[00:16] * JontheEchidna just upgraded to maverick with the libqapt test app \o/ [00:17] what could possibly go wrong? (tm) [00:22] ! [00:23] I'm sure you'll tell us [00:23] how many months early are you? [00:23] 6, I suppose [00:24] right now it's not much different than lucid ;) [00:24] Only has a few uploads so far: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/maverick-changes/2010-May/date.html [00:26] it's beyond bleeding edge [00:26] its.......over the edge [00:26] :-) [00:26] that, and I upgraded with the test app for an alpha version of a package management library :D [00:27] * valorie sees JontheEchidna waving his arms like Wiley Coyote [01:15] zomg, Professor River Song on FlashForward [01:19] the character, or the actress? [01:21] * claydoh remembers her from ER [02:12] the actress [02:17] yeah, she has done a lot of work, I often see her on bbc shows on bbc-america [02:19] i like her a lot as Professor River Song, even more so than the Doctor's current companion [02:21] She'd definitely make a great companion, except that it'd mess up her mysteriousness [02:31] * imbrandon is just sad david tennant isnt the doc anymore ;( [02:36] I miss him, but the new one is ok, I am giving him some time before I decide [02:37] the new ones seems disjointed, not as good as the last doc [02:39] that's why I am giving it a few more episodes [09:36] nixternal: ping [09:37] ok um,anyone know where the new cd wallet artwork for lucid is? === michaelk is now known as Guest28171 [09:54] apachelogger: there? [10:10] Riddell: I need some Lucid CDs for the next fair (only Kubuntu), can you organise some for me? [10:28] Mamarok: um,how about using shipit? [10:29] shadeslayer: I need more than one, and only Kubuntu, that doesn't work with ship.it at all [10:29] shadeslayer: it sucks, but that's how it is [10:29] * Mamarok needs about 50-100 [10:29] Mamarok: actually theres a custom order entry... [10:30] shadeslayer: believe me, I tried many times, if it is not ignored, I get 10 Ubuntu ones, that's it [10:30] and the LoCo team pack has only 25 Kubuntu, I need more [10:30] Mamarok: when is it? [10:31] Riddell: in July [10:31] Mamarok: ah ok [10:31] Mamarok: e-mail me a postal address and phone number for delivery [10:32] Riddell: OK, will do, thanks a lot :) [10:36] Riddell: mail is sent, thanks again :) === shadesla1er is now known as shadeslayer [11:38] shadeslayer: yeah [11:39] apachelogger: oh i was wanted to know how to start the ubuntuone gnome client... [11:39] #ubuntuone [11:39] im testing out ubuntuone-client-kde [11:39] there is no ubuntuone-client-kde to test :P [11:40] apachelogger: what about the git repo? [11:40] that is a tech preview, so unless you also test Qt 7 tp you will not get fare with that :P [11:41] hehe :) [11:41] especially since the git repo was built around a much older version of u1 [11:42] apachelogger: yeah i tried and tried but couldnt start it :P [11:44] apachelogger: how much time does it take to build a basic kde svn snapshot and install it seprately in /opt [11:53] depends on how fast your machine is [11:53] also on the definition of kde svn snapsshot [11:54] if that includes the whole KDE SC then you will probably need a day [11:55] like, 2-3 hours on a decent machine [11:59] Sput: for all of kde? [11:59] apachelogger: yeah, on my i5 :) [11:59] ah [11:59] ^^ [11:59] I might have an extreme definition for the term "decent" [11:59] yeah [11:59] you are gentoo user [11:59] thy shall be forgiven :P [11:59] I have a highly optimized toolchain and 8 GB of RAM! [11:59] :) [12:00] see [12:00] * apachelogger wouldnt even know what to do with that amount of ram, other than let ubuntu leak into it [12:00] I usually have KDE leak into it [12:01] I recon only glib leaks :P [12:01] though.... currently I have 4.5 GB of disk cache here [12:01] and fontconfig [12:01] * apachelogger is actually wondering why fontconfig is leaking [12:01] "something" is leaking like mad on my laptop lately, and it doesn't show up in ps or xrestop [12:01] maybe X [12:02] but 3.5 GB in use after half an hour of KDE is madness [12:02] and I don't mean disk cache [12:02] apachelogger: i mean just basic kde..whatever is needed to get plasma started and the default apps [12:03] shadeslayer: 2 or 3 hours is my guess on regular hardware (in relation to Sput's decent hardware definition :P) [12:03] initial build that is [12:03] daily rebuilds are usually faster, especially if you add all sorts of magic [12:03] like icecream and ccache [12:03] and not cleaning your builddir [12:04] libvirt also leaks [12:04] gross [12:04] but veeeery slowly [12:04] klein [12:04] we need a minion to valgrind all sorts of stuff! [12:05] apachelogger: i have a 2.1 Ghz T8100 proc and 3 GB if RAM :P [12:05] sounds regular enough [12:05] anyhow [12:05] in my experience linking is the slowest anyway [12:05] ok.. [12:05] so above all you need a fast HDD [12:06] apachelogger: and what options would i need to install it seprately from my stable kde ? [12:06] apachelogger: oh.. i have a pretty fast HDD... [12:06] get me upto 30 MBps [12:07] there is a guide in the kde techbase [12:07] hahaha... nepomuk just started on its own in gnome :P [12:07] * apachelogger notes that he does not unstand the base64 transcoder he wrote 3 weeks ago -.- [12:08] btw, if anyone ever wants to debug bitwise operations in C -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/429454/ === rdieter_ is now known as rdieter [14:43] apachelogger: that assumes that the int is 32 bits [14:43] you should just shift the original number [14:43] and avoid the mod operator as we [14:43] *well [14:45] no, it assumes that apachelogger wants to not see the whole set of bits a datatype carries :P [14:45] haha [14:52] * ScottK is thinking strigi on by default was a mistake. [14:53] it can be io-killer at times [14:53] also when UI tends to freeze because of disk activity so easily these days... [15:03] Yep. [15:21] o/ dantti [15:22] JontheEchidna: hey dude :D [15:22] Hey, I think libqapt is at the point where I could consider adding things like debconf and conf file support. Wanna plan stuff at UDS? [15:23] you mentioned a debconf library that we could share [15:23] JontheEchidna: sure I think I forgot to subscribe to it [15:23] yep, remove it from adept making it a shared lib [15:24] as there is no kde perl binding to be used in debconf.. [15:26] So this would be a Qt lib? [15:26] JontheEchidna: yup it is [15:26] it's part of adept already [15:26] Will that cause any problems for aptcc? [15:26] we just need to conver that [15:27] JontheEchidna: no, aptcc will read packagekit socket file path var and set up before installing things [15:28] on the kpackagekit side it will link to libdeconf-qt and set a socket passing it's path to packagekit [15:31] apachelogger: btw, about the patch policy. In some debian packages, debian puts their patches in a patches/debian/ folder In these packages I've put our patches in a patches/kubuntu folder [15:32] konversation is one such package that leaps to mind [15:47] * ScottK finds that practice really annoying. [16:23] * ScottK missed this before: http://www.ubersoft.net/comic/hd/2008/06/and-now-stupid [16:26] Riddell: ping [16:27] * ScottK suspects he's busy pondering the effect of a hung parliament on his nation's chances to escape colonial oppression. [16:27] tee hee [16:27] lol [16:27] No, he may really be doing that. [16:29] kwin tiling works, KDE 4.5 will rock hard http://www.tm-travolta.net/shots/kwin-tiling_01.png [16:29] Tm_T: is tiling going to be in 4.5? [16:30] * jefferai tried awesome once and couldn't figure out enough key commands to bother [16:30] heh [16:30] shtylman: yes, that's there is current trunk [16:57] kde bug 231075 [16:57] KDE bug 231075 in general "Amarok 2 3 0 ubuntu 9 10 consistently crashes when importing new music library" [Crash,Resolved: fixed] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=231075 [16:58] jefferai: hi [17:03] jefferai: amarok bug worries? [17:03] Riddell: no, we seem to have figured it out [17:03] ooh? [17:03] Riddell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/taglib/+bug/572432 [17:03] Launchpad bug 572432 in taglib "Amarok freezes everytime I scan my collection" [Undecided,New] [17:04] Users blaming Amarok for a TagLib problem which is really a *buntu problem :-( [17:05] debian bug #384573 [17:05] Debian bug 384573 in libtag1c2a "Russian id3 tags problem" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/384573 [17:05] oh my [17:05] * apachelogger is wondering why no one ever implements stuff upstream -.