[06:25] <godbyk> Hey, IlyaHaykinson.  I created a pad for us to add notes on how to expand/improve the style guide: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
[06:26] <godbyk> feel free to dump your thoughts there as you have time.
[06:28] <IlyaHaykinson> sweet, will do, thanks!
[06:32] <IlyaHaykinson> btw did you resolve thelucid-e2 branch situation?
[06:33] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I haven't yet. I was going to bring it up at the meeting, but we didn't get to it.
[06:33] <IlyaHaykinson> i see.
[06:34] <godbyk> I'm hoping to find someone that knows more than me about launchpad/bzr to help with it (so I don't blow something up)
[06:34] <IlyaHaykinson> i say go ahead and do it. otherwise we'll never get started on e2...
[06:34] <godbyk> you're probably right.
[06:34] <IlyaHaykinson> plus, with humphrey being out for a month, we'll have a gap in coordination
[06:34] <godbyk> do you know if/how I can kill the branch but leave in all the milestones (and readd the branch to that series)?
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. not sure about that at all.
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> i don't know bazaar very well.
[06:35] <godbyk> me neither.
[06:35] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, but there's #bzr
[06:36] <godbyk> good idea.
[06:36] <godbyk> I'll ask there.
[06:36] <godbyk> (hopefully they don't flame me too badly.) :)
[06:39] <godbyk> I've posed the question in #bzr. We'll see what they say.
[06:39] <godbyk> They may redirect me to #launchpad, too.
[06:39] <IlyaHaykinson> nod. it looks like a slow channel though
[06:40] <godbyk> indeed.
[06:40] <godbyk> maybe I'm better off going to #launchpad anyway.
[06:40] <godbyk> they're usually pretty responsive there.
[06:46] <godbyk> Seems like a dead channel (#bzr).  I'll try #launchpad.
[06:54] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: im free to help you out now if you would like?
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> well, nothing much is happening yet. but let me forward to you some results of a question i asked on the technical writing mailing list.
[06:55] <IlyaHaykinson> one sec
[06:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: well, this sounds easier than I thought it'd be.
[06:55] <godbyk> wgrant from #launchpad walked me through it.
[06:56] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, im grabbing some lunch now, ill be back in 10 minutes or so
[06:56] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: sweet.
[06:56] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: np
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, i added some comments about the style guide
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> though it really ought to be committed somewhere at some point :)
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson> unless it already is.
[07:00] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great
[07:01] <IlyaHaykinson> bbiab
[07:03] <godbyk> I've detached the existing branch.
[07:03] <godbyk> I'm creating a new branch on my hard drive right now.
[07:03] <godbyk> will push it when I'm done.
[07:18] <nisshh> back now
[07:21] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: are you able to give me a rundown on what your planning? what you want me to do?
[07:22] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i'm honestly not sure yet. there's an etherpad with some thoughts, hang on, let me find it
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/xniGvB2Nlq
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> these are my general thoughts
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson> but, generally, i think we need to carefully recruit a bunch of users that are our target audience
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> figure out what they need from a manual
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> figure out whether the manual we've written works for them
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> then do quantitative research (i.e. surveys etc) to confirm information gathered in these focus groups
[07:24] <nisshh> right
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson> and then summarize it all into recommendations
[07:25] <nisshh> sounds like a good plan
[07:25] <nisshh> where do you plan on getting these recruits>
[07:25] <nisshh> ?
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm hoping to get my friend -- who runs panels etc -- started on this soon.
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> recruits? craigslist, and the like
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> we'll need to create a good screener
[07:25] <nisshh> ah ok
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> where they don't know we're asking about the manual
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson> or about ubuntu
[07:25] <nisshh> screener?
[07:26] <nisshh> oh ok
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson> questionnaire to screen people when recruiting them
[07:26] <nisshh> have to make sure each person is being honest
[07:27] <nisshh> unfortunantly there is no one i know of in my area that even uses linux
[07:28] <nisshh> and the closest LUG is 2 hours away
[07:29] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: so i suppose the first thing to do would be to create this questionnaire?
