[05:47] <nisshh> check this out: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409#
[07:32] <ubuntujenkins> does anyone know when the uk english version will be released? An e-mail asked on the ubuntu-uk mailing list
[08:00] <c7p> hey godbyk how is it going ?
[08:01] <ubuntujenkins> hey c7p I will upload the pictures as soon as i can
[08:02] <c7p> ubuntujenkins: ty, sorry for the yesterday inconvenience
[08:03] <ubuntujenkins> no problem c7p
[08:34] <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: hi! docbook example leads to: XML Parsing Error: undefined entity Location: http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/ubuntu-desktop.xml Line Number 180, Column 66:
[08:34] <thorwil> it complains about the ampersand
[08:35] <godbyk> thorwil: I didn't say it was perfect! :)
[08:35] <godbyk> It doesn't like &times; I'm guessing?
[08:35] <godbyk> if so, just replace it with 'x' for now.
[08:35] <godbyk> Or was there another ampersand I missed in there?
[08:35] <thorwil> godbyk: well, one can always use view source
[08:36] <godbyk> right
[08:36] <godbyk> I just converted it by hand to give us an idea of what docbook could do.
[08:36] <godbyk> what the tags looked like,
[08:36] <godbyk> and to make sure it covered all the stuff we needed.
[08:36] <thorwil> a long time ago i tried to write a document with docbook, rendering to pdf via fop
[08:36] <godbyk> I think the only stuff not in that example is the terminal code. but that's pretty easy for docbook, I imagine.
[08:37] <godbyk> I haven't figured out the docbook toolchain yet. it seems overly complicated.
[08:37] <thorwil> that experiment stopped when i realized i would need some not so trivial layout to add images. so it was killed for the same reason as my earlier flirt with latex
[08:38] <godbyk> I figured if nothing else, we could just run it through a script to convert to our tex code, tweak the result (for typographic perfection), and run it through xelatex to generate the pdf.
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: view-source on it to read the code
[08:38] <IlyaHaykinson> oh, nod.
[08:40] <thorwil> godbyk: yes, conversion via latex is likely easier and might lead to better typesetting. doubtful that this fop business saw the same level of refinement in that regard
[08:42] <IlyaHaykinson> sorry folks. gotta go sleep. getting up early. l8r.
[08:43] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I just woke up.
[08:43] <godbyk> Silly UDS in UTC+2. :-/
[08:45] <IlyaHaykinson> heh
[08:46] <godbyk> Anyway, g'night, IlyaHaykinson.
[08:59] <c7p> g' morning godbyk how do the translated pdfs go?
[09:01] <godbyk> Hey, c7p.
[09:01] <godbyk> humpreybc's been chasing launchpad developers around UDS trying to get answers for us.
[09:01] <godbyk> currently, they suspect it may be due to a launchpad bug that's already on their to do list.
[09:01] <godbyk> I'm trying to get more details, though.
[09:02] <thorwil> Ben gotta catch them all!
[09:02] <c7p> we had a problem with lp but now the translation is 100%
[09:02] <c7p> i think we can move on (or not?)
[09:03] <godbyk> c7p: Probably.
[09:04] <godbyk> If you've finished the translation, I'll rebuild the PDFs and you can start editing (fixing spelling errors, grammar errors, typos, etc.)
[09:05] <c7p> we have worked on these errors with the team the previous week, also i made a change yesterday so from this aspect we are ok
[09:06] <godbyk> Oh, okay. So you think you're done editing all the strings, then?
[09:06] <c7p> we are walking always about the greek translation
[09:06] <godbyk> Morning, synergetic.
[09:06] <synergetic> morning, godbyk ^_^
[09:06] <c7p> godbyk: yes :)
[09:06] <godbyk> c7p: Awesome! Okay.
[09:07] <godbyk> I'll write up some notes today to walk you through the next steps then, c7p.
[09:09] <c7p> godbyk: nice :), if it is needed i can tell you some bugs that i found out on the pdf, when i compiled the pdf successfully yesterday
[09:09] <godbyk> c7p: Sure - fire away!
[09:14] <godbyk> c7p and translators: Here's the latest about the Launchpad translations issue:
[09:14] <c7p> godbyk: firstly the outer page's svg wasn't generated in greek as it used to. Secondly on the "chaplinks" e.g 'Chapter : Working with Ubuntu' are on pdf as 'Κεφάλαιο ??: ??.' (only the Chapter is translated). Thirdly the heading is kind weird (i think you remember the situation)
[09:14] <godbyk> We can work around the bug if I disallow translators from editing the .po files directly.
[09:15] <c7p> godbyk: sorry for the intervention, you may go on
[09:15] <godbyk> That's about it.
[09:15] <godbyk> It's a bug in Launchpad.