- [17:06] no one meaning debian? [17:06] and mandriva [17:06] and fedora [17:06] and ubuntu [17:06] especially ubuntu [17:07] if at least they ware git branching upstream :P [17:07] apachelogger: what, ubuntu is not upstream?! [17:09] jefferai: do you know which is the necessary parts of the new version to fix this? people.canonical.com/~jriddell/tmp/taglib-1.6.3.diff [17:10] Riddell: yes: taglib 1.6.3 [17:10] that is not a part of a patch [17:10] we need a minimal diff for a stable release update [17:10] TagLib 1 is in maintenance mode [17:10] it's already a minimal diff [17:11] yeah [17:11] Riddell: I would push 1.6.3 to SRU [17:11] http://people.ubuntu.com/~apachelogger/tmp/taglib-1.6.2_to_1.6.3.diff [17:11] apachelogger: whatever you do, don't run the SRU past cody. He'll go all obstructionist because he is so much smarter than upstream that upstream's word obviously has zero credence whatsoever. [17:11] Riddell: [17:11] * Fixed definitions of the TAGLIB_WITH_MP4 and TAGLIB_WITH_ASF macros. [17:11] * Fixed upgrading of ID3v2.3 genre frame with ID3v1 code 0 (Blues). [17:11] * New method `int String::toInt(bool *ok)` which can return whether [17:11] Just don't ask Cody to approve it. [17:11] the conversion to a number was successfull. [17:11] * Fixed parsing of incorrectly written lengths in ID3v2 (affects [17:11] we could push everyting individually [17:11] mainly compressed frames). (BUG:231075) [17:11] that is not going to reduce the overall size though ;) [17:11] So, three bugs fixed -- you definitely want those [17:12] can but try [17:12] one new method that is (should be) ABI compatible [17:12] and which is useful to developers [17:12] that can be checked [17:12] ScottK: what do you recommend I do about cody? Just ask somebody else to do the approval? [17:12] the new method also is used itnernally [17:12] right [17:12] JontheEchidna: what is the particular SRU [17:12] JontheEchidna: Did he comment in the bug? [17:12] worse comes to worse you can patch it to make the new method private to ensure it doesn't affect ABI [17:12] JontheEchidna: also, re, patch policy ... IMHO debian should just fix their flipping naming :P [17:12] bug 576660 [17:12] Launchpad bug 576660 in soprano "soprano crashes on multiple simultaneous queries" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/576660 [17:13] JontheEchidna: but I think we should still apply the patch as is to it [17:13] only difference will be that debian is in a sub folder [17:13] ScottK: yes. though I will note that out of 5 other approved SRUs I checked in the ubuntu-sru list, exactly none had anything other than a testcase [17:14] Wait until you're sure he's away and ask someone else to approve it. [17:14] ^^ [17:14] * apachelogger agrees [17:15] anyone volunteering for the SRU or should I do it? [17:15] Is maverick out yet? [17:15] txwikinger: "next week" [17:15] Riddell: regarding taglib? [17:15] apachelogger: yes [17:15] Riddell: feel free to do it [17:16] is lernid only working with Gnome or also with kde? [17:16] Riddell: debian dir can just be copied and bumped, you can have a build log if you want :) [17:16] I shall, I feel very free today, almost like I've successfully lost a whole needless level of government [17:16] :) [17:16] ^^ [17:17] txwikinger: jono is not a friend of duplicating software, so clearly he must ignore the existance of either GNOME or KDE [17:17] Riddell: Yeah.. let's get rid of Westminster [17:17] though I seem to remember he opporunistically ditched maintainership onto someone else [17:17] apachelogger: While your statement is true you can simplify it.. He must ignore the existence of KDE [17:18] * JontheEchidna thinks it's sad when you have to worry about whether an app will be KDE compatible [17:18] * txwikinger is tired of all this ubuntu software only running on Gnome... why don't they call it just Gnome then? [17:20] * txwikinger wonders if lernid has two spelling mistakes and should really be learnit [17:21] that shiny strip on the 5, 10 and 20-euro bills is neat [17:22] JontheEchidna: "notes" [17:22] Riddell: You don't live inthe Eurozone, so you don't get to decide. [17:22] Ouch [17:22] Of course it's the fault of the colonial oppressors, but still the case. [17:23] Jono claims to be a contributer to KDE [17:23] nixternal knows about that. [17:23] ^lol [17:23] colonial oppressors? [17:23] txwikinger: The English. [17:23] txwikinger: wait what? [17:23] Europe is full of them themselves [17:24] txwikinger: he used to be, indeed, but that was a veery long time ago [17:24] heh [17:24] yeah [17:24] ScottK: just preparing him for the Walloonian vs Flemish language problem he'll get into when he goes to Belgium [17:24] "contributor" makes it sound current [17:24] Mamarok: who is he? [17:24] "past contributor" is more like it [17:24] txwikinger: Ah :D [17:24] Contributor in the dark, dank reaches of ancient history.... [17:24] ScottK: Never tell a Flem that they speak Dutch :D [17:25] Understand. [17:25] they do, but they don't [17:25] txwikinger: but they do, just don't expect them to speak French [17:25] that might cause a stir [17:25] It's OK. I'll just use English and if they don't understand, I'll say it again slower and louder. [17:25] Mamarok: In Dutch TV they have subtitles for Flems whn they speak [17:26] ScottK: Ah.. those obnoxious Amis again :D [17:26] ;-) [17:26] <3 [17:26] actually, I don't even know what language is spoken in the part of Belgium we're going to, it's outside the city limits so it might be Flemish [17:26] * apachelogger usually repeats in ruby [17:26] * JontheEchidna has a power adapter for Flemish electricity [17:26] after that I usually try klingon [17:26] txwikinger: which is total utter rubbish, they just speak a slightly different dialect, still Dutch [17:26] surprisingly that usually works out [17:26] :P [17:27] Riddell: Brussels is surrounded by Walloon which is Flemish [17:27] not sure that's right txwikinger [17:27] hope it works with Wallonian electricity :P [17:27] (j/k, if it wasn't obvious) [17:27] wallonian electricity is surely the same, it just wouldnt admit it [17:28] Riddell: Well.. depends how far outside.. if you go far enough south you will be in the French part [17:28] txwikinger: wallon is French, flemish is Dutch, you are mixing things there [17:29] and Brussels is surrounded by flandres, but is French speaking [17:29] ok. then I mix things [17:29] * txwikinger is tired from watching elections [17:29] La Hulpe is Walloonian but to get there from Brussels you have to leave the French enclaive of Brussels and briefly speak Dutch [17:29] * txwikinger does not want to miss Brown the Clown to finally leave [17:30] kubotu: np [17:30] apachelogger listened to "Spock's Arrival" by Jerry Goldsmith [Star Trek: The Motion Picture] 3 minutes ago; [http://open.spotify.com/track/6gVNMDj4w8Cguy5aELWz7z] -- see http://www.last.fm/user/apachelogger for more [17:30] live long and prosper! [17:31] So does England use the same power adapter as France and Belgium? [17:32] (among others, not just france and belgium) [17:32] Riddell: you can also travel without speaking I think :) [17:33] txwikinger: jono used to be a kde dev back in the day...he created an app called kafka, which was like the first blog software really...and that was about 10 years ago :) [17:33] JontheEchidna: no, they use British power sockets which are far superior to those flimsy continental European ones [17:33] http://www.behindkde.org/people/jono/ [17:34] whoa, young jono [17:34] nixternal: lernid still does not work on my Kubuntu [17:35] not my issue :) [17:35] Riddell: Are those English or Scottish power sockets? [17:36] txwikinger: I declaire them for Scotland, since anarchy is due to break lose in England any minute now I don't trust them with 240 volts of potential energy [17:37] scary [17:37] Riddell: Well the Tories have a good majority in *England* :D [17:37] Right, it's why Labour will never let Scotland go. [17:38] Well.. Labour need to let Brown go.. that would be a start [17:38] txwikinger: don't remind me! [17:45] jefferai: do we have a test case for this taglib update? a file which is known to be problematic? [17:45] yah [17:46] jefferai: can I get a copy? [17:46] Riddell: http://stefan.derkits.net/files/mp3.tar.gz [17:46] extracting that to some dir, running amarokcollectionscanner -b $DIR will result in a bad_alloc termination [17:47] with 1.6.3 it will work just fine [17:47] thanks [17:47] * apachelogger is wondering if we should also SRU karmic [17:47] Riddell: http://stefan.derkits.net/files/mp3.tar.gz [17:47] oh [17:47] apachelogger beat me [17:47] and [17:47] you don't need -b [17:47] just amarokcollectionscanner $DIR is fine [17:48] oh :) === jjesse_ is now known as jjesse [18:23] Man [18:23] Whoever Jonathan Thomas is [18:23] he