=== Andre_Gondim-afk is now known as Andre_Gondim === starcraftman is now known as starcraft === starcraft is now known as starcraftman [11:49] hallo? [13:00] hello all [13:00] Ayatana UX team, assemble? [13:01] hola [13:01] o/ [13:01] hello hello [13:01] Greetings! [13:01] mpt's not here yet [13:01] Hey there [13:01] tut tut [13:01] he's in Brussels [13:01] if he doesn't show up in 5 minutes then we'll just start without him, that sound okay? [13:01] ha! [13:01] humphreybc: i think he forgot , just pinged him [13:01] :-) [13:01] Hello :) [13:01] now _that_ is what I call timing [13:02] :) [13:02] good work Scotty [13:02] I'll deny any accusation of forgetting [13:02] ;) [13:02] lol [13:02] okay, shall we begin? [13:02] let's [13:02] indeed [13:02] let us :) [13:02] So who's here? [13:02] ! [13:02] i'm not [13:03] bonjour, mpt [13:03] godbyk is also here [13:03] aysiu here. My first IRC ever. [13:03] Hi aysiu, welcome, and thanks for being up at this hour [13:03] mpt_: are ye going to use mootbot? [13:03] 5:00 am here [13:03] aysiu, first ever? wow [13:03] aysiu: oh god! [13:03] humphreybc, I don't know how to do that, do you? [13:03] mpt_: sure [13:03] #startmeeting [13:03] Meeting started at 07:03. The chair is humphreybc. [13:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [13:04] mpt_: it makes me the chair though, just tell me what topics you'd like me to set [13:04] ok [13:04] Unfortunately my Canonical compadres are busy at this design sprint thingy [13:04] Introductions? [13:04] yes, introductions [13:04] [TOPIC] Introductions! [13:04] New Topic: Introductions! [13:05] aysiu: after you :) [13:05] Ubuntu user for five years. [13:05] New to IRC, as you all know now. [13:05] I live in California and work in a school in the admission office. [13:06] And I help out on the Ubuntu Forums occasionally as a moderator. [13:06] aysiu: awesome :) [13:06] I invited aysiu to help with communication between designers and users on the forums [13:06] mpt_: cool [13:07] mpt_, that's gonna help a lot [13:07] So, for everyone else [13:07] wers: after you! [13:07] How about we just compose two or three sentences and post them all at once. That way we don't need to wait for anyone. [13:07] mpt_: that sounds good [13:07] Just who you are, where you're from, what your area of interest is. [13:08] I'm Allan Caeg from Philippines. 20. Psych grad. UX Specialist currently at work. [13:08] it's 8pm here. doing overtime. i actually have work to do but i cant miss this. hehe [13:08] I'm Matthew Thomas, I work on Canonical's Design team as an interface designer, and I'm interested in encouraging more distributed design and UX activities. [13:08] My name is Kevin Godby. I'm currently a PhD student at Iowa State University in the human-computer interaction program (with a background in psychology and computer science). I'm currently procrastinating on my dissertation. [13:09] My name is Benjamin Humphrey and I'm a 19 year old New Zealander and I've been using Ubuntu for about a year. I'm studying computer science in Dunedin at Otago University. My involvement in Ubuntu comprises of founding/leading the Ubuntu Manual project, helping with documentation and offering design feedback and mockups for various things. [13:09] i'm a visual and wannabe interaction designer (freelance). germany, not far away from the netherlands. have been busy in the ubuntu-artwork realm and lately working with humphreybc and godbyk on the ubuntu manual, where i'm responsible for the title page [13:09] hi mgunes, I was just wondering if you were going to make it :-) [13:09] we're doing introductions [13:09] my name's Allan Day, i'm a research student based in the uk. i'm a volunteer for the gnome project. i mainly work on interface design and usability stuff [13:10] hi mpt; I seem to have connection problems (I'm at a cafe). I'll try to reconnect and catch up with you if I drop again. [13:10] ok [13:10] Is that everyone? [13:10] Hi, I'm Vishnoo , been using ubuntu for a while .. as a hobby i'v become one of the pixel pushers , doing icons around the desktop. You'd often find me working on Humanity icons or shepherding papercut bugs. Other themes I'v worked on are the Breathe icons , notify-osd , ubuntu-mono , and recently for upstream gnome-icon , gnome-icon-symbolic too.. for apps like empathy , poppler , software center. When I'm bored of doing icons, I nit-pick on mpt's [13:10] designs or doing some mockups . [13:10] cool [13:10] great [13:10] I think that's everyone now [13:11] apart from Murat [13:11] Hi, I'm Loong Jin, a MOTU and maintainer of Banshee in Debian, a 2nd year computer engineering student in singapore. [13:11] :) [13:11] So, next topic: What this