  Do you know of a girl ages 2-12 that uses Ubuntu?19:18
akgranerHave they submitted a photo?  If so thanks!  If not there are only a few days left to get them submitted.19:18
akgranerAll entries must be submitted no later than 2359UTC 14th May 2010  Good Luck!19:18
akgranerRemember those great sponsors I was talking about a minute ago – Many thanks have to go to  Canonical, Linux Pro, Ubuntu Use, private contributors, and most especially ZaReason for their generous netbook and USB necklace which by the way will go to the community choice winner of the competition.19:18
akgranerUbuntu User I meant19:19
akgranerAgain  - community participation  - ZaReason is an Ubuntu based Business and we want to help promote those businesses as well.19:19
akgraner[slide 11]19:19
akgranerthis slide is all about some of our printable resources19:20
akgranerWe also have many talent team members who contribute unselfishly to out resources page.19:20
akgranerIt is always helpful when giving talks, conferences, fest etc to have material about a project you can share with others.   This is some of those resources.19:20
akgranerI never thought I would be the “poster child” for a women's group  - but someone (elky) thought it was a good idea.19:21
akgranerHere are some other folks who helped with these resources:19:21
akgranerOriginal Logo by: Troy Sobotka19:21
akgranerUbuntu Women Project Poster and19:21
akgranerBusiness Cards by: Melissa Draper19:21
akgranerUbuntu Women Project Flier by:19:21
akgranerElizabeth Krumbach and Nuhaa All Bakry19:21
akgranerand as you can see it is a collaborative effort on the part of many - which is fantastic19:22
akgranerWe are always looking for more new and creative resources to help get the word out about the project. - Got an idea lets hear it.19:23
akgranerAt then end of this session there will be a list of ways to get in touch with the team.19:23
akgraner[slide 12]19:23
akgranerThe translation efforts have taken off like wildfire but we still need some more help in translating our wiki pages.19:24
akgranercurrently there are19:25
akgraner39 Languages19:25
akgranerUbuntu Women Project Wiki PagesTranslations have started in19:25
akgraner4 Languages to date: Brazilian Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish19:25
akgranerthe Goal19:25
akgranerThat all women in the Ubuntu Community have access and opportunity to read, use, and contribute to the Ubuntu Women Project Wikis and do so in their own language19:25
akgranerFor more information on UW translation needs please see: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/PagesNeedingTranslated19:26
akgraner[slide 13]19:26
akgranerThe Ubuntu-Women Mentors program allows new Ubuntu contributors to work together with experienced developers, translators, documentation writers, testers, and other skilled contributors.19:26
akgranerto encourage women and newcomers in Ubuntu to increase participation and contribute to tasks where they have no experience and are willing to learn.19:27
akgraner(notice we are not exclusive on who we mentor  - we are inclusive and as such open to all)19:27
akgranerWe are Building on the Motto of:19:28
akgranerAs you will see in just a few slides we are re-vamping and re-organizing this program  - but our end goals remail the same.  Are you currently a mentor in the Ubuntu or FOSS communities?  Are you and ubuntu women team member looking for a mentor if so let us know.19:28
akgraner#ubuntu-women-project on IRC.19:28
akgraner[slide 14]19:29
akgranerThis slide is just a illustration of how participation spiked various reasons after UDS-L and that spike in energy, participation, excitement is what helps the team accomplish the goals of the project.19:29
akgraner[slide 15]19:30
akgranerThis slide shows the rise in people joining our launchpad team which is currently how we track registered team members,  the spikes also line up with participation.19:30
akgraner[slide 16]19:31
akgranerUDS-L was the 1st UDS where the Ubuntu Women Project had a series of sessions dedicated to the success and effectiveness of the Project in the Ubuntu Community19:32
akgranerSince it was founded in 2006 participation and growth have continued19:32
akgranerand in 2009 - serious planning for each cycle started to take shape19:33
akgranerwith roadmaps, blueprints, and recognition in the great FOSS communities19:34
ClassBotmaco asked: what is the slide 14 a graph of? It says "number of attendees", but what is meant by attendees? Attendees to what?19:34
akgranerahh - sorry - the attendees are people who attended the Ubuntu Women Project IRC Meetings19:35