should go back to bed and wake up on the other side of it === mcas_ is now known as mcas [18:25] I'm generally ok, unless people are needlessly trash talking kubuntu for stuff we have no control over. [18:25] Who? [18:25] Me [18:26] Why are you talking trash? [18:26] You [18:26] I what? [18:26] * ScottK gets popcorn [18:28] Saying how it was definitely an Ubuntu problem and how we suck so much, and then when it turns out to be a taglib problem you say that we're bad maintainers since we couldn't push the latest-and-greatest since we were in final freeze [18:28] Hrm. Let me break that down. [18:28] * jjesse grabs popcorn and settles down into a comfy chair to watch the smackdown [18:29] a) It was absolutely an Ubuntu problem. You guys shipped with a buggy version of TagLib. It certainly wasn't an Amarok problem, even though we were summarily blamed by earlier commenters. [18:29] b) I didn't say Ubuntu sucks so much. [18:29] c) It's also a TagLib problem. I say also since you guys could have fetched patches for the bug fixes against 1.6.2, if you'd wanted. [18:30] d) Before you go saying that (c) isn't true and it's not an ubuntu problem, you guys could also have shipped with 1.6.1, which did not have this bug. [18:31] * txwikinger grabs popcorn [18:31] e) You're getting all in a snit over a joke I made that was clearly directed at Harald, and whose context you didn't understand. [18:31] a) Not our fault. [18:31] b) You did tell everybody to get pissy and moany to us instead of taglib [18:31] No [18:32] I said for people to get pissy and moany at you instead of Amarok [18:32] whatever. semantics [18:32] Nonsense [18:32] That's not semantics at all [18:32] The bug report was opened against Amarok and had users bitching and moaning about how buggy Amarok is [18:32] I'm an Amarok developer [18:32] hence since it's not actually our fault in the slightest [18:33] I told them to get bitchy and moany at the distro [18:33] which was shipping some sort of buggy package, whichever package it turned out to be [18:33] which was the latest stable release before our release that we could include [18:33] JontheEchidna: i think he has a point... it's an integration bug [18:33] for which the followup release was not even advertised as fixing a major regression [18:33] maco: thanks [18:34] JontheEchidna: did the 1.6.2 release advertise fixing major regressions or bugs? [18:34] some memory leaks and such, yes [18:34] Ah, okay. Memory leaks are major; crashes aren't. [18:35] well, except that 1.6.2 was actually announced places [18:35] Well, except that 1.6.3 was actually announced in the same places [18:35] http://osdir.com/ml/taglib-devel/2010-04/msg00020.html [18:36] http://osdir.com/ml/taglib-devel/2010-04/msg00032.html [18:36] 32 doesnt actually say anything about crashes being fixed just says parsing errors [18:37] maco: you have to read between the lines with taglib [18:37] when taglib has an "error" it means your app crashes [18:37] im not sure its fair to say "well you shouldve known that upstream uses euphemisms for all their bugs" [18:37] and also I was more of talking about places such as planet kde, which advertised 1.6.2 but not 1.6.3, as well as the amarok-packager mailing list, which only has up to 1.6.1 announced [18:38] anyway, it's been established that the thing to do is SRU 1.6.3, yes? [18:38] correct [18:38] maco: whoever is packaging taglib should know how to read it -- besides, the bug report numbers are in the release announcement [18:38] instead of arguing about blame, how about just fixing it? [18:39] checking the bug reports shows that it fixes crashes [18:39] JontheEchidna: Planet KDE is a blog aggregator, not an official mouthpiece for release announcements. And why on earth would amarok-packagers be the definitive place for TagLib release announcments? [18:39] jefferai: ubuntu doesnt have package maintainers like debian. JontheEchidna may upload it once and never again. Riddell another time... [18:39] maco: oh -- that seems silly [18:40] its team maintainership [18:40] Sure, but shouldn't the same person do it when possible? [18:40] for things in universe, all of the developers are expected to step up and pull some of the load [18:40] for things in main, the core devs, same thing [18:40] some people will have favourite packages that they know well, sure, particularly