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humphreybchello all13:00
humphreybcAyatana UX team, assemble?13:00
adayhello hello13:01
humphreybcmpt's not here yet13:01
aysiuHey there13:01
adaytut tut13:01
humphreybche's in Brussels13:01
humphreybcif he doesn't show up in 5 minutes then we'll just start without him, that sound okay?13:01
vishhumphreybc: i think he forgot , just pinged him13:01
wersHello :)13:01
humphreybcnow _that_ is what I call timing13:01
humphreybcgood work Scotty13:02
mpt_I'll deny any accusation of forgetting13:02
humphreybcokay, shall we begin?13:02
werslet us :)13:02
mpt_So who's here?13:02
adayi'm not13:02
humphreybcbonjour, mpt13:03
humphreybcgodbyk is also here13:03
aysiuaysiu here. My first IRC ever.13:03
mpt_Hi aysiu, welcome, and thanks for being up at this hour13:03
humphreybcmpt_: are ye going to use mootbot?13:03
aysiu5:00 am here13:03
wersaysiu, first ever? wow13:03
humphreybcaysiu: oh god!13:03
mpt_humphreybc, I don't know how to do that, do you?13:03
humphreybcmpt_: sure13:03
MootBotMeeting started at 07:03. The chair is humphreybc.13:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]13:03
humphreybcmpt_: it makes me the chair though, just tell me what topics you'd like me to set13:04
mpt_Unfortunately my Canonical compadres are busy at this design sprint thingy13:04
mpt_yes, introductions13:04
humphreybc[TOPIC] Introductions!13:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Introductions!13:04
humphreybcaysiu: after you :)13:05
aysiuUbuntu user for five years.13:05
aysiuNew to IRC, as you all know now.13:05
aysiuI live in California and work in a school in the admission office.13:05
aysiuAnd I help out on the Ubuntu Forums occasionally as a moderator.13:06
humphreybcaysiu: awesome :)13:06
mpt_I invited aysiu to help with communication between designers and users on the forums13:06
adaympt_: cool13:06
wersmpt_, that's gonna help a lot13:07
mpt_So, for everyone else13:07
humphreybcwers: after you!13:07
mpt_How about we just compose two or three sentences and post them all at once. That way we don't need to wait for anyone.13:07
humphreybcmpt_: that sounds good13:07
mpt_Just who you are, where you're from, what your area of interest is.13:07
wersI'm Allan Caeg from Philippines. 20. Psych grad. UX Specialist currently at work.13:08
wersit's 8pm here. doing overtime. i actually have work to do but i cant miss this. hehe13:08
mpt_I'm Matthew Thomas, I work on Canonical's Design team as an interface designer, and I'm interested in encouraging more distributed design and UX activities.13:08
godbykMy name is Kevin Godby. I'm currently a PhD student at Iowa State University in the human-computer interaction program (with a background in psychology and computer science). I'm currently procrastinating on my dissertation.13:08
humphreybcMy name is Benjamin Humphrey and I'm a 19 year old New Zealander and I've been using Ubuntu for about a year. I'm studying computer science in Dunedin at Otago University. My involvement in Ubuntu comprises of founding/leading the Ubuntu Manual project, helping with documentation and offering design feedback and mockups for various things.13:09
thorwili'm a visual and wannabe interaction designer (freelance). germany, not far away from the netherlands. have been busy in the ubuntu-artwork realm and lately working with humphreybc and godbyk on the ubuntu manual, where i'm responsible for the title page13:09
mpt_hi mgunes, I was just wondering if you were going to make it :-)13:09
mpt_we're doing introductions13:09
adaymy name's Allan Day, i'm a research student based in the uk. i'm a volunteer for the gnome project. i mainly work on interface design and usability stuff13:09
mguneshi mpt; I seem to have connection problems (I'm at a cafe). I'll try to reconnect and catch up with you if I drop again.13:10
mpt_Is that everyone?13:10
vishHi, I'm Vishnoo , been using ubuntu for a while .. as a hobby i'v become one of the pixel pushers , doing icons around the desktop. You'd often find me working on Humanity icons or shepherding papercut bugs. Other themes I'v worked on are the Breathe icons , notify-osd , ubuntu-mono , and recently for upstream gnome-icon , gnome-icon-symbolic too.. for apps like empathy , poppler , software center. When I'm bored of doing icons, I nit-pick on mpt's13:10
vish designs or doing some mockups .13:10
humphreybcI think that's everyone now13:10
humphreybcapart from Murat13:11
hyperairHi, I'm Loong Jin, a MOTU and maintainer of Banshee in Debian, a 2nd year computer engineering student in singapore.13:11
mpt_So, next topic: What this team is for13:11
humphreybc[TOPIC] What are ya'll here for?13:11
MootBotNew Topic:  What are ya'll here for?13:11
mpt_I have been chatting with Jono Bacon, Master of Community about this13:11
mpt_Particularly the process for people joining etc13:12
mpt_I want to avoid as much bureaucracy as possible, because (a) we don't have any authority so process isn't as important, and (b) the sort of people who are good at UX stuff are often really busy and don't want to get involved in lots of process13:13
humphreybcmpt_: +1 Bureaucracy = nothing gets done.13:13
mpt_I've sent him a proposed charter, which is really simple, and once he's reviewed it I'll send it out to all of you13:13
mgunesI'm Murat Gunes. I'm currently working as a freelance web / interactive designer, and have studied fine arts and visual design. My Ubuntu involvement has consisted mostly of bug triage and community support / moderation for the past few years. I've digested an unhealthy amount of of UX / Interaction design / HCI theory lately, and am looking to put things into practice with this team.13:14
humphreybcmpt_: what's the rest of the design team's involvement in this?13:14
mpt_thanks mgunes13:14
mpt_The really short version is that we're not gatekeepers, we're not making design decisions, we're just trying to oil the wheels and encourage design and UX activities.13:14
mpt_Those of you who are subscribed to the ayatana@ mailing list will have seen that we have no shortage of interesting ideas.13:14
humphreybcmpt_: I think that's an understatement13:15
thorwili thought it was no shortage of noise, actually ;)13:15
humphreybcthorwil: yeah, absolutely13:15
mpt_What we do have a shortage of is things like wireframes, implementable mini-specifications, user testing, user research, that sort of thing.13:15
mpt_And focus. A shortage of focus. :-)13:15
humphreybcmpt_: So, less random ideas and noise, more useful stuff?13:15
vish30~40 mails a day is too much to read :s13:16
mpt_So, with that in mind ... next topic: What activities we could set up13:16
humphreybcvish: I know, I have almost stopped reading them now.13:17
wersyeah. good thing gmail has threads13:17
mpt_(humphreybc, that's your cue;-)13:18
* humphreybc is thinking13:18
vishhumphreybc: change topic13:18
humphreybcSo, what we want to do is encourage *good* design, right13:18
humphreybc[TOPIC] What activities we could set up, yes yes13:18
MootBotNew Topic:  What activities we could set up, yes yes13:18
mpt_MootBot is in agreement13:18
humphreybcRight now, we have a lot of ideas and things, but they never really eventuate into anything. Why not?13:18
mpt_Because people don't know what the next step is13:19
hyperairbecause the mailing list is chaotic and nobody reads it anymore.13:19
mpt_Brainstorm is like this too13:19
wersthat's right mpt_13:19
mpt_"Hey, what about..."13:19
humphreybcBrainstorm IS like this too13:19
adayand because devs aren't always willing to implement recommendations13:19
aysiuCan you clarify what you mean by "activities"?13:19
mpt_So, in my mails to you I suggested a few activities we might want to help set up13:19
humphreybcmpt_: I think we need to establish exactly what we need to do before we start thinking about how we should do it13:19
hyperairthe mockups all get thrown into the mailing list, and get lost when a new discussion starts up and drowns the previous, which is very common in ayatana-list.13:20
mpt_For example, distributed user testing13:20
humphreybcA centralized location for quality design would be nice13:20
wershumphreybc, that would be cool13:20
hyperairi think the wiki could function for this.13:20
wersgood design repo13:20
adaythe gnome design crowd are busy working on collaboration tools13:20
adaysome of that should bear fruit in not too long13:20
wersaday, yeah. mairin's hub13:20
vishsparklepony? ;)13:20
thorwilthe wiki might be the best we have, but it's actually a horrible thing13:20
humphreybcAn area (maybe a wiki for now) where we could actually post _tasks_ that are high priority for Ubuntu. People could have a crack at these tasks13:20
mpt_That's an activity that would have several stages -- we'd want to set up a recommended procedure, work on improving/automating screen capture and webcam capture, things like that13:20
hyperairaday: link?13:20
adaysparklepony! :D13:21
mgunesI was thinking in the lines of ubuntu-classroom sessions on the "101" or "what is what" of wireframes, heuristic evaluation, spec writing, etc.13:21
humphreybcI agree, the wiki is not the answer in the long run13:21
mgunesthat's one thing I can participate in13:21
humphreybcI think a lot of people want to help design but don't know where to help13:21
humphreybcthey're designing blind13:21
wersbrb boss is calling13:21
humphreybcthere's no information about target audience, or no information about what problems Ubuntu has - other than what each designer personally thinks, or what projects like the papercuts project pulls up13:22
thorwilyeah, we should try to spread design education13:22
mpt_So, user research is another activity13:22
adayacheivable tasks are good. in gnome we're trying to review a lot of ui, cleaning up preferences dialogs etc13:22
mpt_Who uses Ubuntu, what do they use it for, how old are they, what languages do they speak, etc13:22
thorwili'd love to throw a whole lot of infrastructure at that, but i doubt we have the ressources in man hours13:22
mpt_I have no idea how we'd research that, but other people probably would.13:22
humphreybcWhat we should be doing is taking information from the design team on problems in Ubuntu and working closely with Canonical to figure out a list of things that actually *need* definite improvement. Then we can spur focused discussion on the important stuff.13:22
vishmpt_: i think first we need to snip the noise before people try to waste their time too.. send a mail that we like that people have these new ideas  , but currently not within the scope? , but rather to setup a wiki like :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts   . ayatana/concepts ?13:22
humphreybcSo mpt_, as I understand it, our team is to mainly organize the work, rather than complete it ourselves?13:23
mpt_humphreybc, exactly13:23
humphreybcSo we're sort of a middle man between Canonical and design, and the community?13:23
mpt_This isn't about the Canonical Design team so much13:23
humphreybcBut more about channeling all those ideas from Ayatana into something useful?13:24
mpt_If people can design something awesome and get it implemented and into Ubuntu completely independently, that's great13:24
mpt_For example, we want application developers to be able to make their applications great without having to ask Canonical for help13:24
humphreybcOne activity we could do to start out would be to organize pairing up UI experts with programmers13:25
mpt_yes, it's about channeling13:25
vishmpt_: .. how about having a FAQ section for the design changes?  some of the questions keep getting repeated often , much too often13:26
humphreybcSo, some programmer has a great idea to write an app, but isn't too sure on how to design it or wants feedback on their design. They approach us, we choose some eager UX person from the community to pair them up with the programmer. End result = awesome, usable program.13:26
adaythere's a lot of talk about exciting/sexy new stuff at the expense of polishing what we've already got. it would be nice to review existing interfaces and get them up to scratch13:26
humphreybcmpt_: I also think we should be encouraging more open design from the design team. By encouraging, I mean actually helping out where we can because I know you guys are busy.13:26
mpt_vish, for changes that come from the Canonical Design team, we'll be posting rationales on design.canonical.com. For changes that come from sabdfl, he'll post on markshuttleworth.com. :-)13:26
mpt_aday, yes, that's a good example13:27
vishaday: ++13:27
mpt_There was actually an example of that on ayatana@ a couple of months ago13:27
mpt_Robert Ancell asked for a usability review of Simple Scan13:27
humphreybcgodbyk is making some banana bread, apparently. He'll be active soon.13:27
humphreybcmpt_: Right. So instead of the Ayatana ML pouncing on him with all sorts of crazy ideas, he could come to us and we'd pair him up with a suitable person.13:28
mpt_but he didn't get any responses afaik13:28
adaywe sometimes get requests for reviews on the gnome usability list13:28
vishmpt_: yeah , i mentioned that he should try the gnome UX mailing list instead13:28
mpt_Well, it might be an interesting experiment to see if people who aren't experienced designers can follow instructions on doing a heuristic evaluation13:28
adaympt_: that's a shame. i always try and respond on the gnome channels. been doing a review of deja dup as a result of a request13:29
