| nisshh | check this out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409# | 05:47 |
|---|---|---|
| ubuntujenkins | does anyone know when the uk english version will be released? An e-mail asked on the ubuntu-uk mailing list | 07:32 |
| c7p | hey godbyk how is it going ? | 08:00 |
| ubuntujenkins | hey c7p I will upload the pictures as soon as i can | 08:01 |
| c7p | ubuntujenkins: ty, sorry for the yesterday inconvenience | 08:02 |
| ubuntujenkins | no problem c7p | 08:03 |
| thorwil | IlyaHaykinson: hi! docbook example leads to: XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/ubuntu-desktop.xml Line Number 180, Column 66: | 08:34 |
| thorwil | it complains about the ampersand | 08:34 |
| godbyk | thorwil: I didn't say it was perfect! :) | 08:35 |
| godbyk | It doesn't like × I'm guessing? | 08:35 |
| godbyk | if so, just replace it with 'x' for now. | 08:35 |
| godbyk | Or was there another ampersand I missed in there? | 08:35 |
| thorwil | godbyk: well, one can always use view source | 08:35 |
| godbyk | right | 08:36 |
| godbyk | I just converted it by hand to give us an idea of what docbook could do. | 08:36 |
| godbyk | what the tags looked like, | 08:36 |
| godbyk | and to make sure it covered all the stuff we needed. | 08:36 |
| thorwil | a long time ago i tried to write a document with docbook, rendering to pdf via fop | 08:36 |
| godbyk | I think the only stuff not in that example is the terminal code. but that's pretty easy for docbook, I imagine. | 08:36 |
| godbyk | I haven't figured out the docbook toolchain yet. it seems overly complicated. | 08:37 |
| thorwil | that experiment stopped when i realized i would need some not so trivial layout to add images. so it was killed for the same reason as my earlier flirt with latex | 08:37 |
| godbyk | I figured if nothing else, we could just run it through a script to convert to our tex code, tweak the result (for typographic perfection), and run it through xelatex to generate the pdf. | 08:38 |
| IlyaHaykinson | thorwil: view-source on it to read the code | 08:38 |
| IlyaHaykinson | oh, nod. | 08:38 |
| thorwil | godbyk: yes, conversion via latex is likely easier and might lead to better typesetting. doubtful that this fop business saw the same level of refinement in that regard | 08:40 |
| IlyaHaykinson | sorry folks. gotta go sleep. getting up early. l8r. | 08:42 |
| godbyk | IlyaHaykinson: I just woke up. | 08:43 |
| godbyk | Silly UDS in UTC+2. :-/ | 08:43 |
| IlyaHaykinson | heh | 08:45 |
| godbyk | Anyway, g'night, IlyaHaykinson. | 08:46 |
| c7p | g' morning godbyk how do the translated pdfs go? | 08:59 |
| godbyk | Hey, c7p. | 09:01 |
| godbyk | humpreybc's been chasing launchpad developers around UDS trying to get answers for us. | 09:01 |
| godbyk | currently, they suspect it may be due to a launchpad bug that's already on their to do list. | 09:01 |
| godbyk | I'm trying to get more details, though. | 09:01 |
| thorwil | Ben gotta catch them all! | 09:02 |
| c7p | we had a problem with lp but now the translation is 100% | 09:02 |
| c7p | i think we can move on (or not?) | 09:02 |
| godbyk | c7p: Probably. | 09:03 |
| godbyk | If you've finished the translation, I'll rebuild the PDFs and you can start editing (fixing spelling errors, grammar errors, typos, etc.) | 09:04 |
| c7p | we have worked on these errors with the team the previous week, also i made a change yesterday so from this aspect we are ok | 09:05 |
| godbyk | Oh, okay. So you think you're done editing all the strings, then? | 09:06 |
| c7p | we are walking always about the greek translation | 09:06 |
| godbyk | Morning, synergetic. | 09:06 |
| synergetic | morning, godbyk ^_^ | 09:06 |
| c7p | godbyk: yes :) | 09:06 |
