[11:49] <bimo7x> hallo?
[13:00] <humphreybc> hello all
[13:00] <humphreybc> Ayatana UX team, assemble?
[13:01] <thorwil> hola
[13:01] <vish> o/
[13:01] <aday> hello hello
[13:01] <godbyk> Greetings!
[13:01] <humphreybc> mpt's not here yet
[13:01] <aysiu> Hey there
[13:01] <aday> tut tut
[13:01] <humphreybc> he's in Brussels
[13:01] <humphreybc> if he doesn't show up in 5 minutes then we'll just start without him, that sound okay?
[13:01] <humphreybc> ha!
[13:01] <vish> humphreybc: i think he forgot , just pinged him
[13:01] <mpt_> :-)
[13:01] <wers> Hello :)
[13:01] <humphreybc> now _that_ is what I call timing
[13:02] <vish> :)
[13:02] <humphreybc> good work Scotty
[13:02] <mpt_> I'll deny any accusation of forgetting
[13:02] <vish> ;)
[13:02] <humphreybc> lol
[13:02] <humphreybc> okay, shall we begin?
[13:02] <mpt_> let's
[13:02] <aday> indeed
[13:02] <wers> let us :)
[13:02] <mpt_> So who's here?
[13:02] <thorwil> !
[13:02] <aday> i'm not
[13:03] <humphreybc> bonjour, mpt
[13:03] <humphreybc> godbyk is also here
[13:03] <aysiu> aysiu here. My first IRC ever.
[13:03] <mpt_> Hi aysiu, welcome, and thanks for being up at this hour
[13:03] <humphreybc> mpt_: are ye going to use mootbot?
[13:03] <aysiu> 5:00 am here
[13:03] <wers> aysiu, first ever? wow
[13:03] <humphreybc> aysiu: oh god!
[13:03] <mpt_> humphreybc, I don't know how to do that, do you?
[13:03] <humphreybc> mpt_: sure
[13:03] <humphreybc> #startmeeting
[13:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:03. The chair is humphreybc.
[13:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:04] <humphreybc> mpt_: it makes me the chair though, just tell me what topics you'd like me to set
[13:04] <mpt_> ok
[13:04] <mpt_> Unfortunately my Canonical compadres are busy at this design sprint thingy
[13:04] <humphreybc> Introductions?
[13:04] <mpt_> yes, introductions
[13:04] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Introductions!
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions!
[13:05] <humphreybc> aysiu: after you :)
[13:05] <aysiu> Ubuntu user for five years.
[13:05] <aysiu> New to IRC, as you all know now.
[13:05] <aysiu> I live in California and work in a school in the admission office.
[13:06] <aysiu> And I help out on the Ubuntu Forums occasionally as a moderator.
[13:06] <humphreybc> aysiu: awesome :)
[13:06] <mpt_> I invited aysiu to help with communication between designers and users on the forums
[13:06] <aday> mpt_: cool
[13:07] <wers> mpt_, that's gonna help a lot
[13:07] <mpt_> So, for everyone else
[13:07] <humphreybc> wers: after you!
[13:07] <mpt_> How about we just compose two or three sentences and post them all at once. That way we don't need to wait for anyone.
[13:07] <humphreybc> mpt_: that sounds good
[13:07] <mpt_> Just who you are, where you're from, what your area of interest is.
[13:08] <wers> I'm Allan Caeg from Philippines. 20. Psych grad. UX Specialist currently at work.
[13:08] <wers> it's 8pm here. doing overtime. i actually have work to do but i cant miss this. hehe
[13:08] <mpt_> I'm Matthew Thomas, I work on Canonical's Design team as an interface designer, and I'm interested in encouraging more distributed design and UX activities.
[13:08] <godbyk> My name is Kevin Godby. I'm currently a PhD student at Iowa State University in the human-computer interaction program (with a background in psychology and computer science). I'm currently procrastinating on my dissertation.
[13:09] <humphreybc> My name is Benjamin Humphrey and I'm a 19 year old New Zealander and I've been using Ubuntu for about a year. I'm studying computer science in Dunedin at Otago University. My involvement in Ubuntu comprises of founding/leading the Ubuntu Manual project, helping with documentation and offering design feedback and mockups for various things.
[13:09] <thorwil> i'm a visual and wannabe interaction designer (freelance). germany, not far away from the netherlands. have been busy in the ubuntu-artwork realm and lately working with humphreybc and godbyk on the ubuntu manual, where i'm responsible for the title page
[13:09] <mpt_> hi mgunes, I was just wondering if you were going to make it :-)
[13:09] <mpt_> we're doing introductions
[13:09] <aday> my name's Allan Day, i'm a research student based in the uk. i'm a volunteer for the gnome project. i mainly work on interface design and usability stuff
[13:10] <mgunes> hi mpt; I seem to have connection problems (I'm at a cafe). I'll try to reconnect and catch up with you if I drop again.
[13:10] <mpt_> ok
[13:10] <mpt_> Is that everyone?
[13:10] <vish> Hi, I'm Vishnoo , been using ubuntu for a while .. as a hobby i'v become one of the pixel pushers , doing icons around the desktop. You'd often find me working on Humanity icons or shepherding papercut bugs. Other themes I'v worked on are the Breathe icons , notify-osd , ubuntu-mono , and recently for upstream gnome-icon , gnome-icon-symbolic too.. for apps like empathy , poppler , software center. When I'm bored of doing icons, I nit-pick on mpt's
[13:10] <vish>  designs or doing some mockups .
[13:10] <humphreybc> cool
[13:10] <mpt_> great
[13:10] <humphreybc> I think that's everyone now
[13:11] <humphreybc> apart from Murat
[13:11] <hyperair> Hi, I'm Loong Jin, a MOTU and maintainer of Banshee in Debian, a 2nd year computer engineering student in singapore.
[13:11] <humphreybc> :)
[13:11] <mpt_> So, next topic: What this team is for
[13:11] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] What are ya'll here for?
[13:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  What are ya'll here for?
[13:11] <mpt_> I have been chatting with Jono Bacon, Master of Community about this
[13:12] <mpt_> Particularly the process for people joining etc
[13:13] <mpt_> I want to avoid as much bureaucracy as possible, because (a) we don't have any authority so process isn't as important, and (b) the sort of people who are good at UX stuff are often really busy and don't want to get involved in lots of process
[13:13] <humphreybc> mpt_: +1 Bureaucracy = nothing gets done.
[13:13] <mpt_> I've sent him a proposed charter, which is really simple, and once he's reviewed it I'll send it out to all of you
[13:14] <mgunes> I'm Murat Gunes. I'm currently working as a freelance web / interactive designer, and have studied fine arts and visual design. My Ubuntu involvement has consisted mostly of bug triage and community support / moderation for the past few years. I've digested an unhealthy amount of of UX / Interaction design / HCI theory lately, and am looking to put things into practice with this team.
[13:14] <humphreybc> mpt_: what's the rest of the design team's involvement in this?
[13:14] <mpt_> thanks mgunes
[13:14] <mpt_> The really short version is that we're not gatekeepers, we're not making design decisions, we're just trying to oil the wheels and encourage design and UX activities.
[13:14] <mpt_> Those of you who are subscribed to the ayatana@ mailing list will have seen that we have no shortage of interesting ideas.
[13:15] <humphreybc> mpt_: I think that's an understatement
[13:15] <thorwil> i thought it was no shortage of noise, actually ;)
[13:15] <humphreybc> thorwil: yeah, absolutely
[13:15] <mpt_> What we do have a shortage of is things like wireframes, implementable mini-specifications, user testing, user research, that sort of thing.
[13:15] <wers> yep
[13:15] <mpt_> And focus. A shortage of focus. :-)
[13:15] <humphreybc> mpt_: So, less random ideas and noise, more useful stuff?
[13:16] <mpt_> right
[13:16] <humphreybc> groovy
[13:16] <vish> 30~40 mails a day is too much to read :s
[13:16] <mpt_> So, with that in mind ... next topic: What activities we could set up
[13:17] <humphreybc> vish: I know, I have almost stopped reading them now.
[13:17] <humphreybc> Hmm
[13:17] <wers> yeah. good thing gmail has threads
[13:17] <hyperair> vish++
[13:18] <mpt_> (humphreybc, that's your cue;-)
[13:18]  * humphreybc is thinking
[13:18] <vish> humphreybc: change topic
[13:18] <vish> ;p
[13:18] <humphreybc> So, what we want to do is encourage *good* design, right
[13:18] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] What activities we could set up, yes yes
[13:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  What activities we could set up, yes yes
[13:18] <mpt_> MootBot is in agreement
[13:18] <wers> hehe
[13:18] <hyperair> lol
[13:18] <humphreybc> Right now, we have a lot of ideas and things, but they never really eventuate into anything. Why not?
[13:19] <mpt_> Because people don't know what the next step is
[13:19] <hyperair> because the mailing list is chaotic and nobody reads it anymore.
[13:19] <mpt_> Brainstorm is like this too
[13:19] <wers> that's right mpt_
[13:19] <mpt_> "Hey, what about..."
[13:19] <humphreybc> Brainstorm IS like this too
[13:19] <aday> and because devs aren't always willing to implement recommendations
[13:19] <aysiu> Can you clarify what you mean by "activities"?
[13:19] <mpt_> So, in my mails to you I suggested a few activities we might want to help set up
[13:19] <humphreybc> mpt_: I think we need to establish exactly what we need to do before we start thinking about how we should do it
[13:19] <mpt_> right
[13:20] <hyperair> the mockups all get thrown into the mailing list, and get lost when a new discussion starts up and drowns the previous, which is very common in ayatana-list.
[13:20] <mpt_> For example, distributed user testing
[13:20] <humphreybc> Yup
[13:20] <humphreybc> A centralized location for quality design would be nice
[13:20] <wers> humphreybc, that would be cool
[13:20] <hyperair> i think the wiki could function for this.
[13:20] <wers> good design repo
[13:20] <aday> the gnome design crowd are busy working on collaboration tools
[13:20] <aday> some of that should bear fruit in not too long
[13:20] <wers> aday, yeah. mairin's hub
[13:20] <vish> sparklepony? ;)
[13:20] <thorwil> the wiki might be the best we have, but it's actually a horrible thing
[13:20] <humphreybc> An area (maybe a wiki for now) where we could actually post _tasks_ that are high priority for Ubuntu. People could have a crack at these tasks
[13:20] <mpt_> That's an activity that would have several stages -- we'd want to set up a recommended procedure, work on improving/automating screen capture and webcam capture, things like that
[13:20] <hyperair> aday: link?
[13:21] <aday> sparklepony! :D
[13:21] <mgunes> I was thinking in the lines of ubuntu-classroom sessions on the "101" or "what is what" of wireframes, heuristic evaluation, spec writing, etc.
[13:21] <humphreybc> I agree, the wiki is not the answer in the long run
[13:21] <mgunes> that's one thing I can participate in
[13:21] <humphreybc> I think a lot of people want to help design but don't know where to help
[13:21] <humphreybc> they're designing blind
[13:21] <wers> brb boss is calling
[13:22] <humphreybc> there's no information about target audience, or no information about what problems Ubuntu has - other than what each designer personally thinks, or what projects like the papercuts project pulls up
[13:22] <thorwil> yeah, we should try to spread design education
[13:22] <mpt_> So, user research is another activity
[13:22] <aday> acheivable tasks are good. in gnome we're trying to review a lot of ui, cleaning up preferences dialogs etc
[13:22] <mpt_> Who uses Ubuntu, what do they use it for, how old are they, what languages do they speak, etc
[13:22] <thorwil> i'd love to throw a whole lot of infrastructure at that, but i doubt we have the ressources in man hours
[13:22] <mpt_> I have no idea how we'd research that, but other people probably would.
[13:22] <humphreybc> What we should be doing is taking information from the design team on problems in Ubuntu and working closely with Canonical to figure out a list of things that actually *need* definite improvement. Then we can spur focused discussion on the important stuff.
[13:22] <vish> mpt_: i think first we need to snip the noise before people try to waste their time too.. send a mail that we like that people have these new ideas  , but currently not within the scope? , but rather to setup a wiki like :  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts   . ayatana/concepts ?
[13:23] <humphreybc> So mpt_, as I understand it, our team is to mainly organize the work, rather than complete it ourselves?
[13:23] <mpt_> humphreybc, exactly
[13:23] <humphreybc> So we're sort of a middle man between Canonical and design, and the community?
[13:23] <mpt_> This isn't about the Canonical Design team so much
[13:24] <humphreybc> But more about channeling all those ideas from Ayatana into something useful?
[13:24] <mpt_> If people can design something awesome and get it implemented and into Ubuntu completely independently, that's great
[13:24] <mpt_> For example, we want application developers to be able to make their applications great without having to ask Canonical for help
[13:25] <humphreybc> One activity we could do to start out would be to organize pairing up UI experts with programmers
[13:25] <mpt_> yes, it's about channeling
[13:26] <vish> mpt_: .. how about having a FAQ section for the design changes?  some of the questions keep getting repeated often , much too often
[13:26] <humphreybc> So, some programmer has a great idea to write an app, but isn't too sure on how to design it or wants feedback on their design. They approach us, we choose some eager UX person from the community to pair them up with the programmer. End result = awesome, usable program.
[13:26] <aday> there's a lot of talk about exciting/sexy new stuff at the expense of polishing what we've already got. it would be nice to review existing interfaces and get them up to scratch
[13:26] <humphreybc> mpt_: I also think we should be encouraging more open design from the design team. By encouraging, I mean actually helping out where we can because I know you guys are busy.
[13:26] <mpt_> vish, for changes that come from the Canonical Design team, we'll be posting rationales on design.canonical.com. For changes that come from sabdfl, he'll post on markshuttleworth.com. :-)
[13:27] <vish> :D
[13:27] <mpt_> aday, yes, that's a good example
[13:27] <vish> aday: ++
[13:27] <mpt_> There was actually an example of that on ayatana@ a couple of months ago
[13:27] <mpt_> Robert Ancell asked for a usability review of Simple Scan
[13:27] <humphreybc> godbyk is making some banana bread, apparently. He'll be active soon.