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson> well, we don't _want_ people who use linux, right?
[07:29] <godbyk> nisshh: I think the manual is intended for people who don't/haven't used linux/ubuntu yet.
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson> we're targeting new users
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i don't know, actually, what the steps should be. probably we should settle on what users we want to reach, and then figure out where we're going to recruit them.
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson> then, yes, come up with the questionnaire
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson> i really did want my friend Hilary to drive a bunch of this, since she's got the experience. if i can't get her to start contributing by wed-thurs of next week, we'll proceed on our own
[07:31] <godbyk> Okay, I've copied the .tex files (and related tex stuff), the Makefile, the README file, the po4a.conf file, and the screenshots file over to the new branch I'm creating.
[07:31] <godbyk> What have I forgotten?
[07:31] <nisshh> godbyk: yea, i didnt really use the right words there, i meant: no one in my area is even remotely computer literate
[07:32] <nisshh> godbyk: i dont know, but someone always forgets something
[07:32] <godbyk> I know. :)
[07:32] <godbyk> I can add it later, it's not a huge deal, I guess.
[07:32] <godbyk> I'd rather start the branch with too few files than too many.
[07:32] <godbyk> the whole ideas is to reduce the branch size, after all.
[07:32] <nisshh> godbyk: maybe to a test compile?
[07:33] <nisshh> if it compiles then all required stuff should be there
[07:33] <godbyk> nisshh: yeah, I'm definitely doing that. :)
[07:33] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: which users do we want to reach? windows converts? novice linux users?
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: new computer users; people with windows or mac skills; those who would be likely to try out ubuntu.
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson> or ones who've tried and didn't end up using it.
[07:34] <nisshh> ok, where could we find people like that?
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson> universities; online; coffee shops....
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson> as long as the screener is decently written and doesn't pre-select people too much, we should end up with a reasonable group of people.
[07:37] <nisshh> oh hang on, so you want to create something like a handout screener of questions or something?
[07:38] <godbyk> brb
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> well, more like a "do you want to do this study? no reward, but you'll be helping people" type of a thing. and a URL to go answer a ton of questions.
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> that invitation to the URL could really be posted anywhere.
[07:39] <IlyaHaykinson> we'll just need to screen the people who fill out the URL to have a good mix of the people we want selected
[07:40] <IlyaHaykinson> which means we need hundreds of people to fill out the screener, so that we end up with 10-15 whom we actually interview or study
[07:41] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, so something on our website?
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> right.
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> or, well, something not connected directly with our website
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> so that they can't realize it's for ubuntu before they fill out the survey
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> cause otherwise that'd influence them ahead of time
[07:42] <IlyaHaykinson> and we wouldn't have a fair mix of people
[07:43] <nisshh> right, so a generic survey website?
[07:44] <nisshh> jaminday: hey, havent seen you on here in a while!
[07:44] <jaminday> nisshh: hey! yeah been real busy last month or so
[07:44] <IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: yeah, i think that would be a good idea
[07:44] <jaminday> I'll be trying to get back in here more often though!
[07:45] <nisshh> ok, do you have a good one in mind or do you need to do some research?
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> we could use what i used last time
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> questionpro
[07:45] <nisshh> jaminday: good! we need more people all the time
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson> limited to 10 questions for free
[07:45] <nisshh> is 10 enough?
[07:46] <IlyaHaykinson> or, we can set up limesurvey (we already have it on ubuntu-manual.org, but probably could host it on another domain too)
[07:47] <nisshh> questionpro would be fine if we only had 10 or less questions to ask a think
[07:47] <nisshh> i think
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson> nod.
[07:47] <nisshh> hmmm, so whats next>
[07:53] <godbyk> back now
[07:53] <godbyk> Hey, jaminday!
[07:54] <IlyaHaykinson> let's wait for my friend Hilary... for a few days. then move forward with the next steps.