humphreybcSo to do any of this, people have to know we exist. We're a ghost project right now, no web presence or anything. How do we educate people about our team and get them involved?13:29
vishaday: he sent it to ayatana mailing list :)13:29
humphreybccan we use this for some activities? http://fivesecondtest.com/13:29
humphreybcMaybe we figure out something we'd like to test, then spread awareness of it and create something like a "User Interface testing day" or something13:30
mpt_I'm sure we could13:30
humphreybcget the community involved in testing, it's easy and anyone can do it.13:30
humphreybcThe community would feel like they're helping with design if we make it obvious the results will be listened to.13:30
mpt_So, let's have some actions for this meeting13:30
humphreybcSure. First action would be to talk at UDS some more, right?13:31
mpt_First, would someone like to volunteer to set up a wiki page where we can list all the activities we'd like to do13:31
mpt_Not all of us will be at UDS, humphreybc :-)13:31
mguneshumphreybc, in my experience, making the masses aware of the difference between "listened to" and "implemented" is extremely difficult, so I'd be cautious there.13:31
humphreybcmpt_: Sure, but there's always remote participation. What I'm saying is that we need another meeting to iron out the team goals, we can't go rushing into organizing activities when we still don't know what we're trying to fix, right?13:32
godbykIt sounds like we also need to work on educating people on how to do UI reviews and design proposals, as well.13:32
vishaday: if you wanna follow up on the simple scan review > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00987.html13:32
mpt_thanks vish13:32
adayvish: cheers. will have a go13:32
humphreybcI firmly believe a website will be a better in the long run than a wiki. A wiki is fine for now, but we should start thinking about a site instead.13:32
mpt_The difficulty of starting with Simple Scan is that its limited to the subset of users who have a scanner13:32
humphreybcIf we stick it on an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be even better.13:33
mpt_but Robert would also like us to review the trunk version of Sudoku (not the version in Lucid)13:33
mpt_because that's had a lot of design changes lately13:33
mgunesif a significant number of us have blogs, we could set up a "Planet Ayatana UX" too13:33
mpt_Unfortunately I am at a design sprint and I need to get back to work soon-ish13:34
humphreybcmgunes: We could, but in my experience from UMP, it doesn't really help that much.13:34
humphreybcTwitter feeds and a Facebook group are far better at spreading news than an aggregated blog.13:34
humphreybcmpt_: heh13:35
mpt_So, sometime today or tomorrow, I will post to ayatana@ with an introduction to heuristic evaluations, and an invitation for people to try evaluating Sudoku as a simple example13:35
mpt_And we'll see how that goes13:35
mpt_Maybe it will be noise13:35
mpt_Maybe it will be useful13:35
humphreybcI don't hold high hopes for getting the ayatana ML to do a heuristic evaluation on something from trunk13:36
humphreybcIf we want the community to help us do this work, we need to make it super easy for them. As you said before, UX type people are usually really busy as it is13:36
mpt_We'll need to provide step-by-step instructions on getting the code, yes13:36
thorwilmpt_: how about doing a brainstorm on etherpad, to later turn that into a wiki page?13:36
humphreybcBut I understand it's early days13:36
humphreybcand we can't exactly launch some huge website and CMS with such limited manpower :P13:37
mpt_Does anyone want to volunteer to set up a document on other activities we should set up?13:37
mpt_I don't mind whether it's Etherpad or a wiki page or something else13:37
humphreybcmpt_: I could probably do it on the plane to UDS.13:37
thorwilone moment13:37
humphreybcI'll have a lot of time O.o13:37
MootBotLINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux13:37
mpt_thanks thorwil13:38
humphreybc[ACTION] Set up a document for brainstorming activities13:38
MootBotACTION received:  Set up a document for brainstorming activities13:38
humphreybc[ACTION] mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation13:38
MootBotACTION received:  mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation13:38
humphreybcAnother meeting at some point?13:38
mpt_I've scheduled a meeting for the same time every week13:38
humphreybcoh nice13:38
humphreybcSo that wasn't a mistake :P13:38
mpt_If this time becomes horrible for you, please update the meeting times wiki page13:38
mpt_and we'll recalculate :-)13:39
humphreybcI think this is a good start13:39
humphreybcIf anyone comes up with ideas, stick em on the pad13:39
mpt_yes, this is exciting13:39
mpt_Thank you everyone for turning up13:39
humphreybcI'll put some stuff on the pad in a minute13:39
humphreybcThankyou guys!13:40
wersok. boss is out i'm back13:40
wersis it done? hehe13:40
humphreybcwers: pretty much :P13:40
adaywers: too late :)13:40
humphreybcOh, also, we need a mailing list13:40
humphreybcShall I set that up?13:40
mpt_Thank you wers for providing such an excellent example of how we're too busy for bureaucracy13:40
aysiuI'm still digesting... to be honest, I don't know if I can meet every week at this time.13:40
godbykhumphreybc: Just set one up through launchpad then.13:40
mpt_humphreybc, sure, just activate the LP team mailing list13:41
wersaw. haha13:41
humphreybci'll do that now13:41
MootBotMeeting finished at 07:41.13:41
wersgood thing there's a log13:41
adaysee you next week :)13:41
humphreybcwers: yeah13:41
wershopefully, no overtime for me next week. see you!13:41
humphreybceither at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ or irclogs.ubuntu.com should do the trick13:41
mpt_aysiu, that would be quite understandable. Perhaps you can have a different role, e.g. posting, to our new mailing list, links to forum threads that involve design issues13:41
wersmailing list please so we can reply at our convenient times :D13:42
humphreybcwers: yep, i'll set it up in a jiffy13:42
aysiuI think that sounds more manageable. I'd love to help out, but I also don't know if participating directly in these IRC chats is maximizing my strengths.13:42
vishgodbyk: hehe , we both posted the link at the same time ;)13:42
godbykvish: I noticed!13:43
mpt_aysiu, cool13:43
aysiuI don't even know what a heuristic evaluation is!13:43
aysiuI will check out the IRC logs, though. And if there is a mailing list, let me know.13:43
godbykaysiu: The mailing list will appear on the bottom of this page: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-ux13:44
mgunesdo LP mailing lists automatically subscribe all team members upon creation?13:44
godbyk(once it's been set up)13:44
mgunesI seem to recall they did when they were new13:44
mpt_mgunes, I don't know13:45
mpt_We should make clear that the mailing list is just for organizational stuff, design questions belong in ayatana@ (or equivalent Gnome or KDE lists)13:45
wersmpt_, which mailing list? the one that's going to be created for ayatana ux?13:46
mpt_wers, yes13:46
humphreybcI've already had to decline someone who wanted to join the team an I awkwardly explained why :s13:46
vishhumphreybc: you can just not approve ;) , no need to decline :)13:47
humphreybcvish: ah, forgot about that bit13:47
mgunesI'm somewhat worried about the notion of the "Ayatana" label covering all interaction design activities. This applies to the Ayatana ML too, which has become the place to throw ideas around about all design issues, not necessarily the Ayatana project.13:47
humphreybcmpt_: should we set up our own IRC room or not so much13:48
wersmgunes, oh yes13:48
mpt_humphreybc, I don't think so, #ayatana is quiet enough13:48
vishhumphreybc: no! -113:48
humphreybcmust be quieter than the ML!13:48
godbykI've never been sure of what the scope of the Ayatana project actually is. :)13:48
humphreybcgodbyk, you're not alone13:48
vishgodbyk: heh , joining the party late? ;p13:49
mpt_mgunes, yeah, I originally intended to use the name Ubuntu instead, but Jono made the good point that we want upstream developers to feel welcome asking us for help (or getting suggestions from us)13:49
mpt_godbyk, originally it was "stuff around the outside of the screen", i.e. notifications and menus13:50
wersi really have to go now. see you next week :)13:50
mpt_godbyk, now it's "UX of software in and for Ubuntu"13:50
mpt_see you wers13:50
humphreybcmpt_: that's somewhat vague13:50
mpt_yes, it is13:50
godbykvish: Yeah, I've been reading, just not commenting much.  Had to babysit some baking banana bread. :)13:51
mpt_I don't think that's a bug, though. It has a hard center and a vague perimeter.13:51
mgunesmpt_, if that's the case (I wasn't really aware that it was) , then the word Ayatana is OK.13:51
humphreybcit's more like an "Ayatana: Random design idea moshpit."13:51
vishgodbyk: i meant the "not knowing the scope" party ;)13:51
godbykmpt_: I don't feel so bad about being confused now!13:51
godbykvish: Ah.. yeah, that too!13:51
humphreybcmpt_: Would we be working on improving Ayatana itself, or are we entirely separate?13:52
adayhumphreybc: designer tools stuff: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-one-where-the-designers-ask-for-a-pony/13:52
adaythat stuff seems to be coming together now13:52
mpt_humphreybc, I don't understand the question13:52
godbykaday: Excellent! I was hoping it would, but wasn't holding my breath.13:52
humphreybcmpt_: So Ayatana is a bit of a moshpit of ideas right now, and I don't think it's entirely useful (or at least not reaching its full potential). Would we work on improving that, or would we stay out of Ayatana stuff13:53
mpt_humphreybc, the former13:54
humphreybcokay, good13:54
mpt_but not throwing our weight around, just making suggestions of things to do13:54
thorwiltoo much orange on the pad13:55
vishthorwil: nice work! :)13:55
thorwilheh, ty13:56
humphreybcthorwil: lol13:56
humphreybcwell that's your job, right? Pad writer?13:56
humphreybcOfficial Ayatana UX Team note taker.13:56
vishthorwil: awesome! last entry13:57
humphreybcI'm not sure if I'll have time to make this project rock as much as I'd like to, we already have enough on our plate for UMP! That is, unless, someone starts paying me to work on these projects? hint.. hint...14:00
mgunesI need to part right now - I'll check the rest of the logs. See you on the ML!14:01
mpt_see you mgunes14:01
humphreybc"This team's mailing list will be available within a few minutes."14:01
humphreybcchow mgunes14:01
* hyperair considers dropping the "chow" hilight14:02
godbykSo what're our very next step?  (Or, more specifically, what's the very next thing I should be doing? :))14:02
hyperaireverytime someone misspells ciao, i get highlighted.14:02
godbykhyperair: keep it as long as you promise to berate those who use it for spelling errors. :)14:02
* hyperair throws tomatoes at humphreybc 14:02
vishhyperair: chowder?  ;p14:02
humphreybcgodbyk, not sure. I guess we just wait for the reaction to mpt's email to ayatana tomorrow14:03
humphreybcI'd like to get some web presence for our project up soon14:03
humphreybchyperair: why do you have chow on highlight anyway?14:03
vishgodbyk: probably wait for mpt's mail and reply from jono14:03
hyperairhumphreybc: my surname.14:03
vishhumphreybc: his name!14:03
humphreybcI don't think Pidgin can do highlighting. Which is a bit sad.14:03
vishhumphreybc: we should stop chatting here , since this is a meeting channel :)14:04
hyperairaye sir14:04
humphreybcvish: yeah, i might get banned14:04
humphreybcmove to #ubuntu-manual, we're allowed to chat as much as we like there :D14:05
humphreybcit's basically a chatroom14:05
thorwilyeah, but don't dare to use #ayatana14:05
humphreybcthorwil: lol14:05
* hyperair uses #ayatana as a rant-place14:05
humphreybcI wish I had the time to read all the messages in the ayatana ML14:06
humphreybcbut it's getting out of hand, seems to be more emails in there than ever from this cycle14:06
* hyperair suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users of the indicator-applet who lament the loss of the tooltips14:07
* humphreybc also suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users with the choice to move the window buttons to the left14:11
hyperairyes, agreed.14:12
adaythe gnome shell list is similar in many respects. i think people just like to bike shed14:16
godbykI think a lot of the bike-shedding discussions could be mitigated if actual data were presented.14:17
godbykBut that never actually happens.14:17
humphreybcgodbyk, do we even have actual data to present in the first place?14:23
godbykI assume that Canonical occasionally might.14:24
godbykBut in general, no.14:24
godbykI'm suggesting we should start gathering data instead of just collecting everyone's opinions.14:24
humphreybcgodbyk, yep, and we need to write up that idea on the wiki for our session at UDS14:25
ScottKIn general, I think the accumulated habits and learning of existing users get insufficient attention and value from designers.14:29
ScottKIf they valued it more, they'd get less resistance.14:30
godbykScottK: Sometimes, though, those habits have been developed to cope with poorly designed software. And improving the underlying design, despite requiring some people to relearn things, is better for everyone.14:31