[13:28] <humphreybc> mpt_: Right. So instead of the Ayatana ML pouncing on him with all sorts of crazy ideas, he could come to us and we'd pair him up with a suitable person.
[13:28] <mpt_> but he didn't get any responses afaik
[13:28] <aday> we sometimes get requests for reviews on the gnome usability list
[13:28] <vish> mpt_: yeah , i mentioned that he should try the gnome UX mailing list instead
[13:28] <mpt_> Well, it might be an interesting experiment to see if people who aren't experienced designers can follow instructions on doing a heuristic evaluation
[13:29] <aday> mpt_: that's a shame. i always try and respond on the gnome channels. been doing a review of deja dup as a result of a request
[13:29] <humphreybc> So to do any of this, people have to know we exist. We're a ghost project right now, no web presence or anything. How do we educate people about our team and get them involved?
[13:29] <vish> aday: he sent it to ayatana mailing list :)
[13:29] <humphreybc> can we use this for some activities? http://fivesecondtest.com/
[13:30] <humphreybc> Maybe we figure out something we'd like to test, then spread awareness of it and create something like a "User Interface testing day" or something
[13:30] <mpt_> I'm sure we could
[13:30] <humphreybc> get the community involved in testing, it's easy and anyone can do it.
[13:30] <humphreybc> The community would feel like they're helping with design if we make it obvious the results will be listened to.
[13:30] <mpt_> So, let's have some actions for this meeting
[13:31] <humphreybc> Sure. First action would be to talk at UDS some more, right?
[13:31] <mpt_> First, would someone like to volunteer to set up a wiki page where we can list all the activities we'd like to do
[13:31] <mpt_> Not all of us will be at UDS, humphreybc :-)
[13:31] <mgunes> humphreybc, in my experience, making the masses aware of the difference between "listened to" and "implemented" is extremely difficult, so I'd be cautious there.
[13:32] <humphreybc> mpt_: Sure, but there's always remote participation. What I'm saying is that we need another meeting to iron out the team goals, we can't go rushing into organizing activities when we still don't know what we're trying to fix, right?
[13:32] <godbyk> It sounds like we also need to work on educating people on how to do UI reviews and design proposals, as well.
[13:32] <vish> aday: if you wanna follow up on the simple scan review > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00987.html
[13:32] <mpt_> thanks vish
[13:32] <aday> vish: cheers. will have a go
[13:32] <humphreybc> I firmly believe a website will be a better in the long run than a wiki. A wiki is fine for now, but we should start thinking about a site instead.
[13:32] <mpt_> The difficulty of starting with Simple Scan is that its limited to the subset of users who have a scanner
[13:33] <humphreybc> If we stick it on an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be even better.
[13:33] <mpt_> but Robert would also like us to review the trunk version of Sudoku (not the version in Lucid)
[13:33] <mpt_> because that's had a lot of design changes lately
[13:33] <mgunes> if a significant number of us have blogs, we could set up a "Planet Ayatana UX" too
[13:34] <mpt_> Unfortunately I am at a design sprint and I need to get back to work soon-ish
[13:34] <humphreybc> mgunes: We could, but in my experience from UMP, it doesn't really help that much.
[13:34] <humphreybc> Twitter feeds and a Facebook group are far better at spreading news than an aggregated blog.
[13:35] <humphreybc> mpt_: heh
[13:35] <mpt_> So, sometime today or tomorrow, I will post to ayatana@ with an introduction to heuristic evaluations, and an invitation for people to try evaluating Sudoku as a simple example
[13:35] <mpt_> And we'll see how that goes
[13:35] <mpt_> Maybe it will be noise
[13:35] <mpt_> Maybe it will be useful
[13:35] <humphreybc> Hmm.
[13:36] <humphreybc> I don't hold high hopes for getting the ayatana ML to do a heuristic evaluation on something from trunk
[13:36] <humphreybc> If we want the community to help us do this work, we need to make it super easy for them. As you said before, UX type people are usually really busy as it is
[13:36] <mpt_> We'll need to provide step-by-step instructions on getting the code, yes
[13:36] <thorwil> mpt_: how about doing a brainstorm on etherpad, to later turn that into a wiki page?
[13:36] <humphreybc> But I understand it's early days
[13:37] <humphreybc> and we can't exactly launch some huge website and CMS with such limited manpower :P
[13:37] <mpt_> Does anyone want to volunteer to set up a document on other activities we should set up?
[13:37] <mpt_> I don't mind whether it's Etherpad or a wiki page or something else
[13:37] <humphreybc> mpt_: I could probably do it on the plane to UDS.
[13:37] <thorwil> one moment
[13:37] <humphreybc> I'll have a lot of time O.o
[13:37] <thorwil> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux
[13:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux
[13:37] <humphreybc> so
[13:38] <mpt_> thanks thorwil
[13:38] <humphreybc> [ACTION] Set up a document for brainstorming activities
[13:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Set up a document for brainstorming activities
[13:38] <humphreybc> [ACTION] mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation
[13:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation
[13:38] <humphreybc> Another meeting at some point?
[13:38] <mpt_> I've scheduled a meeting for the same time every week
[13:38] <humphreybc> oh nice
[13:38] <humphreybc> So that wasn't a mistake :P
[13:38] <mpt_> If this time becomes horrible for you, please update the meeting times wiki page
[13:39] <mpt_> and we'll recalculate :-)
[13:39] <humphreybc> Groovy
[13:39] <humphreybc> I think this is a good start
[13:39] <humphreybc> If anyone comes up with ideas, stick em on the pad
[13:39] <mpt_> yes, this is exciting
[13:39] <mpt_> Thank you everyone for turning up
[13:39] <aday> np
[13:39] <humphreybc> I'll put some stuff on the pad in a minute
[13:40] <humphreybc> Thankyou guys!
[13:40] <thorwil> alright
[13:40] <wers> ok. boss is out i'm back
[13:40] <wers> is it done? hehe
[13:40] <humphreybc> wers: pretty much :P
[13:40] <aday> wers: too late :)
[13:40] <humphreybc> Oh, also, we need a mailing list
[13:40] <humphreybc> Shall I set that up?
[13:40] <mpt_> Thank you wers for providing such an excellent example of how we're too busy for bureaucracy
[13:40] <aysiu> I'm still digesting... to be honest, I don't know if I can meet every week at this time.
[13:40] <godbyk> humphreybc: Just set one up through launchpad then.
[13:41] <mpt_> humphreybc, sure, just activate the LP team mailing list
[13:41] <wers> aw. haha
[13:41] <humphreybc> okay
[13:41] <humphreybc> i'll do that now
[13:41] <humphreybc> #endmeeting
[13:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:41.
[13:41] <wers> good thing there's a log
[13:41] <aday> see you next week :)
[13:41] <humphreybc> wers: yeah
[13:41] <wers> hopefully, no overtime for me next week. see you!
[13:41] <humphreybc> either at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ or irclogs.ubuntu.com should do the trick
[13:41] <mpt_> aysiu, that would be quite understandable. Perhaps you can have a different role, e.g. posting, to our new mailing list, links to forum threads that involve design issues
[13:42] <wers> mailing list please so we can reply at our convenient times :D
[13:42] <humphreybc> wers: yep, i'll set it up in a jiffy
[13:42] <aysiu> I think that sounds more manageable. I'd love to help out, but I also don't know if participating directly in these IRC chats is maximizing my strengths.
[13:42] <vish> godbyk: hehe , we both posted the link at the same time ;)
[13:43] <godbyk> vish: I noticed!
[13:43] <mpt_> aysiu, cool
[13:43] <aysiu> I don't even know what a heuristic evaluation is!
[13:43] <aysiu> I will check out the IRC logs, though. And if there is a mailing list, let me know.
[13:44] <godbyk> aysiu: The mailing list will appear on the bottom of this page: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-ux
[13:44] <mgunes> do LP mailing lists automatically subscribe all team members upon creation?
[13:44] <godbyk> (once it's been set up)
[13:44] <mgunes> I seem to recall they did when they were new
[13:45] <mpt_> mgunes, I don't know
[13:45] <mpt_> We should make clear that the mailing list is just for organizational stuff, design questions belong in ayatana@ (or equivalent Gnome or KDE lists)
[13:46] <humphreybc> yeah
[13:46] <wers> mpt_, which mailing list? the one that's going to be created for ayatana ux?
[13:46] <mpt_> wers, yes
[13:46] <humphreybc> I've already had to decline someone who wanted to join the team an I awkwardly explained why :s
[13:46] <wers> noted
[13:47] <vish> humphreybc: you can just not approve ;) , no need to decline :)
[13:47] <humphreybc> vish: ah, forgot about that bit
[13:47] <mgunes> I'm somewhat worried about the notion of the "Ayatana" label covering all interaction design activities. This applies to the Ayatana ML too, which has become the place to throw ideas around about all design issues, not necessarily the Ayatana project.
[13:48] <humphreybc> mpt_: should we set up our own IRC room or not so much
[13:48] <wers> mgunes, oh yes
[13:48] <mpt_> humphreybc, I don't think so, #ayatana is quiet enough
[13:48] <humphreybc> kay
[13:48] <vish> humphreybc: no! -1
[13:48] <humphreybc> must be quieter than the ML!
[13:48] <godbyk> I've never been sure of what the scope of the Ayatana project actually is. :)
[13:48] <humphreybc> godbyk, you're not alone
[13:49] <vish> godbyk: heh , joining the party late? ;p
[13:49] <mpt_> mgunes, yeah, I originally intended to use the name Ubuntu instead, but Jono made the good point that we want upstream developers to feel welcome asking us for help (or getting suggestions from us)
[13:50] <mpt_> godbyk, originally it was "stuff around the outside of the screen", i.e. notifications and menus
[13:50] <wers> i really have to go now. see you next week :)
[13:50] <mpt_> godbyk, now it's "UX of software in and for Ubuntu"
[13:50] <mpt_> see you wers
[13:50] <humphreybc> mpt_: that's somewhat vague
[13:50] <mpt_> yes, it is
[13:51] <godbyk> vish: Yeah, I've been reading, just not commenting much.  Had to babysit some baking banana bread. :)
[13:51] <mpt_> I don't think that's a bug, though. It has a hard center and a vague perimeter.
[13:51] <mgunes> mpt_, if that's the case (I wasn't really aware that it was) , then the word Ayatana is OK.
[13:51] <humphreybc> it's more like an "Ayatana: Random design idea moshpit."
[13:51] <vish> godbyk: i meant the "not knowing the scope" party ;)
[13:51] <godbyk> mpt_: I don't feel so bad about being confused now!
[13:51] <godbyk> vish: Ah.. yeah, that too!
[13:52] <humphreybc> mpt_: Would we be working on improving Ayatana itself, or are we entirely separate?
[13:52] <aday> humphreybc: designer tools stuff: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-one-where-the-designers-ask-for-a-pony/
[13:52] <aday> that stuff seems to be coming together now
[13:52] <mpt_> humphreybc, I don't understand the question
[13:52] <godbyk> aday: Excellent! I was hoping it would, but wasn't holding my breath.
[13:53] <humphreybc> mpt_: So Ayatana is a bit of a moshpit of ideas right now, and I don't think it's entirely useful (or at least not reaching its full potential). Would we work on improving that, or would we stay out of Ayatana stuff
[13:54] <mpt_> humphreybc, the former
[13:54] <humphreybc> okay, good
[13:54] <mpt_> but not throwing our weight around, just making suggestions of things to do
[13:55] <humphreybc> gotcha
[13:55] <thorwil> too much orange on the pad
[13:55] <vish> thorwil: nice work! :)
[13:56] <thorwil> heh, ty
[13:56] <humphreybc> thorwil: lol
[13:56] <humphreybc> well that's your job, right? Pad writer?
[13:56] <humphreybc> Official Ayatana UX Team note taker.
[13:56] <humphreybc> :P
[13:57] <vish> thorwil: awesome! last entry
[13:58] <thorwil> lol
[14:00] <humphreybc> I'm not sure if I'll have time to make this project rock as much as I'd like to, we already have enough on our plate for UMP! That is, unless, someone starts paying me to work on these projects? hint.. hint...
[14:00] <vish> argh!
[14:01] <mgunes> I need to part right now - I'll check the rest of the logs. See you on the ML!
[14:01] <mpt_> see you mgunes
[14:01] <humphreybc> "This team's mailing list will be available within a few minutes."
[14:01] <humphreybc> chow mgunes
[14:02]  * hyperair considers dropping the "chow" hilight
[14:02] <godbyk> So what're our very next step?  (Or, more specifically, what's the very next thing I should be doing? :))
[14:02] <hyperair> everytime someone misspells ciao, i get highlighted.
[14:02] <godbyk> hyperair: keep it as long as you promise to berate those who use it for spelling errors. :)
[14:02]  * hyperair throws tomatoes at humphreybc 
[14:02] <vish> hyperair: chowder?  ;p
[14:02] <hyperair> grr
[14:03] <hyperair> =p
[14:03] <humphreybc> godbyk, not sure. I guess we just wait for the reaction to mpt's email to ayatana tomorrow
[14:03] <humphreybc> I'd like to get some web presence for our project up soon
[14:03] <humphreybc> hyperair: why do you have chow on highlight anyway?
[14:03] <vish> godbyk: probably wait for mpt's mail and reply from jono
[14:03] <hyperair> humphreybc: my surname.
[14:03] <godbyk> 'kay.
[14:03] <vish> humphreybc: his name!
[14:03] <humphreybc> ah
[14:03] <humphreybc> I don't think Pidgin can do highlighting. Which is a bit sad.
[14:04] <vish> humphreybc: we should stop chatting here , since this is a meeting channel :)
[14:04] <hyperair> aye sir
[14:04] <humphreybc> vish: yeah, i might get banned
[14:04] <humphreybc> lol
[14:05] <humphreybc> move to #ubuntu-manual, we're allowed to chat as much as we like there :D
[14:05] <humphreybc> it's basically a chatroom
[14:05] <thorwil> yeah, but don't dare to use #ayatana
[14:05] <humphreybc> thorwil: lol
[14:05]  * hyperair uses #ayatana as a rant-place
[14:06] <humphreybc> I wish I had the time to read all the messages in the ayatana ML
[14:06] <humphreybc> but it's getting out of hand, seems to be more emails in there than ever from this cycle
[14:07]  * hyperair suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users of the indicator-applet who lament the loss of the tooltips
[14:11]  * humphreybc also suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users with the choice to move the window buttons to the left
[14:12] <hyperair> yes, agreed.