team is for [13:11] [TOPIC] What are ya'll here for? [13:11] New Topic: What are ya'll here for? [13:11] I have been chatting with Jono Bacon, Master of Community about this [13:12] Particularly the process for people joining etc [13:13] I want to avoid as much bureaucracy as possible, because (a) we don't have any authority so process isn't as important, and (b) the sort of people who are good at UX stuff are often really busy and don't want to get involved in lots of process [13:13] mpt_: +1 Bureaucracy = nothing gets done. [13:13] I've sent him a proposed charter, which is really simple, and once he's reviewed it I'll send it out to all of you [13:14] I'm Murat Gunes. I'm currently working as a freelance web / interactive designer, and have studied fine arts and visual design. My Ubuntu involvement has consisted mostly of bug triage and community support / moderation for the past few years. I've digested an unhealthy amount of of UX / Interaction design / HCI theory lately, and am looking to put things into practice with this team. [13:14] mpt_: what's the rest of the design team's involvement in this? [13:14] thanks mgunes [13:14] The really short version is that we're not gatekeepers, we're not making design decisions, we're just trying to oil the wheels and encourage design and UX activities. [13:14] Those of you who are subscribed to the ayatana@ mailing list will have seen that we have no shortage of interesting ideas. [13:15] mpt_: I think that's an understatement [13:15] i thought it was no shortage of noise, actually ;) [13:15] thorwil: yeah, absolutely [13:15] What we do have a shortage of is things like wireframes, implementable mini-specifications, user testing, user research, that sort of thing. [13:15] yep [13:15] And focus. A shortage of focus. :-) [13:15] mpt_: So, less random ideas and noise, more useful stuff? [13:16] right [13:16] groovy [13:16] 30~40 mails a day is too much to read :s [13:16] So, with that in mind ... next topic: What activities we could set up [13:17] vish: I know, I have almost stopped reading them now. [13:17] Hmm [13:17] yeah. good thing gmail has threads [13:17] vish++ [13:18] (humphreybc, that's your cue;-) [13:18] * humphreybc is thinking [13:18] humphreybc: change topic [13:18] ;p [13:18] So, what we want to do is encourage *good* design, right [13:18] [TOPIC] What activities we could set up, yes yes [13:18] New Topic: What activities we could set up, yes yes [13:18] MootBot is in agreement [13:18] hehe [13:18] lol [13:18] Right now, we have a lot of ideas and things, but they never really eventuate into anything. Why not? [13:19] Because people don't know what the next step is [13:19] because the mailing list is chaotic and nobody reads it anymore. [13:19] Brainstorm is like this too [13:19] that's right mpt_ [13:19] "Hey, what about..." [13:19] Brainstorm IS like this too [13:19] and because devs aren't always willing to implement recommendations [13:19] Can you clarify what you mean by "activities"? [13:19] So, in my mails to you I suggested a few activities we might want to help set up [13:19] mpt_: I think we need to establish exactly what we need to do before we start thinking about how we should do it [13:19] right [13:20] the mockups all get thrown into the mailing list, and get lost when a new discussion starts up and drowns the previous, which is very common in ayatana-list. [13:20] For example, distributed user testing [13:20] Yup [13:20] A centralized location for quality design would be nice [13:20] humphreybc, that would be cool [13:20] i think the wiki could function for this. [13:20] good design repo [13:20] the gnome design crowd are busy working on collaboration tools [13:20] some of that should bear fruit in not too long [13:20] aday, yeah. mairin's hub [13:20] sparklepony? ;) [13:20] the wiki might be the best we have, but it's actually a horrible thing [13:20] An area (maybe a wiki for now) where we could actually post _tasks_ that are high priority for Ubuntu. People could have a crack at these tasks [13:20] That's an activity that would have several stages -- we'd want to set up a recommended procedure, work on improving/automating screen capture and webcam capture, things like that [13:20] aday: link? [13:21] sparklepony! :D [13:21] I was thinking in the lines of ubuntu-classroom sessions on the "101" or "what is what" of wireframes, heuristic evaluation, spec writing, etc. [13:21] I agree, the wiki is not the answer in the long run [13:21] that's one thing I can participate in [13:21] I think a lot of people want to help design but don't know where to help [13:21] they're designing blind [13:21] brb boss is calling [13:22] there's no information