ScottKgodbyk: Sometimes.  Often the marginal benefit is not worth it.14:32
adayalso, many the people on these lists aren't representative of the majority of users14:33
D4mi4ndid anybody tried to use the blackberry us modem ?14:33
ScottKD4mi4n: Use #ubuntu for help.14:34
ScottKaday: That's true, but neither are designers.14:34
godbykScottK: Right. One of the first rules that designers learn is that you're almost never designing the product for yourself.14:35
ScottKMy experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.14:36
godbykI don't think that developers are disconnected with their users, but they are often only interested in incremental changes and don't want to tackle the fundamental design flaws in their software.14:38
godbykAnd that's understandable given the amount of effort it takes and the time they've put into the existing code base, etc.14:38
ScottKThat hasn't been my experience.  IME they generally don't know how to do it and welcome well considered inputs.14:39
humphreybcScottK: you should read "The Inmates are running the Asylum" if you haven't already14:40
ScottKI'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it hasn't been my experience.14:41
ScottKThe larger problem in my experience has been developers having too narrow a focus to understand how their development area fits in a larger context.14:41
ScottKOnce they get that, then a lot of resistance to change vanishes.14:41
godbykSure. Unfortunately, when I've made suggestions, I've often been met with the 'we accept patches' response.14:42
ScottKWhich can either be a function of how you approach the communication or the project's openness to outside input.14:42
vishScottK: ++1 :D   <ScottK> My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.14:43
godbykI think that it's also a response they provide because a lot of the time, when someone says, 'You should do this completely differently,' it's not backed up by any meaningful reasons.14:44
ScottKhttp://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/03/open_source_usability_success.html for an example of it going well.14:44
godbykScottK: nice! it's good to see stories of usability working well with open source projects.14:46
vishgodbyk: like for the current buttons switch , if the windicators were announced at the time of the switch , it would have gotten far less resistance [not that the idea is great ;) ] but a better reception14:47
vishbut it seems  the windicators were developed as an aftermath of the response ;p14:48
godbykvish: I agree completely.  I think the way that situation was handled was absolutely horrible.14:48
godbykAnd it doesn't at all help relations between developers and designers.14:48
godbykOr instill any confidence in the recommendations that designers provide.14:48
humphreybcI also think the aftermath wasn't handled particularly well by the design team, or Mark, or Jono who's the Community Manager.14:48
humphreybcIt's safe to say Jono didn't do a whole lot of managing the community during that period14:49
humphreybcbut hey14:49
humphreybcall in the past now14:49
humphreybcI just hope the lessons were learnt14:49
vishScottK: btw , nice work on the kubutnu netbook , i tested the cd and it seems really neat14:49
humphreybcbut from what I hear, this tends to happen quite often. I wouldn't be surprised if the exact same thing happens for Maverick - breaking UI freezes, landing stuff really late without telling anyone, etc etc14:50
ScottKvish: Thanks.  It's mostly upstream's work, we just put the pieces together.14:50
ScottKvish: If you ever want to chat with the plasma-netbook developers/designers (it's the same people on that project) there is now a #plasma-netbook channel.14:51
vishScottK: neat.. will do , thanks14:52
vishhumphreybc: rickspencer mentioned there wont be UIFe for maverick ;)  not sure how far it will work though14:58
humphreybcno UI freeze?14:58
humphreybcwell, won't that just be fun.14:58
vishhumphreybc: the UIF will exist but no exceptions..14:59
persiaThere will be a UI Freeze.  There will likely be UIFe requests.  I suspect the statement is intended to mean that none are planned in advance.14:59
persiaExceptions are *always* granted at some level, because sometimes there are bugs that *are* release-critical but require a UIFe.14:59
vishpersia: i think he meant like for the changes we made this cycle15:00
vishthe silly little changes15:00
ScottKAlso, at least for Ubuntu the new theme landed before the U/I freeze.15:00
=== pgraner-afk is now known as pgraner
godbykScottK: It wasn't stable at that point. They rearranged the window control buttons after the freeze, still, i think.15:01
godbykWe had to retake a bunch of screenshots and patch a few.15:01
ScottKThere were certainly post freeze changes, but the new theme with the buttons on the left landed ~a day or so before the freeze.15:02
ScottKMost other flavors had to land the new branding post-freeze because it wasn't ready.15:02
godbykThat's true.15:03
godbykEither way, it certainly makes writing documentation difficult. :)15:03
vishgodbyk: UIFe mainly concern the docs team approval, and since they dont have any screenshots it didnt matter and got approved.. sucks for the non-official teams though15:04
godbykvish: That's true.15:04
ScottKvish: Kubuntu was one of the ones that didn't make it and they are certainly official.15:05
vishScottK: true , but i meant for the button switches :)15:05
humphreybcvish: yeah, well I'm going to kindly ask that they consider UMP as well in the future15:11
humphreybcconsidering we actually have screenshots and the docs team don't :)15:11
popeynow now children15:14
* popey can say that given he's the old fart round here :)15:14
godbykpopey: are you also an old fart in this channel? or just #ubuntu-manual?15:14
popeyoh, everywhere :)15:14
godbykah, good to know! :)15:14
humphreybcpopey: I *did* add a smiley face at the end of my docs team jab, so that makes everything alright. Right? Right?15:16
ScottKpopey: As long as I'm here, you aren't the old fart in the room.15:20
humphreybcpopey is overcome by joy as he realizes he is not the oldest in the room15:24
godbykDon't feel bad, though, popey, we still think you're old.  (... says the third[?] eldest)15:25
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== JFo is now known as JFo-afk
=== JFo-afk is now known as JFo
humphreybcholey moley we have a lot to get through20:59
* humphreybc is le tired20:59
dakerhumphreybc, just at time20:59
nisshhlets go then20:59
nisshhno time to waste20:59
humphreybcwho's here?21:00
nisshhme, godbyk21:00
* godbyk waves21:00
humphreybcnisshh, isn't it like really early in aussie?21:00
nisshhyes, 4am21:00
humphreybchave we got any translators here? any Ilyas?21:00
nisshhshe is in the channel21:00
MootBotMeeting started at 15:00. The chair is humphreybc.21:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:00
humphreybcgreat, fairly good turnout then :)21:00
humphreybcokay, agenda is here21:01
semioticroboticthat's quite an agenda21:01
nisshhno kidding!21:01
humphreybcwe can use this for our scribbling notes for today21:01
MootBotLINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-201021:01
dutchiei'd like it on record that i am of the opinion has lost his marbles21:01
dutchiethat humphreybc*21:02
humphreybcyeah, so what we'll do is just run over each thing briefly, get a general idea and then basically continue further talk in the list/next week and stuff21:02
nisshhdutchie: why is that?21:02
thorwildutchie: he had marbles?21:02
Red_HamsterXI think he's perfectly sane. Just over-ambitious.21:02
humphreybcokay, someone got the project philosophy around? thorwil, have you got that link?21:02
dutchiethorwil: well, yeah21:02
dutchieok, i'll stop being disruptive now21:02
humphreybc[TOPIC] Ubuntu Manual Philosophy21:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu Manual Philosophy21:02
MootBotLINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq21:03
* semioticrobotic thinks humphreybc needs a GavelBot21:03
dutchieno, not *another* bot21:03
humphreybcThorsten, Kevin and I worked on these a few days ago21:03
humphreybcthey're basically our "principles" for the team. They're not goals, they are independent of situation, and should reflect our team whenever/wherever21:04
humphreybcthey're pretty rough at the moment but those who haven't already had a look should bookmark it and make sure you do21:04
thorwil"8. Success of our users is the ultimate goal" should be first!?21:04
humphreybc(all of this stuff will be emailed to the main list after the meeting for further discussion)21:04
humphreybcthorwil: yah, you're probably right :D21:04
nisshhhumphreybc: the docs team said in a blog post that we were a direct "competitor"21:05
humphreybcnisshh: yeah I read that21:05
Red_HamsterXThey sent e-mail to the list to that effect, too, didn't they?21:05
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: when was that?21:05
dutchiehumphreybc: rectify this at uds, please21:05
Red_HamsterXA while ago. Something about how we should be supporting the online docs. And then one of us responded by arguing that we're catering towards different audiences.21:06
nisshhwe need to stay on topic anyway!21:06
humphreybcdutchie: sure. For anyone who doesn't know, there's this session here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-documentation-teams-collaboration21:06
Red_HamsterXI'll find the thread after this meeting.21:06
humphreybcyou guys chat about the philosophy for one sec, i just need to upload some images to flickr21:06
humphreybc(to show you)21:06
humphreybc(thorsten, godbyk, that's your cue)21:06
IlyaHaykinsonI think that the research aspect should be towards the top of our principles21:07
IlyaHaykinsonit's one thing to just write stuff that _we_ -- as experts -- think is important21:07
* humphreybc would have done this earlier but he literally just woke up21:07
IlyaHaykinsonand it's a whole other thing -- and something a lot more useful -- to back this up with info21:07
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: yes, I completely agree. That's a very strong aspect of our team that should be reflected in our values21:08
nisshhIlyaHaykinson: i agree, without research there is no solid data21:08
humphreybcIn my opinion not enough user research is conducted in the Ubuntu community, and we should lead the charge in that area (like we do in a tonne of other areas)21:08
Red_HamsterXMaybe we could take that a step further and find a way to run frequent polls on the site, for users to vote on the importance of various things as we think of them.21:08
nisshhRed_HamsterX: a weekly poll?21:09
nisshhor monthly?21:09
thorwilhumphreybc: on the other hand, having research happen outside this project could lessen our load21:09
Red_HamsterXI'm thinking more like a bunch of polls, with everyone able to add them, perhaps via a bot in the channel.21:09
nisshhRed_HamsterX: we do need to keep it simple though, dont forget that21:10
thorwilwhat i mean is that we should not swallow everything we touch21:10
humphreybcthorwil: Yea, dreams are free. I emailed Belinda Lopez (Canonical's training manager) and she was very helpful, but said they just don't keep any data on frequently asked questions or support requests.21:10
nisshhsince we are asking these questions to new users21:10
synergeticMany sites I've seen would have, at the bottom of info pages "Did you find this useful? Y/N" - would perhaps having something like that on the online docs help here? Things found useful there might be useful here, too.21:10
humphreybcsynergetic: ;) agenda #3 you'll see something21:11
Red_HamsterXWell, yes, of course. I'm thinking something simple like "Firefox's plugin system" with choices about how intuitive users found it while learning.21:11
Red_HamsterXIf it scores low, it might be a good thing to cover,21:11
thorwilsynergetic: it's often that question that i do not find helpful as a user21:11
nisshhsynergetic: thats brilliant!21:11
Red_HamsterXIf it scores high, then we can probably just put a hyperlink into the document.21:11
Red_HamsterXOoh. Context-sensitive feedback. That would definitely be a good way to collect data.21:12
Red_HamsterX+1 @ synergetic.21:12
humphreybcshould we talk about this more in the "Research and surveys" topic a bit later on?21:12
* Red_HamsterX quiets.21:12
IlyaHaykinsonyes, later is better21:12
nisshhwhat if we go with both ideas?21:12
humphreybcGood ideas Red_HamsterX, jot some stuff down on the pad21:13
humphreybcwe'll have to email the ML all this info for further discussion21:13
humphreybcokay, so, moving on (otherwise we will be here for ages):21:13
humphreybc[TOPIC] Improving translation workflow21:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Improving translation workflow21:13
dutchieoh dear21:13
dutchiei'm going to have to look away from c4's alternative election night21:13
humphreybcSo there's a thread in the ML where I asked translators for feedback21:13
ubuntujenkinsare there any translators here?21:14
humphreybcI was hoping that we'd have a couple of translators here to provide feedback21:14
humphreybcso basically, one thing I found from the list was that the translators want to be able to see their works faster21:14
ChrisWoollardThat would be good21:15