[14:16] <aday> the gnome shell list is similar in many respects. i think people just like to bike shed
[14:17] <godbyk> I think a lot of the bike-shedding discussions could be mitigated if actual data were presented.
[14:17] <godbyk> But that never actually happens.
[14:23] <humphreybc> godbyk, do we even have actual data to present in the first place?
[14:24] <godbyk> I assume that Canonical occasionally might.
[14:24] <godbyk> But in general, no.
[14:24] <godbyk> I'm suggesting we should start gathering data instead of just collecting everyone's opinions.
[14:25] <humphreybc> godbyk, yep, and we need to write up that idea on the wiki for our session at UDS
[14:29] <ScottK> In general, I think the accumulated habits and learning of existing users get insufficient attention and value from designers.
[14:30] <ScottK> If they valued it more, they'd get less resistance.
[14:31] <godbyk> ScottK: Sometimes, though, those habits have been developed to cope with poorly designed software. And improving the underlying design, despite requiring some people to relearn things, is better for everyone.
[14:32] <ScottK> godbyk: Sometimes.  Often the marginal benefit is not worth it.
[14:33] <aday> also, many the people on these lists aren't representative of the majority of users
[14:33] <D4mi4n> hi
[14:33] <D4mi4n> did anybody tried to use the blackberry us modem ?
[14:34] <ScottK> D4mi4n: Use #ubuntu for help.
[14:34] <ScottK> aday: That's true, but neither are designers.
[14:35] <godbyk> ScottK: Right. One of the first rules that designers learn is that you're almost never designing the product for yourself.
[14:36] <ScottK> My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.
[14:38] <godbyk> I don't think that developers are disconnected with their users, but they are often only interested in incremental changes and don't want to tackle the fundamental design flaws in their software.
[14:38] <godbyk> And that's understandable given the amount of effort it takes and the time they've put into the existing code base, etc.
[14:39] <ScottK> That hasn't been my experience.  IME they generally don't know how to do it and welcome well considered inputs.
[14:40] <humphreybc> ScottK: you should read "The Inmates are running the Asylum" if you haven't already
[14:41] <ScottK> I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it hasn't been my experience.
[14:41] <ScottK> The larger problem in my experience has been developers having too narrow a focus to understand how their development area fits in a larger context.
[14:41] <ScottK> Once they get that, then a lot of resistance to change vanishes.
[14:42] <godbyk> Sure. Unfortunately, when I've made suggestions, I've often been met with the 'we accept patches' response.
[14:42] <ScottK> Which can either be a function of how you approach the communication or the project's openness to outside input.
[14:43] <vish> ScottK: ++1 :D   <ScottK> My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design.
[14:44] <godbyk> I think that it's also a response they provide because a lot of the time, when someone says, 'You should do this completely differently,' it's not backed up by any meaningful reasons.
[14:44] <ScottK> Yes.
[14:44] <ScottK> http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/03/open_source_usability_success.html for an example of it going well.
[14:46] <godbyk> ScottK: nice! it's good to see stories of usability working well with open source projects.
[14:47] <vish> godbyk: like for the current buttons switch , if the windicators were announced at the time of the switch , it would have gotten far less resistance [not that the idea is great ;) ] but a better reception
[14:48] <vish> but it seems  the windicators were developed as an aftermath of the response ;p
[14:48] <godbyk> vish: I agree completely.  I think the way that situation was handled was absolutely horrible.
[14:48] <godbyk> And it doesn't at all help relations between developers and designers.
[14:48] <humphreybc> Absolutely
[14:48] <godbyk> Or instill any confidence in the recommendations that designers provide.
[14:48] <humphreybc> I also think the aftermath wasn't handled particularly well by the design team, or Mark, or Jono who's the Community Manager.
[14:49] <humphreybc> It's safe to say Jono didn't do a whole lot of managing the community during that period
[14:49] <humphreybc> but hey
[14:49] <humphreybc> all in the past now
[14:49] <humphreybc> I just hope the lessons were learnt
[14:49] <vish> ScottK: btw , nice work on the kubutnu netbook , i tested the cd and it seems really neat
[14:50] <humphreybc> but from what I hear, this tends to happen quite often. I wouldn't be surprised if the exact same thing happens for Maverick - breaking UI freezes, landing stuff really late without telling anyone, etc etc
[14:50] <ScottK> vish: Thanks.  It's mostly upstream's work, we just put the pieces together.
[14:51] <ScottK> vish: If you ever want to chat with the plasma-netbook developers/designers (it's the same people on that project) there is now a #plasma-netbook channel.
[14:52] <vish> ScottK: neat.. will do , thanks
[14:58] <vish> humphreybc: rickspencer mentioned there wont be UIFe for maverick ;)  not sure how far it will work though
[14:58] <humphreybc> no UI freeze?
[14:58] <humphreybc> well, won't that just be fun.
[14:59] <vish> humphreybc: the UIF will exist but no exceptions..
[14:59] <persia> There will be a UI Freeze.  There will likely be UIFe requests.  I suspect the statement is intended to mean that none are planned in advance.
[14:59] <persia> Exceptions are *always* granted at some level, because sometimes there are bugs that *are* release-critical but require a UIFe.
[15:00] <vish> persia: i think he meant like for the changes we made this cycle
[15:00] <vish> the silly little changes
[15:00] <ScottK> Also, at least for Ubuntu the new theme landed before the U/I freeze.
[15:01] <godbyk> ScottK: It wasn't stable at that point. They rearranged the window control buttons after the freeze, still, i think.
[15:01] <godbyk> We had to retake a bunch of screenshots and patch a few.
[15:02] <ScottK> There were certainly post freeze changes, but the new theme with the buttons on the left landed ~a day or so before the freeze.
[15:02] <ScottK> Most other flavors had to land the new branding post-freeze because it wasn't ready.
[15:03] <godbyk> That's true.
[15:03] <godbyk> Either way, it certainly makes writing documentation difficult. :)
[15:04] <ScottK> Agreed.
[15:04] <vish> godbyk: UIFe mainly concern the docs team approval, and since they dont have any screenshots it didnt matter and got approved.. sucks for the non-official teams though
[15:04] <godbyk> vish: That's true.
[15:05] <ScottK> vish: Kubuntu was one of the ones that didn't make it and they are certainly official.
[15:05] <vish> ScottK: true , but i meant for the button switches :)
[15:11] <humphreybc> vish: yeah, well I'm going to kindly ask that they consider UMP as well in the future
[15:11] <humphreybc> considering we actually have screenshots and the docs team don't :)
[15:14] <popey> now now children
[15:14]  * popey can say that given he's the old fart round here :)
[15:14] <godbyk> popey: are you also an old fart in this channel? or just #ubuntu-manual?
[15:14] <popey> oh, everywhere :)
[15:14] <godbyk> ah, good to know! :)
[15:15] <humphreybc> hahahaha
[15:15] <humphreybc> hilarious
[15:16] <humphreybc> popey: I *did* add a smiley face at the end of my docs team jab, so that makes everything alright. Right? Right?
[15:20] <ScottK> popey: As long as I'm here, you aren't the old fart in the room.
[15:21] <popey> \o/
[15:24] <humphreybc> popey is overcome by joy as he realizes he is not the oldest in the room
[15:25] <godbyk> Don't feel bad, though, popey, we still think you're old.  (... says the third[?] eldest)
[20:59] <humphreybc> holey moley we have a lot to get through
[20:59]  * humphreybc is le tired
[20:59] <daker> humphreybc, just at time
[20:59] <nisshh> lets go then
[20:59] <nisshh> no time to waste
[21:00] <humphreybc> ye
[21:00] <humphreybc> who's here?
[21:00] <ubuntujenkins> o/
[21:00] <nisshh> me, godbyk
[21:00]  * godbyk waves
[21:00] <humphreybc> nisshh, isn't it like really early in aussie?
[21:00] <dutchie> uhoh
[21:00] <nisshh> yes, 4am
[21:00] <humphreybc> have we got any translators here? any Ilyas?
[21:00] <nisshh> she is in the channel
[21:00] <humphreybc> #startmeeting
[21:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is humphreybc.
[21:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:00] <ChrisWoollard> yes
[21:00] <semioticrobotic> giddyup
[21:00] <humphreybc> great, fairly good turnout then :)
[21:01] <humphreybc> okay, agenda is here
[21:01] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[21:01] <semioticrobotic> that's quite an agenda
[21:01] <nisshh> no kidding!
[21:01] <thorwil> !
[21:01] <humphreybc> we can use this for our scribbling notes for today
[21:01] <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
[21:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
[21:01] <dutchie> i'd like it on record that i am of the opinion has lost his marbles
[21:02] <dutchie> that humphreybc*
[21:02] <humphreybc> yeah, so what we'll do is just run over each thing briefly, get a general idea and then basically continue further talk in the list/next week and stuff
[21:02] <nisshh> dutchie: why is that?
[21:02] <thorwil> dutchie: he had marbles?
[21:02] <Red_HamsterX> I think he's perfectly sane. Just over-ambitious.
[21:02] <humphreybc> okay, someone got the project philosophy around? thorwil, have you got that link?
[21:02] <humphreybc> lol
[21:02] <dutchie> thorwil: well, yeah
[21:02] <humphreybc> order!
[21:02] <dutchie> ok, i'll stop being disruptive now
[21:02] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manual Philosophy
[21:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manual Philosophy
[21:02] <thorwil> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
[21:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/axMP6X6TIq
[21:03]  * semioticrobotic thinks humphreybc needs a GavelBot
[21:03] <humphreybc> oay
[21:03] <dutchie> no, not *another* bot
[21:03] <humphreybc> Thorsten, Kevin and I worked on these a few days ago
[21:04] <humphreybc> they're basically our "principles" for the team. They're not goals, they are independent of situation, and should reflect our team whenever/wherever
[21:04] <humphreybc> they're pretty rough at the moment but those who haven't already had a look should bookmark it and make sure you do
[21:04] <thorwil> "8. Success of our users is the ultimate goal" should be first!?
[21:04] <humphreybc> (all of this stuff will be emailed to the main list after the meeting for further discussion)
[21:04] <humphreybc> thorwil: yah, you're probably right :D
[21:05] <nisshh> humphreybc: the docs team said in a blog post that we were a direct "competitor"
[21:05] <humphreybc> nisshh: yeah I read that
[21:05] <Red_HamsterX> They sent e-mail to the list to that effect, too, didn't they?
[21:05] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: when was that?
[21:05] <dutchie> humphreybc: rectify this at uds, please
[21:05] <dutchie> kthxbai
[21:06] <Red_HamsterX> A while ago. Something about how we should be supporting the online docs. And then one of us responded by arguing that we're catering towards different audiences.
[21:06] <nisshh> we need to stay on topic anyway!
[21:06] <humphreybc> dutchie: sure. For anyone who doesn't know, there's this session here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-documentation-teams-collaboration
[21:06] <Red_HamsterX> I'll find the thread after this meeting.
[21:06] <ChrisWoollard> thanks
[21:06] <humphreybc> you guys chat about the philosophy for one sec, i just need to upload some images to flickr
[21:06] <humphreybc> (to show you)
[21:06] <humphreybc> (thorsten, godbyk, that's your cue)
[21:07] <IlyaHaykinson> I think that the research aspect should be towards the top of our principles
[21:07] <IlyaHaykinson> it's one thing to just write stuff that _we_ -- as experts -- think is important
[21:07]  * humphreybc would have done this earlier but he literally just woke up
[21:07] <IlyaHaykinson> and it's a whole other thing -- and something a lot more useful -- to back this up with info
[21:08] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yes, I completely agree. That's a very strong aspect of our team that should be reflected in our values
[21:08] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: i agree, without research there is no solid data
[21:08] <humphreybc> In my opinion not enough user research is conducted in the Ubuntu community, and we should lead the charge in that area (like we do in a tonne of other areas)
[21:08] <Red_HamsterX> Maybe we could take that a step further and find a way to run frequent polls on the site, for users to vote on the importance of various things as we think of them.
[21:09] <nisshh> Red_HamsterX: a weekly poll?
[21:09] <nisshh> or monthly?
[21:09] <thorwil> humphreybc: on the other hand, having research happen outside this project could lessen our load
[21:09] <Red_HamsterX> I'm thinking more like a bunch of polls, with everyone able to add them, perhaps via a bot in the channel.
[21:10] <nisshh> Red_HamsterX: we do need to keep it simple though, dont forget that
[21:10] <thorwil> what i mean is that we should not swallow everything we touch
[21:10] <humphreybc> thorwil: Yea, dreams are free. I emailed Belinda Lopez (Canonical's training manager) and she was very helpful, but said they just don't keep any data on frequently asked questions or support requests.
[21:10] <nisshh> since we are asking these questions to new users
[21:10] <synergetic> Many sites I've seen would have, at the bottom of info pages "Did you find this useful? Y/N" - would perhaps having something like that on the online docs help here? Things found useful there might be useful here, too.
[21:11] <humphreybc> synergetic: ;) agenda #3 you'll see something
[21:11] <Red_HamsterX> Well, yes, of course. I'm thinking something simple like "Firefox's plugin system" with choices about how intuitive users found it while learning.
[21:11] <Red_HamsterX> If it scores low, it might be a good thing to cover,
[21:11] <thorwil> synergetic: it's often that question that i do not find helpful as a user
[21:11] <nisshh> synergetic: thats brilliant!
[21:11] <Red_HamsterX> If it scores high, then we can probably just put a hyperlink into the document.
[21:11] <humphreybc> right
[21:12] <Red_HamsterX> Ooh. Context-sensitive feedback. That would definitely be a good way to collect data.
[21:12] <Red_HamsterX> +1 @ synergetic.
[21:12] <humphreybc> should we talk about this more in the "Research and surveys" topic a bit later on?
[21:12]  * Red_HamsterX quiets.
[21:12] <IlyaHaykinson> yes, later is better
[21:12] <nisshh> what if we go with both ideas?