[07:54] <godbyk> jaminday: If you have any thoughts on improving/expanding the style guide, you can add them to this pad I've created: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
[07:55] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: surveymonkey is one that gets used a lot at my university. not sure what it costs or what features/restrictions it has.
[07:55] <godbyk> (it's not particularly pretty.)
[07:56] <nisshh> http://www.surveymonkey.com/Home_PricingDetail.aspx
[07:57] <nisshh> same 10 question limit
[07:57] <godbyk> looks like it.
[07:57] <godbyk> we have our own survey software at http://survey.ubuntu-manual.org, too..
[07:57] <godbyk> though if you want to hide the 'ubuntu-manual.org' part, we'd need to set up a CNAME DNS alias
[07:58] <nisshh> yea we do
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yeah, we may just end up doing the CNAME
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> would be easier
[07:58] <godbyk> yeah.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> than using questionpro / surveymonkey
[07:58] <nisshh> yes, and we get more control over the survey too
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> well, not easier -- but we'd have more control
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson> heh. right.
[07:58] <nisshh> hehe
[07:58] <godbyk> I've got a hairetes.org domain that I'm planning to use for my dissertaion.
[07:58] <godbyk> dissertation, rather.
[07:58] <godbyk> it has no other associations at the moment.
[07:59] <godbyk> I could CNAME survey.hairetes.org over and we could use that as a cloak.
[07:59] <godbyk> or if someone else has a better domain, that's fine, too.
[07:59] <nisshh> nope
[07:59] <nisshh> i think thats fine
[08:01] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: what do you think? use the CNAME godbyk suggested?
[08:03] <IlyaHaykinson> sure; that works
[08:04] <nisshh> godbyk: lets do it then!
[08:04] <godbyk> Done. http://survey.hairetes.org/  May take a bit for the DNS changes to propagate.
[08:05] <nisshh> ooh that was quick
[08:06] <nisshh> yea its not functional just yet
[08:06] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: You'll just have to make sure 'ubuntu manual' isn't mentioned in the survey software someplace then.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson> ok
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson> thx
[08:09] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: questions?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson> for the screener? i have no idea.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> i need to think about them.
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson> we have time; again, i'd like to figure out what we want before we move forward with the questionnaire beyond this.
[08:10] <nisshh> yep
[08:11] <nisshh> im young, im impatient, dont take any notice.
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson> ;)
[08:16] <nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: just ping me if you there is anything i can help you with, hows that sound?
[08:16] <IlyaHaykinson> nod, perfect
[08:21] <jaminday> hey godbyk, sorry was outside for a bit.
[08:21] <godbyk> no problem
[08:22] <jaminday> Yep sounds good i'll take a look at the pad
[08:30] <c7p> godbyk how did go yesterday?
[08:35] <godbyk> c7p: I don't think I got much farther with it.  Give me a few minutes.. I'm updating all the ubuntu-manual branches (and trying not to screw it up too badly in the process)
[08:38] <c7p> godbyk take your time, i can understand that you are under pressure. I just want to know the progress of the work cause there are some people on the greek forums that want that translated manual and i have to inform them.
[08:44] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I've removed the original branch and replaced it with a fresh branch.
[08:44] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Can you please copy over your recent edits into the new branch?
[08:45] <godbyk> Pulling lp:ubuntu-manual will get you the new (clean) branch.
[08:48] <nisshh> yay!
[08:48] <nisshh> ill fix my local copy up now then
[08:50] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ok, will do in a bit
[08:53] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: thanks.
[08:53] <godbyk> I've just sent an email to the list to explain that various branches and which one we should be doing work in.
[08:54] <godbyk> hopefully we'll be more careful and discriminating in adding files to this branch so it doesn't get huge.
[08:55] <godbyk> (I did leave the English screenshots in there. Not sure if I should've or not.)
[08:55] <nisshh> godbyk: leave them in there because then we can make sure that the manual still compiles with them, incase of any screenshot issues
[08:56] <c7p> godbyk: interesting info, so for the lucid-e1 branch what command do we type ? bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual ?