ubuntujenkinsI would agree with humphreybc21:15
dutchieright, adverts21:15
humphreybcthis would mean updating the translations more regularly. daker, dutchie. Can we script the stuff for the manual and for the website so it gets updated at a set time each day?21:15
dutchiei can concentrate21:15
dutchiehumphreybc: probably21:15
humphreybcThen we could tell translators to check the site at like, midday UTC and they can see their new shit21:15
dakerhumphreybc, we can21:15
humphreybcokay, I think we should do that21:15
nisshhgood plan21:15
dutchiein fact, if the merging didn't generate loads of conflicts, it would be easy21:15
godbykdutchie: what conflicts do you see?21:16
humphreybcThat would just be something we can do straight away to alleviate some of the issue. But we really want to be thinking about how we can fix it long term21:16
godbykdutchie: I always just download the tarball from launchpad and overwrite the existing po files with those from launchpad.21:16
dutchiegodbyk: mainly po4a and lp fighting over po file contents21:16
dutchiegodbyk: i'm not sure if you can auto-request a translation export21:17
dutchieand make that po file formats21:17
godbykI see.  I've been manually requesting the exports.21:17
dutchiegodbyk: that would be a massive pain21:17
dutchieit would be possible to screen scrape the lp screen, but that is quite a hack21:18
humphreybcCan we talk with the launchpad guys to work out something?21:18
humphreybcI'm chatting with henninge next week at UDS21:18
humphreybclemme find the blueprint21:18
humphreybcif you want to know anything, or have a feature request for LP, add it to this whiteboard and I'll bring it up with the devs21:19
humphreybcit's regarding communication but we'll just bundle everything into one21:19
dutchieshall i add it21:19
humphreybcdutchie: yup21:20
humphreybcgo for it21:20
humphreybcso in the future we'd like to simplify how things are translated21:20
humphreybca lot of people have been having difficulty with the latex commands21:20
humphreybcI'm not entirely sure how to get around that. Improve po4a to make it ignore latex stuff more effectively?21:20
ChrisWoollardRe the latex stuff21:21
humphreybcChrisWoollard: Do you think the problem could just be overcome with better translator education about latex commands? ie, a style guide etc21:21
ChrisWoollardThe other day someone mentioned that there was a pdf that kevin created. It had loads in it21:21
raffaeleciao, sono uno di coloro che traducono Ubuntu manual in italiano, potrei ascoltare senza intervenire?21:21
raffaelehello, I'm one of those who translate Ubuntu manual in Italian, I could listen without intervention?21:21
ChrisWoollardPutting that in an accessible place would be good21:21
dutchieraffaele: of course21:22
humphreybcChrisWoollard: yeah, that was our style guide from a while ago. godbyk is going to re-do it and make it better very soon, aren't ya godbyk?21:22
ChrisWoollardThe style guide was what it was21:22
godbykraffaele: Sure.  Feel free to jump in if you have anything to say, too.21:22
humphreybcraffaele: yes, please!21:22
dutchiethe style guide needs more publicising21:22
godbykhumphreybc: well, we're going to expand the style guide to encompass more than just the latex commands.21:22
godbykdutchie: I agree.21:22
thorwili guess it's either  making translators understand latex macros well enough, or creating a clever editor21:23
ChrisWoollardThat would be great21:23
semioticroboticcan we link to the style guide on the Web site?21:23
dutchiei'll /topic it in #ubuntu-manual21:23
semioticroboticthat's an important document21:23
* godbyk really wishes we could add a link to the top of the ubuntu-manual translations page that points to the style guide.21:23
IlyaHaykinsoni think the style guide should be online, on the wiki perhaps?21:23
humphreybcthanks dutchie21:23
IlyaHaykinsonwhere the existing style guide is/was?21:23
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: problem with the wiki is that it can't demonstrate what LaTeX commands look like21:23
humphreybchence why godbyk did it in a PDF21:23
humphreybcbut we should embed it on our website in some reader21:23
ChrisWoollard or on the getting involved page21:24
nisshhgoogle docs?21:24
ChrisWoollardThat page is very laking21:24
humphreybcyeah. Basically, it needs to be widely publicized21:24
dutchiewhat's the url for the guide?21:24
raffaeleehm, i think that the document writed in latex after some translations isn't so complicated21:24
humphreybcdutchie: the Getting Involved page for Translators is fairly minimalist :P21:24
MootBotLINK received:  http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf21:24
humphreybcso, godbyk, could you work on improving the style guide somewhat (if it needs it) and then daker, could you please look into the google PDF viewer to embed it on the website?21:25
ChrisWoollardIt only has half the info21:25
godbykwe could link to the pdf from http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/translators21:25
humphreybcWe need to rewrite a lot of the instructions on the website anyway - it's a bit complicated. Also, now that Ground Control is packaged in Lucid and working, we can use that and nisshh has been working on a bzr setup script.21:26
ChrisWoollardThat is good21:26
ChrisWoollardpossibly on editors also21:26
humphreybcgodbyk, yea, we should also have it on the authors/editors pages too21:26
humphreybccoz they need to adhere to style21:26
semioticroboticyes please21:26
humphreybcdaker, are you happy with that?21:27
ChrisWoollardYou also need to test TexLive 2009 from the package tree aand get the missing bits in the package tree21:27
nisshhhumphreybc: we need to pick up the pace...21:27
humphreybcChrisWoollard: so it's easier to install for Joe Bloggs? I agree21:27
humphreybcnisshh: we *always* need to pick up the pace :P21:27
humphreybcChrisWoollard: I think that's something ubuntujenkins has been working on21:28
nisshhmeh, well put!21:28
humphreybcor at least getting stuff in a PPA for easier installation21:28
godbykChrisWoollard: ubuntujenkins has been working on that.21:28
* ubuntujenkins looks up from uni work21:28
humphreybcubuntujenkins: what's the progress on your TexLive 2009 PPA thing?21:28
ChrisWoollardAnother good point21:28
* nisshh has also been working on making it easier for newbies to start out21:28
ubuntujenkinshumphreybc: not bad a strange problem today i am doing it as quickly as i can. Lots of uni work at the moment21:29
humphreybcSo yeah, key thing to remember is that as we get bigger, we're going to get more complicated and we want to avoid that21:29
humphreybcubuntujenkins: that's all good21:29
humphreybcnext topic!21:29
Red_HamsterXGood foundations -> smooth growth?21:29
ChrisWoollardI think the website iis one of the reasons it is so hard to learn about becoming an editior21:29
humphreybc[TOPIC] HTML5 website21:29
MootBotNew Topic:  HTML5 website21:29
godbykChrisWoollard: If you have suggestions for improving that area, could add them to the pad: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-201021:30
=== daker_ is now known as daker
humphreybcokaly dokaly, take a look at these21:30
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/21:30
humphreybcThis is our ace up our sleeve, if you will21:30
dutchiei will have more time in a month or 2 to assist with such a thin21:30
dutchiei certainly will be interested21:30
humphreybcIt's basically a web based, interactive support website21:31
humphreybcusing our content from the manual21:31
nisshhim interested too21:31
thorwilhumphreybc: why html5?21:31
humphreybcit'll have some really neat feedback features, like the widget on the left that appears when your mouse hovers over a paragraph21:31
ChrisWoollardIt looks pretty21:31
semioticroboticthe design is refreshing, but I worry about reaction from the docs team21:31
c7pi like the idea21:31
dutchiethorwil: because it's AWESOME21:31
humphreybcthorwil: because that gives us the most options for videos and things?21:31
nisshhhumphreybc: would the web version be the same, or more comprehensive than the pdf?21:31
semioticrobotichopefully this is part of the collaborative discussions at UDS next week21:32
humphreybcnisshh: more comprehensive in the long run21:32
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: yeah it will be21:32
ChrisWoollardWhat is the browser support of HTML5 like?21:32
humphreybcthe docs team will probably freak21:32
Red_HamsterXDock some sort of chat applet into the mockup, with feed directed at an IRC channel or something.21:32
semioticrobotichumphreybc: because this is an amazing overhaul that's very much needed21:32
dutchieChrisWoollard: firefox/chrome are fine21:32
Red_HamsterXSo we can find out, from people who are actually seeking help, how to better improve the layout.21:32
semioticroboticsafari is fine21:32
dutchieChrisWoollard: that other browser is no good until version 921:32
nisshhdocs team: AAAAHAHHHAHHA! humphreybc has gone insane!!!!!21:32
ubuntujenkinsdutchie: not sure about firefox21:32
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: Hmm. Interesting idea. Perhaps instead of having it on each page, we could actually have a live help area with an embedded IRC thing for #ubuntu or #ubuntu-manual21:32
ChrisWoollardI also think Opera is ok21:32
dutchieubuntujenkins: 3.6 i'm pretty sure does21:33
thorwili was under the impression that html5 is still in flux, and that you have support feature by feature?21:33
* godbyk thinks we'll have to get some help for poor daker! :)21:33
Red_HamsterXI'm thinking it'd be awesome to actually interact with users as a live index.21:33
ChrisWoollardWould that be the browser with 59%..... 58%... 57%.... share21:33
Red_HamsterXIf we notice a lot of people looking ofr a specific article, we know what to promote.21:33
dakergodbyk, +121:33
Red_HamsterXEmbeddable IRC things are common. =P21:33
ubuntujenkinsdutchie: may be there is a list here http://www.youtube.com/html5?gl=GB&hl=en-GB21:33
humphreybcSo, you'll notice it's based on the ubuntu.com new website design. This is basically just the mockups of what I'd *like* it to be in the long run - if we could get it at an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be cool. But for now, it'll be at our own domain name.21:33
dakerwe need more developers21:33
synergetichumphreybc: #ubuntu is a bit manic, though. i went there for help once and was quite intimidated  by the pace of conversation21:34
Red_HamsterXI'll be getting started on the Quickshot server rebuild tonight.21:34
humphreybcsynergetic: yeah, i agree21:34
nisshhdaker: devs for what exactly?21:34
humphreybcWe could definitely have an area on the site for technical support _with the site itself_ which has a chat thing for #ubuntu-manual21:34
humphreybcnisshh: web developers21:34
godbyknisshh: To help with web dev work.21:34
IlyaHaykinsoni think the key is not HTML_5_, but _HTML_.21:34
humphreybcwe need a mother sh*tload of web developers21:34
IlyaHaykinsonas opposed to PDF21:34
ubuntujenkinsI will start the wuickshot gui asap21:35
ubuntujenkinsI think daker could use a hand with the website21:35
Red_HamsterXNo, humphreybc, we don't. We just need a few good ones.21:35
humphreybcnow, a few snags like latex > html conversion could be tricky21:35
* nisshh sticks his hand up (wants to be a web dev!)21:35
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: well, yeah, that too :P21:35
humphreybcSo basically, these are the mockups that I did a few days ago. I will start a new ML email with them attached to the whole team for feedback. Ideas on implementation are appreciated.21:35
humphreybcI'll be talking with the other doc teams at UDS about collaboration21:36
humphreybcand I'm sure guys like the learning project will be keen to help with this stuff21:36
thorwilwouldn't be the first thing be to clear up how we get from latex to html?21:36
nisshhthorwil: manual conversion line-by-line probably!21:37
IlyaHaykinsoni'm pretty sure most of our content will convert easily.21:37
humphreybcAlso, it's worth noting that something like this is not high on the docs team agenda. Someone asked them the other day if they were going to make help.ubuntu.com available in different languages, and they explicitly said no. We will have it in different langauges.21:37
humphreybcthorwil: pretty much :)21:37
IlyaHaykinsonbecause we've been reasonably good about not using too much custom latex stuff in the chapter files21:37
dutchieas long as we keep nice semantic markup, we'll be fine imo21:37
humphreybcIt's also very important to realize that the PDF will actually get smaller for the next few releases21:37
dakerthorwil, http://www.davidpace.com/all-else/other-items/latex-to-html.htm21:37
thorwilwell rumor had godbyk saw problems there21:38
godbykThere are plenty of ways to convert from latex to html, some better than others.21:38
humphreybcstuff like the command line and that will only be available on the website - it's "Getting Started with Ubuntu" and therefore should basically just cover how to get started - for learning more, we'd point you to the "Online Learning Center" portion of our site.21:38
godbykMost of them won't read our files and convert them as-is due to unicocde characters and whatnot.21:38
IlyaHaykinsoni think we just convert the chapters, not treating it as latex but instead as just text files with some custom markup21:38