[21:12] <humphreybc> heh
[21:12] <nisshh> ok
[21:13] <humphreybc> Good ideas Red_HamsterX, jot some stuff down on the pad
[21:13] <humphreybc> we'll have to email the ML all this info for further discussion
[21:13] <humphreybc> okay, so, moving on (otherwise we will be here for ages):
[21:13] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Improving translation workflow
[21:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Improving translation workflow
[21:13] <dutchie> oh dear
[21:13] <dutchie> i'm going to have to look away from c4's alternative election night
[21:13] <humphreybc> So there's a thread in the ML where I asked translators for feedback
[21:14] <ubuntujenkins> are there any translators here?
[21:14] <ChrisWoollard> yes
[21:14] <humphreybc> I was hoping that we'd have a couple of translators here to provide feedback
[21:14] <humphreybc> anyone?
[21:14] <humphreybc> cool
[21:14] <humphreybc> so basically, one thing I found from the list was that the translators want to be able to see their works faster
[21:14] <humphreybc> work*
[21:15] <ChrisWoollard> That would be good
[21:15] <ubuntujenkins> I would agree with humphreybc
[21:15] <dutchie> right, adverts
[21:15] <humphreybc> this would mean updating the translations more regularly. daker, dutchie. Can we script the stuff for the manual and for the website so it gets updated at a set time each day?
[21:15] <dutchie> i can concentrate
[21:15] <dutchie> humphreybc: probably
[21:15] <humphreybc> Then we could tell translators to check the site at like, midday UTC and they can see their new shit
[21:15] <daker> humphreybc, we can
[21:15] <humphreybc> okay, I think we should do that
[21:15] <nisshh> good plan
[21:15] <dutchie> in fact, if the merging didn't generate loads of conflicts, it would be easy
[21:16] <godbyk> dutchie: what conflicts do you see?
[21:16] <humphreybc> That would just be something we can do straight away to alleviate some of the issue. But we really want to be thinking about how we can fix it long term
[21:16] <godbyk> dutchie: I always just download the tarball from launchpad and overwrite the existing po files with those from launchpad.
[21:16] <dutchie> godbyk: mainly po4a and lp fighting over po file contents
[21:17] <dutchie> godbyk: i'm not sure if you can auto-request a translation export
[21:17] <dutchie> and make that po file formats
[21:17] <godbyk> I see.  I've been manually requesting the exports.
[21:17] <dutchie> godbyk: that would be a massive pain
[21:18] <dutchie> it would be possible to screen scrape the lp screen, but that is quite a hack
[21:18] <humphreybc> Can we talk with the launchpad guys to work out something?
[21:18] <humphreybc> I'm chatting with henninge next week at UDS
[21:18] <humphreybc> lemme find the blueprint
[21:19] <humphreybc> if you want to know anything, or have a feature request for LP, add it to this whiteboard and I'll bring it up with the devs
[21:19] <humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-launchpad-translator-communication
[21:19] <humphreybc> it's regarding communication but we'll just bundle everything into one
[21:19] <dutchie> shall i add it
[21:19] <dutchie> ?
[21:20] <humphreybc> dutchie: yup
[21:20] <humphreybc> go for it
[21:20] <humphreybc> okay
[21:20] <humphreybc> so in the future we'd like to simplify how things are translated
[21:20] <humphreybc> a lot of people have been having difficulty with the latex commands
[21:20] <humphreybc> I'm not entirely sure how to get around that. Improve po4a to make it ignore latex stuff more effectively?
[21:21] <ChrisWoollard> Re the latex stuff
[21:21] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: Do you think the problem could just be overcome with better translator education about latex commands? ie, a style guide etc
[21:21] <ChrisWoollard> The other day someone mentioned that there was a pdf that kevin created. It had loads in it
[21:21] <raffaele> ciao, sono uno di coloro che traducono Ubuntu manual in italiano, potrei ascoltare senza intervenire?
[21:21] <raffaele> hello, I'm one of those who translate Ubuntu manual in Italian, I could listen without intervention?
[21:21] <ChrisWoollard> Putting that in an accessible place would be good
[21:22] <dutchie> raffaele: of course
[21:22] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: yeah, that was our style guide from a while ago. godbyk is going to re-do it and make it better very soon, aren't ya godbyk?
[21:22] <ChrisWoollard> The style guide was what it was
[21:22] <godbyk> raffaele: Sure.  Feel free to jump in if you have anything to say, too.
[21:22] <humphreybc> raffaele: yes, please!
[21:22] <dutchie> the style guide needs more publicising
[21:22] <godbyk> humphreybc: well, we're going to expand the style guide to encompass more than just the latex commands.
[21:22] <godbyk> dutchie: I agree.
[21:23] <thorwil> i guess it's either  making translators understand latex macros well enough, or creating a clever editor
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> That would be great
[21:23] <semioticrobotic> can we link to the style guide on the Web site?
[21:23] <dutchie> i'll /topic it in #ubuntu-manual
[21:23] <semioticrobotic> that's an important document
[21:23]  * godbyk really wishes we could add a link to the top of the ubuntu-manual translations page that points to the style guide.
[21:23] <raffaele> thanks
[21:23] <IlyaHaykinson> i think the style guide should be online, on the wiki perhaps?
[21:23] <humphreybc> thanks dutchie
[21:23] <IlyaHaykinson> where the existing style guide is/was?
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> Yes
[21:23] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: problem with the wiki is that it can't demonstrate what LaTeX commands look like
[21:23] <humphreybc> hence why godbyk did it in a PDF
[21:23] <humphreybc> but we should embed it on our website in some reader
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard>  or on the getting involved page
[21:24] <nisshh> google docs?
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard> That page is very laking
[21:24] <humphreybc> yeah. Basically, it needs to be widely publicized
[21:24] <dutchie> what's the url for the guide?
[21:24] <ChrisWoollard> Lacking
[21:24] <godbyk> https://docs.google.com/viewer
[21:24] <raffaele> ehm, i think that the document writed in latex after some translations isn't so complicated
[21:24] <humphreybc> dutchie: the Getting Involved page for Translators is fairly minimalist :P
[21:24] <godbyk> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
[21:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
[21:24] <humphreybc> okay
[21:25] <humphreybc> so, godbyk, could you work on improving the style guide somewhat (if it needs it) and then daker, could you please look into the google PDF viewer to embed it on the website?
[21:25] <ChrisWoollard> It only has half the info
[21:25] <godbyk> we could link to the pdf from http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/translators
[21:26] <humphreybc> We need to rewrite a lot of the instructions on the website anyway - it's a bit complicated. Also, now that Ground Control is packaged in Lucid and working, we can use that and nisshh has been working on a bzr setup script.
[21:26] <ChrisWoollard> That is good
[21:26] <ChrisWoollard> possibly on editors also
[21:26] <humphreybc> godbyk, yea, we should also have it on the authors/editors pages too
[21:26] <humphreybc> coz they need to adhere to style
[21:26] <godbyk> agreed.
[21:26] <semioticrobotic> yes please
[21:27] <humphreybc> fantastic
[21:27] <humphreybc> daker, are you happy with that?
[21:27] <ChrisWoollard> You also need to test TexLive 2009 from the package tree aand get the missing bits in the package tree
[21:27] <nisshh> humphreybc: we need to pick up the pace...
[21:27] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: so it's easier to install for Joe Bloggs? I agree
[21:27] <ChrisWoollard> Yes
[21:27] <humphreybc> nisshh: we *always* need to pick up the pace :P
[21:28] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: I think that's something ubuntujenkins has been working on
[21:28] <nisshh> meh, well put!
[21:28] <ChrisWoollard> Lovely
[21:28] <humphreybc> or at least getting stuff in a PPA for easier installation
[21:28] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: ubuntujenkins has been working on that.
[21:28]  * ubuntujenkins looks up from uni work
[21:28] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: what's the progress on your TexLive 2009 PPA thing?
[21:28] <ChrisWoollard> Another good point
[21:28]  * nisshh has also been working on making it easier for newbies to start out
[21:29] <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: not bad a strange problem today i am doing it as quickly as i can. Lots of uni work at the moment
[21:29] <humphreybc> So yeah, key thing to remember is that as we get bigger, we're going to get more complicated and we want to avoid that
[21:29] <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: that's all good
[21:29] <humphreybc> next topic!
[21:29] <Red_HamsterX> Good foundations -> smooth growth?
[21:29] <ChrisWoollard> I think the website iis one of the reasons it is so hard to learn about becoming an editior
[21:29] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] HTML5 website
[21:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  HTML5 website
[21:30] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If you have suggestions for improving that area, could add them to the pad: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
[21:30] <humphreybc> okaly dokaly, take a look at these
[21:30] <humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/
[21:30] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/
[21:30] <humphreybc> This is our ace up our sleeve, if you will
[21:30] <dutchie> i will have more time in a month or 2 to assist with such a thin
[21:30] <dutchie> g
[21:30] <dutchie> i certainly will be interested
[21:31] <humphreybc> It's basically a web based, interactive support website
[21:31] <humphreybc> using our content from the manual
[21:31] <nisshh> im interested too
[21:31] <thorwil> humphreybc: why html5?
[21:31] <humphreybc> it'll have some really neat feedback features, like the widget on the left that appears when your mouse hovers over a paragraph
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> It looks pretty
[21:31] <semioticrobotic> the design is refreshing, but I worry about reaction from the docs team
[21:31] <c7p> i like the idea
[21:31] <dutchie> thorwil: because it's AWESOME
[21:31] <humphreybc> thorwil: because that gives us the most options for videos and things?
[21:31] <nisshh> humphreybc: would the web version be the same, or more comprehensive than the pdf?
[21:32] <semioticrobotic> hopefully this is part of the collaborative discussions at UDS next week
[21:32] <humphreybc> nisshh: more comprehensive in the long run
[21:32] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: yeah it will be
[21:32] <ChrisWoollard> What is the browser support of HTML5 like?
[21:32] <humphreybc> the docs team will probably freak
[21:32] <Red_HamsterX> Dock some sort of chat applet into the mockup, with feed directed at an IRC channel or something.
[21:32] <nisshh> right
[21:32] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: because this is an amazing overhaul that's very much needed
[21:32] <dutchie> ChrisWoollard: firefox/chrome are fine
[21:32] <Red_HamsterX> So we can find out, from people who are actually seeking help, how to better improve the layout.
[21:32] <semioticrobotic> safari is fine
[21:32] <dutchie> ChrisWoollard: that other browser is no good until version 9
[21:32] <nisshh> docs team: AAAAHAHHHAHHA! humphreybc has gone insane!!!!!
[21:32] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: not sure about firefox
[21:32] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Hmm. Interesting idea. Perhaps instead of having it on each page, we could actually have a live help area with an embedded IRC thing for #ubuntu or #ubuntu-manual
[21:32] <ChrisWoollard> I also think Opera is ok
[21:33] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: 3.6 i'm pretty sure does
[21:33] <Red_HamsterX> #ubuntu-manual-web*
[21:33] <thorwil> i was under the impression that html5 is still in flux, and that you have support feature by feature?
[21:33]  * godbyk thinks we'll have to get some help for poor daker! :)
[21:33] <Red_HamsterX> I'm thinking it'd be awesome to actually interact with users as a live index.
[21:33] <ChrisWoollard> Would that be the browser with 59%..... 58%... 57%.... share
[21:33] <Red_HamsterX> If we notice a lot of people looking ofr a specific article, we know what to promote.
[21:33] <daker> godbyk, +1
[21:33] <daker> :)
[21:33] <Red_HamsterX> Embeddable IRC things are common. =P
[21:33] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: may be there is a list here http://www.youtube.com/html5?gl=GB&hl=en-GB
[21:33] <humphreybc> So, you'll notice it's based on the ubuntu.com new website design. This is basically just the mockups of what I'd *like* it to be in the long run - if we could get it at an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be cool. But for now, it'll be at our own domain name.
[21:33] <daker> we need more developers
[21:34] <synergetic> humphreybc: #ubuntu is a bit manic, though. i went there for help once and was quite intimidated  by the pace of conversation
[21:34] <Red_HamsterX> I'll be getting started on the Quickshot server rebuild tonight.
[21:34] <humphreybc> synergetic: yeah, i agree
[21:34] <nisshh> daker: devs for what exactly?
[21:34] <humphreybc> We could definitely have an area on the site for technical support _with the site itself_ which has a chat thing for #ubuntu-manual
[21:34] <humphreybc> nisshh: web developers
[21:34] <godbyk> nisshh: To help with web dev work.
[21:34] <nisshh> right
[21:34] <IlyaHaykinson> i think the key is not HTML_5_, but _HTML_.
[21:34] <humphreybc> we need a mother sh*tload of web developers
[21:34] <IlyaHaykinson> as opposed to PDF
[21:35] <ubuntujenkins> I will start the wuickshot gui asap
[21:35] <ubuntujenkins> I think daker could use a hand with the website
[21:35] <Red_HamsterX> No, humphreybc, we don't. We just need a few good ones.
[21:35] <humphreybc> now, a few snags like latex > html conversion could be tricky
[21:35]  * nisshh sticks his hand up (wants to be a web dev!)
[21:35] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: well, yeah, that too :P
[21:35] <humphreybc> So basically, these are the mockups that I did a few days ago. I will start a new ML email with them attached to the whole team for feedback. Ideas on implementation are appreciated.
[21:36] <humphreybc> I'll be talking with the other doc teams at UDS about collaboration
[21:36] <humphreybc> and I'm sure guys like the learning project will be keen to help with this stuff
[21:36] <thorwil> wouldn't be the first thing be to clear up how we get from latex to html?
[21:37] <nisshh> thorwil: manual conversion line-by-line probably!
[21:37] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm pretty sure most of our content will convert easily.
[21:37] <humphreybc> Also, it's worth noting that something like this is not high on the docs team agenda. Someone asked them the other day if they were going to make help.ubuntu.com available in different languages, and they explicitly said no. We will have it in different langauges.