akgranerthe monthly Team meetings19:35
akgraner(thanks for the question I'll fix the slide :-D )19:35
akgranerSo what were those goals for the Lucid cycle?19:36
akgranerWe had 3 Initial Goals which came out of UDS-L19:37
akgraner1. Clarify the purpose of the #ubuntu-women channel19:37
akgraner2. Create a safe (for lack of better word at the time of planning) space IRC channel19:37
akgraner3. Appoint a leader of the Ubuntu Women team, complete with codified expectations around the role19:37
akgranerand as a team we accomplished all of these goals during the Lucid cycle19:38
akgranerFor more information on the UDS_L Goals please go to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Roadmaps/Lucid/UbuntuWomen19:39
akgranerWith UDS-M taking place next week  - we are looking forward to those goals19:40
akgraner[slide 17]19:40
akgranerProject Goals For Maverick:19:41
akgranerWhile I will list all of our ambitions the are only a few that will go on the blueprint19:41
akgranerthe next one being one of them19:41
akgranerUbuntu Women Team to Elect New Leaders19:41
akgranerOnline Team Activity19:42
akgranerCommunity Activity/Event19:42
akgraner 19:42
akgranerMentoring Program19:42
akgranerFor Community  - we are going to focus on the mentoring program19:42
akgranerand if we accomplish this community goal we can add the others as needed19:42
akgranerMarketing and Resources19:43
akgranerThis area is where most of our goals for the Maverick cycle will come from19:43
akgranerRe-design Ubuntu-Women.com website19:43
akgraner 19:43
akgranerRe-design Ubuntu Women Logo19:43
akgranerUbuntu-women clothing19:43
akgranerPresentation at UDS -M -Ubuntu membership stats19:43
akgranerUbuntu-Women Clothing is the only item under Marketing and resources that will not be listed on the Blueprint19:44
akgraner(however if someone wants to design a few things then go for it :-D)19:44
akgraner[slide 18]19:45
akgranerHow Can you help?19:45
akgraner(Good question! - Glad you asked)19:45
akgranerHelp Translate Ubuntu Women Wiki Pages19:46
akgranerEncourage Women in your LoCo Teams to get involved19:46
akgranerAsk Ubuntu Women Team Members to speak about the project to your Team/Group/Project19:46
akgranerDo you mentor in other areas of the Ubuntu Community – sign up become a mentor for the Ubuntu Women Project as well19:47
akgranerInvite Ubuntu Women Team members to speak at conferences/fests/etc19:47
akgraner(and not about the project specifically but about what they do for Open Source19:47
akgranerHelp with Competitions – Know about a Competition that would work well with the goals of the team – suggest it.19:47
akgranerbut that is just the tip of the iceberg - those are those things which at then end of this session you can go and do if you wanted :-)  (shameless hint there)19:48
akgraner[slide 19]19:49
akgranerWhere you can find out more about the Ubuntu Women Project19:49
akgranerwe have a few resources/tools19:50
akgranerUbuntu Women Website - http://www.ubuntu-women.org/19:50
akgranerUbuntu Women IRC Channels on Freenode.net19:50
akgraner#ubuntu-women and #ubuntu-women-project19:50
akgranerUbuntu Women Mailing List - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Women19:50
akgranerUbuntu Women Forum19:50
akgraneras well as19:50
akgranerUbuntu Women Team in Launchpad19:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.19:50
akgranerare there any questions?19:51
akgranerif not19:52
akgraner[slide 19]19:52
akgranerThank You!19:52
akgranerif you want to yak with me in future then I can be found19:52
akgranerIRC nick – akgraner19:53
akgranerEmail: akgraner [ a t ] ubuntu [ d o t ] com19:53
akgraner<johnc4510> akgraner: you seem to be very well organized. Maybe you could give us a little background on yourself that would give us some insight on how you do it.19:53
akgranerI think I just don't know any better :-)19:54
akgranerI am a busy mom with 2 teenagers and a husband who's job has *always* caused him to travel for the last 18 years19:54
akgranerand running an efficient household  - you have to be organizer  (though I fall short a lot but I try )19:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.19:55
akgranerI try to plan my day looking forward  the night before19:56
akgranerhousework in the mornings - ubuntu stuff til the kids get home19:56
akgranerI think the Army also had something to do with planning - there was a motto there  - poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine19:57
akgranerso I try to plan19:57
akgranerQUESTION: what can be done to bring and encourage women to Ubuntu/Linux19:58