humphreybcThe "Online Learning Center" would also have featured articles from a number of people who want to help out, but perhaps their material is slightly too advanced or doesn't meet our same style to fit into the PDF.21:38
IlyaHaykinsonand write a custom converter. will be far easier.21:38
godbykBut I can write a script to handle all the cases of latex code we have at the moment.21:38
thorwilcoll then21:39
thorwilcool, even21:39
nisshhhumphreybc:  you mean like specific topic HOWTO's or something?21:39
godbykWe'll want to look into using a single source document (say, xml, perhaps?) in the future that we can transform to both great latex and great html.21:39
dutchieyay xml21:39
humphreybcThe website will be in two parts, pretty much: The Ubuntu support area, which is for direct issues with Ubuntu itself/learning how to do things. Think chapters 1 - 5 in the manual. Then there will be a Learning Center which will be for people who don't have problems, but just want to learn more. Think chapter 6 - 9.21:39
dutchiethat'll be a pain to edit21:39
nisshhxml = yuck!21:40
godbykdutchie: yeah, we've been discussing having an online WYSIWYG editor that hides all the markup.21:40
humphreybcnisshh: pretty much. Featured articles like this one by Danny Piccirillo: http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2010/04/ubuntu-1004-post-install-guide-what-to.html21:40
thorwilgodbyk: for that, xml should have very clear benefits over staying with latex21:40
Red_HamsterXAbiword and, I believe, OpenOffice, can export into DocBook pretty easily. We could look into XSLTs against that again.21:40
humphreybcSo Danny could submit his nice article to our site, we'd stick it on there and feature it on the homepage of the Learning Center for a while21:40
jcisionot a pain, xml > xhtml we do xhtml then21:40
synergeticgodbyk: what about D.I.T.A.?21:40
godbykthorwil: the primary benefit would be that is parsable, where latex isn't really.21:41
godbyksynergetic: I'll have a look at it.21:41
IlyaHaykinsonI'm with godbyk on having a single standardized storage format, and render it as HTML or LaTeX21:41
humphreybcDanny's article doesn't match with our style for the PDF, and it's a bit too detailed for the Getting Started book - but it will fit perfectly on the site21:41
nisshhxml is just overcomplicated html21:41
dutchieit may be easier to have the central data as html21:41
humphreybcOne key thing we want the website to do is provide a way to give feedback on things, and suggest edits. We want it to be a moderated wiki, if you will.21:41
dutchiethere are already loads of editors and parsers for it21:42
IlyaHaykinsonno, i disagree. i think we need to use some semantic markup, which does not include _any_ graphical information.21:42
humphreybcBut the key is minimalism. Nothing should distract from the content itself.21:42
nisshhhumphreybc: would it be worth having a server manual on the website eventually too?21:42
godbykdutchie: true, but then we lose a lot of the great typographic of latex.21:42
thorwil+1 for semantic markup21:42
humphreybcnisshh: we could look at that, yeah21:42
IlyaHaykinsonat any rate, this storage format discussion is orthogonal to the general idea of building the site.21:42
IlyaHaykinsonplus we're 42 minutes into the meeting and on item 3 of 13 on the agenda21:43
godbykIlyaHaykinson: true. :)21:43
nisshhIlyaHaykinson: yes it is, we should discuss it later21:43
IlyaHaykinsonso, can we agree that the website is a good idea and we like it?21:43
IlyaHaykinsonand that we should pursue it further?21:43
IlyaHaykinson+1 on that from me.21:43
godbykIf anyone has comments on the format, etc., feel free to add them to the meeting notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-201021:43
humphreybcOh, btw, we should have this done for Maverick21:43
nisshh+1 from me too21:43
humphreybcIt looks like a tonne of work but I reckon we can pull it off ;)21:43
humphreybcMoving on!21:43
humphreybc[TOPIC] Quickstart booklets21:43
MootBotNew Topic:  Quickstart booklets21:43
humphreybcNow you guys probably know about this21:44
nisshhhere goes humphreybc with his really ambitious goals again!21:44
humphreybcBasically it's just creating really pretty, small and concise booklets for LoCo teams and the like to hand out and market Ubuntu21:44
humphreybcWhile there are quite a few similar things on Spread Ubuntu, ours is going to be better21:44
nisshhhow would it be any different?21:44
humphreybcWe could start off with just some easy ones, like installation guide, or perhaps a "what is Ubuntu" type booklet.21:45
ChrisWoollardAre you thinking something like an oreilly pocket guiide?21:45
humphreybcThen we could branch out into task-related booklets, for example, "Transferring photos from your camera" etc21:45
nisshhwe dont want another replica of the ubuntu pocket guide21:45
dutchiewe definitely need to find something to do that doesn't take us dangerously close to another ubuntu project ;)21:45
humphreybcBasically, it's the text from the manual in a different format21:45
ChrisWoollardall or selected bits?21:45
humphreybcChrisWoollard: well, we'd have a larger range, they'd be a lot prettier, more consistent and very printer friendly for distribution with LoCo teams.21:45
humphreybcselected bits21:46
humphreybcwe're talking only 3 or 4 pages long, maybe two or three fold.21:46
nisshhmeh, bit too much like "collectibles" if you ask me21:46
persiaIf you're concerned about collision, that's usually a good indication that it's a good idea to work *with* another team to create a shared, better, result.21:46
ChrisWoollardAlmost like a cheat sheet  kind of thing21:46
semioticroboticis this the time t talk dimensions?  I'm just trying to get a sense of how these booklets will look21:46
humphreybcpersia: We'd love to work with the docs team21:47
humphreybcpersia: Feel free to try and tell them that!21:47
IlyaHaykinsoni would make the quickstart booklet a "nice to have" rather than a key goal of the maverick sprint. mainly we're being evaluated on our ability to deliver great manuals version after version.21:47
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: correct21:47
humphreybcpriorities are important21:47
IlyaHaykinsonperhaps one or two people can make the quickstart their project, and go off and plan it out, and come to the team with a ready-made plan?21:47
nisshhi agree with ilya on this one21:47
humphreybcthe quickstart booklets aren't particularly high on the agenda21:47
synergeticpersia: +121:48
persiahumphreybc: I've seen the mail.  I didn't want to reopen that.  the Spead Ubuntu thing might not be the same. :)21:48
nisshhnot everything needs to ready for maverick21:48
humphreybcI'll be working on the design of the booklet with thorwil and anyone else who is interested, then Kevin will work on the LaTeX stuff to create them.21:48
humphreybcThe key thing is that we're reusing our own content in all of these formats21:48
humphreybcwhich means we don't have to write more stuff21:48
humphreybcnisshh: true, but it's always good to reach for the stars and at least you'll end up on the moon21:49
thorwilhumphreybc: currently i see no space on my agenda for a booklet21:49
humphreybcthorwil: Don't worry, I'll be doing most of the design21:49
IlyaHaykinsonwell, the quickstart booklet will necessarily need totally different content.21:49
thorwilhumphreybc: the parts of that sentence don't match21:49
IlyaHaykinsoni don't think anything we have now is directly usable.21:49
humphreybcthorwil: I mean, I'll do the design, then ask you to have a look for feedback21:49
nisshhme neither21:49
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: sure, it might need some tweaking to make it contextual enough to fit into such a small booklet21:50
humphreybcbut, we'll see how we go21:50
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: right21:50
humphreybcI'll talk with the LoCo council at UDS to see if they'd actually be interested in using something like this21:50
humphreybcchrist we have ages to go!21:50
humphreybc[TOPIC] Feedback from Lucid release21:51
MootBotNew Topic:  Feedback from Lucid release21:51
nisshhwhat kind of feedback did we get?21:51
humphreybcHow do we think it went? What areas can we improve the most in?21:51
humphreybcnisshh: Not a heap, to be honest. We got mainly positive comments on the blog articles about the release21:52
nisshhhumphreybc: consistency!21:52
humphreybcI was hoping to see more reviews on Planet Ubuntu21:52
IlyaHaykinsoni think ppl are having trouble finding the manual21:52
nisshhyea, didnt happen unfortunantly21:52
ChrisWoollardMaybe somebody should have told slashdot21:52
IlyaHaykinsonthe top referrers are expert user blogs21:52
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: Yeah21:52
humphreybclemme find something21:53
nisshhIlyaHaykinson: well, its not official21:53
nisshhlike on the ubuntu website official21:53
humphreybcI think Jono, Mark etc are very interested in whether we can keep up the momentum and continue releasing quality products21:53
humphreybca lot of projects die after their first release21:53
IlyaHaykinsonyes, i always thought that the big test for us is not the first version, but the second21:54
humphreybcOf course, we won't. We won't just continue what we're doing, we'll make it better.21:54
thorwiland then it will be the 3rd21:54
semioticroboticthe sophomore release is any group's achilles heel21:54
humphreybcAnyway, IlyaHaykinson, there are some ideas for better integration with Ubuntu to raise our profile a bit, and get more targeted readers21:54
nisshhhumphreybc: expand our horizons :)21:54
ChrisWoollardWhat is a sophomore release?21:54
nisshha what?21:55
synergeticChrisWoollard: 2nd21:55
nisshhoh, hehe21:55
IlyaHaykinsonnod. i'm not too concerned for now. i am sure that as we continue to deliver, we'll have a lot more opportunities open up to integrate closer.21:55
humphreybcAs a side note, anyone who has more ideas on ways to improve our visibility for our *target audience* - add them to that blueprint whiteboard or email me21:55
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: pretty much. Jono and Mark are very excited to see what we have lined up for this cycle21:55
humphreybcAnd if we prove ourselves for Maverick, I see no reason why we shouldn't become more tightly integrated with Ubuntu itself21:56
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: totally agreed.21:56
humphreybcWhat about Lucid feedback from a team point of view? Communication, meetings, organization, structure?21:56
ubuntujenkinsmy parents like the manual21:57
IlyaHaykinsoni think we had issues with writers & editors in that we assigned things to people who didn't prove they could deliver.21:57
nisshhubuntujenkins: so do mine but they then said: "so whats it for then?"21:57
thorwilhumphreybc: excellent communication, except for meetings that are too long ;)21:57
ubuntujenkinswe need more people to hang out in irc to help some times we are all asleep and there is no one to help21:57
IlyaHaykinsonthis resulted in long delays as we waited for them to surface, and then a scramble to reassign the chapters.21:57
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: Right. Any ideas how we could get quality authors/editors with enough time?21:58
ChrisWoollardIs there a list of people anywhere on the website detailing who is responsible for what?21:58
ubuntujenkinsnisshh: my parents use ubuntu21:58
semioticrobotic+1 IlyaHaykinson21:58
IlyaHaykinsoni recommend that in the future, we only assign non-critical parts to newbies, until they can show their dedication.21:58
humphreybcChrisWoollard: check the Contributors page on ubuntu-manual.org21:58
IlyaHaykinsoni.e. make some commits.21:58
Red_HamsterXWhich channels, ubuntujenkins?21:58
nisshhdont forget we dud start this project half way through through the last cycle21:58
Red_HamsterXI like answering random questions.21:58
semioticrobotichaving come to the project a bit late, I struggled to understand precisely who was writing what, and who was active21:58
ubuntujenkinsRed_HamsterX: #ubuntu-manual21:58
ChrisWoollardFair point. forgot about that21:58
humphreybcYes, the writing part of last cycle was a bit of a mess21:58
nisshhubuntujenkins: yea, mine arent even computer literate...21:58
humphreybcHopefully we should be a bit better off this cycle considering we actually have a team in place now - whereas last cycle we had to build up our team WHILE trying to get a release out.21:59
humphreybcAlthough I am certainly not happy with our infrastructure as it is, it can be a lot better, a lot easier21:59
godbykI'm sure we'll have some turnover in authors/editors/translators/etc., too.21:59
nisshhyea, we have laid the groundwork21:59
humphreybcI think the easier we make it for people to help, the more people will be interested in helping21:59
nisshhthis cycle will certainly be interesting22:00
c7phumphreybc: +122:00
humphreybcOne of the things I am interested in would be having some sort of web based editor22:00
nisshhfor latex?22:00
humphreybcthat's live, collaborative, stuff is stored on the web instead of using bzr so we don't have crazy merges22:00
humphreybcnisshh: yes, the backend would be latex, but the frontend would be rich text22:00
ChrisWoollardThat sound tricky22:00
humphreybcbasically like etherpad, but if you highlighted something and hit bold, the backend would magically add in \textbf{text} around what you've highlighted22:01