[21:37] <humphreybc> thorwil: pretty much :)
[21:37] <IlyaHaykinson> because we've been reasonably good about not using too much custom latex stuff in the chapter files
[21:37] <dutchie> as long as we keep nice semantic markup, we'll be fine imo
[21:37] <humphreybc> It's also very important to realize that the PDF will actually get smaller for the next few releases
[21:37] <daker> thorwil, http://www.davidpace.com/all-else/other-items/latex-to-html.htm
[21:38] <thorwil> well rumor had godbyk saw problems there
[21:38] <godbyk> There are plenty of ways to convert from latex to html, some better than others.
[21:38] <humphreybc> stuff like the command line and that will only be available on the website - it's "Getting Started with Ubuntu" and therefore should basically just cover how to get started - for learning more, we'd point you to the "Online Learning Center" portion of our site.
[21:38] <godbyk> Most of them won't read our files and convert them as-is due to unicocde characters and whatnot.
[21:38] <IlyaHaykinson> i think we just convert the chapters, not treating it as latex but instead as just text files with some custom markup
[21:38] <humphreybc> The "Online Learning Center" would also have featured articles from a number of people who want to help out, but perhaps their material is slightly too advanced or doesn't meet our same style to fit into the PDF.
[21:38] <IlyaHaykinson> and write a custom converter. will be far easier.
[21:38] <godbyk> But I can write a script to handle all the cases of latex code we have at the moment.
[21:39] <thorwil> coll then
[21:39] <thorwil> cool, even
[21:39] <nisshh> humphreybc:  you mean like specific topic HOWTO's or something?
[21:39] <godbyk> We'll want to look into using a single source document (say, xml, perhaps?) in the future that we can transform to both great latex and great html.
[21:39] <dutchie> yay xml
[21:39] <humphreybc> The website will be in two parts, pretty much: The Ubuntu support area, which is for direct issues with Ubuntu itself/learning how to do things. Think chapters 1 - 5 in the manual. Then there will be a Learning Center which will be for people who don't have problems, but just want to learn more. Think chapter 6 - 9.
[21:39] <dutchie> that'll be a pain to edit
[21:39] <dutchie> /write
[21:40] <nisshh> xml = yuck!
[21:40] <godbyk> dutchie: yeah, we've been discussing having an online WYSIWYG editor that hides all the markup.
[21:40] <humphreybc> nisshh: pretty much. Featured articles like this one by Danny Piccirillo: http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2010/04/ubuntu-1004-post-install-guide-what-to.html
[21:40] <thorwil> godbyk: for that, xml should have very clear benefits over staying with latex
[21:40] <nisshh> right
[21:40] <Red_HamsterX> Abiword and, I believe, OpenOffice, can export into DocBook pretty easily. We could look into XSLTs against that again.
[21:40] <humphreybc> So Danny could submit his nice article to our site, we'd stick it on there and feature it on the homepage of the Learning Center for a while
[21:40] <jcisio> not a pain, xml > xhtml we do xhtml then
[21:40] <synergetic> godbyk: what about D.I.T.A.?
[21:41] <godbyk> thorwil: the primary benefit would be that is parsable, where latex isn't really.
[21:41] <godbyk> synergetic: I'll have a look at it.
[21:41] <IlyaHaykinson> I'm with godbyk on having a single standardized storage format, and render it as HTML or LaTeX
[21:41] <humphreybc> Danny's article doesn't match with our style for the PDF, and it's a bit too detailed for the Getting Started book - but it will fit perfectly on the site
[21:41] <nisshh> xml is just overcomplicated html
[21:41] <dutchie> it may be easier to have the central data as html
[21:41] <humphreybc> One key thing we want the website to do is provide a way to give feedback on things, and suggest edits. We want it to be a moderated wiki, if you will.
[21:42] <dutchie> there are already loads of editors and parsers for it
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> no, i disagree. i think we need to use some semantic markup, which does not include _any_ graphical information.
[21:42] <humphreybc> But the key is minimalism. Nothing should distract from the content itself.
[21:42] <nisshh> humphreybc: would it be worth having a server manual on the website eventually too?
[21:42] <godbyk> dutchie: true, but then we lose a lot of the great typographic of latex.
[21:42] <thorwil> +1 for semantic markup
[21:42] <humphreybc> nisshh: we could look at that, yeah
[21:42] <IlyaHaykinson> at any rate, this storage format discussion is orthogonal to the general idea of building the site.
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> plus we're 42 minutes into the meeting and on item 3 of 13 on the agenda
[21:43] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: true. :)
[21:43] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: yes it is, we should discuss it later
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> so, can we agree that the website is a good idea and we like it?
[21:43] <humphreybc> Yep
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> and that we should pursue it further?
[21:43] <IlyaHaykinson> +1 on that from me.
[21:43] <godbyk> If anyone has comments on the format, etc., feel free to add them to the meeting notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
[21:43] <humphreybc> Oh, btw, we should have this done for Maverick
[21:43] <nisshh> +1 from me too
[21:43] <semioticrobotic> +1
[21:43] <humphreybc> It looks like a tonne of work but I reckon we can pull it off ;)
[21:43] <humphreybc> Moving on!
[21:43] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Quickstart booklets
[21:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Quickstart booklets
[21:44] <humphreybc> Now you guys probably know about this
[21:44] <nisshh> here goes humphreybc with his really ambitious goals again!
[21:44] <humphreybc> Basically it's just creating really pretty, small and concise booklets for LoCo teams and the like to hand out and market Ubuntu
[21:44] <humphreybc> While there are quite a few similar things on Spread Ubuntu, ours is going to be better
[21:44] <nisshh> how would it be any different?
[21:45] <humphreybc> We could start off with just some easy ones, like installation guide, or perhaps a "what is Ubuntu" type booklet.
[21:45] <ChrisWoollard> Are you thinking something like an oreilly pocket guiide?
[21:45] <humphreybc> Then we could branch out into task-related booklets, for example, "Transferring photos from your camera" etc
[21:45] <nisshh> we dont want another replica of the ubuntu pocket guide
[21:45] <dutchie> we definitely need to find something to do that doesn't take us dangerously close to another ubuntu project ;)
[21:45] <humphreybc> Basically, it's the text from the manual in a different format
[21:45] <ChrisWoollard> all or selected bits?
[21:45] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: well, we'd have a larger range, they'd be a lot prettier, more consistent and very printer friendly for distribution with LoCo teams.
[21:46] <humphreybc> selected bits
[21:46] <humphreybc> we're talking only 3 or 4 pages long, maybe two or three fold.
[21:46] <nisshh> meh, bit too much like "collectibles" if you ask me
[21:46] <persia> If you're concerned about collision, that's usually a good indication that it's a good idea to work *with* another team to create a shared, better, result.
[21:46] <ChrisWoollard> Almost like a cheat sheet  kind of thing
[21:46] <semioticrobotic> is this the time t talk dimensions?  I'm just trying to get a sense of how these booklets will look
[21:47] <humphreybc> persia: We'd love to work with the docs team
[21:47] <humphreybc> persia: Feel free to try and tell them that!
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> i would make the quickstart booklet a "nice to have" rather than a key goal of the maverick sprint. mainly we're being evaluated on our ability to deliver great manuals version after version.
[21:47] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: correct
[21:47] <humphreybc> priorities are important
[21:47] <IlyaHaykinson> perhaps one or two people can make the quickstart their project, and go off and plan it out, and come to the team with a ready-made plan?
[21:47] <nisshh> i agree with ilya on this one
[21:47] <humphreybc> the quickstart booklets aren't particularly high on the agenda
[21:48] <synergetic> persia: +1
[21:48] <persia> humphreybc: I've seen the mail.  I didn't want to reopen that.  the Spead Ubuntu thing might not be the same. :)
[21:48] <nisshh> not everything needs to ready for maverick
[21:48] <humphreybc> I'll be working on the design of the booklet with thorwil and anyone else who is interested, then Kevin will work on the LaTeX stuff to create them.
[21:48] <humphreybc> The key thing is that we're reusing our own content in all of these formats
[21:48] <humphreybc> which means we don't have to write more stuff
[21:49] <humphreybc> nisshh: true, but it's always good to reach for the stars and at least you'll end up on the moon
[21:49] <thorwil> humphreybc: currently i see no space on my agenda for a booklet
[21:49] <humphreybc> thorwil: Don't worry, I'll be doing most of the design
[21:49] <IlyaHaykinson> well, the quickstart booklet will necessarily need totally different content.
[21:49] <thorwil> humphreybc: the parts of that sentence don't match
[21:49] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't think anything we have now is directly usable.
[21:49] <humphreybc> thorwil: I mean, I'll do the design, then ask you to have a look for feedback
[21:49] <nisshh> me neither
[21:50] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: sure, it might need some tweaking to make it contextual enough to fit into such a small booklet
[21:50] <humphreybc> but, we'll see how we go
[21:50] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right
[21:50] <humphreybc> I'll talk with the LoCo council at UDS to see if they'd actually be interested in using something like this
[21:50] <humphreybc> christ we have ages to go!
[21:51] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Feedback from Lucid release
[21:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Feedback from Lucid release
[21:51] <nisshh> what kind of feedback did we get?
[21:51] <humphreybc> How do we think it went? What areas can we improve the most in?
[21:52] <humphreybc> nisshh: Not a heap, to be honest. We got mainly positive comments on the blog articles about the release
[21:52] <nisshh> humphreybc: consistency!
[21:52] <humphreybc> I was hoping to see more reviews on Planet Ubuntu
[21:52] <IlyaHaykinson> i think ppl are having trouble finding the manual
[21:52] <nisshh> yea, didnt happen unfortunantly
[21:52] <ChrisWoollard> Maybe somebody should have told slashdot
[21:52] <IlyaHaykinson> the top referrers are expert user blogs
[21:52] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah
[21:53] <humphreybc> lemme find something
[21:53] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: well, its not official
[21:53] <nisshh> like on the ubuntu website official
[21:53] <humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-ubuntu-manual-future-integration
[21:53] <humphreybc> I think Jono, Mark etc are very interested in whether we can keep up the momentum and continue releasing quality products
[21:53] <humphreybc> a lot of projects die after their first release
[21:54] <IlyaHaykinson> yes, i always thought that the big test for us is not the first version, but the second
[21:54] <semioticrobotic> agreed
[21:54] <humphreybc> Of course, we won't. We won't just continue what we're doing, we'll make it better.
[21:54] <thorwil> and then it will be the 3rd
[21:54] <semioticrobotic> the sophomore release is any group's achilles heel
[21:54] <humphreybc> Anyway, IlyaHaykinson, there are some ideas for better integration with Ubuntu to raise our profile a bit, and get more targeted readers
[21:54] <nisshh> humphreybc: expand our horizons :)
[21:54] <ChrisWoollard> What is a sophomore release?
[21:55] <nisshh> a what?
[21:55] <synergetic> ChrisWoollard: 2nd
[21:55] <nisshh> oh, hehe
[21:55] <IlyaHaykinson> nod. i'm not too concerned for now. i am sure that as we continue to deliver, we'll have a lot more opportunities open up to integrate closer.
[21:55] <humphreybc> As a side note, anyone who has more ideas on ways to improve our visibility for our *target audience* - add them to that blueprint whiteboard or email me
[21:55] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: pretty much. Jono and Mark are very excited to see what we have lined up for this cycle
[21:56] <humphreybc> And if we prove ourselves for Maverick, I see no reason why we shouldn't become more tightly integrated with Ubuntu itself
[21:56] <nisshh> exactly
[21:56] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: totally agreed.
[21:56] <humphreybc> What about Lucid feedback from a team point of view? Communication, meetings, organization, structure?
[21:57] <ubuntujenkins> my parents like the manual
[21:57] <IlyaHaykinson> i think we had issues with writers & editors in that we assigned things to people who didn't prove they could deliver.
[21:57] <nisshh> ubuntujenkins: so do mine but they then said: "so whats it for then?"
[21:57] <thorwil> humphreybc: excellent communication, except for meetings that are too long ;)
[21:57] <ubuntujenkins> we need more people to hang out in irc to help some times we are all asleep and there is no one to help
[21:57] <IlyaHaykinson> this resulted in long delays as we waited for them to surface, and then a scramble to reassign the chapters.
[21:58] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Right. Any ideas how we could get quality authors/editors with enough time?
[21:58] <ChrisWoollard> Is there a list of people anywhere on the website detailing who is responsible for what?
[21:58] <ubuntujenkins> nisshh: my parents use ubuntu
[21:58] <semioticrobotic> +1 IlyaHaykinson
[21:58] <IlyaHaykinson> i recommend that in the future, we only assign non-critical parts to newbies, until they can show their dedication.
[21:58] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: check the Contributors page on ubuntu-manual.org
[21:58] <IlyaHaykinson> i.e. make some commits.
[21:58] <Red_HamsterX> Which channels, ubuntujenkins?
[21:58] <nisshh> dont forget we dud start this project half way through through the last cycle
[21:58] <Red_HamsterX> I like answering random questions.
[21:58] <semioticrobotic> having come to the project a bit late, I struggled to understand precisely who was writing what, and who was active
[21:58] <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: #ubuntu-manual
[21:58] <ChrisWoollard> Fair point. forgot about that
[21:58] <humphreybc> Yes, the writing part of last cycle was a bit of a mess
[21:58] <nisshh> ubuntujenkins: yea, mine arent even computer literate...
[21:59] <humphreybc> Hopefully we should be a bit better off this cycle considering we actually have a team in place now - whereas last cycle we had to build up our team WHILE trying to get a release out.
[21:59] <humphreybc> Although I am certainly not happy with our infrastructure as it is, it can be a lot better, a lot easier
[21:59] <godbyk> I'm sure we'll have some turnover in authors/editors/translators/etc., too.
[21:59] <nisshh> yea, we have laid the groundwork
[21:59] <humphreybc> I think the easier we make it for people to help, the more people will be interested in helping
[22:00] <nisshh> this cycle will certainly be interesting
[22:00] <c7p> humphreybc: +1
[22:00] <humphreybc> One of the things I am interested in would be having some sort of web based editor
[22:00] <nisshh> for latex?