[08:57] <godbyk> c7p: yep, that command will get you the proper branch.
[08:57] <godbyk> if you already have an ubuntu-manual dir, you'll want to rename it, probably.
[08:57] <godbyk> Now I'm going to write an email explaining the plan for releasing the translated versions of the manual.
[08:57] <c7p> godbyk: so i should update the branch on my PC, right
[08:58] <godbyk> Any suggestions for how to go about selecting an editor for each translation?
[08:58] <c7p> godbyk: very good
[08:58] <godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
[09:01] <godbyk> dutchie: you around?
[09:12] <ubuntujenkins> morning all
[09:13] <nisshh> ubuntujenkins: hey
[09:13] <ubuntujenkins> hey nisshh
[09:13] <nisshh> more like evening for me though :)
[09:13] <nisshh> or late afternoon
[09:14] <nisshh> maveric just opened for dev!
[09:15] <ubuntujenkins> afternoon nisshh
[09:18] <godbyk> okay, translation message sent.
[09:21] <c7p> nice this message is a must for the project's progress
[09:21] <c7p> a question
[09:21] <c7p> The editors should be fluent in the language,
[09:21] <c7p> willing to help edit .tex files directly
[09:22] <c7p> does this mean that the editor have to know Latex ?
[09:22] <godbyk> c7p: they won't have to know too much latex, really.
[09:22] <godbyk> c7p: most of the editing I had to do with the english version was to move the \margonnote lines around so that they were in the right place.
[09:23] <godbyk> most of the \marginnote lines are currently sitting as their own paragraph.  this is wrong.  (I should've pointed this out much earlier on, but hadn't really noticed it at the time.)
[09:23] <godbyk> the \marginnote lines should be included in/with a normal paragraph.
[09:24] <godbyk> so it's primarily a matter of either deleting the blank line after a \marginnote so that the margin note starts at the top of the following paragraph, or moving the \marginnote{...} stuff *inside* a paragraph so that it aligns with the content that it's in reference to.
[09:25] <c7p> godbyk, so the "\marginnote" should be on the same string of the relevant paragraph ?
[09:26] <godbyk> It'd be nice if the editor weren't also the primary translator of the text (as it's often hard to see mistakes in your own writing), but hopefully the editors will work with the translators to find all the bugs they can.
[09:26] <godbyk> c7p: precisely.
[09:27] <godbyk> c7p: If I moved them to their appropriate spots in the English text right now, though, it'd cause the translators a lot of grief (given that launchpad would discard the two translations and force you to retranslate the entire paragraph+\marginnote again).
[09:30] <c7p> godbyk: don't worry, if you have a back up of the pot file then the only thing you have to do is to copy n paste the needed text, i can do that job for my language. No retranslation no grief :) as long as there is a back up of the pot file of the language ;)
[09:30] <godbyk> right.
[09:30] <godbyk> for this first edition, I think we'll just move the margin notes around manually.
[09:30] <c7p> ok
[09:31] <godbyk> for the second edition, I've already made the margin note corrections in the english version. so the translated versions will see them when we get to that point.
[09:31] <c7p> good plan
[09:32] <c7p> what do i have to do to move manually the margin notes ?
[09:33] <godbyk> c7p: moving the margin notes is one of the very last things that will be done.  after all the translated text has been proofread.
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> omg. i just spent 2 hrs trying to book a freaking plane ticket.
[09:33] <godbyk> c7p: we generate the translated .tex file and then edit that file to move the margin notes around.
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> i think i'm scarred.
[09:33] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: holy cow! why'd it take so long?
[09:33] <IlyaHaykinson> card getting declined
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> first a travelocity, then again there twice. then at expedia.
[09:34] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: naw, you'll be scarred after the TSA cavity search, though.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> then i call, unblock it. still declined. try the airline directly.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> decline.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> decline. decline. call the card company again. fix things. try again.
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> FINALLY it works.
[09:34] <godbyk> maybe you should pay your cc bill first. ;-)
[09:34] <IlyaHaykinson> nah. it was a fraud block.