humphreybcvery tricky, yes22:01
dakergreat idea humphreybc22:01
humphreybcBut it would be an incredibly useful tool22:01
Red_HamsterXWhat about a variant of a wiki engine, customized to output generic XML instead of XHTML?22:01
nisshhit would also crap out the server if you did real-time html to latex22:01
semioticrobotichumphreybc: finding the right tools for that might be difficult; etherpad is compeltely open to anyone, while Google Docs on our domain is restricted to those with adminitrator-approved accounts22:01
IlyaHaykinsoni don't think we need realtime editing.22:01
humphreybcEtherpad would be nice to fiddle with but I think it would be really messy to hack it to the way we want22:02
IlyaHaykinsonmost of our editing and writing is spread over a large manual22:02
dakerIlyaHaykinson, +122:02
godbykIlyaHaykinson: +122:02
nisshhhumphreybc: also dont forget that for every app we create for the project, thats an extra app we have to constantly maintain22:02
humphreybcnisshh: that's a good point22:02
humphreybcI'm hoping that as we create apps, more people will use them from other projects and help us maintain them22:02
ChrisWoollardIs that then distracting from the main manual22:02
IlyaHaykinsonplus, well, etherpad always exists if we need to use it on a one-off basis.22:02
dakernisshh, that's why iam here22:02
humphreybcChrisWoollard: well, it's important to remember we don't just make manuals22:03
thorwilhumphreybc: such a tool would be awesome, but would need several dedicated developers and should happen outside22:03
nisshhdaker: yep22:03
IlyaHaykinsoni think developing the website is going to be a big enough project.22:03
IlyaHaykinsonno need to complicate things with a really difficult editor.22:03
humphreybcso some of the stuff we write for the website feedback widget could be used in our thingy22:03
ChrisWoollardhumphreybc: i don't disagree with that22:03
humphreybcI'm not saying we need this editor asap22:03
nisshhwhat a nightmare that would be!22:03
humphreybcit's not even on the agenda22:03
=== Andre_Gondim is now known as Andre_Gondim-afk
humphreybcit's just an idea i have that we should think about22:03
semioticrobotican easier way to edit files would certainly lower barriers to entry22:04
ChrisWoollardSpeaking of the agenda. Where are we?22:04
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: totally, and that's one of our principles22:04
humphreybcChrisWoollard: feedback from lucid22:04
nisshhgedit is easy enough i think22:04
Red_HamsterXSimple web-based zvn engine?22:04
nisshhits latex thats confusing people22:04
Red_HamsterXAs a starting point.22:04
humphreybcso, I reckon we should work hard on translations (that's a strong point for us) and make it easier for translators22:04
semioticroboticnisshh: Gedit is easy, yes -- it's everything else (launchpad, bzr, etc.)22:04
humphreybcAnd I have no idea how we're going to handle the translations for *two* manuals this cycle.22:05
nisshhsemioticrobotic: yea22:05
humphreybcFor Lucid 2nd edition, I would rather we take stuff OUT than add more content22:05
humphreybcotherwise translations are going to never happen22:06
nisshhhumphreybc: why dont we just allow the translator in AFTER we have done ALL major edits22:06
semioticrobotichumphreybc: we can comment out some stuff for e2, but we did that during the superedit and made some pretty hearty cuts22:06
Red_HamsterXOr even our own version-management thing, kinda similar to what we're doing for the next Quickshot iteration: users submit patches and someone has to approve them, applying LaTeX fixes at the same time.22:06
nisshhso after writing freeze22:06
Red_HamsterXAll in a web interface.22:06
godbykSome recent feedback: http://shanefagan.com/2010/05/04/ubuntu-manual-review/ and http://www.mdke.org/?p=10222:06
ChrisWoollardHow long before we get the first batch of translations for e1 out?22:06
humphreybcunfortunately, we just don't have enough time in a 6 month cycle to have 200 pages of content in enough languages22:06
humphreybcSo I think we'll have to do rolling releases of translations22:07
synergeticnisshh: have people tried LyX for the ubuntu manual? how well does that work with any custom commands?22:07
humphreybcas they're finished, they get released22:07
c7pit took about 1 month and a week for as to translate the manual and review it22:07
humphreybcThere's the risk that a language won't be finished for, say, 10.04 until 10.10 is out, which would be pointless22:07
nisshhsynergetic: whats LyX?22:07
humphreybcbecause by the time the language is done, the content will be obsolete22:07
synergeticnisshh: a GUI LaTeX editor22:07
dutchiesynergetic: lyx is evil22:07
godbyksynergetic: you have to set up a special file to get lyx to work with our stuff -- and I'm not sure if we can get it to do everything we need in a GUI/WYSIWYM way.22:07
humphreybcc7p: really, that short amount of time? you guys must have worked hard!22:08
raffaeleI think thatI think that we should not add too much material because the translations already lagging behind will be charged more.22:08
nisshhsynergetic: yea, i remember seeing a few listed in software center22:08
IlyaHaykinsonok, once again, let's shelve format discussions for now.22:08
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: +122:08
dutchieIlyaHaykinson: we'll have to takle them at some point22:08
IlyaHaykinsonyes; can be discussed offline22:08
synergeticdutchie: i completely agree with you - but I do all my coursework in LaTeX and a large number of my fellow students prefer LyX to any other editor. These fellow students tend to be ones needing to use LaTeX but afraid of non-GUI interfaces22:08
c7phumphreybc: yeah :) but it worth it22:08
humphreybc[TOPIC] Research!22:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Research!22:08
nisshhwow, ok i think its next topic time!22:09
humphreybcWe need to figure out what we actually need to have in our manual22:09
humphreybcwhat the most important parts are, what parts no one ever needs22:09
nisshhhumphreybc: bit late isnt it?22:09
IlyaHaykinsonok, so here's what i think on this22:09
nisshhfor lucid anyway22:09
IlyaHaykinsona) we need qualitative research22:09
IlyaHaykinsonmeaning interviews with users22:09
humphreybcnisshh: for lucid, yeah22:09
IlyaHaykinsontalking with people, observing them using it22:10
IlyaHaykinsonusability studies, focus groups etc.22:10
IlyaHaykinsonin the technical writing field these are called "audience analysis" and "task analysis" apparently22:10
godbykIlyaHaykinson: diary studies could be useful, too22:10
IlyaHaykinsongodbyk: yes22:10
humphreybcCan we work with the LoCo and community councils to devise a "Research day" or something, where teams hold events around the world and bring their parents/siblings/etc along to user test Ubuntu and our manual?22:10
IlyaHaykinsonwe need mostly professionals to run these22:11
IlyaHaykinsonand we need fairly few people22:11
nisshhhumphreybc: thats pretty large scale22:11
Red_HamsterXSuggestion: regular Google searches for blogs that reference the manual, to see what sorts of criticisms are being leveled against it.22:11
IlyaHaykinsonas long as they're screened correctly22:11
IlyaHaykinsonotherwise we end up leading the user, or asking loaded questions etc22:11
godbykRed_HamsterX: I have google alerts for that. it emails me each day with a list of sites mentioning our manual.22:11
IlyaHaykinsonso at any rate, i'm going to take the lead on research for now, and will report on some ideas in the next week22:12
nisshhIlyaHaykinson: i agree22:12
godbykIlyaHaykinson: sounds great!22:12
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: yep, good. nisshh, are you interested to help Ilya where he needs it?22:12
IlyaHaykinsonthe general outline is a) do qualitative research, b) do some quantitative (surveys) afterwards.22:12
nisshhcan do that22:12
humphreybcThat's great :)22:12
IlyaHaykinsonc) produce a persona or multiple personas22:12
IlyaHaykinsonand d) create a set of recommendations for our content22:13
ChrisWoollardIs it worth putting an article about it on Linuxtoday.com or something like that?22:13
nisshhIlyaHaykinson: shoot me an email somtime about how you do this and ill try and pick it up22:13
IlyaHaykinsonnisshh: nod, will do.22:13
IlyaHaykinsonin general, i estimate we will need 2 months to complete this.22:13
synergetichumphreybc: many have already done install days and would already know some key areas that should be focussed on. what about creating an ideastorm with topics?22:13
IlyaHaykinsonat the very least.22:13
IlyaHaykinsonwhich should be ok, because we won't have maverick taking shape until then anyways22:13
nisshheasy peasy!22:14
humphreybcsynergetic: Good idea. The problem is getting the word out to the right people about such a thing22:14
humphreybcI'm hoping the learning team can help us here22:14
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: that sounds like a plan to me22:14
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: i'll reach out to the learning team then22:14
nisshhhumphreybc: the learning team are always on UF22:14
synergetichumphreybc: word of mouth. ubuntu planet, jono, have people pass it to other people. there's no one place, really, aside from the ubuntu homepage22:14
humphreybcsynergetic: yep, I'm going to harp at Jono to give us some time on his blog22:15
nisshhhumphreybc: which will go through planet ubuntu22:16
humphreybcand i think I'll be an ubuntu member soon (yay!) so i'll be able to post on the planet22:16
humphreybcExpect Planet Ubuntu to be filled with UMP posts in a few weeks!22:16
nisshhaw cool22:16
humphreybc[TOPIC] Cleaning up instructions22:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Cleaning up instructions22:16
ScottKPlease don't over do it.22:16
humphreybcBasically, the stuff on our site at the moment is a bit complicated and daunting22:16
godbykScottK: Sick of us yet? ;-)22:17
humphreybcSo, I'll work on simplifying it somewhat. Unfortunately I have exams for Uni coming up next month, and I'll have to start studying for them as soon as I get back from Belgium22:17
ChrisWoollardComplicated. I thought it was just lacking.22:17
ScottKNot yet, although a number of things would be easier for the project as a whole if this weren't separate from ubuntu-doc.22:17
humphreybcWhich means I'll be MIA until the second half of June22:17
humphreybcScottK: once again, feel free to talk with them. Trust me, I've tried!22:18
humphreybcnow, this is where stuff gets freaky22:19
humphreybc[TOPIC] Crazy content management idea22:19
MootBotNew Topic:  Crazy content management idea22:19
c7pi think the "Become Author" on the site is very misleading22:20
godbykc7p: in what way?22:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg/4585064Q22:20
humphreybcbloody copy and paste22:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg22:20
nisshhc7p: it should be apply to become a trainee author or something22:20
humphreybcsecond link everyone22:20
ubuntujenkinsi don't like the work trainee make them sound like they are doing the tea and coffie22:21
nisshhhehe, i like the "big f off content pool"22:21
c7pgodbyk, nishh on that section you learn about only about latex compilation and nothing more. there it ends the page!22:21
nisshhc7p: what are you saying it should include?22:21
godbykc7p: ah, right.  yes, we need to add instructions for editing files, committing code, and of courser writing and whatnot.22:21
humphreybcSo this is something the learning team would like to do22:22
nisshhah ok!22:22
c7pgodbyk: exactly22:22
humphreybcAnd it's something we're working towards22:22
ChrisWoollardI think if you want to be an auther. you should prove yourself in other areas firts22:22
humphreybcgetting all of our content in one area, and selectively building material into different formats22:22
humphreybcfrom the same stuf22:22
humphreybcChrisWoollard: yeah, that would be nice. We should make "being an author" something that people want to aim for?22:23
Red_HamsterXI have to play for the docs team here: wouldn't it make sense to try to merge our content pool into theirs as much as possible?22:23
nisshhwhat? kind of like becoming a MOTU?22:23
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: yes, it would22:23
ChrisWoollardAlso not everybody is cut out for writing.22:23
humphreybcThis idea wouldn't work without their help, and the learning team22:23
nisshhRed_HamsterX: alot of the online docs a seriously outdated22:24
humphreybcand a heap of other teams22:24
semioticroboticRed_HamsterX: +!22:24
semioticroboticer, +1 even22:24
humphreybcOf course, the docs team would have to meet our quality standards :)22:24
semioticroboticwell, yes, outdated -- but our fresh crop of writers and editors would infuse a bit more life into them22:24
humphreybcNo tutorials on "how to illegally install M$ fonts" for example22:25
nisshhChrisWoollard: i learnt how to do it in two weeks! talk about a crash course in being an author!22:25
Red_HamsterXnisshh, yes, they are. But if their content were repurposed, as a knowedge base of information, it would greatly add to our legitimacy.22:25
Red_HamsterXThey hold and maintain the content and we publish it for the users.22:25
nisshhRed_HamsterX: true yea, i agree with that22:25
nisshhnext topic?22:26