[22:00] <humphreybc> that's live, collaborative, stuff is stored on the web instead of using bzr so we don't have crazy merges
[22:00] <humphreybc> nisshh: yes, the backend would be latex, but the frontend would be rich text
[22:00] <ChrisWoollard> That sound tricky
[22:01] <humphreybc> basically like etherpad, but if you highlighted something and hit bold, the backend would magically add in \textbf{text} around what you've highlighted
[22:01] <humphreybc> very tricky, yes
[22:01] <daker> great idea humphreybc
[22:01] <humphreybc> But it would be an incredibly useful tool
[22:01] <Red_HamsterX> What about a variant of a wiki engine, customized to output generic XML instead of XHTML?
[22:01] <nisshh> it would also crap out the server if you did real-time html to latex
[22:01] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: finding the right tools for that might be difficult; etherpad is compeltely open to anyone, while Google Docs on our domain is restricted to those with adminitrator-approved accounts
[22:01] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't think we need realtime editing.
[22:02] <humphreybc> Etherpad would be nice to fiddle with but I think it would be really messy to hack it to the way we want
[22:02] <IlyaHaykinson> most of our editing and writing is spread over a large manual
[22:02] <daker> IlyaHaykinson, +1
[22:02] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: +1
[22:02] <nisshh> humphreybc: also dont forget that for every app we create for the project, thats an extra app we have to constantly maintain
[22:02] <humphreybc> nisshh: that's a good point
[22:02] <humphreybc> I'm hoping that as we create apps, more people will use them from other projects and help us maintain them
[22:02] <ChrisWoollard> Is that then distracting from the main manual
[22:02] <IlyaHaykinson> plus, well, etherpad always exists if we need to use it on a one-off basis.
[22:02] <daker> nisshh, that's why iam here
[22:03] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: well, it's important to remember we don't just make manuals
[22:03] <thorwil> humphreybc: such a tool would be awesome, but would need several dedicated developers and should happen outside
[22:03] <nisshh> daker: yep
[22:03] <IlyaHaykinson> i think developing the website is going to be a big enough project.
[22:03] <humphreybc> right
[22:03] <IlyaHaykinson> no need to complicate things with a really difficult editor.
[22:03] <humphreybc> so some of the stuff we write for the website feedback widget could be used in our thingy
[22:03] <ChrisWoollard> humphreybc: i don't disagree with that
[22:03] <humphreybc> I'm not saying we need this editor asap
[22:03] <nisshh> what a nightmare that would be!
[22:03] <humphreybc> it's not even on the agenda
[22:03] <humphreybc> it's just an idea i have that we should think about
[22:04] <semioticrobotic> an easier way to edit files would certainly lower barriers to entry
[22:04] <ChrisWoollard> Speaking of the agenda. Where are we?
[22:04] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: totally, and that's one of our principles
[22:04] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: feedback from lucid
[22:04] <nisshh> gedit is easy enough i think
[22:04] <humphreybc> okay
[22:04] <Red_HamsterX> Simple web-based zvn engine?
[22:04] <Red_HamsterX> svn*
[22:04] <nisshh> its latex thats confusing people
[22:04] <Red_HamsterX> As a starting point.
[22:04] <humphreybc> so, I reckon we should work hard on translations (that's a strong point for us) and make it easier for translators
[22:04] <semioticrobotic> nisshh: Gedit is easy, yes -- it's everything else (launchpad, bzr, etc.)
[22:05] <humphreybc> And I have no idea how we're going to handle the translations for *two* manuals this cycle.
[22:05] <nisshh> semioticrobotic: yea
[22:05] <humphreybc> For Lucid 2nd edition, I would rather we take stuff OUT than add more content
[22:06] <humphreybc> otherwise translations are going to never happen
[22:06] <nisshh> humphreybc: why dont we just allow the translator in AFTER we have done ALL major edits
[22:06] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: we can comment out some stuff for e2, but we did that during the superedit and made some pretty hearty cuts
[22:06] <Red_HamsterX> Or even our own version-management thing, kinda similar to what we're doing for the next Quickshot iteration: users submit patches and someone has to approve them, applying LaTeX fixes at the same time.
[22:06] <nisshh> so after writing freeze
[22:06] <Red_HamsterX> All in a web interface.
[22:06] <godbyk> Some recent feedback: http://shanefagan.com/2010/05/04/ubuntu-manual-review/ and http://www.mdke.org/?p=102
[22:06] <ChrisWoollard> How long before we get the first batch of translations for e1 out?
[22:06] <humphreybc> unfortunately, we just don't have enough time in a 6 month cycle to have 200 pages of content in enough languages
[22:07] <humphreybc> So I think we'll have to do rolling releases of translations
[22:07] <synergetic> nisshh: have people tried LyX for the ubuntu manual? how well does that work with any custom commands?
[22:07] <humphreybc> as they're finished, they get released
[22:07] <c7p> it took about 1 month and a week for as to translate the manual and review it
[22:07] <c7p> us*
[22:07] <humphreybc> There's the risk that a language won't be finished for, say, 10.04 until 10.10 is out, which would be pointless
[22:07] <nisshh> synergetic: whats LyX?
[22:07] <humphreybc> because by the time the language is done, the content will be obsolete
[22:07] <synergetic> nisshh: a GUI LaTeX editor
[22:07] <dutchie> synergetic: lyx is evil
[22:07] <godbyk> synergetic: you have to set up a special file to get lyx to work with our stuff -- and I'm not sure if we can get it to do everything we need in a GUI/WYSIWYM way.
[22:08] <humphreybc> c7p: really, that short amount of time? you guys must have worked hard!
[22:08] <raffaele> I think thatI think that we should not add too much material because the translations already lagging behind will be charged more.
[22:08] <nisshh> synergetic: yea, i remember seeing a few listed in software center
[22:08] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, once again, let's shelve format discussions for now.
[22:08] <humphreybc> haha
[22:08] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: +1
[22:08] <dutchie> IlyaHaykinson: we'll have to takle them at some point
[22:08] <IlyaHaykinson> yes; can be discussed offline
[22:08] <synergetic> dutchie: i completely agree with you - but I do all my coursework in LaTeX and a large number of my fellow students prefer LyX to any other editor. These fellow students tend to be ones needing to use LaTeX but afraid of non-GUI interfaces
[22:08] <c7p> humphreybc: yeah :) but it worth it
[22:08] <humphreybc> alright
[22:08] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Research!
[22:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Research!
[22:09] <nisshh> wow, ok i think its next topic time!
[22:09] <humphreybc> We need to figure out what we actually need to have in our manual
[22:09] <humphreybc> what the most important parts are, what parts no one ever needs
[22:09] <nisshh> humphreybc: bit late isnt it?
[22:09] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, so here's what i think on this
[22:09] <nisshh> for lucid anyway
[22:09] <IlyaHaykinson> a) we need qualitative research
[22:09] <IlyaHaykinson> meaning interviews with users
[22:09] <humphreybc> nisshh: for lucid, yeah
[22:10] <IlyaHaykinson> talking with people, observing them using it
[22:10] <IlyaHaykinson> usability studies, focus groups etc.
[22:10] <IlyaHaykinson> in the technical writing field these are called "audience analysis" and "task analysis" apparently
[22:10] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: diary studies could be useful, too
[22:10] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yes
[22:10] <humphreybc> Can we work with the LoCo and community councils to devise a "Research day" or something, where teams hold events around the world and bring their parents/siblings/etc along to user test Ubuntu and our manual?
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> nono
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> we need mostly professionals to run these
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> and we need fairly few people
[22:11] <nisshh> humphreybc: thats pretty large scale
[22:11] <Red_HamsterX> Suggestion: regular Google searches for blogs that reference the manual, to see what sorts of criticisms are being leveled against it.
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> as long as they're screened correctly
[22:11] <IlyaHaykinson> otherwise we end up leading the user, or asking loaded questions etc
[22:11] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: I have google alerts for that. it emails me each day with a list of sites mentioning our manual.
[22:12] <IlyaHaykinson> so at any rate, i'm going to take the lead on research for now, and will report on some ideas in the next week
[22:12] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: i agree
[22:12] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: sounds great!
[22:12] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yep, good. nisshh, are you interested to help Ilya where he needs it?
[22:12] <IlyaHaykinson> the general outline is a) do qualitative research, b) do some quantitative (surveys) afterwards.
[22:12] <nisshh> sure
[22:12] <nisshh> can do that
[22:12] <humphreybc> awesome
[22:12] <humphreybc> That's great :)
[22:12] <IlyaHaykinson> c) produce a persona or multiple personas
[22:13] <IlyaHaykinson> and d) create a set of recommendations for our content
[22:13] <ChrisWoollard> Is it worth putting an article about it on Linuxtoday.com or something like that?
[22:13] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: shoot me an email somtime about how you do this and ill try and pick it up
[22:13] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: nod, will do.
[22:13] <nisshh> cool
[22:13] <IlyaHaykinson> in general, i estimate we will need 2 months to complete this.
[22:13] <synergetic> humphreybc: many have already done install days and would already know some key areas that should be focussed on. what about creating an ideastorm with topics?
[22:13] <IlyaHaykinson> at the very least.
[22:13] <IlyaHaykinson> which should be ok, because we won't have maverick taking shape until then anyways
[22:14] <nisshh> easy peasy!
[22:14] <humphreybc> synergetic: Good idea. The problem is getting the word out to the right people about such a thing
[22:14] <humphreybc> I'm hoping the learning team can help us here
[22:14] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that sounds like a plan to me
[22:14] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i'll reach out to the learning team then
[22:14] <nisshh> humphreybc: the learning team are always on UF
[22:14] <synergetic> humphreybc: word of mouth. ubuntu planet, jono, have people pass it to other people. there's no one place, really, aside from the ubuntu homepage
[22:15] <humphreybc> synergetic: yep, I'm going to harp at Jono to give us some time on his blog
[22:16] <nisshh> humphreybc: which will go through planet ubuntu
[22:16] <humphreybc> and i think I'll be an ubuntu member soon (yay!) so i'll be able to post on the planet
[22:16] <humphreybc> Expect Planet Ubuntu to be filled with UMP posts in a few weeks!
[22:16] <nisshh> aw cool
[22:16] <humphreybc> Okay
[22:16] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Cleaning up instructions
[22:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Cleaning up instructions
[22:16] <ScottK> Please don't over do it.
[22:16] <nisshh> hehe'
[22:16] <humphreybc> Basically, the stuff on our site at the moment is a bit complicated and daunting
[22:17] <godbyk> ScottK: Sick of us yet? ;-)
[22:17] <c7p> yeah
[22:17] <humphreybc> So, I'll work on simplifying it somewhat. Unfortunately I have exams for Uni coming up next month, and I'll have to start studying for them as soon as I get back from Belgium
[22:17] <ChrisWoollard> Complicated. I thought it was just lacking.
[22:17] <ScottK> Not yet, although a number of things would be easier for the project as a whole if this weren't separate from ubuntu-doc.
[22:17] <humphreybc> Which means I'll be MIA until the second half of June
[22:18] <humphreybc> ScottK: once again, feel free to talk with them. Trust me, I've tried!
[22:19] <humphreybc> okay
[22:19] <humphreybc> cool
[22:19] <humphreybc> now, this is where stuff gets freaky
[22:19] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Crazy content management idea
[22:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Crazy content management idea
[22:20] <c7p> i think the "Become Author" on the site is very misleading
[22:20] <humphreybc> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg/4585064Q
[22:20] <godbyk> c7p: in what way?
[22:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg/4585064Q
[22:20] <humphreybc> what!
[22:20] <humphreybc> bloody copy and paste
[22:20] <humphreybc> sorry
[22:20] <humphreybc> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg
[22:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4585064604_7b6726b632_b.jpg
[22:20] <nisshh> c7p: it should be apply to become a trainee author or something
[22:20] <humphreybc> second link everyone
[22:21] <ubuntujenkins> i don't like the work trainee make them sound like they are doing the tea and coffie
[22:21] <nisshh> hehe, i like the "big f off content pool"
[22:21] <c7p> godbyk, nishh on that section you learn about only about latex compilation and nothing more. there it ends the page!
[22:21] <nisshh> c7p: what are you saying it should include?
[22:21] <godbyk> c7p: ah, right.  yes, we need to add instructions for editing files, committing code, and of courser writing and whatnot.
[22:22] <humphreybc> So this is something the learning team would like to do
[22:22] <nisshh> ah ok!
[22:22] <c7p> godbyk: exactly
[22:22] <humphreybc> And it's something we're working towards
[22:22] <ChrisWoollard> I think if you want to be an auther. you should prove yourself in other areas firts
[22:22] <humphreybc> getting all of our content in one area, and selectively building material into different formats
[22:22] <humphreybc> from the same stuf
[22:23] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: yeah, that would be nice. We should make "being an author" something that people want to aim for?
[22:23] <Red_HamsterX> I have to play for the docs team here: wouldn't it make sense to try to merge our content pool into theirs as much as possible?
[22:23] <nisshh> what? kind of like becoming a MOTU?
[22:23] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: yes, it would
[22:23] <ChrisWoollard> Also not everybody is cut out for writing.
[22:23] <humphreybc> This idea wouldn't work without their help, and the learning team
[22:24] <nisshh> Red_HamsterX: alot of the online docs a seriously outdated
[22:24] <humphreybc> and a heap of other teams
[22:24] <nisshh> are
[22:24] <semioticrobotic> Red_HamsterX: +!
[22:24] <semioticrobotic> er, +1 even
[22:24] <humphreybc> Of course, the docs team would have to meet our quality standards :)
[22:24] <semioticrobotic> well, yes, outdated -- but our fresh crop of writers and editors would infuse a bit more life into them
[22:25] <humphreybc> No tutorials on "how to illegally install M$ fonts" for example
[22:25] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard: i learnt how to do it in two weeks! talk about a crash course in being an author!
[22:25] <Red_HamsterX> nisshh, yes, they are. But if their content were repurposed, as a knowedge base of information, it would greatly add to our legitimacy.
[22:25] <Red_HamsterX> They hold and maintain the content and we publish it for the users.
[22:25] <nisshh> Red_HamsterX: true yea, i agree with that
[22:26] <nisshh> next topic?
[22:26] <Red_HamsterX> Actually, that may well be one of the things Ubuntu sorely needs: a centralized, structured knowledge base.