about target audience, or no information about what problems Ubuntu has - other than what each designer personally thinks, or what projects like the papercuts project pulls up [13:22] yeah, we should try to spread design education [13:22] So, user research is another activity [13:22] acheivable tasks are good. in gnome we're trying to review a lot of ui, cleaning up preferences dialogs etc [13:22] Who uses Ubuntu, what do they use it for, how old are they, what languages do they speak, etc [13:22] i'd love to throw a whole lot of infrastructure at that, but i doubt we have the ressources in man hours [13:22] I have no idea how we'd research that, but other people probably would. [13:22] What we should be doing is taking information from the design team on problems in Ubuntu and working closely with Canonical to figure out a list of things that actually *need* definite improvement. Then we can spur focused discussion on the important stuff. [13:22] mpt_: i think first we need to snip the noise before people try to waste their time too.. send a mail that we like that people have these new ideas , but currently not within the scope? , but rather to setup a wiki like : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts . ayatana/concepts ? [13:23] So mpt_, as I understand it, our team is to mainly organize the work, rather than complete it ourselves? [13:23] humphreybc, exactly [13:23] So we're sort of a middle man between Canonical and design, and the community? [13:23] This isn't about the Canonical Design team so much [13:24] But more about channeling all those ideas from Ayatana into something useful? [13:24] If people can design something awesome and get it implemented and into Ubuntu completely independently, that's great [13:24] For example, we want application developers to be able to make their applications great without having to ask Canonical for help [13:25] One activity we could do to start out would be to organize pairing up UI experts with programmers [13:25] yes, it's about channeling [13:26] mpt_: .. how about having a FAQ section for the design changes? some of the questions keep getting repeated often , much too often [13:26] So, some programmer has a great idea to write an app, but isn't too sure on how to design it or wants feedback on their design. They approach us, we choose some eager UX person from the community to pair them up with the programmer. End result = awesome, usable program. [13:26] there's a lot of talk about exciting/sexy new stuff at the expense of polishing what we've already got. it would be nice to review existing interfaces and get them up to scratch [13:26] mpt_: I also think we should be encouraging more open design from the design team. By encouraging, I mean actually helping out where we can because I know you guys are busy. [13:26] vish, for changes that come from the Canonical Design team, we'll be posting rationales on design.canonical.com. For changes that come from sabdfl, he'll post on markshuttleworth.com. :-) [13:27] :D [13:27] aday, yes, that's a good example [13:27] aday: ++ [13:27] There was actually an example of that on ayatana@ a couple of months ago [13:27] Robert Ancell asked for a usability review of Simple Scan [13:27] godbyk is making some banana bread, apparently. He'll be active soon. [13:28] mpt_: Right. So instead of the Ayatana ML pouncing on him with all sorts of crazy ideas, he could come to us and we'd pair him up with a suitable person. [13:28] but he didn't get any responses afaik [13:28] we sometimes get requests for reviews on the gnome usability list [13:28] mpt_: yeah , i mentioned that he should try the gnome UX mailing list instead [13:28] Well, it might be an interesting experiment to see if people who aren't experienced designers can follow instructions on doing a heuristic evaluation [13:29] mpt_: that's a shame. i always try and respond on the gnome channels. been doing a review of deja dup as a result of a request [13:29] So to do any of this, people have to know we exist. We're a ghost project right now, no web presence or anything. How do we educate people about our team and get them involved? [13:29] aday: he sent it to ayatana mailing list :) [13:29] can we use this for some activities? http://fivesecondtest.com/ [13:30] Maybe we figure out something we'd like to test, then spread awareness of it and create something like a "User Interface testing day" or something [13:30] I'm sure we could [13:30] get the community involved in testing, it's easy and anyone can do it. [13:30] The community would feel like they're helping with design if we make it obvious the results will be listened to. [13:30] So, let's have some actions for this