[09:34] <godbyk> yeah, I've had those, too.
[09:34] <godbyk> they're a pain.
[09:35] <godbyk> 'yes, I know I never spend money, but y'know what, sometimes I need a new computer. so let me use this stupid card for once!'
[09:35] <godbyk> usually it happens when I need something to ship in a hurry, too.
[09:35] <godbyk> just one more stumbling block.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> yeah. plus the airline made my type in the passport info
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> for me, my wife, and my kid.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> every time.
[09:36] <IlyaHaykinson> argh!
[09:36]  * IlyaHaykinson fumes.
[09:40] <godbyk> lovely
[09:40] <godbyk> where ya headed?
[09:40]  * godbyk is writing all sorts of emails this evening.
[09:40] <IlyaHaykinson> LA -> NYC -> Moscow -> NYC -> LA
[09:40] <IlyaHaykinson> later this summer
[09:41] <godbyk> cool
[09:43] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, man, i hope so. 10 hour flight with an 19 month old toddler will be quite something.
[09:45] <godbyk> ooh, yeah. that will be interesting.
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> where should we put things like the manual tools?
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> perhaps some other shared branch, that stays constant between releases?
[09:54] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: what kind of tools?
[09:54] <IlyaHaykinson> er, (proofread|spellcheck).py
[09:54] <godbyk> Yeah, we should probably set up another branch for those sorts of things.  Style guide included.
[09:55] <IlyaHaykinson> also, lucid-e2 won't build for me.
[09:55] <c7p> godbyk from what i see editors of the translated version, have to type to type "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1" instead of "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual" , that is described on the site
[09:55] <IlyaHaykinson> "unable to load picture or PDF file 'graphics/advanced.pdf'"
[09:55] <godbyk> c7p: The lucid-e1 branch is what the translators are working against right now.  the lp:ubuntu-manual branch is for the second edition work.
[09:56] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: let me add those pdfs for ya.
[09:56] <godbyk> (they were listed in the .bzrignore file, I think)
[09:56] <godbyk> do you have stuff to commit/push first?
[09:58] <IlyaHaykinson> nope
[09:58] <godbyk> 'kay.
[09:58] <IlyaHaykinson> was doing a build test first
[09:58] <c7p> yeah that's what I said "translated version", all the editors working on the manual are working on the lucid-e1 so the site should be updated so as not to mislead editors of the translated pdfs
[09:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, icons pushed.
[09:59] <IlyaHaykinson> titlepage/*.pdf issues now
[09:59] <godbyk> c7p: which site needs to be updated?
[09:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: figures. which of those are you missing?
[09:59] <c7p> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
[09:59] <IlyaHaykinson> title_page_letter_en
[10:00] <godbyk> c7p: ah, gotcha. well, the site's accurate for authors and non-translator editors. I'll see what we can do for the translator editors.
[10:01] <c7p> godbyk: ahh i din't knew that it was only for the English editors
[10:01] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, pushed those.
[10:01] <godbyk> c7p: Well before 30 minutes ago, the notion of translator-editors didn't really exist. :)
[10:02] <c7p> c7p: :) yeah
[10:03] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: very nice; builds very happily now. thank you.
[10:04] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great!
[10:11] <thorwil> godbyk: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/ translates to lucid-e1?
[10:13] <godbyk> thorwil: that sounds like it could be right.  but lp:ubuntu-manual should point to lucid-e2.
[10:13] <godbyk> (you have to do a fresh 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual' though.)
[10:14] <jcisio> hello
[10:14] <jcisio> anyone is aware of what happened with vi translation?
[10:14] <thorwil> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual makes it look like that would lucid-e2
[10:14] <jcisio> it had less than 1200 untranslated yesterday, but now 1463 untranslated, 309 need reviews
[10:15] <godbyk> jcisio: nice!