[22:26] <semioticrobotic> the docs team must also work on areas outside our target user base
[22:26] <semioticrobotic> i.e., advanced stuff, too
[22:27] <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: Exactly. At the moment, learning material is spread out all over the place
[22:27] <humphreybc> it's a real shit show
[22:27] <semioticrobotic> yes, it definitely does
[22:27] <Red_HamsterX> Oh, of course. But then our server manual, or some othe rproject, could harvest whatever they generate.
[22:27] <nisshh> yea
[22:27] <semioticrobotic> so this meeting humphreybc has called is integral
[22:28] <humphreybc> What we're going to have to do is pitch the idea to the docs team, see how it goes. I don't hold high hopes for them wanting to help, to be completely honest.
[22:28] <semioticrobotic> eventually, I see a division of labor that' something like: UMP does beginner-level documentation, Docs Team builds on that and does advanced stuff, and Learning project takes that stuff and spins it into booklets, leaflets, and training seminars
[22:28]  * IlyaHaykinson is dropping off, will review irc logs later.
[22:28] <Red_HamsterX> I don't see them not saying "we accept patches".
[22:28] <humphreybc> And if they don't want to work with us, well, that's their problem. I'm sorry but we're here to try and make Ubuntu documentation rock.
[22:28] <Red_HamsterX> Which is probably enough of an in.
[22:28] <dutchie> humphreybc: you could always try being nice to the docs team ;)
[22:28] <godbyk> see ya, IlyaHaykinson
[22:28] <semioticrobotic> bye IlyaHaykinson
[22:28]  * nisshh has to go soon too, got college in an hour and a half
[22:29] <humphreybc> okay, we should move on
[22:29] <humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lucid translated releases
[22:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid translated releases
[22:29] <humphreybc> godbyk?
[22:29] <godbyk> humphreybc?
[22:29] <humphreybc> translated releases
[22:29] <humphreybc> this is your area of the project :P
[22:29] <godbyk> aha.
[22:30] <godbyk> So for the translated versions of the manual, I think the releases should work in a similar fashion to the original English version.
[22:30] <godbyk> I think that once the translations have been completed and the screenshots have been taken, an editor should be appointed for each translation.
[22:30] <raffaele> Excuse the interruption, but where I can see the logs after the debate?
[22:31] <humphreybc> raffaele: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
[22:31] <raffaele> ok, thank you
[22:31] <godbyk> The editor will work with her translation team to ensure that everything is up to snuff and looks good and will then approve the release.
[22:31] <godbyk> Once the release has been approved, we'll upload it to the site, lulu.com for printed copies, and let humphreybc do his marketing thing.
[22:31] <humphreybc> godbyk, yes, that's the best way to do it. The problem could be finding an editor for each language - here's another reason why we need better communication with the translators
[22:31] <godbyk> Any objections or comments?
[22:31] <nisshh> right, i need to go, i need atleast 30 mins sleep before college today
[22:32] <nisshh> cyas later'
[22:32] <humphreybc> okay nisshh :)
[22:32] <godbyk> See ya, nisshh
[22:32] <humphreybc> thanks for coming!
[22:32] <nisshh> np cya!
[22:32] <semioticrobotic> bye nisshh
[22:32] <c7p> cya nishhh
[22:32] <semioticrobotic> (I'll need to leave in about 10 minutes, too.)
[22:32] <humphreybc> okay
[22:33] <c7p> i think the UMP should have the list of all LoCO teams and their forums
[22:33] <godbyk> Ideally the editors will be folks who are fluent in that language, don't mind diving into a bit of latex, but that haven't been the primary translator.
[22:33] <c7p> for the communication
[22:33] <godbyk> (It's hard to edit your own words.)
[22:33] <humphreybc> c7p: yeah, maybe we can work with the loco directory project or something
[22:33] <humphreybc> godbyk sure
[22:34] <ChrisWoollard> Improve the docs on how to be and editor.
[22:34] <godbyk> We should probably bring back our bug form (or something similar) for the translation teams to receive bug notices in their translations.
[22:34] <humphreybc> Okay, I think the last couple of topics are moot now - we know what we are planning for Maverick, and we can't exactly decide on specific things for Lucid 2nd edition just yet
[22:34] <humphreybc> dutchie: how's that bug form going?
[22:34] <c7p> godbyk: good idea
[22:34] <dutchie> humphreybc: launchpad is a pain
[22:34] <dutchie> actually, no, oauth is a pain
[22:34] <humphreybc> heh
[22:35] <semioticrobotic> where do bug reports fall in the giant crazy workflow schematic?
[22:35] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: they're like rain - they fall everywhere and create gigantic puddles
[22:35] <humphreybc> and erode our infrastructure :P
[22:35] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: ha!  well, that's empirically true, but ...
[22:35] <semioticrobotic> one sec
[22:35] <humphreybc> alright, let's wrap this up! next meeting time?
[22:36] <humphreybc> We can move half of this stuff to the list for further discussion
[22:36] <godbyk> We should probably have meetings a bit more frequently so we can keep them shorter.
[22:36] <ChrisWoollard> Does that mean that eventually half the cliff falls into the sea
[22:36] <humphreybc> weekly meetings?
[22:36] <daker> humphreybc, yes
[22:36] <c7p> humphreybc why not
[22:36] <humphreybc> ChrisWoollard: probably, unless we create a gutter system
[22:36] <humphreybc> okay
[22:36] <humphreybc> what time suits?
[22:36] <humphreybc> 2000?
[22:36] <semioticrobotic> sorry ... anyway, yes, bug reports: they fall all over the place, but we should find an official space for them in thw rokflow
[22:36] <ubuntujenkins> please
[22:36] <godbyk> Shall we go back to our original Saturday time slot?
[22:36] <ubuntujenkins> to the time
[22:36] <c7p> it works for me
[22:36] <ChrisWoollard> 20:00 is good for me
[22:36] <humphreybc> we appear to have a better turnout at this meeting than we did on the weekends
[22:37] <daker> godbyk, +1
[22:37] <humphreybc> Saturday can work, yes
[22:37] <ubuntujenkins> saturady is better
[22:37] <humphreybc> Weekly meetings, every Saturday at 2000 from now on
[22:37] <semioticrobotic> my schedule is so chaotic that any day is as good as another
[22:37] <humphreybc> groovy
[22:37] <ChrisWoollard> saturday is also good
[22:37] <c7p> ok saturday then :)
[22:37] <humphreybc> well thanks for coming guys! I'm going to get up and grab some breakfast, then i'll start firing off mail to the list
[22:38] <humphreybc> #endmeeting
[22:38] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:38.
[22:38] <godbyk> If anyone has any other notes they'd like to make, the pad's here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-meeting-7-5-2010
[22:38] <semioticrobotic> looking forward to more discussion, humphreybc
[22:38] <humphreybc> yup
[22:38] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: me too. This cycle is going to rock.
[22:38] <humphreybc> But we have to keep our heads in the game and maintain focus, we're pushing the limit of what we can achieve in a short amount of time!
[22:39] <dutchie> i wasn't paying attention
[22:39] <dutchie> poke me if i should have been
[22:39] <humphreybc> But that's good, it's better to be busy working on exciting new stuff and be proud when you finish it, rather than being bored fartless in a stagnant project, right?
[22:39] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: it will indeed.  but what you say is true: the worst thing we can do is let our enthusiasm get the better of us and overextend ourselves
[22:39] <humphreybc> dutchie: you probably should have been paying attention :P
[22:39] <dutchie> :P
[22:39] <ubuntujenkins> don't worry dutchie I was doing coursework
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> did i miss much
[22:40] <semioticrobotic> alright friends...I'm off
[22:40] <semioticrobotic> o/
[22:40] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: Indeed. I think we have a very strong team with great people, I'm confident we can do it. We'll need the community's support though, and that's something we haven't had a heap of last cycle. But i'll work on that.
[22:40] <synergetic> night!
[22:40] <c7p> night
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> night semioticrobotic
[22:40] <humphreybc> night Bryan!
[22:40] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: and that's exactly why I think UDS is going to be a watershed moment for the project
[22:40] <semioticrobotic> I wish you the best of luck in belgium
[22:40] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: totally. Thankyou!
[22:41] <semioticrobotic> take care ... all of you!
[22:41] <humphreybc> Also, everyone, have a look at the sessions that are listed and try to remote participate if you can
[22:41]  * semioticrobotic waves
[22:41] <humphreybc> the best place to look would probably be the list that i'm going to
[22:41] <ubuntujenkins> link please
[22:41] <humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~humphreybc
[22:41] <humphreybc> I'm going to all the documentation related ones
[22:42]  * ubuntujenkins will try but i have a busy month at the moment
[22:42] <humphreybc> the full list is quite long
[22:42] <humphreybc> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-m
[22:42]  * dutchie redirects people back to #ubuntu-manual
[22:42] <humphreybc> Yes, I also have a very busy month, next month too. I have to do more uni work
[22:43] <humphreybc> Good meeting team! As you were ;)
[23:03] <bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: poke =)
[23:04] <Technoviking> sorry on the phone
[23:04] <jdong> yay!
[23:04] <bodhi_zazen> NP, we can wait Technoviking
[23:04] <jdong> we have quorum then :)
[23:04] <Technoviking> off now
[23:04] <bodhi_zazen> Shall we start ?
[23:04] <jdong> sure
[23:05] <bapoumba> ok
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> do we wish to use mootbot ?
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> makes it a bit easier to read the irc logs =)
[23:05] <bapoumba> +1
[23:05] <jdong> no objection here!
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
[23:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:05. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
[23:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[23:06] <bodhi_zazen> {TOPIC} UF Games section
[23:06] <MootBot> New Topic: {TOPIC} UF Games section
[23:06] <bapoumba> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[23:06] <bodhi_zazen> AI has made some excellent suggestions
[23:07] <bodhi_zazen> I think for the most part we can adapt these changes, but I am not sure if UG or matthew prefer to make such changes
[23:07] <bodhi_zazen> If not, I would be willing to make the changes, although I would need to consult with AI again as I do not recall the specifics
[23:08] <Technoviking> I'm fine with AI suggestions
[23:08] <jdong> I don't recall if UG made an opinion on the issue yet
[23:08] <jdong> but I'm also fine with AI's suggestions
[23:08] <bodhi_zazen> No, not yet
[23:08] <jdong> but shoot an email off to the list for any 11th hour objections
[23:08] <Technoviking> useless people think a Wine and Emulator prefix tag would work as well
[23:08] <bodhi_zazen> I do not recall UG or matthew expressing an opinion either way
[23:09] <bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: I am willing to go with what AI feels is best, he seems quite versed with the issues
[23:09] <bodhi_zazen> Personally I do not game much so I do not have strong feelings either way
[23:09] <bapoumba> same here
[23:10] <jdong> I trust in AI's judgement given his long track record in managing the gaming section
[23:10] <bapoumba> Ai knows what would suit the games category best
[23:10] <bodhi_zazen> How about if we post on the ML asking for UG and matthew to comment ?
[23:10] <bapoumba> +1
[23:10] <Technoviking> +1
[23:10] <jdong> +1
[23:11] <jdong> a little bit of a tangent point....
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED] Post on ML as above ^^
[23:11] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Post on ML as above ^^
[23:11] <jdong> I have slight concerns/worries with how we're managing action items?
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> Calvin Smith, you here ?
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> how so jdong ?
[23:11] <jdong> do we have a database of them to see if we carried through?
[23:11] <jdong> e.g. are we forgetting to do things we say we'll do?
[23:11] <bodhi_zazen> No
[23:12] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I hope that is how Mootbot can help
[23:12] <jdong> that's what made me think of this
[23:12] <bodhi_zazen> Anyone willing to post to the ML now ?
[23:12] <jdong> I like how the Tech Board and DMB have their ACTION item reviews every meeting
[23:12] <bodhi_zazen> Calvin / Toxic Mite going twice
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> jdong: we can do that, I would suggest using our agenda page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> ?
[23:13] <jdong> bodhi_zazen: big +1
[23:13] <bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, I can post, but not now
[23:13] <jdong> at the end of the meeting add all action items to the next agenda.
[23:13] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..
[23:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  - Calvin Smith - KiwiNZ's attitude to things is becoming worrying..
[23:14] <bodhi_zazen> in the absence of Calvin I suggest we table this item
[23:14] <bapoumba> +1
[23:14] <bapoumba> he needs to show up
[23:14] <bodhi_zazen> any other comments ?
[23:15] <bapoumba> nope
[23:15] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] - bapoumba New Staff Process
[23:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  - bapoumba New Staff Process
[23:15] <bodhi_zazen> bapoumba: you're up =)
[23:15] <bapoumba> We have been extensively discussing this point on the FC ml
[23:15] <bapoumba> we would like to document the process
[23:16] <bapoumba> we came up with guidelines we can post in FFH for ex
[23:16] <bapoumba> do you want them here ?
[23:17] <bodhi_zazen> your guidelines / suggestions were excellent bapoumba , I think you notified the other staff as well, on the forums if I recall.
[23:17] <bapoumba> yes, in the Staff area
[23:17] <jdong> do we have a public link to it for the posterity of the meeting logs?
[23:17] <bapoumba> err, no :)
[23:17] <bodhi_zazen> No jdong , but we can post a link anyways =)
[23:18] <jdong> hehe okay :)
[23:18] <jdong> works for me ;-)
[23:18] <bapoumba> basically bodhi_zazen and I would take over this project
[23:18] <bodhi_zazen> looking
[23:18] <bapoumba> matthew will mentor us
[23:19] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1463206
[23:19] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1463206
[23:19] <jdong> I've watched over the discussions on the list and am happy with what I saw
[23:19] <bapoumba> all the rest has already been said in several threads in FFH
[23:19] <bapoumba> quite some time ago
[23:20] <bapoumba> where can I upload the text ? Cannot recall
[23:20] <bodhi_zazen> Any further comments, if I recall we were just wanting to make people outside of the FC aware of the changes
[23:20] <bodhi_zazen> upload what text bapoumba ?
[23:20] <bapoumba> we'll make it public on the forums if everyone agrees
[23:20] <bapoumba> the Staff process
[23:20] <bapoumba> pastebin or something ?
[23:21] <bodhi_zazen> +1 pastebin
[23:21] <drubin> o/ question/comment plz
[23:21] <bodhi_zazen> sec ...