akgranergood question  - there is a lot that can be done - and there is no one way to do it19:58
akgranerI would say act locally think globally - meaning look in your "backyard" and those folks and what is happening around you and what their interest are19:59
akgranerbut keep your eye on the bigger FOSS picture to see where people can get involved there as well19:59
=== JFo-afk is now known as JFo
akgranerThanks everybody20:00
akgraneryou all rock!20:00
akgranerIf I didn't answer you pop into #ubuntu-women-project20:00
akgranerand ask away20:00
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Loco Council Q&A - Instructors: czajkowski, leogg || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
czajkowskiAloha ! I'm Laura Czajkowski one of 6 members on the loco council. Todays session with the help of leogg is going to be a general Q&A  session on the loco council what we do and how we can help you all.20:01
czajkowskiIf you've any Questions please ask and we'll do our best to try and answer them for you.20:02
czajkowskiFirstly the loco council is made up of 6 members and we meet monthly and process team approvals and re approvals.20:03
czajkowskiwe're elected to help teams should they need any guidance20:03
czajkowskior run into difficulty.20:03
=== sale_ is now known as sale
czajkowskiwe're often asked to mediate situations within teams and also to help run ideas past .20:04
czajkowskiAny questions so far?20:04
czajkowskiDoes everyone know about the loco council ?20:04
ClassBotpleia2 asked: I encounter a lot of teams who complain that their LoCo team is "too big" to really be "local" - how does the LoCo Council recommend we respond to this? What can we do to help folks who feel this way?20:04
czajkowskiQUESTION: I encounter a lot of teams who complain that their LoCo team is "too big" to really be "local" - how does the LoCo Council recommend we respond to this?  What can we do to help folks who feel this way?20:04
czajkowskijust because a team is named as a loco doesnt mean all your activities have to happen in one place. Meetings, events, talks whatever you run are best run under one umbrella20:05
czajkowskithat;s a great way to utilise the mailing list20:05
czajkowskithe wiki and website and if you use twitter/identi.ca20:05
czajkowskiQUESTION: why are there no non ubuntu (e.g. kubuntu) approved LoCos? Is there a chance that there will be a non ubuntu LoCo and if not why?20:06
czajkowskiI've never heard of these before to be honest. I'm sure if someone tabled a discussion we could look into it20:06
czajkowskiUbuntu is a massive communtiy20:07
czajkowskiwhich welcomes all variations under the umbrella20:07
czajkowskiso I'd say have events under the one team and spread the word that way20:08
paultag<Luyza> QUESTION: How does Ubuntu feel about people recommending other distros to people at a Loco meeting? And/or talking about other distros (for example, on a slow day, when there aren't many Ubuntu-specific questions)20:08
czajkowskithat's not really a LoCo council question, but healthy discussion is good and it's about choice and showing how open source works, obviously if it's an Ubuntu event we'd like to showcase ~Ubuntu at these events20:09
czajkowskiso moving onto more LocO council issues20:09
czajkowskiwe have the Approval Process20:09
czajkowskiTeams can apply for approval and create a wiki20:10
czajkowskimany have done this and have been approved20:10
czajkowskithis would help both the team and meeting time wise20:10
czajkowskimany teams do not use this facility20:10
czajkowskiwe can give you pointers20:10
czajkowskiphotos of events are worth a thousand words on an application20:11
czajkowskievery team after 2 years will now go through a procedure called Re Approval process20:11
czajkowskisame thing, you attend an IRC meeting, once a wiki has been created and we look at the work the team has done over a 2 year period20:11
czajkowskithis is a new thing and was only started in karmic cycle20:12
czajkowskithis is just to help teams who may have lost their footing along the way20:12
czajkowskiand who were once active we can give them a helping hand20:12
czajkowskihow it was done on the last cycle was 30 teams were randomly picked who were over 2 years were accessed20:13
czajkowskiQUESTION: I am a bit confused about the re-approval process is this for every one or just teams that LP membership is about to expire?20:13
czajkowskiIt's for offical approved teams20:13
czajkowskidoes that make sense??20:14
czajkowskiSo team reports20:14
czajkowskiteam reports really should be done by all teams,20:14
czajkowskiif you have an irc meeting, a meet up, talk, gathering, hold an event20:15