| godbyk | c7p: Awesome! Okay. | 09:06 |
| godbyk | I'll write up some notes today to walk you through the next steps then, c7p. | 09:07 |
| c7p | godbyk: nice :), if it is needed i can tell you some bugs that i found out on the pdf, when i compiled the pdf successfully yesterday | 09:09 |
| godbyk | c7p: Sure - fire away! | 09:09 |
| godbyk | c7p and translators: Here's the latest about the Launchpad translations issue: | 09:14 |
| c7p | godbyk: firstly the outer page's svg wasn't generated in greek as it used to. Secondly on the "chaplinks" e.g 'Chapter : Working with Ubuntu' are on pdf as 'Κεφάλαιο ??: ??.' (only the Chapter is translated). Thirdly the heading is kind weird (i think you remember the situation) | 09:14 |
| godbyk | We can work around the bug if I disallow translators from editing the .po files directly. | 09:14 |
| c7p | godbyk: sorry for the intervention, you may go on | 09:15 |
| godbyk | That's about it. | 09:15 |
| godbyk | It's a bug in Launchpad. | 09:15 |
| godbyk | The problem occurs when Launcpad reads the .po files. It will overwrite some of the strings in Launchpad under some circumstances. | 09:15 |
| godbyk | To work around the bug, we can tell Launchpad to ignore the .po files. | 09:16 |
| godbyk | This means that you can't edit the .po files directly anymore, though -- you *must* do all the work directly in Launchpad. | 09:16 |
| godbyk | I'll email this to the list and see what others think, too. | 09:16 |
| godbyk | c7p: If the \chaplink command is showing ??s then it means that the build died somewhere along the way. xelatex has to be run multiple times to resolve the cross-references. | 09:17 |
| c7p | godbyk: good | 09:18 |
| c7p | godbyk: also the pictures are a bit distorted but this happens to all the translated pdfs that I've seen | 09:21 |
| godbyk | c7p: Distorted in what way? | 09:21 |
| godbyk | (I'm rebuilding all the PDFs with the latest translations right now. They'll be done in about 30 minutes.) | 09:22 |
| c7p | they aren't very clear, no big deal | 09:22 |
| godbyk | I think that's an issue with evince. | 09:22 |
| c7p | godbyk maybe it's evince, I ll check it | 09:23 |
| c7p | yap i can confirm that it's an evince issue | 09:43 |
| godbyk | c7p: In the Greek translation, string 1001 has a bug. The \gls command shouldn't be translated. | 09:58 |
| c7p | let me correct it | 09:59 |
| c7p | done, sorry for the inconvenience | 10:01 |
| Red_HamsterX | Anyone know when UDS ends? | 14:53 |
| godbyk | Red_HamsterX: It's over on Friday. | 14:54 |
| Red_HamsterX | Ah. Thanks. :) | 14:54 |
| Red_HamsterX | Did you get a chance to quickly review my whims about rewriting the Qs sevrer using Python (WSGI)? | 14:55 |
| Red_HamsterX | I just want to make sure that wouldn't pose an insurmountable problem on your end. | 14:55 |
| godbyk | I haven't yet. (Been wrapped up listening to UDS sessions) | 14:55 |
| godbyk | If you go to wiki.dreamhost.com and search for python or wsgi, you can see what options are available. | 14:55 |
| Red_HamsterX | I kinda want to try building it in Django, but fear that may be total overkill. | 17:02 |
| godbyk | I wish I had more control over my web host. | 17:03 |
| godbyk | But since I'm only paying US$7 a month or whatever, I can't complain too much. | 17:03 |
| Red_HamsterX | I think I'm paying a bit less (WebFaction), but I signed up for five years. | 17:04 |
| Red_HamsterX | I'm pretty happy with it, though. | 17:05 |
| godbyk | I'm on Dreamhost. They're not too bad. | 17:05 |
| Red_HamsterX | PHP is easy, but ugly and not as powerful as Python (IMO). Plus, it means maintainers would need to know two languages to hack on a single project. | 17:10 |