[10:15] <thorwil> well, i will just do a fresh checkout to be sure what i'm pulling and pushing
[10:15] <jcisio> I don't know what happened, 300 reviewed string become unreviewed
[10:15] <godbyk> thorwil: yeah, because bzr store the 'real', expanded url in the local directory. so it may be using the original main/lucid-e1 branch.
[10:16] <godbyk> jcisio: I'm not sure. We haven't updated the translation template file at all.
[10:18] <jcisio> 2h ago it was ok, but not now
[10:18] <jcisio> godbyk: I will wait a moment to see if it is a LP problem
[10:18] <godbyk> jcisio: okay. let me know if you figure out what causes that. others have asked about it in the past, too, but I don't have any answers.
[10:19] <godbyk> jcisio: if it doesn't correct itself, you might ask in #launchpad. they're typically quite helpful (and respond pretty quickly).
[10:21] <c7p> goodbye
[10:22] <godbyk> Goodbye, c7p
[10:22] <jcisio> thanks for advice, godbyk
[10:50] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, gnite
[10:51] <nisshh> night
[12:16] <dutchie> godbyk-android: i am now
[12:16] <dutchie> but your proper self appears to have split :(
[12:21] <dutchie> godbyk: back now
[12:22] <godbyk> hey, dutchie.
[12:22] <godbyk> what was I talking about when I pinged you? :)
[12:25] <dutchie> translations?
[12:25] <dutchie> branches
[12:25] <dutchie> 08:58:27 < godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
[12:25] <dutchie> 09:01:03 < godbyk> dutchie: you around?
[12:27] <dutchie> you can try to remember while i have a shower
[12:28] <godbyk> ah, I think I was going to ask you about how we should handle selecting translation editors.
[12:28] <godbyk> not urgent. go shower. :)
[13:12] <topo> hello
[13:12] <ubuntujenkins> hello topo
[13:13] <topo> trying to build the greek translation everything worked besides the indexing
[13:13] <ubuntujenkins> topo: I think godbyk is having fun trying to sort out translated indexes
[13:13] <topo> seems like that changing in the makefile the line texindy -L ....
[13:14] <topo> to: XINDY -c UTF8 -m TEXINDY -l ....
[13:14] <topo> does the job
[13:14] <topo> (oops, i pressed the caps lock)
[13:15] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ^
[13:15] <ubuntujenkins> I have no advnaced latex knowledge I am afraid
[13:16] <godbyk> topo: Yeah, that's what I was trying to do here.
[13:16] <godbyk> And then it yelled at my about not having the utf-8 encoding files or something odd
[13:20] <topo> actually the only warnings where about marginpars and overfull boxes
[13:56] <Surst> Hello :)
[13:56] <Surst> I've got a question, concerning the builds:
[13:56] <Surst> how often are they updated? daily?
[14:00] <dutchie> when godbyk gets round to doing it, iirc
[14:02] <Surst> ok, thank you :)
[16:53] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
[20:23]  * ubuntujenkins has joined all the uds channels there is so many
[21:26] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
[21:28] <ubuntujenkins> hello godbyk can you look at man dh_installtex please . I am trying to work out what line i should add to the ccicons package so that it updates the ccicons font it latex. I am told this is the way to do it. I thought you may be able to shine some light on it or have a good idea
[21:29] <godbyk> sure, lemme look
[21:31] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it looks like you want something like "dh_installtex map=Map,foo.map"
[21:32] <godbyk> for ccicons, it'd be dh_installtex map=Map,ccicons.map
[21:32] <godbyk> (assuming I've understood the examples correctly.
[21:32] <ubuntujenkins> I will have a go, I think all this managment is frying my brain
[21:33] <godbyk> I don't blame you.  It's really messy.
[21:34] <godbyk> Adding the debian layer in there just complicates things further
[21:39] <ubuntujenkins> godbyk: nice ! this appears to work
[21:39] <ubuntujenkins> thanks
[21:44] <ubuntujenkins> right now to get the licence file correct
[21:45] <godbyk> Hey, dutchie, any idea why so many translated strings are being marked as 'suggested'?  I've had a few reports of this.