meeting [13:31] Sure. First action would be to talk at UDS some more, right? [13:31] First, would someone like to volunteer to set up a wiki page where we can list all the activities we'd like to do [13:31] Not all of us will be at UDS, humphreybc :-) [13:31] humphreybc, in my experience, making the masses aware of the difference between "listened to" and "implemented" is extremely difficult, so I'd be cautious there. [13:32] mpt_: Sure, but there's always remote participation. What I'm saying is that we need another meeting to iron out the team goals, we can't go rushing into organizing activities when we still don't know what we're trying to fix, right? [13:32] It sounds like we also need to work on educating people on how to do UI reviews and design proposals, as well. [13:32] aday: if you wanna follow up on the simple scan review > https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg00987.html [13:32] thanks vish [13:32] vish: cheers. will have a go [13:32] I firmly believe a website will be a better in the long run than a wiki. A wiki is fine for now, but we should start thinking about a site instead. [13:32] The difficulty of starting with Simple Scan is that its limited to the subset of users who have a scanner [13:33] If we stick it on an ubuntu.com subdomain, then that would be even better. [13:33] but Robert would also like us to review the trunk version of Sudoku (not the version in Lucid) [13:33] because that's had a lot of design changes lately [13:33] if a significant number of us have blogs, we could set up a "Planet Ayatana UX" too [13:34] Unfortunately I am at a design sprint and I need to get back to work soon-ish [13:34] mgunes: We could, but in my experience from UMP, it doesn't really help that much. [13:34] Twitter feeds and a Facebook group are far better at spreading news than an aggregated blog. [13:35] mpt_: heh [13:35] So, sometime today or tomorrow, I will post to ayatana@ with an introduction to heuristic evaluations, and an invitation for people to try evaluating Sudoku as a simple example [13:35] And we'll see how that goes [13:35] Maybe it will be noise [13:35] Maybe it will be useful [13:35] Hmm. [13:36] I don't hold high hopes for getting the ayatana ML to do a heuristic evaluation on something from trunk [13:36] If we want the community to help us do this work, we need to make it super easy for them. As you said before, UX type people are usually really busy as it is [13:36] We'll need to provide step-by-step instructions on getting the code, yes [13:36] mpt_: how about doing a brainstorm on etherpad, to later turn that into a wiki page? [13:36] But I understand it's early days [13:37] and we can't exactly launch some huge website and CMS with such limited manpower :P [13:37] Does anyone want to volunteer to set up a document on other activities we should set up? [13:37] I don't mind whether it's Etherpad or a wiki page or something else [13:37] mpt_: I could probably do it on the plane to UDS. [13:37] one moment [13:37] I'll have a lot of time O.o [13:37] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux [13:37] LINK received: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux [13:37] so [13:38] thanks thorwil [13:38] [ACTION] Set up a document for brainstorming activities [13:38] ACTION received: Set up a document for brainstorming activities [13:38] [ACTION] mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation [13:38] ACTION received: mpt to mail ayatana list and introduce heuristic evaluation [13:38] Another meeting at some point? [13:38] I've scheduled a meeting for the same time every week [13:38] oh nice [13:38] So that wasn't a mistake :P [13:38] If this time becomes horrible for you, please update the meeting times wiki page [13:39] and we'll recalculate :-) [13:39] Groovy [13:39] I think this is a good start [13:39] If anyone comes up with ideas, stick em on the pad [13:39] yes, this is exciting [13:39] Thank you everyone for turning up [13:39] np [13:39] I'll put some stuff on the pad in a minute [13:40] Thankyou guys! [13:40] alright [13:40] ok. boss is out i'm back [13:40] is it done? hehe [13:40] wers: pretty much :P [13:40] wers: too late :) [13:40] Oh, also, we need a mailing list [13:40] Shall I set that up? [13:40] Thank you wers for providing such an excellent example of how we're too busy for bureaucracy [13:40] I'm still digesting... to be honest, I don't know if I can meet every week at this time. [13:40] humphreybc: Just set one up through launchpad then. [13:41] humphreybc, sure, just activate the LP team mailing list [13:41] aw. haha [13:41] okay [13:41] i'll do that now [13:41] #endmeeting [13:41] Meeting finished at 07:41. [13:41] good