[09:15] <godbyk> The problem occurs when Launcpad reads the .po files. It will overwrite some of the strings in Launchpad under some circumstances.
[09:16] <godbyk> To work around the bug, we can tell Launchpad to ignore the .po files.
[09:16] <godbyk> This means that you can't edit the .po files directly anymore, though -- you *must* do all the work directly in Launchpad.
[09:16] <godbyk> I'll email this to the list and see what others think, too.
[09:17] <godbyk> c7p: If the \chaplink command is showing ??s then it means that the build died somewhere along the way. xelatex has to be run multiple times to resolve the cross-references.
[09:18] <c7p> godbyk: good
[09:21] <c7p> godbyk: also the pictures are a bit distorted but this happens to all the translated pdfs that I've seen
[09:21] <godbyk> c7p: Distorted in what way?
[09:22] <godbyk> (I'm rebuilding all the PDFs with the latest translations right now. They'll be done in about 30 minutes.)
[09:22] <c7p> they aren't very clear, no big deal
[09:22] <godbyk> I think that's an issue with evince.
[09:23] <c7p> godbyk maybe it's evince, I ll check it
[09:43] <c7p> yap i can confirm that it's an evince issue
[09:58] <godbyk> c7p: In the Greek translation, string 1001 has a bug. The \gls command shouldn't be translated.
[09:59] <c7p> let me correct it
[10:01] <c7p> done, sorry for the inconvenience
[14:53] <Red_HamsterX> Anyone know when UDS ends?
[14:54] <godbyk> Red_HamsterX: It's over on Friday.
[14:54] <Red_HamsterX> Ah. Thanks. :)
[14:55] <Red_HamsterX> Did you get a chance to quickly review my whims about rewriting the Qs sevrer using Python (WSGI)?
[14:55] <Red_HamsterX> I just want to make sure that wouldn't pose an insurmountable problem on your end.
[14:55] <godbyk> I haven't yet. (Been wrapped up listening to UDS sessions)
[14:55] <godbyk> If you go to wiki.dreamhost.com and search for python or wsgi, you can see what options are available.
[17:02] <Red_HamsterX> I kinda want to try building it in Django, but fear that may be total overkill.
[17:03] <godbyk> I wish I had more control over my web host.
[17:03] <godbyk> But since I'm only paying US$7 a month or whatever, I can't complain too much.
[17:04] <Red_HamsterX> I think I'm paying a bit less (WebFaction), but I signed up for five years.
[17:05] <Red_HamsterX> I'm pretty happy with it, though.
[17:05] <godbyk> I'm on Dreamhost. They're not too bad.
[17:10] <Red_HamsterX> PHP is easy, but ugly and not as powerful as Python (IMO). Plus, it means maintainers would need to know two languages to hack on a single project.
[17:10] <Red_HamsterX> Python CGI works, but it feels counter-intuitive and messy.
[17:11] <Red_HamsterX> WSGI would work quite well, but DreamHost supports it through an extension that still isn't willing to call its WSGI support stable.
[17:11] <Red_HamsterX> Django is just something I want to learn.
[17:12] <Red_HamsterX> WSGI is probably the best choice overall, though, in terms of resource use versus maintainability.
[17:12] <godbyk> Also, CGI is slower.
[17:12] <godbyk> Yeah, it seems that dreamhost doesn't support WSGI quite yet.
[17:12] <godbyk> (well, certainly not 'natively' via apache modules)
[17:12] <Red_HamsterX> Speed isn't really a factor for this project, though.
[17:13] <Red_HamsterX> A few milliseconds won't matter.
[17:13] <godbyk> As long as our server isn't being hammered by requests.
[17:14] <Red_HamsterX> Google's App Engine supports WSGI, so we could probably make the public service available there.
[17:14] <Red_HamsterX> And use yours for UMP-specific activities.
[17:14] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: if python, then WSGI. i'd chose pylons or turbogears over django for being designed for WSGI from the start
[17:14] <Red_HamsterX> And mine for development builds.
[17:15] <Red_HamsterX> Of those, which is most suited to a small service, thorwil?
[17:15] <Red_HamsterX> Database manipulation isn't terribly important to this design.
[17:16] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: pylons
[17:16] <thorwil> turbogears is stuff added on top of pylons
[17:17] <thorwil> database business is exactly what is different on the app engine
[17:20] <Red_HamsterX> Pylons looks like fun.
[17:20] <Red_HamsterX> Sold. :)
[17:22] <thorwil> Mako seems to be a nice template language. it gets around inventing weird constructs like used in django's template language by basically just using python
[17:23] <thorwil> though that means you have to trust template authors, which is why this is considered not-designer-friendly :}
[17:23] <Red_HamsterX> Do you have experience with Pylons, in case I need to ask you for the term used to express an abstract idea?