Red_HamsterXActually, that may well be one of the things Ubuntu sorely needs: a centralized, structured knowledge base.22:26
semioticroboticthe docs team must also work on areas outside our target user base22:26
semioticrobotici.e., advanced stuff, too22:26
humphreybcRed_HamsterX: Exactly. At the moment, learning material is spread out all over the place22:27
humphreybcit's a real shit show22:27
semioticroboticyes, it definitely does22:27
Red_HamsterXOh, of course. But then our server manual, or some othe rproject, could harvest whatever they generate.22:27
semioticroboticso this meeting humphreybc has called is integral22:27
humphreybcWhat we're going to have to do is pitch the idea to the docs team, see how it goes. I don't hold high hopes for them wanting to help, to be completely honest.22:28
semioticroboticeventually, I see a division of labor that' something like: UMP does beginner-level documentation, Docs Team builds on that and does advanced stuff, and Learning project takes that stuff and spins it into booklets, leaflets, and training seminars22:28
* IlyaHaykinson is dropping off, will review irc logs later.22:28
Red_HamsterXI don't see them not saying "we accept patches".22:28
humphreybcAnd if they don't want to work with us, well, that's their problem. I'm sorry but we're here to try and make Ubuntu documentation rock.22:28
Red_HamsterXWhich is probably enough of an in.22:28
dutchiehumphreybc: you could always try being nice to the docs team ;)22:28
godbyksee ya, IlyaHaykinson22:28
semioticroboticbye IlyaHaykinson22:28
* nisshh has to go soon too, got college in an hour and a half22:28
humphreybcokay, we should move on22:29
humphreybc[TOPIC] Lucid translated releases22:29
MootBotNew Topic:  Lucid translated releases22:29
humphreybctranslated releases22:29
humphreybcthis is your area of the project :P22:29
godbykSo for the translated versions of the manual, I think the releases should work in a similar fashion to the original English version.22:30
godbykI think that once the translations have been completed and the screenshots have been taken, an editor should be appointed for each translation.22:30
raffaeleExcuse the interruption, but where I can see the logs after the debate?22:30
humphreybcraffaele: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com22:31
raffaeleok, thank you22:31
godbykThe editor will work with her translation team to ensure that everything is up to snuff and looks good and will then approve the release.22:31
godbykOnce the release has been approved, we'll upload it to the site, lulu.com for printed copies, and let humphreybc do his marketing thing.22:31
humphreybcgodbyk, yes, that's the best way to do it. The problem could be finding an editor for each language - here's another reason why we need better communication with the translators22:31
godbykAny objections or comments?22:31
nisshhright, i need to go, i need atleast 30 mins sleep before college today22:31
nisshhcyas later'22:32
humphreybcokay nisshh :)22:32
godbykSee ya, nisshh22:32
humphreybcthanks for coming!22:32
nisshhnp cya!22:32
semioticroboticbye nisshh22:32
c7pcya nishhh22:32
semioticrobotic(I'll need to leave in about 10 minutes, too.)22:32
c7pi think the UMP should have the list of all LoCO teams and their forums22:33
godbykIdeally the editors will be folks who are fluent in that language, don't mind diving into a bit of latex, but that haven't been the primary translator.22:33
c7pfor the communication22:33
godbyk(It's hard to edit your own words.)22:33
humphreybcc7p: yeah, maybe we can work with the loco directory project or something22:33
humphreybcgodbyk sure22:33
ChrisWoollardImprove the docs on how to be and editor.22:34
godbykWe should probably bring back our bug form (or something similar) for the translation teams to receive bug notices in their translations.22:34
humphreybcOkay, I think the last couple of topics are moot now - we know what we are planning for Maverick, and we can't exactly decide on specific things for Lucid 2nd edition just yet22:34
humphreybcdutchie: how's that bug form going?22:34
c7pgodbyk: good idea22:34
dutchiehumphreybc: launchpad is a pain22:34
dutchieactually, no, oauth is a pain22:34
semioticroboticwhere do bug reports fall in the giant crazy workflow schematic?22:35
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: they're like rain - they fall everywhere and create gigantic puddles22:35
humphreybcand erode our infrastructure :P22:35
semioticrobotichumphreybc: ha!  well, that's empirically true, but ...22:35
semioticroboticone sec22:35
humphreybcalright, let's wrap this up! next meeting time?22:35
humphreybcWe can move half of this stuff to the list for further discussion22:36
godbykWe should probably have meetings a bit more frequently so we can keep them shorter.22:36
ChrisWoollardDoes that mean that eventually half the cliff falls into the sea22:36
humphreybcweekly meetings?22:36
dakerhumphreybc, yes22:36
c7phumphreybc why not22:36
humphreybcChrisWoollard: probably, unless we create a gutter system22:36
humphreybcwhat time suits?22:36
semioticroboticsorry ... anyway, yes, bug reports: they fall all over the place, but we should find an official space for them in thw rokflow22:36
godbykShall we go back to our original Saturday time slot?22:36
ubuntujenkinsto the time22:36
c7pit works for me22:36
ChrisWoollard20:00 is good for me22:36
humphreybcwe appear to have a better turnout at this meeting than we did on the weekends22:36
dakergodbyk, +122:37
humphreybcSaturday can work, yes22:37
ubuntujenkinssaturady is better22:37
humphreybcWeekly meetings, every Saturday at 2000 from now on22:37
semioticroboticmy schedule is so chaotic that any day is as good as another22:37
ChrisWoollardsaturday is also good22:37
c7pok saturday then :)22:37
humphreybcwell thanks for coming guys! I'm going to get up and grab some breakfast, then i'll start firing off mail to the list22:37
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:38.22:38
godbykIf anyone has any other notes they'd like to make, the pad's here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-201022:38
semioticroboticlooking forward to more discussion, humphreybc22:38
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: me too. This cycle is going to rock.22:38
humphreybcBut we have to keep our heads in the game and maintain focus, we're pushing the limit of what we can achieve in a short amount of time!22:38
dutchiei wasn't paying attention22:39
dutchiepoke me if i should have been22:39
humphreybcBut that's good, it's better to be busy working on exciting new stuff and be proud when you finish it, rather than being bored fartless in a stagnant project, right?22:39
semioticrobotichumphreybc: it will indeed.  but what you say is true: the worst thing we can do is let our enthusiasm get the better of us and overextend ourselves22:39
humphreybcdutchie: you probably should have been paying attention :P22:39
ubuntujenkinsdon't worry dutchie I was doing coursework22:39
ubuntujenkinsdid i miss much22:40
semioticroboticalright friends...I'm off22:40
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: Indeed. I think we have a very strong team with great people, I'm confident we can do it. We'll need the community's support though, and that's something we haven't had a heap of last cycle. But i'll work on that.22:40
ubuntujenkinsnight semioticrobotic22:40
humphreybcnight Bryan!22:40
semioticrobotichumphreybc: and that's exactly why I think UDS is going to be a watershed moment for the project22:40
semioticroboticI wish you the best of luck in belgium22:40
humphreybcsemioticrobotic: totally. Thankyou!22:40
semioticrobotictake care ... all of you!22:41
humphreybcAlso, everyone, have a look at the sessions that are listed and try to remote participate if you can22:41
* semioticrobotic waves22:41
humphreybcthe best place to look would probably be the list that i'm going to22:41
ubuntujenkinslink please22:41
humphreybcI'm going to all the documentation related ones22:41
* ubuntujenkins will try but i have a busy month at the moment22:42
humphreybcthe full list is quite long22:42
* dutchie redirects people back to #ubuntu-manual22:42
humphreybcYes, I also have a very busy month, next month too. I have to do more uni work22:42
humphreybcGood meeting team! As you were ;)22:43
bodhi_zazenTechnoviking: poke =)23:03
Technovikingsorry on the phone23:04
bodhi_zazenNP, we can wait Technoviking23:04
jdongwe have quorum then :)23:04
Technovikingoff now23:04
bodhi_zazenShall we start ?23:04
bodhi_zazendo we wish to use mootbot ?23:05
bodhi_zazenmakes it a bit easier to read the irc logs =)23:05
jdongno objection here!23:05
MootBotMeeting started at 17:05. The chair is bodhi_zazen.23:05
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]23:05
bodhi_zazen{TOPIC} UF Games section23:06
MootBotNew Topic: {TOPIC} UF Games section23:06
bodhi_zazenAI has made some excellent suggestions23:06
bodhi_zazenI think for the most part we can adapt these changes, but I am not sure if UG or matthew prefer to make such changes23:07
bodhi_zazenIf not, I would be willing to make the changes, although I would need to consult with AI again as I do not recall the specifics23:07
TechnovikingI'm fine with AI suggestions23:08
jdongI don't recall if UG made an opinion on the issue yet23:08
jdongbut I'm also fine with AI's suggestions23:08
bodhi_zazenNo, not yet23:08
jdongbut shoot an email off to the list for any 11th hour objections23:08
Technovikinguseless people think a Wine and Emulator prefix tag would work as well23:08
bodhi_zazenI do not recall UG or matthew expressing an opinion either way23:08
bodhi_zazenTechnoviking: I am willing to go with what AI feels is best, he seems quite versed with the issues23:09
bodhi_zazenPersonally I do not game much so I do not have strong feelings either way23:09
bapoumbasame here23:09
jdongI trust in AI's judgement given his long track record in managing the gaming section23:10
bapoumbaAi knows what would suit the games category best23:10
bodhi_zazenHow about if we post on the ML asking for UG and matthew to comment ?23:10
jdonga little bit of a tangent point....23:11
bodhi_zazen[AGREED] Post on ML as above ^^23:11
MootBotAGREED received:  Post on ML as above ^^23:11
jdongI have slight concerns/worries with how we're managing action items?23:11
bodhi_zazenCalvin Smith, you here ?23:11
bodhi_zazenhow so jdong ?23:11
jdongdo we have a database of them to see if we carried through?23:11
jdonge.g. are we forgetting to do things we say we'll do?23:11
bodhi_zazenWell, I hope that is how Mootbot can help23:12
jdongthat's what made me think of this23:12
bodhi_zazenAnyone willing to post to the ML now ?23:12
jdongI like how the Tech Board and DMB have their ACTION item reviews every meeting23:12
bodhi_zazenCalvin / Toxic Mite going twice23:12
bodhi_zazenjdong: we can do that, I would suggest using our agenda page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda23:13
jdongbodhi_zazen: big +123:13
bapoumbabodhi_zazen, I can post, but not now23:13
jdongat the end of the meeting add all action items to the next agenda.23:13
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..23:13
MootBotNew Topic:  - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..23:13
bodhi_zazenin the absence of Calvin I suggest we table this item23:14
bapoumbahe needs to show up23:14
bodhi_zazenany other comments ?23:14
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] - bapoumba New Staff Process23:15
MootBotNew Topic:  - bapoumba New Staff Process23:15
bodhi_zazenbapoumba: you're up =)23:15
bapoumbaWe have been extensively discussing this point on the FC ml23:15
bapoumbawe would like to document the process23:15
bapoumbawe came up with guidelines we can post in FFH for ex23:16
bapoumbado you want them here ?23:16
bodhi_zazenyour guidelines / suggestions were excellent bapoumba , I think you notified the other staff as well, on the forums if I recall.23:17
bapoumbayes, in the Staff area23:17
jdongdo we have a public link to it for the posterity of the meeting logs?23:17
bapoumbaerr, no :)23:17
bodhi_zazenNo jdong , but we can post a link anyways =)23:17
jdonghehe okay :)23:18
jdongworks for me ;-)23:18
bapoumbabasically bodhi_zazen and I would take over this project23:18
bapoumbamatthew will mentor us23:18
bodhi_zazen[LINK] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146320623:19
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146320623:19
jdongI've watched over the discussions on the list and am happy with what I saw23:19
bapoumbaall the rest has already been said in several threads in FFH23:19
bapoumbaquite some time ago23:19
bapoumbawhere can I upload the text ? Cannot recall23:20
bodhi_zazenAny further comments, if I recall we were just wanting to make people outside of the FC aware of the changes23:20
bodhi_zazenupload what text bapoumba ?23:20
bapoumbawe'll make it public on the forums if everyone agrees23:20
bapoumbathe Staff process23:20
bapoumbapastebin or something ?23:20
bodhi_zazen+1 pastebin23:21
drubino/ question/comment plz23:21
bodhi_zazensec ...23:21
bodhi_zazengo drubin23:21
bodhi_zazen[LINK] http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN23:21
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN23:21
drubinbodhi_zazen bapoumba: I rather like the idea of staffing process to be vague... it means there aren't a fixed set of requirements that people try and work towards but rather good people get the roles23:21