thing there's a log [13:41] see you next week :) [13:41] wers: yeah [13:41] hopefully, no overtime for me next week. see you! [13:41] either at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ or irclogs.ubuntu.com should do the trick [13:41] aysiu, that would be quite understandable. Perhaps you can have a different role, e.g. posting, to our new mailing list, links to forum threads that involve design issues [13:42] mailing list please so we can reply at our convenient times :D [13:42] wers: yep, i'll set it up in a jiffy [13:42] I think that sounds more manageable. I'd love to help out, but I also don't know if participating directly in these IRC chats is maximizing my strengths. [13:42] godbyk: hehe , we both posted the link at the same time ;) [13:43] vish: I noticed! [13:43] aysiu, cool [13:43] I don't even know what a heuristic evaluation is! [13:43] I will check out the IRC logs, though. And if there is a mailing list, let me know. [13:44] aysiu: The mailing list will appear on the bottom of this page: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-ux [13:44] do LP mailing lists automatically subscribe all team members upon creation? [13:44] (once it's been set up) [13:44] I seem to recall they did when they were new [13:45] mgunes, I don't know [13:45] We should make clear that the mailing list is just for organizational stuff, design questions belong in ayatana@ (or equivalent Gnome or KDE lists) [13:46] yeah [13:46] mpt_, which mailing list? the one that's going to be created for ayatana ux? [13:46] wers, yes [13:46] I've already had to decline someone who wanted to join the team an I awkwardly explained why :s [13:46] noted [13:47] humphreybc: you can just not approve ;) , no need to decline :) [13:47] vish: ah, forgot about that bit [13:47] I'm somewhat worried about the notion of the "Ayatana" label covering all interaction design activities. This applies to the Ayatana ML too, which has become the place to throw ideas around about all design issues, not necessarily the Ayatana project. [13:48] mpt_: should we set up our own IRC room or not so much [13:48] mgunes, oh yes [13:48] humphreybc, I don't think so, #ayatana is quiet enough [13:48] kay [13:48] humphreybc: no! -1 [13:48] must be quieter than the ML! [13:48] I've never been sure of what the scope of the Ayatana project actually is. :) [13:48] godbyk, you're not alone [13:49] godbyk: heh , joining the party late? ;p [13:49] mgunes, yeah, I originally intended to use the name Ubuntu instead, but Jono made the good point that we want upstream developers to feel welcome asking us for help (or getting suggestions from us) [13:50] godbyk, originally it was "stuff around the outside of the screen", i.e. notifications and menus [13:50] i really have to go now. see you next week :) [13:50] godbyk, now it's "UX of software in and for Ubuntu" [13:50] see you wers [13:50] mpt_: that's somewhat vague [13:50] yes, it is [13:51] vish: Yeah, I've been reading, just not commenting much. Had to babysit some baking banana bread. :) [13:51] I don't think that's a bug, though. It has a hard center and a vague perimeter. [13:51] mpt_, if that's the case (I wasn't really aware that it was) , then the word Ayatana is OK. [13:51] it's more like an "Ayatana: Random design idea moshpit." [13:51] godbyk: i meant the "not knowing the scope" party ;) [13:51] mpt_: I don't feel so bad about being confused now! [13:51] vish: Ah.. yeah, that too! [13:52] mpt_: Would we be working on improving Ayatana itself, or are we entirely separate? [13:52] humphreybc: designer tools stuff: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-one-where-the-designers-ask-for-a-pony/ [13:52] that stuff seems to be coming together now [13:52] humphreybc, I don't understand the question [13:52] aday: Excellent! I was hoping it would, but wasn't holding my breath. [13:53] mpt_: So Ayatana is a bit of a moshpit of ideas right now, and I don't think it's entirely useful (or at least not reaching its full potential). Would we work on improving that, or would we stay out of Ayatana stuff [13:54] humphreybc, the former [13:54] okay, good [13:54] but not throwing our weight around, just making suggestions of things to do [13:55] gotcha [13:55] too much orange on the pad [13:55] thorwil: nice work! :) [13:56] heh, ty [13:56] thorwil: lol [13:56] well that's your job, right? Pad writer? [13:56] Official Ayatana UX Team note taker. [13:56] :P [13:57] thorwil: awesome! last entry [13:58] lol [14:00] I'm not sure if I'll have time to make this project rock as much as I'd like to, we already have enough on our plate for UMP! That is, unless, someone starts paying me to work on these