[21:45] <ubuntujenkins> there was an e-mail on the list about it again
[21:46] <dutchie> godbyk: no idea
[21:46] <dutchie> something to do with permissions, i think
[21:46] <godbyk> permissions of what?
[21:47] <dutchie> the translations
[21:48] <godbyk> in launchpad?
[21:48] <dutchie> yes
[21:48] <godbyk> what would've changed?
[21:48] <dutchie> could easily have been there all along
[21:48] <godbyk> the reports I've seen are that a whole heap of previously translated and accepted strings are now flagged as suggestions instead.
[21:48] <dutchie> oh
[21:49] <godbyk> A Vietnamese translator popped in here earlier today/yesterday complaining about it. And now an Asturian translator has posted a similar story to the mailing list.
[21:50] <dutchie> hmm
[21:51] <dutchie> i'm currently doing about 15 things at once (for a change), mind asking in #launchpad?
[21:51] <godbyk> I'd like to figure out what the story is so we've at least got something to tell the translators other than, 'I dunno.' :)
[21:51] <godbyk> Sure, I'll give it a shot.
[21:51] <godbyk> Thanks, dutchie.
[21:52] <ubuntujenkins> ok just to be 100% sure line 109 of http://paste.ubuntu.com/430211/ does mean that i cna make a package of it and distribute it?
[21:53] <ubuntujenkins> also is this the same licence "Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license" that we are using?
[21:56] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: It's the LPPL, not the CC license we're using.
[21:56] <godbyk> You can redistribute the ccicons package freely, yes.
[21:57] <godbyk> The only stipulation with the LPPL, really, is that if you modify what the ccicons package does, you must rename it to avoid confusion.
[21:57] <ubuntujenkins> ccicons is under tow licences, I was pretty sure i could distrbute it always like to check
[21:57] <godbyk> in our case, we're distributing the ccicons package unmodified.
[21:58] <godbyk> ah, gotcha.
[22:31]  * ubuntujenkins man ccicons failed building in launchpad http://launchpadlibrarian.net/48086211/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.ccicons_0.0.0~20100507ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[22:31] <ubuntujenkins> I put the line in the wrong place
[22:33] <ubuntujenkins> why do we need inkscape to compile the manual?
[22:33] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's not specifically to compile the manual, but to do on-the-fly conversions from svg to pdf for the title page.
[22:34] <ubuntujenkins> Thats what i thought, thanks
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: how much do you know about debian rules files?
[22:40] <ubuntujenkins> or anyone here ^
[22:40] <dutchie> they're just Makefiles :)
[22:41] <ubuntujenkins> *make files
[22:41] <ubuntujenkins> :P
[22:41] <ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Heeeeelllllllllppppppppp......!!!!!!!!!!
[22:41] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: what's up?
[22:41] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules
[22:42] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: learn how to write Makefiles, skill for life :)
[22:42] <ChrisWoollard> I was looking at the build log for en_gb
[22:42] <ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie, another thing to learn then :)
[22:42] <ChrisWoollard> apparently there is an error where terminal is not defined in the glossary.
[22:43] <ChrisWoollard> I went into translations and searched for terminal.  https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=terminal
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> In the search it shows that line / paragraph 18 has not been translated. however none of the other screens indicate that there are any outstanding translations.
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> ANy ideas?
[22:44] <ChrisWoollard> See. I didn't break anything
[22:44] <godbyk> let me build it here real quick and see what the errors are.
[22:45] <ChrisWoollard> I wonder why it is telling me that some stuff hasn't been translated in one place but not another.
[22:46] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It looks like the newer translation I have downloaded is compiling fine.
[22:46] <godbyk> I'll update the builds page soon.
[22:47] <ChrisWoollard> So what you are saying is that the builds page is out of date?
[22:48] <godbyk> Well, the builds page was updated using revision 832.  I've since downloaded newer translations to my computer (which will be 833 once I've committed them).
[22:48] <godbyk> The builds page only gets updated when I manually run a script.