czajkowskiwrite it down in the monthly report20:15
czajkowskithis is a great way for you to keep track of your events for your approval or re approval20:15
czajkowskiMany teams are not doing reports :( this makes us sad20:15
=== Luyza is now known as lifestream
czajkowskiit's also a way for us to see what teams may need help. if for months they've run events and all of a sudden stop, they we can see if we can help them20:16
czajkowskiI've started to run - well one so far a LoCo health check. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoHealthCheck20:16
czajkowskiso it's another chance to meet the loco council and ask questions that maybe you don't know or want more details on.20:17
czajkowskiI'll also hopefully be asking members of other development teams in to do a Q&A session to encourage more discussion betweetn community and other areas20:17
czajkowskiAny questions?20:18
czajkowski20:18 < MarkDude> QUESTION: problem solving with locos, leaders members, etc?  How does it work?20:19
czajkowskiat times in the past, we've had members of teams mail us with issues regarding loco team leaders20:19
czajkowskiwe've listened to them20:19
czajkowskiand then we contact the team leader and see how we can fix the issue20:19
czajkowskiin some cases for example, it could be a case of the team leader having left the team and not said anything which makes running the team more difficult20:20
czajkowskiin other cases it could be a case of people just not working together with one another20:20
czajkowskiwe try and mediate20:20
czajkowski20:20 < mhall119> QUESTION: How are things decided within the LC?  Is is majority rule, consensus?  How is deliberation done?20:20
czajkowskiwe chat really, and work on things via email and irc.20:21
czajkowskiI'm rather new at this :) I'm on the council since November and since then we've worked on things as a team. we discuss items back and forth. Coming to an outome20:22
czajkowskiI think paultag itnet7_lernid would agree with that20:22
czajkowskiwe do split items up20:23
czajkowskiI don't speak Spanish for example and if a team mails us in Spanish, someone would reply to them in Spanish and in English20:23
czajkowskiwe share the workload20:23
czajkowskiAny other Questions/thoughts/Comments20:24
czajkowskiMarkDude: did that make sense?20:24
czajkowskiI would hope if teams had issues with team leaders they did try and solve it before they came to us,20:25
czajkowskibut I've no problem in helping anyone if they need it20:25
czajkowskithere is also the leadership code of conduct20:25
czajkowski20:24 < mhall119> QUESTION: Besides team reapprovals, what plans does the LC have for the Maveric cycle?20:25
czajkowskiohhhh good question!20:25
czajkowskiI really want to work on getting feedback from community to canonical in a more productive manner hence why I've started the health check, which the wiki needs some love on20:26
czajkowskiI'd like to help teams help themselves before it gets to the point of internal conflict so setting some basic guidelines20:27
czajkowskiwhat teams should do to helpthemselves20:27
czajkowski1) monthly meetings - publish the results on the wiki and on mailing list20:27
czajkowski2) share duties, rotate roles20:27
czajkowskia really good idea is also internal mentoring, showing other people how to do things20:28
czajkowskithere is no point in you being the only admin on the mailing list , if you go away, nobody else knows what to do or how to do it20:28
czajkowskiso these kinda of things help teams to do some basic house keeping20:29
czajkowskiSharing roles within the team is advisable20:29
itnet7We have been having a lot of diverse issues lately, so we are trying to work through them and proactively show others how to avoid these issues20:29
czajkowskido not have 1-2 team in charge of any one job if at all possible, have more!20:29
czajkowskiif you have one admin on wiki/mailing list/website then you're doing something wrong20:30
czajkowskiyou can quote me on that!20:30
czajkowski20:29 < mhall119> QUESTION: I've been involved in the loco directory, what other tools can be made to help locos?20:30
czajkowskimhall119: you and others have done a great job on the loco directory20:30
czajkowskiI wrote back when I met keffie_jayx_ at UDS Karmic about a feature where we create an event, then mail that to the teams. I still think that would be great20:31
czajkowskiI think we need to get teams to use it fully, then do a feedback session at some point20:31
czajkowskiwhat would you like to see the LC do to help you20:32