projects? hint.. hint... [14:00] argh! [14:01] I need to part right now - I'll check the rest of the logs. See you on the ML! [14:01] see you mgunes [14:01] "This team's mailing list will be available within a few minutes." [14:01] chow mgunes [14:02] * hyperair considers dropping the "chow" hilight [14:02] So what're our very next step? (Or, more specifically, what's the very next thing I should be doing? :)) [14:02] everytime someone misspells ciao, i get highlighted. [14:02] hyperair: keep it as long as you promise to berate those who use it for spelling errors. :) [14:02] * hyperair throws tomatoes at humphreybc [14:02] hyperair: chowder? ;p [14:02] grr [14:03] =p [14:03] godbyk, not sure. I guess we just wait for the reaction to mpt's email to ayatana tomorrow [14:03] I'd like to get some web presence for our project up soon [14:03] hyperair: why do you have chow on highlight anyway? [14:03] godbyk: probably wait for mpt's mail and reply from jono [14:03] humphreybc: my surname. [14:03] 'kay. [14:03] humphreybc: his name! [14:03] ah [14:03] I don't think Pidgin can do highlighting. Which is a bit sad. [14:04] humphreybc: we should stop chatting here , since this is a meeting channel :) [14:04] aye sir [14:04] vish: yeah, i might get banned [14:04] lol [14:05] move to #ubuntu-manual, we're allowed to chat as much as we like there :D [14:05] it's basically a chatroom [14:05] yeah, but don't dare to use #ayatana [14:05] thorwil: lol [14:05] * hyperair uses #ayatana as a rant-place [14:06] I wish I had the time to read all the messages in the ayatana ML [14:06] but it's getting out of hand, seems to be more emails in there than ever from this cycle [14:07] * hyperair suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users of the indicator-applet who lament the loss of the tooltips [14:11] * humphreybc also suspects that a significant number of people who joined are dissatisfied users with the choice to move the window buttons to the left [14:12] yes, agreed. [14:16] the gnome shell list is similar in many respects. i think people just like to bike shed [14:17] I think a lot of the bike-shedding discussions could be mitigated if actual data were presented. [14:17] But that never actually happens. [14:23] godbyk, do we even have actual data to present in the first place? [14:24] I assume that Canonical occasionally might. [14:24] But in general, no. [14:24] I'm suggesting we should start gathering data instead of just collecting everyone's opinions. [14:25] godbyk, yep, and we need to write up that idea on the wiki for our session at UDS [14:29] In general, I think the accumulated habits and learning of existing users get insufficient attention and value from designers. [14:30] If they valued it more, they'd get less resistance. [14:31] ScottK: Sometimes, though, those habits have been developed to cope with poorly designed software. And improving the underlying design, despite requiring some people to relearn things, is better for everyone. [14:32] godbyk: Sometimes. Often the marginal benefit is not worth it. [14:33] also, many the people on these lists aren't representative of the majority of users [14:33] hi [14:33] did anybody tried to use the blackberry us modem ? [14:34] D4mi4n: Use #ubuntu for help. [14:34] aday: That's true, but neither are designers. [14:35] ScottK: Right. One of the first rules that designers learn is that you're almost never designing the product for yourself. [14:36] My experience is that developers tend to be far less disconnected from users than designers assume and generally welcome well considered design. [14:38] I don't think that developers are disconnected with their users, but they are often only interested in incremental changes and don't want to tackle the fundamental design flaws in their software. [14:38] And that's understandable given the amount of effort it takes and the time they've put into the existing code base, etc. [14:39] That hasn't been my experience. IME they generally don't know how to do it and welcome well considered inputs. [14:40] ScottK: you should read "The Inmates are running the Asylum" if you haven't already [14:41] I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it hasn't been my experience. [14:41] The larger problem in my experience has been developers having too narrow a focus to understand how their development area fits in a larger context. [14:41] Once they get that, then a lot of resistance to change vanishes. [14:42] Sure. Unfortunately, when I've made suggestions, I've often been met with the 'we accept patches' response. [14:42] Which can either be a function of how you approach the communication or the project's openness to outside input. [14:43]