if they have hacked on the code a bit and have an interest in it [18:41] but there's no guarantee that whoever did a certain upload has ever touched that package before [18:42] it seems (generally, not targeting Ubuntu) that by not having a particular developer try to generally follow the release announcements for packages they are responsible for that you can easily drop the ball, or have people run into the same packaging errors if there are tricks/trials during packaging [18:42] I understand team maintainership, but I would think that it'd be better for people to take care of particular assigned packages when possible, and for people to step up and help out when they are unable [18:42] uscan is used with debian/watch files to find when there are new upstream releases [18:42] uscan [18:42] ? [18:43] tool that tells us what packages are out of date against upstream [18:43] but i think its last run is before feature freeze [18:43] huh [18:43] but that requires you to have a debian/watch file [18:43] in upstream tarballs/source code repos [18:44] no it doesnt [18:44] debian/watch is in the packaging and it looks for tarballs of higher version numbers wherever you release them [18:44] varous other things it can parse too but i forget what [18:44] ah, you guys add that [18:44] I misread the first part of the man page, I thought when it was scanning it scanned upstream tarballs [18:45] (kde-apps, however, doesnt have anything with version numbers it can parse through so things from there have to be checked manually) [18:46] (i mean kde-apps.org... kde.org is fine) [18:46] kde-apps has version numbers... [18:48] I'm not sure about the API, but they're right next to the app names [18:49] im not sure what it is about it thats hard to parse. ive only ever used the tarball version parsing [18:50] http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~larus/SPIM/spim-(.*)\.tar\.gz <-- which is like that. it looks for the version string in a directory listing [18:50] but anyway, i have to go [18:53] * txwikinger wonders if there was a draw or a win [18:55] txwikinger: I'm guessing it depends on your point of view? [18:56] Also, I'm not sure what the argument was about [18:56] fingerpointing [18:56] how should I know.. I was not even involved in it, and I won't get into it now either [18:57] users blame jefferai, jefferai blames kubuntu, kubuntu blame taglib having crappy changelogs :P [18:57] Nonsense, TagLib's changelogs are fine :-) [18:57] I think it was more like [18:58] here we go again [18:58] users blame jefferai, jefferai blames Kubuntu with a joke thrown in at apachelogger since he helped debug it, Kubuntu blames taglib for some reason, and Jon gets mad at a joke not directed at him [18:59] * txwikinger changes his assessment.. Everybody lost [18:59] lol [19:00] major lol [19:00] I think I won, since it's clearly not Amarok's fault [19:00] :-) [19:01] *nod* [19:01] also [19:01] that joke is not necessarily a joke [19:01] because I really was lax :P [19:02] it is not like me to let an opporutinity of breaking freeze go by unused ^^ [19:02] apachelogger: you rebel, you! [19:03] jefferai: Your blog post didn't exactly raise the spirit of community and trying to work together to improve free software, help users, etc. It may not have been wrong, but it certainly wasn't helpful. [19:03] apachelogger: it was a joke since I was teasing you about it on IRC after we figured out the problem [19:03] that there was a kernel of truth in it (unintentionally) doesn't make it less of a joke [19:04] ScottK: what blog post? [19:04] The one JontheEchidna was unhappy with [19:04] it wasn't a blog post [19:04] OK. [19:04] but, good to know you know what you're talking about before getting in on the discusson [19:04] I know I know [19:04] though you could blog about it [19:04] because [19:04] it's true [19:04] I could [19:04] There was one and JontheEchidna was unhappy about it. [19:05] kmess devs are incredibly uninformed [19:05] ScottK: nope, there wasn't [19:05] jefferai: You should endeavour to be a barrister [19:05] earlier I told them that ubuntu and kubuntu have differen kde packages [19:05] txwikinger: I'd make a lot more money [19:05] jefferai: Good luck! [19:05] because one of them stated that it makes difference if someone is using kmess in ubuntu or kubuntu [19:05] ... [19:05]