czajkowskiThere are 6 of us. Surely we can help you and your teams20:32
czajkowski mhall119> QUESTION: I'm not sure if you've been involved or not, but status.net has setup a domain for Ubuntu locoteams, what are the plans for that?20:33
czajkowskiI've not been involved in it20:33
czajkowskiis it closed source ?20:33
czajkowskipossibly if folks want us to use it, asking for input would be good, if there is a session at UDS I'm sure we'll take part in it if we can20:34
czajkowskiANy other thoughts?20:35
czajkowskiDid you know you can email us at any time,20:35
czajkowskiwe are on IRC but not all of us run screen sessions20:35
czajkowskiplease be patient if you do mail us , 3 of us are in the EU, the others are in the states and south america, so allow for time zones20:36
czajkowskiagain if status.net is open source, and folks want us to use it I'm sure we could look into it.20:37
czajkowskiQUESTION: What communication/interaction does the LC have with Canonical?20:39
czajkowskiSOmetimes people mail jono re issues when they could just as easily mail us before hand or may not know about mailing is. this is fine. WE look into the issues and keep jono updated of teams and issues20:40
czajkowskiso we do mail canonical folks when we need answers or issues come to light20:40
czajkowskicanonical folks are very helpful and offer help when we need it20:40
paultagUbuntu and Canonical are no longer as strongly tied as they used to be -- That's why Mark Shuttleworth stepped down as CEO of Canonical, and as czajkowski said, they are very helpful and willing to aid Ubuntu :)20:41
czajkowskimhall119> QUESTION: How about regular communication?  Does the LC report on community activities/health so that they know what's going on?20:42
czajkowskiThere was a time when there were no reports going to the UWN - I've tried to rectify that20:42
czajkowskiand post the outcomes of the meetings to the mailing list20:43
czajkowskiagain if we're pushing for loco teams to do reports20:43
czajkowskiwe need to lead by example20:43
itnet7Monthly reports are very important, they motivate new teams20:44
itnet7and encourage everyone20:44
czajkowskithey also give other teams ides on events to run20:44
czajkowskiAnything else?20:45
czajkowskiless than 15 mins left?20:47
czajkowskiitnet7: paultag any other comments20:48
paultagI think you've covered it quite well czajkowski :)20:48
itnet7I think it's important for everyone to note that the LC is here for all of you, if you have any issue and would like for us to weigh in please ping us in ubuntu-locoteams20:48
czajkowskihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil we have also this cycle made a massive effort to get our pages trasnlated20:49
czajkowskiif you can help here that'd be great20:49
paultagQUESTION: what we need to be an approved loco team? (i mean what we should do with community, instead of getting approved on wiki)20:49
czajkowskiYou can reach the council via mail: loco-council<at>lists.ubuntu.com20:49
czajkowskiyltsrc: run events, meet ups, spread the Ubuntu word20:49
czajkowskidocument these things, take photos20:50
czajkowskirun an Ubuntu hour20:50
czajkowskiwhich is meeting up with other team memebrs20:50
ClassBotThere are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.20:50
czajkowskiyltsrc: if you need a hand do let us know20:51
czajkowskiSo teams use twitter/facebook/identi.ca this is fine, using the ububtu logo is fine in this case as we had an issue yesterday where a team leader said it was not ok20:52
czajkowskiit is20:52
czajkowskiyltsrc> QUESTION: where i can read about usual loco processes (in team) and howto manage loco successfully?20:54
czajkowskiyltsrc: this is something I hope to work on for the next cycle20:55
ClassBotThere are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.20:55
paultagcan you hone in on what aspect yltsrc?20:56
czajkowskiyltsrc> QUESTION: and where i do start? :)20:56
czajkowskiyltsrc: where are you from ??20:56
czajkowskiyltsrc: I'll give you a hand after this session and help you set up if you like20:57
czajkowskifinally - http://loco.ubuntu.com/20:58
czajkowskiloco directory20:58
czajkowskiplease use it and give feedback to the developers!20:58
czajkowskiit's GREAT!20:58
czajkowskiok that's it folks20:59
czajkowskithanks for taking part20:59
=== ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
akgranerGreat Session!21:02
akgranerThank you czajkowski itnet7 et all! :-)21:02
akgranerThat concludes Open Week for today21:02
akgranerHope to see everyone back at 1500 UTC tomorrow :-)21:03
=== sale_ is now known as sale
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