[23:21] <bodhi_zazen> go drubin
[23:21] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK] http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN
[23:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/TDDRPTqN
[23:21] <drubin> bodhi_zazen bapoumba: I rather like the idea of staffing process to be vague... it means there aren't a fixed set of requirements that people try and work towards but rather good people get the roles
[23:22] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[23:22] <bapoumba> http://pastebin.com/zQ8cp11j
[23:22] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.com/zQ8cp11j
[23:22] <drubin> I do think that not knowing is what made the great people show up from the average people
[23:22] <bapoumba> does that work on your end ?
[23:22] <bodhi_zazen> I think posting some guidelines is "OK" , we will leave squiggle room =)
[23:23] <bapoumba> drubin, we often have questions about it
[23:23] <bodhi_zazen> yes bapoumba , but you were too slow =)
[23:23] <jdong> drubin: it is interesting to hear someone advocating the opacity. We've traditionally received a lot of complaints about the black box nature
[23:23] <drubin> bodhi_zazen: That list is purse "squiggle" room. it was pretty much FC makes dession.
[23:23] <jdong> drubin: I don't think the new process is a list of requirements for how to be a staff member though.
[23:23] <drubin> either way I am going to keep quiet now hehe
[23:23] <bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, I'm always slow :)
[23:23] <jdong> no, please feel free to comment!
[23:23] <bodhi_zazen> I think a FAQ or sticky is in order as we receive enough questions about the topic
[23:23] <drubin> jdong: Yes but I hadn't seen the link before
[23:24] <drubin> Can I add something to the agenda before the end of the meeting since I am here and talking
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> If we have time drubin
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> Any other comments on the "New Staff Process" ?
[23:24] <jdong> drubin: even if the procedure is "the FC looks at everyone case-by-case", we'd like to say that formally. Right now the procedure seems to be "Look under your seat for your golden ticket!"
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> I am not sure we need to take action ...
[23:24] <jdong> formal documentation is good :)
[23:25] <bodhi_zazen> LeoArias poke =)
[23:25] <elopio> I'm Leo Arias :)
[23:25] <elopio> hello
[23:25] <bodhi_zazen> Excellent !
[23:25] <bodhi_zazen> TY for coming
[23:25] <bapoumba> hello elopio
[23:25] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Central America forum
[23:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Central America forum
[23:25] <elopio> thanks to you.
[23:26] <elopio> we'll our idea is to use only one forum for all central american locos.
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> I would be OK with that
[23:26] <elopio> currently we have some forums in ubuntuforums.org, and forums in the websites of the locos.
[23:26] <jdong> ah
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> Unless there is a LOCO that needs a specific forum (ie high traffic)
[23:26] <bapoumba> elopio, do all the LoCo admins agree ?
[23:27] <elopio> we decided to use ubuntuforums in a meeting last year.
[23:27] <jdong> is "we" a unanimous (err bapoumba just mentioned that)
[23:27] <elopio> I sent an email to all ubuntuforums and to the mailing list.
[23:27] <elopio> bapoumba, jdong, only Honduras wants to keep the forum
[23:27] <bapoumba> elopio, their own you mean ?
[23:27] <elopio> so, we have http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=281 http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=262 and http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=374
[23:28] <jdong> elopio: ok, so of the forums that wish to merge, their owners have all expressed agreement, correct?
[23:28] <elopio> those are Costa Rica, Panamá and El Salvador, and should be closed. Or I don't know what's the procedure.
[23:29] <elopio> bapoumba, I mean that Honduras ( http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=369 ) has to be kept
[23:29] <jdong> (by owners, I mean leadership team and consistutents)
[23:29] <bodhi_zazen> elopio: I suggest you post a sticky / notice in each of those forums and allow public comment X 1 month -> then we can merge if there are no major objections ?
[23:29] <bapoumba> would not it be strange that only Honduras keep their own forums ?
[23:30] <bodhi_zazen> depends on the size / volume of traffic and other issues I suppose
[23:30] <elopio> jdong, all the loco leaders are in the ubuntu-centroamerica launchpad team
[23:30] <jdong> bapoumba: if it's because the other locos wanted to merge, but Hondoras did not wish to do so, I don't feel it's strange.
[23:30] <elopio> I posted there: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-centroamerica/msg00075.html
[23:30] <bapoumba> I suggest elopio talks with Joe
[23:30] <elopio> everyone, but Honduras agreed on the merge.
[23:30] <jdong> bapoumba: my only concern is after the fact, members of the merged communities would be upset
[23:30] <elopio> ok, wait a second so I can answer all your questions... :)
[23:30] <jdong> which bodhi's suggestion addresses
[23:30] <bapoumba> jdong, yes
[23:31] <bapoumba> he talks with Joe, and then we talk again
[23:31] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, I posted on the forums two weeks ago
[23:31] <bodhi_zazen> linky elopio ?
[23:31] <jdong> are there any objections by users on any of those forum topics?
[23:31] <elopio> and it's almost the last post in all the forums :) They are abandoned, that's why we want to join efforts.
[23:32] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, links comming...
[23:32] <bodhi_zazen> I am just suggesting *some* public comment time, otherwise people complain it changed without notice ...
[23:32] <elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460217
[23:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460217
[23:32] <elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460213
[23:32] <Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: +1
[23:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460213
[23:32] <elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460211
[23:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460211
[23:32] <elopio> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460208
[23:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1460208
[23:32] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, I understand. But I would be bad to have to wait even more.
[23:33] <bodhi_zazen> Can you sticky those ? And remove the other stickies for the moment ?
[23:33] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, can I stick a post if I'm not the admin?
[23:33] <bodhi_zazen> It certainly appears you have done the footwork , and I appreciate that
[23:33] <bodhi_zazen> I think so , the LoCo mods should be able to, if no, PM an admin =)
[23:33] <forumsmatthew> sorry I'm so late--I had to pick up the kids from school
[23:34] <dmizer> bodhi_zazen ... looking at the forum activity in the ca locos, it doesn't look like they need to be stickied ;)
[23:34] <elopio> Ok, I'll try to make them sticky.
[23:34] <elopio> the other problem is that those forums where open a long time ago. I'm from costa rica, and I don't know where to find the guy that opened our forum. It's missing in action.
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> I would +1 a commentary period or merging the forms , either way is "OK" with me
[23:35] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, would you agree on a week?
[23:35] <elopio> the message has been there for two weeks already.
[23:35] <elopio> and we have decided this a year ago :D
[23:35] <jdong> I'd +1 a commentary period and then merging
[23:35] <elopio> it's about time to take action.
[23:35] <jdong> well two weeks vs 1 year is a big difference
[23:35] <jdong> action WILL be taken, there's no need to be too hasty.
[23:35] <elopio> jaja, ok ok.
[23:35] <elopio> 2 weeks?
[23:36] <jdong> sounds reasonable to me
[23:36] <Technoviking> sometime before the next FC meeting for sure
[23:36] <bodhi_zazen> Any other comments ?
[23:36] <elopio> great. And whom should I contact to open the new forum and close the other 3?
[23:36] <bapoumba> joeb
[23:36] <forumsmatthew> Okay, I just got caught up. I think a commentary period and merge sounds good +1
[23:36] <bodhi_zazen> [ACTION] Merge central america forums
[23:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Merge central america forums
[23:37]  * elopio takes note of joeb
[23:37] <elopio> cool. Thanks! :)
[23:37] <bapoumba> elopio, joeb4 something :)
[23:37] <drubin> elopio: Joeb454
[23:37] <Technoviking> I would like to ping the LC to keep them in the loop on this
[23:37] <bapoumba> thanks drubin !
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> cchhrriiss121212 poke !
[23:38] <bapoumba> AutoStatic ping
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> BslBryan ping
[23:39] <elopio> what's the LC Technoviking?
[23:39] <Technoviking> elopio: Loco Council
[23:39] <bodhi_zazen> drubin: mentioned a potential add on agenda item if there is time ...
[23:39] <drubin> bodhi_zazen: it is on there
[23:39] <elopio> Technoviking, sure, that would be nice. I'll add it to the agenda for their next meeting.
[23:40] <Technoviking> elopio: A quick note to there mailing list would probably do
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Multimedia Production Name Change
[23:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Multimedia Production Name Change
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> I think this would need to be discussed further
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430283
[23:40] <MootBot> LINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1430283
[23:41] <bapoumba> without them here, we should wait
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:41] <elopio> that sound's better. No meeting. Well, I'm leaving. Thanks for your time and support. Good luck
[23:41] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional comments ?
[23:41] <jdong> +1, no additional comments here
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> bapoumba: It at least is easy to find in the logs if I add it as a [TOPIC]
[23:41] <forumsmatthew> I want to comment briefly on one thing that I missed by being late
[23:41] <forumsmatthew> it is quick
[23:41] <bapoumba> please :)
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] LoCo moderator suggestions.
[23:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  LoCo moderator suggestions.
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> I am in favor of the new staff process we have discussed on the list
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> ...just wanted to be on the record
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> :)
[23:42] <bapoumba> forumsmatthew, we have not voted
[23:42] <bapoumba> maybe we should ?
[23:42] <bapoumba> +1 ^^
[23:43] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> I suggest we table the LoCo mod suggestions as well ?
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> then vote on new staff process ?
[23:43] <bapoumba> okay
[23:43] <forumsmatthew> bodhi_zazen, agreed
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> Any other comments on LOCO mods ?
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Adopt New Staff Process
[23:43] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Adopt New Staff Process.
[23:43] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[23:43] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[23:44] <bapoumba> +1
[23:44] <MootBot> +1 received from bapoumba. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[23:44] <Technoviking> +1
[23:44] <MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:44] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:44] <MootBot> +1 received from forumsmatthew. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:44] <bapoumba> ping jdong :p
[23:44] <bodhi_zazen> +0
[23:44] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:45]  * bodhi_zazen does not feel comfortable voting for self ;P
[23:45] <bapoumba> me neither but meh
[23:45] <jdong> bapoumba: sorry
[23:45] <jdong> +1
[23:45] <MootBot> +1 received from jdong. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> + 1 to bapoumba =)
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
[23:45] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional issues , late additions to the agenda ?
[23:46] <bapoumba> drubin ?
[23:46] <elopio> me again :)
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> OK elopio =)
[23:46] <drubin> bapoumba: My topic?
[23:46] <drubin> elopio: can go first
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> How about drubin , then elopio ?
[23:46] <bapoumba> drubin, yup, we are done with the Agenda
[23:47] <elopio> I can't mark the posts as sticky. I could probably talk to the admins of panamá and el salvador. But the costa rican one is going to be imposible.
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> drubin: asked earlier
[23:47] <elopio> just to let you know...
[23:47] <bapoumba> elopio, please report them
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> elopio: if you send me a PM on the forums, w/ a link to posts, I will do it
[23:47] <bapoumba> with a note
[23:47] <dmizer> elopio: send me a pm in the forums and i will sticky them.
[23:47] <drubin> I just wanted to bring it to your attention that the sticky issue is getting well very sticky
[23:47] <elopio> bodhi_zazen, cool
[23:47] <elopio> will do it.
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> TY
[23:47] <drubin> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies
[23:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=48 has 6 stickies
[23:47] <elopio> is you user bodhi_zazen too?
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> elopio: bodhi.zazen
[23:48]  * drubin is confused and waits
[23:48]  * elopio goes to send pms
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> drubin: yep, we have informally reviewed some stickies
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> anyone in particular you think should be removed ?
[23:48] <bapoumba> drubin, we go down the stickies from time to time
[23:48] <drubin> bodhi_zazen: Just wanted to suggest please please merging them.
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> PM me links and I will discuss w/ staff
[23:49] <drubin> No worries. not going to push any thing just please stop making stickies hehe
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> Sounds reasonable drubin
[23:49]  * forumsmatthew goes to make a sticky about too many stickies /joke
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> I have 2 stickies in the works, but will remove 1 ...
[23:50] <bodhi_zazen> They are 4 the security section, HIDS and NIDS
[23:50] <bodhi_zazen> I have posted for comments / review by from staff, and am currently procrastinating ...
[23:50] <drubin> bodhi_zazen: Not a big deal and I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't have to be here any way
[23:50] <bodhi_zazen> Actually I have worked on making (openvz) templates for Ubuntu 10.04 , lol
[23:51] <bapoumba> bodhi_zazen, it's foreign language to me :)
[23:51] <bodhi_zazen> http://download.openvz.org/template/precreated/contrib/
[23:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://download.openvz.org/template/precreated/contrib/
[23:51] <bodhi_zazen> toys bapoumba , VPS
[23:52] <bodhi_zazen> end meeting then ?
[23:53] <bodhi_zazen> thank you all for coming
[23:53] <forumsmatthew> thank you all!
[23:53]  * dmizer waves
[23:53] <bapoumba> Thanks
[23:53]  * bapoumba gets uo in less than 5 hours
[23:53] <jdong> awesome
[23:53] <jdong> sounds like my schedule these days
[23:53] <jdong> yay end of term hell!
[23:54] <forumsmatthew> I just finished my last project. :)
[23:54] <jdong> awesome!
[23:54]  * jdong is jealous
[23:54] <bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
[23:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:54.
[23:54] <bodhi_zazen> new amp forumsmatthew ?
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> I wish...classes
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> and a revision of The Official Ubuntu Book
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> and some videos
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> and...more
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> April nearly killed me
[23:55] <jdong> wow
[23:56] <forumsmatthew> I did do a retube and bias of the amp you saw in the picture...
[23:56] <bodhi_zazen> sweet forumsmatthew
[23:57] <dmizer> forumsmatthew: it sounds beautiful.
[23:57] <forumsmatthew> thank you!
[23:57] <bodhi_zazen> I am considering posting a video of my girls playing Violin, assuming the staff is no bored w/ family pic
[23:57] <forumsmatthew> I love family pics
[23:57]  * bodhi_zazen is a proud father
[23:57] <bapoumba> +1
[23:57] <bapoumba> Night everyone!
[23:57] <bodhi_zazen> night bapoumba
[23:57] <forumsmatthew> I have to run as well. Bye, all!!
[23:58] <bodhi_zazen> Me as well ...