[22:49] <godbyk> So there's a lag between the translations as they are in Launchpad and the PDFs/logs are they are on the builds page.
[22:51] <ChrisWoollard> So do you also have any idea why on the above launchpad link that line 18 is listed as not translated but on https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual there are no outstanding translations?
[22:52] <godbyk> I have don't know about that, sorry.
[22:52] <godbyk> I've posed the following on #launchpad a bit earlier, though and haven't received a response yet:
 I've had some reports recently from our translators that a number of strings have been flagged as 'needs review'.  It seems this change happened overnight.  Do you know what's happened?
 http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/08/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t10:14
 https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01692.html
[22:55] <ChrisWoollard> hmmm. So what  you are saying that there is some unexplained weirdness occuring.
[22:55] <godbyk> Apparently.
[22:56] <godbyk> Unfortunately, it seems that with translations, there is often unexplained weirdness happening.  (Or, at least, *I* can't explain it.)
[22:56] <ChrisWoollard> Call Mulder and Scully
[22:57] <godbyk> The only change I've made recently was to remove the existing lucid-e2 branch and replace it with a fresh copy.  But I don't know why/how that would affect the lucid-e1 translations that everyone is working on.
[22:57] <godbyk> No doubt.
[22:57] <Daker> hello everbody
[22:57] <Daker> every*
[22:57] <godbyk> I chalk most of it up to my ignorance of the whole translation process (both inside and outside Launchpad).
[22:57] <godbyk> hey, Daker
[22:58]  * ubuntujenkins arrggh the packages got rejected
[22:59] <ChrisWoollard> Never mind then. Thanks for your help.
[22:59] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Or lack thereof. ;-)
[22:59] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If I hear anything from the launchpad folks, I'll post it to the mailing list.
[22:59] <godbyk> ubuntujenkins: why'd they get rejected now?
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> mostly my fault forgot to add my e-mail address and forgot to bump the version number up all my fault
[23:02] <ubuntujenkins> I should know about those by now
[23:03] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: try doing dch -i
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I know :) what I ment was that i should know that i should have to do that :P
[23:04] <ubuntujenkins> thanks anyway
[23:06] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I've pulled the latest translations from launchpad and am rebuilding all the PDFs now.
[23:06] <godbyk> It will take about 30 minutes for them to finish building and upload, I think.
[23:07] <ChrisWoollard> Ok
[23:08] <ChrisWoollard> I have just noticed that https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+translations now says that there are now 947 outstanding translations
[23:10]  * ubuntujenkins arrgh debian rules file again
[23:10] <ChrisWoollard> Where have they all gone?
[23:11] <ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: WHAT! they were there this morning
[23:12] <ubuntujenkins> seriously what has happend this is crazy
[23:12] <ChrisWoollard> I know.
[23:13] <godbyk> I don't know.
[23:13] <godbyk> I haven't yet received a respond in #launchpad.
[23:13] <ubuntujenkins> its the same as the others they have become suggestions by them selves
[23:14] <ChrisWoollard> That is weird
[23:14] <Daker> crasy o.O
[23:15] <ChrisWoollard> Please fix it. I don't want to have to go though all 947 again.
[23:19] <godbyk> I will if I can.
[23:27] <ChrisWoollard> Maybe I should just go to bed, pretend nothing happened and that everything is ok.
[23:28] <godbyk> :)
[23:31]  * ubuntujenkins how can a dummy package that has nothing in it to fail 
[23:31] <ubuntujenkins> *fail
[23:35] <godbyk> Latest builds are up: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
[23:38] <ubuntujenkins> all caused by missing comma's
[23:39] <godbyk> stupid commas.
[23:40] <ubuntujenkins> hopefully the dummy package will build .
[23:40] <ubuntujenkins> just ccicons make file to fix
[23:41] <ChrisWoollard> Doh..... The latest build has now gone from 100% complete to 47% complete.
[23:41]  * ubuntujenkins theres a build que :(
[23:42] <ubuntujenkins> *queue