[17:24] <Red_HamsterX> (So I can Google more good-like)
[17:27] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: not past looking at their documentation
[17:32] <thorwil> http://www.mutualinformation.org/2010/03/why-i-switched-to-pylons-after-using-django-for-six-months/
[17:33] <Red_HamsterX> Fair enough.
[17:33] <Red_HamsterX> That's all I had as motivation for wanting to learn Django, too.
[17:33] <Red_HamsterX> (Pretty-looking documentation)
[17:39] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX, godbyk: are you able to grok this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation
[17:42] <godbyk> thorwil: works for me.
[17:45] <Red_HamsterX> Makes sense here, too, based on the abstract and some of the sample models.
[17:46] <Red_HamsterX> Looks similar to database concurrency problems.
[17:47] <thorwil> this is the basis for what google wave and etherpad do, afaik
[17:47] <godbyk> thorwil: sorry, I misread grok as a different verb.
[17:47] <godbyk> I'll read it in just a moment.
[17:48] <Red_HamsterX> What relevance does this have to UMP?
[17:48] <Red_HamsterX> Aside from being an always-cool research domain.
[17:48] <Red_HamsterX> s/cool/fun/
[17:48] <Red_HamsterX> s/cool/fun/g
[17:48]  * Red_HamsterX messes with reality.
[17:49] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: etherpad like editing would be the ticket to a great platform for UMP
[17:49] <Red_HamsterX> For writers or for users?
[17:49] <Red_HamsterX> I don't see the application. :(
[17:50] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: say we have our document source on such an online platform. multiple writers could edit without locks or merge conflicts
[17:51] <thorwil> of course this would also need an elegant solution to markup/tagging
[17:52] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: goodby to manual bzr pull and push
[17:53] <godbyk> and the more granular the locking and edits are, the easier it is to avoid conflicts.
[17:53] <godbyk> especially if we make it stupidly simple to make small changes -- that'll help a lot
[17:53] <godbyk> then we'll have to have some videos of the diff animation, of course. :-)
[17:53] <thorwil> heh
[17:54] <Red_HamsterX> Wouldn't such a dynamic environment pose a great problem where versioning is concerned?
[17:54] <godbyk> There's a group at my university doing some work in the CSCW field.
[17:55] <godbyk> Nah, you'd just have a ton of very small-change revisions.
[17:55] <Red_HamsterX> And that wouldn't pose a storage concern?
[17:56] <godbyk> shouldn't be too bad.
[17:56] <godbyk> plain text compresses pretty easily.
[17:56] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: at some point it might. a solution could be to reduce the granularity of the history for old edits
[17:57] <Red_HamsterX> So, after a milestone has been passed, start compacting changes to day/week/month-level diffs?
[17:58] <Red_HamsterX> It kinda raises the question of whether diffing would even be the right solution. Maybe whole-file snapshots (compressed) would be more logical.
[17:58] <thorwil> Red_HamsterX: aside of our specific needs, there absolutely should be a wiki engine with such immediate collaborative editing. one that also does wysiwyg to not force users to learn strange markup
[18:00] <thorwil> i worked with the ubuntu wiki a lot, in the artwork section. feels like it stoneage. it's actually a rather high barrier to entry
[18:01] <thorwil> saw lots of ways how people get things wrong
[18:03] <Red_HamsterX> I've found it to be pretty average, feature-wise.
[18:03] <Red_HamsterX> A decent tool for anyone experienced with other wikis.
[18:03] <Red_HamsterX> But, yeah, not very novice-friendly.
[18:05] <godbyk> You're think with all the research that's been done on operational transformation, that conflicts with bzr et al. would occur far less often.
[18:06] <godbyk> s/'re/'d/
[18:07] <godbyk> Hey, look.. Gobby's mentioned in that article, too.
[18:07] <godbyk> (Gobby's UI is horrible!)
[18:11] <dutchie> guess what arrived in the post today :)
[18:11] <thorwil> a real doll?
[18:12] <dutchie> no
[18:13] <thorwil> hmm, a real manual?
[18:13] <dutchie> yes \o/
[18:14] <godbyk> lol
[18:15] <thorwil> dutchie: cool. print alright? would you perhaps be equipped, able and willing to create some _sharp_ hi-res photos of it? of the kind one could put in a portfolio? ;)
[18:16] <dutchie> able and willing, yes. equipped, no
[18:16] <thorwil> dang
[18:19]  * thorwil -> dinner
[19:08] <thorwil> how do i get to know shipping cost from lulu?
[19:10] <dutchie> it says when you order
[19:10] <dutchie> but i'm not sure before then
[20:00] <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins mentioned the coupon "FREESHIP" in a response he just posted to the mailing list.
[22:53] <godbyk> Okay, off to bed.
[22:53] <godbyk> UDS may kill me yet.  Starting my day at 1 a.m. is just weird.