MootBotLINK received:  http://pastebin.com/zQ8cp11j23:22
drubinI do think that not knowing is what made the great people show up from the average people23:22
bapoumbadoes that work on your end ?23:22
bodhi_zazenI think posting some guidelines is "OK" , we will leave squiggle room =)23:22
bapoumbadrubin, we often have questions about it23:23
bodhi_zazenyes bapoumba , but you were too slow =)23:23
jdongdrubin: it is interesting to hear someone advocating the opacity. We've traditionally received a lot of complaints about the black box nature23:23
drubinbodhi_zazen: That list is purse "squiggle" room. it was pretty much FC makes dession.23:23
jdongdrubin: I don't think the new process is a list of requirements for how to be a staff member though.23:23
drubineither way I am going to keep quiet now hehe23:23
bapoumbabodhi_zazen, I'm always slow :)23:23
jdongno, please feel free to comment!23:23
bodhi_zazenI think a FAQ or sticky is in order as we receive enough questions about the topic23:23
drubinjdong: Yes but I hadn't seen the link before23:23
drubinCan I add something to the agenda before the end of the meeting since I am here and talking23:24
bodhi_zazenIf we have time drubin23:24
bodhi_zazenAny other comments on the "New Staff Process" ?23:24
jdongdrubin: even if the procedure is "the FC looks at everyone case-by-case", we'd like to say that formally. Right now the procedure seems to be "Look under your seat for your golden ticket!"23:24
bodhi_zazenI am not sure we need to take action ...23:24
jdongformal documentation is good :)23:24
bodhi_zazenLeoArias poke =)23:25
elopioI'm Leo Arias :)23:25
bodhi_zazenExcellent !23:25
bodhi_zazenTY for coming23:25
bapoumbahello elopio23:25
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] Central America forum23:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Central America forum23:25
elopiothanks to you.23:25
elopiowe'll our idea is to use only one forum for all central american locos.23:26
bodhi_zazenI would be OK with that23:26
elopiocurrently we have some forums in ubuntuforums.org, and forums in the websites of the locos.23:26
bodhi_zazenUnless there is a LOCO that needs a specific forum (ie high traffic)23:26
bapoumbaelopio, do all the LoCo admins agree ?23:26
elopiowe decided to use ubuntuforums in a meeting last year.23:27
jdongis "we" a unanimous (err bapoumba just mentioned that)23:27
elopioI sent an email to all ubuntuforums and to the mailing list.23:27
elopiobapoumba, jdong, only Honduras wants to keep the forum23:27
bapoumbaelopio, their own you mean ?23:27
elopioso, we have http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=281 http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=262 and http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=37423:27
jdongelopio: ok, so of the forums that wish to merge, their owners have all expressed agreement, correct?23:28
elopiothose are Costa Rica, Panamá and El Salvador, and should be closed. Or I don't know what's the procedure.23:28
elopiobapoumba, I mean that Honduras ( http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=369 ) has to be kept23:29
jdong(by owners, I mean leadership team and consistutents)23:29
bodhi_zazenelopio: I suggest you post a sticky / notice in each of those forums and allow public comment X 1 month -> then we can merge if there are no major objections ?23:29
bapoumbawould not it be strange that only Honduras keep their own forums ?23:29
bodhi_zazendepends on the size / volume of traffic and other issues I suppose23:30
elopiojdong, all the loco leaders are in the ubuntu-centroamerica launchpad team23:30
jdongbapoumba: if it's because the other locos wanted to merge, but Hondoras did not wish to do so, I don't feel it's strange.23:30
elopioI posted there: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-centroamerica/msg00075.html23:30
bapoumbaI suggest elopio talks with Joe23:30
elopioeveryone, but Honduras agreed on the merge.23:30
=== lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86
jdongbapoumba: my only concern is after the fact, members of the merged communities would be upset23:30
elopiook, wait a second so I can answer all your questions... :)23:30
jdongwhich bodhi's suggestion addresses23:30
bapoumbajdong, yes23:30
bapoumbahe talks with Joe, and then we talk again23:31
elopiobodhi_zazen, I posted on the forums two weeks ago23:31
bodhi_zazenlinky elopio ?23:31
jdongare there any objections by users on any of those forum topics?23:31
elopioand it's almost the last post in all the forums :) They are abandoned, that's why we want to join efforts.23:31
elopiobodhi_zazen, links comming...23:32
bodhi_zazenI am just suggesting *some* public comment time, otherwise people complain it changed without notice ...23:32
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146021723:32
Technovikingbodhi_zazen: +123:32
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146021323:32
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146021123:32
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=146020823:32
elopiobodhi_zazen, I understand. But I would be bad to have to wait even more.23:32
bodhi_zazenCan you sticky those ? And remove the other stickies for the moment ?23:33
elopiobodhi_zazen, can I stick a post if I'm not the admin?23:33
bodhi_zazenIt certainly appears you have done the footwork , and I appreciate that23:33
bodhi_zazenI think so , the LoCo mods should be able to, if no, PM an admin =)23:33
forumsmatthewsorry I'm so late--I had to pick up the kids from school23:33
dmizerbodhi_zazen ... looking at the forum activity in the ca locos, it doesn't look like they need to be stickied ;)23:34
elopioOk, I'll try to make them sticky.23:34
elopiothe other problem is that those forums where open a long time ago. I'm from costa rica, and I don't know where to find the guy that opened our forum. It's missing in action.23:34
bodhi_zazenI would +1 a commentary period or merging the forms , either way is "OK" with me23:34
elopiobodhi_zazen, would you agree on a week?23:35
elopiothe message has been there for two weeks already.23:35
elopioand we have decided this a year ago :D23:35
jdongI'd +1 a commentary period and then merging23:35
elopioit's about time to take action.23:35
jdongwell two weeks vs 1 year is a big difference23:35
jdongaction WILL be taken, there's no need to be too hasty.23:35
elopiojaja, ok ok.23:35
elopio2 weeks?23:35
jdongsounds reasonable to me23:36
Technovikingsometime before the next FC meeting for sure23:36
bodhi_zazenAny other comments ?23:36
elopiogreat. And whom should I contact to open the new forum and close the other 3?23:36
forumsmatthewOkay, I just got caught up. I think a commentary period and merge sounds good +123:36
bodhi_zazen[ACTION] Merge central america forums23:36
MootBotACTION received:  Merge central america forums23:36
* elopio takes note of joeb23:37
elopiocool. Thanks! :)23:37
bapoumbaelopio, joeb4 something :)23:37
drubinelopio: Joeb45423:37
TechnovikingI would like to ping the LC to keep them in the loop on this23:37
bapoumbathanks drubin !23:37
bodhi_zazencchhrriiss121212 poke !23:38
bapoumbaAutoStatic ping23:38
bodhi_zazenBslBryan ping23:38
elopiowhat's the LC Technoviking?23:39
Technovikingelopio: Loco Council23:39
bodhi_zazendrubin: mentioned a potential add on agenda item if there is time ...23:39
drubinbodhi_zazen: it is on there23:39
elopioTechnoviking, sure, that would be nice. I'll add it to the agenda for their next meeting.23:39
Technovikingelopio: A quick note to there mailing list would probably do23:40
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] Multimedia Production Name Change23:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Multimedia Production Name Change23:40
bodhi_zazenI think this would need to be discussed further23:40
MootBotLINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=143028323:40
bapoumbawithout them here, we should wait23:41
elopiothat sound's better. No meeting. Well, I'm leaving. Thanks for your time and support. Good luck23:41
bodhi_zazenAny additional comments ?23:41
jdong+1, no additional comments here23:41
bodhi_zazenbapoumba: It at least is easy to find in the logs if I add it as a [TOPIC]23:41
forumsmatthewI want to comment briefly on one thing that I missed by being late23:41
forumsmatthewit is quick23:41
bapoumbaplease :)23:41
bodhi_zazen[TOPIC] LoCo moderator suggestions.23:42
MootBotNew Topic:  LoCo moderator suggestions.23:42
forumsmatthewI am in favor of the new staff process we have discussed on the list23:42
forumsmatthew...just wanted to be on the record23:42
bapoumbaforumsmatthew, we have not voted23:42
bapoumbamaybe we should ?23:42
bapoumba+1 ^^23:42
bodhi_zazenI suggest we table the LoCo mod suggestions as well ?23:43
bodhi_zazenthen vote on new staff process ?23:43
forumsmatthewbodhi_zazen, agreed23:43
bodhi_zazenAny other comments on LOCO mods ?23:43
bodhi_zazen[VOTE] Adopt New Staff Process23:43
MootBotPlease vote on:  Adopt New Staff Process.23:43
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot23:43
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting23:43
MootBot+1 received from bapoumba. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 123:44
MootBot+1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 223:44
MootBot+1 received from forumsmatthew. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 323:44
bapoumbaping jdong :p23:44
MootBotAbstention received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 323:44
* bodhi_zazen does not feel comfortable voting for self ;P23:45
bapoumbame neither but meh23:45
jdongbapoumba: sorry23:45
MootBot+1 received from jdong. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 423:45
bodhi_zazen+ 1 to bapoumba =)23:45
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 423:45
bodhi_zazenAny additional issues , late additions to the agenda ?23:46
bapoumbadrubin ?23:46
elopiome again :)23:46
bodhi_zazenOK elopio =)23:46
drubinbapoumba: My topic?23:46
drubinelopio: can go first23:46
bodhi_zazenHow about drubin , then elopio ?23:46
bapoumbadrubin, yup, we are done with the Agenda23:46
elopioI can't mark the posts as sticky. I could probably talk to the admins of panamá and el salvador. But the costa rican one is going to be imposible.23:47
bodhi_zazendrubin: asked earlier23:47
elopiojust to let you know...23:47
bapoumbaelopio, please report them23:47
bodhi_zazenelopio: if you send me a PM on the forums, w/ a link to posts, I will do it23:47
bapoumbawith a note23:47
dmizerelopio: send me a pm in the forums and i will sticky them.23:47
drubinI just wanted to bring it to your attention that the sticky issue is getting well very sticky23:47
elopiobodhi_zazen, cool23:47
elopiowill do it.23:47
drubinhttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies23:47
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies23:47
elopiois you user bodhi_zazen too?23:47
bodhi_zazenelopio: bodhi.zazen23:47
* drubin is confused and waits23:48
* elopio goes to send pms23:48
bodhi_zazendrubin: yep, we have informally reviewed some stickies23:48
bodhi_zazenanyone in particular you think should be removed ?23:48
bapoumbadrubin, we go down the stickies from time to time23:48
drubinbodhi_zazen: Just wanted to suggest please please merging them.23:48
bodhi_zazenPM me links and I will discuss w/ staff23:48
drubinNo worries. not going to push any thing just please stop making stickies hehe23:49
bodhi_zazenSounds reasonable drubin23:49
* forumsmatthew goes to make a sticky about too many stickies /joke23:49
bodhi_zazenI have 2 stickies in the works, but will remove 1 ...23:49
bodhi_zazenThey are 4 the security section, HIDS and NIDS23:50
bodhi_zazenI have posted for comments / review by from staff, and am currently procrastinating ...23:50
drubinbodhi_zazen: Not a big deal and I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't have to be here any way23:50
bodhi_zazenActually I have worked on making (openvz) templates for Ubuntu 10.04 , lol23:50
bapoumbabodhi_zazen, it's foreign language to me :)23:51
MootBotLINK received:  http://download.openvz.org/template/precreated/contrib/23:51
bodhi_zazentoys bapoumba , VPS23:51
bodhi_zazenend meeting then ?23:52
bodhi_zazenthank you all for coming23:53
forumsmatthewthank you all!23:53
* dmizer waves23:53
* bapoumba gets uo in less than 5 hours23:53
jdongsounds like my schedule these days23:53
jdongyay end of term hell!23:53
forumsmatthewI just finished my last project. :)23:54
* jdong is jealous23:54
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:54.23:54
bodhi_zazennew amp forumsmatthew ?23:54
forumsmatthewI wish...classes23:55
forumsmatthewand a revision of The Official Ubuntu Book23:55
forumsmatthewand some videos23:55
forumsmatthewApril nearly killed me23:55
forumsmatthewI did do a retube and bias of the amp you saw in the picture...23:56
bodhi_zazensweet forumsmatthew23:56
dmizerforumsmatthew: it sounds beautiful.23:57
forumsmatthewthank you!23:57
bodhi_zazenI am considering posting a video of my girls playing Violin, assuming the staff is no bored w/ family pic23:57
forumsmatthewI love family pics23:57
* bodhi_zazen is a proud father23:57
bapoumbaNight everyone!23:57
bodhi_zazennight bapoumba23:57
forumsmatthewI have to run as well. Bye, all!!23:57
bodhi_zazenMe as well ...23:58

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