| Red_HamsterX | Python CGI works, but it feels counter-intuitive and messy. | 17:10 |
| Red_HamsterX | WSGI would work quite well, but DreamHost supports it through an extension that still isn't willing to call its WSGI support stable. | 17:11 |
| Red_HamsterX | Django is just something I want to learn. | 17:11 |
| Red_HamsterX | WSGI is probably the best choice overall, though, in terms of resource use versus maintainability. | 17:12 |
| godbyk | Also, CGI is slower. | 17:12 |
| godbyk | Yeah, it seems that dreamhost doesn't support WSGI quite yet. | 17:12 |
| godbyk | (well, certainly not 'natively' via apache modules) | 17:12 |
| Red_HamsterX | Speed isn't really a factor for this project, though. | 17:12 |
| Red_HamsterX | A few milliseconds won't matter. | 17:13 |
| godbyk | As long as our server isn't being hammered by requests. | 17:13 |
| Red_HamsterX | Google's App Engine supports WSGI, so we could probably make the public service available there. | 17:14 |
| Red_HamsterX | And use yours for UMP-specific activities. | 17:14 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: if python, then WSGI. i'd chose pylons or turbogears over django for being designed for WSGI from the start | 17:14 |
| Red_HamsterX | And mine for development builds. | 17:14 |
| Red_HamsterX | Of those, which is most suited to a small service, thorwil? | 17:15 |
| Red_HamsterX | Database manipulation isn't terribly important to this design. | 17:15 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: pylons | 17:16 |
| thorwil | turbogears is stuff added on top of pylons | 17:16 |
| thorwil | database business is exactly what is different on the app engine | 17:17 |
| Red_HamsterX | Pylons looks like fun. | 17:20 |
| Red_HamsterX | Sold. :) | 17:20 |
| thorwil | Mako seems to be a nice template language. it gets around inventing weird constructs like used in django's template language by basically just using python | 17:22 |
| thorwil | though that means you have to trust template authors, which is why this is considered not-designer-friendly :} | 17:23 |
| Red_HamsterX | Do you have experience with Pylons, in case I need to ask you for the term used to express an abstract idea? | 17:23 |
| Red_HamsterX | (So I can Google more good-like) | 17:24 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: not past looking at their documentation | 17:27 |
| thorwil | http://www.mutualinformation.org/2010/03/why-i-switched-to-pylons-after-using-django-for-six-months/ | 17:32 |
| Red_HamsterX | Fair enough. | 17:33 |
| Red_HamsterX | That's all I had as motivation for wanting to learn Django, too. | 17:33 |
| Red_HamsterX | (Pretty-looking documentation) | 17:33 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX, godbyk: are you able to grok this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation | 17:39 |
| godbyk | thorwil: works for me. | 17:42 |
| Red_HamsterX | Makes sense here, too, based on the abstract and some of the sample models. | 17:45 |
| Red_HamsterX | Looks similar to database concurrency problems. | 17:46 |
| thorwil | this is the basis for what google wave and etherpad do, afaik | 17:47 |
| godbyk | thorwil: sorry, I misread grok as a different verb. | 17:47 |
| godbyk | I'll read it in just a moment. | 17:47 |
| Red_HamsterX | What relevance does this have to UMP? | 17:48 |
| Red_HamsterX | Aside from being an always-cool research domain. | 17:48 |
| Red_HamsterX | s/cool/fun/ | 17:48 |
| Red_HamsterX | s/cool/fun/g | 17:48 |
| * Red_HamsterX messes with reality. | 17:48 | |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: etherpad like editing would be the ticket to a great platform for UMP | 17:49 |
| Red_HamsterX | For writers or for users? | 17:49 |
| Red_HamsterX | I don't see the application. :( | 17:49 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: say we have our document source on such an online platform. multiple writers could edit without locks or merge conflicts | 17:50 |
| thorwil | of course this would also need an elegant solution to markup/tagging | 17:51 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: goodby to manual bzr pull and push | 17:52 |
| godbyk | and the more granular the locking and edits are, the easier it is to avoid conflicts. | 17:53 |
| godbyk | especially if we make it stupidly simple to make small changes -- that'll help a lot | 17:53 |
| godbyk | then we'll have to have some videos of the diff animation, of course. :-) | 17:53 |
| thorwil | heh | 17:53 |
| Red_HamsterX | Wouldn't such a dynamic environment pose a great problem where versioning is concerned? | 17:54 |
| godbyk | There's a group at my university doing some work in the CSCW field. | 17:54 |
| godbyk | Nah, you'd just have a ton of very small-change revisions. | 17:55 |
| Red_HamsterX | And that wouldn't pose a storage concern? | 17:55 |
| godbyk | shouldn't be too bad. | 17:56 |
| godbyk | plain text compresses pretty easily. | 17:56 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: at some point it might. a solution could be to reduce the granularity of the history for old edits | 17:56 |
| Red_HamsterX | So, after a milestone has been passed, start compacting changes to day/week/month-level diffs? | 17:57 |
| Red_HamsterX | It kinda raises the question of whether diffing would even be the right solution. Maybe whole-file snapshots (compressed) would be more logical. | 17:58 |
| thorwil | Red_HamsterX: aside of our specific needs, there absolutely should be a wiki engine with such immediate collaborative editing. one that also does wysiwyg to not force users to learn strange markup | 17:58 |
| thorwil | i worked with the ubuntu wiki a lot, in the artwork section. feels like it stoneage. it's actually a rather high barrier to entry | 18:00 |
| thorwil | saw lots of ways how people get things wrong | 18:01 |
| Red_HamsterX | I've found it to be pretty average, feature-wise. | 18:03 |
| Red_HamsterX | A decent tool for anyone experienced with other wikis. | 18:03 |
| Red_HamsterX | But, yeah, not very novice-friendly. | 18:03 |
| godbyk | You're think with all the research that's been done on operational transformation, that conflicts with bzr et al. would occur far less often. | 18:05 |
| godbyk | s/'re/'d/ | 18:06 |
| godbyk | Hey, look.. Gobby's mentioned in that article, too. | 18:07 |
| godbyk | (Gobby's UI is horrible!) | 18:07 |
| dutchie | guess what arrived in the post today :) | 18:11 |
| thorwil | a real doll? | 18:11 |
| dutchie | no | 18:12 |
| thorwil | hmm, a real manual? | 18:13 |
| dutchie | yes \o/ | 18:13 |
| godbyk | lol | 18:14 |
| thorwil | dutchie: cool. print alright? would you perhaps be equipped, able and willing to create some _sharp_ hi-res photos of it? of the kind one could put in a portfolio? ;) | 18:15 |
| dutchie | able and willing, yes. equipped, no | 18:16 |
| thorwil | dang | 18:16 |
| * thorwil -> dinner | 18:19 | |
| thorwil | how do i get to know shipping cost from lulu? | 19:08 |
| dutchie | it says when you order | 19:10 |
| dutchie | but i'm not sure before then | 19:10 |
| Red_HamsterX | ubuntujenkins mentioned the coupon "FREESHIP" in a response he just posted to the mailing list. | 20:00 |
| === ianto is now known as DavidMiliband | ||
| godbyk | Okay, off to bed. | 22:53 |
| godbyk | UDS may kill me yet. Starting my day at 1 a.m. is just weird. | 22:53 |
| === DavidMiliband is now known as ianto | ||
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