[02:34] <ScottL> hi troy_s 
[02:34] <troy_s> Greets ScottL
[03:17] <ScottL> someone posted a good, simple way to install network manager from an Ubuntu Studio disc   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1479788
[06:18] <jussi> astraljava: we had Dan, Luke and myself
[13:37] <ckontros> Because of that damn Intel bug, I gotta run Debian-testing on the lappy. :(
[13:38] <astraljava> Not too bad a choice, IMHO. :)
[13:38] <ckontros> Yeah. Still a pain. I do like the ubuntu polish. ;)
[13:38] <ckontros> jussi: Around?
[13:41] <ckontros> jussi: Hit me up in PM when you can.
[14:53] <TheMuso> ScottL: Basically we hope to have pulseaudio step asside for jack2 when jack2 wants to use a sound card, hopefully for Maverick. I don't know what else there is to say really. :)
[14:54] <TheMuso> Oh yeah, I am awake as I am not really tired from my flight, as I slept on the last leg when I probably shoudln't have.
[14:56] <astraljava> TheMuso: Does that mean you'll be able to attend to the meeting?
[14:57] <TheMuso> astraljava: no
[14:57] <TheMuso> I hope I can lie down and go to sleep in a little while.
[14:57] <astraljava> TheMuso: Gotcha.
[14:57] <TheMuso> astraljava: And if you didn't know, I have resigned from the project.
[14:57] <TheMuso> So even if I was around, I wouldn't be attending the meeting.
[14:57] <astraljava> TheMuso: Yeah, now I recall.
[14:59] <ScottL> TheMuso, thanks!
[14:59] <TheMuso> ScottL: np
[15:00] <ScottL> TheMuso, astraljava mentioned several ubuntu studio members going to a UDS, has that happened in the past?
[15:02] <TheMuso> ScottL: Yes it has.
[15:02] <ScottL> TheMuso, was it quite beneficial?
[15:11] <TheMuso> ScottL: To an extent.
[17:03] <irv_> what time is the meeting
[17:52] <ScottL> irv_, in about two hours
[17:52] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
[17:56] <rlameiro> ScottL: 2 hours from now?
[17:58] <ScottL> rlameiro, i believe so
[17:58] <rlameiro> ok, because i am always confused with the daytime savings in here
[17:58] <ScottL> i believe it is 17:00 UTC right now (approximately)
[17:59] <rlameiro> in theory i am on UTC, but now we are at summer time
[17:59] <rlameiro> yea, i think so
[18:00] <rlameiro> ScottL: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/580744
[18:00] <rlameiro> and they start to appear
[18:00] <rlameiro> i marked it as a duplicate
[18:01] <ScottL> yeah, i saw that, good job
[18:02] <ScottL> i was going to link this rudimentary howto to the bug later   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1479788
[18:03] <rlameiro> well, rudimentary it is :D
[18:04] <rlameiro> the only problem is that i am swamped until, at least, 16 June
[18:04] <ScottL> well, i remember that some people have had trouble accessing the ISO as a repo and thought this should work for everyone :)
[18:04] <rlameiro> If i had time i would do a proper how to, or even make a script that people could copy to a text file and run it and it would do that for them...
[18:05] <rlameiro> ScottL: yeah, that is one of the problems...
[18:05] <rlameiro> to do that i would need to install a new ubuntu from scratch and documment the process
[18:12] <rlameiro> well, going out and do some stuff out the house, i will be here on time :D
[18:12] <rlameiro> looking forward for the meeting
[19:34] <andyzweb> meeting here in a half an hour?
[19:35] <astraljava> andyzweb: yep
[19:51] <rlameiro> well, 10 minutes to go :D
[20:00] <scott-upstairs> hello all, are we ready for the meeting? :)
[20:00] <scott-upstairs> the agenda is here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
[20:01] <scott-upstairs> i'll give a minute or two to make sure people are here
[20:01] <rlameiro> quadrispro left ... :(
[20:02] <astraljava> o/
[20:02] <crimsun> (present)
[20:02] <rlameiro> present
[20:02] <scott-upstairs> who else is here for the meeting?
[20:03] <rlameiro> stochastic: ping
[20:03] <rlameiro> crimsun: congrats for the interview :D
[20:04] <scott-upstairs> looks like rlameiro , astraljava and crimsun      fewer than I had hoped but more than it could have been :)
[20:04] <scott-upstairs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16   is the agenda
[20:04] <scott-upstairs> anyone have anything to amend to it?
[20:05] <rlameiro> i dont have
[20:05] <astraljava> Nothing from me.
[20:05] <scott-upstairs> okay, first thing is LV2:  quadripro told me two days ago that they are making good progress, lv2rack and zynjacu are already in debian new
[20:06] <scott-upstairs> he also mentioned that he has another person who is quite gifted with packaging that is assisting him
[20:06] <rlameiro> thas great
[20:06] <rlameiro> if it is on debian is only a matter of syncing it isnt it?
[20:07] <scott-upstairs> if the package is in debian and not in ubuntu we will autosync it at the beginning of every release cycle
[20:07] <astraljava> rlameiro: Yes, until Debian import freeze.
[20:07] <scott-upstairs> okay, moving on then
[20:07] <scott-upstairs> JACK2 and Pulse Audio:
[20:08] <scott-upstairs> early The.Muso said that they are hopeful that this will be completed by the end of Maverick
[20:08] <scott-upstairs> granted he didn't go into too many specifics, just that they were working on it
[20:08] <scott-upstairs> crimsun, do you have anything you would like to add?
[20:09] <scott-upstairs> if we can get this complete it would alleviate one of our users biggest complaints :)
[20:09] <crimsun> Luke and I spoke briefly at UDS-M about it; in Debian multimedia it currently takes over the existing JACK (v1) packaging, but that isn't a big deal infrastructure-wise.
[20:10] <crimsun> More interesting are a couple points, the first of which is probably more important:
[20:11] <crimsun> 1) With the introduction in Lucid of Pulse's reliance on udev (well, ConsoleKit and udev acl) for @audio permissions, it is vital that users are *not* added to @audio if PulseAudio is used.
[20:12] <crimsun> 2) Connor Curran may have resources this cycle to investigate one-click enablement of JACK from indicator-sound.
[20:13] <scott-upstairs> wow, #2 is sounds incredible!
[20:13] <scott-upstairs> but on #1, how will -rt work if the user is not part of the audio group, crimsun?
[20:14] <crimsun> scott-upstairs: the active seat, in ConsoleKit terms, already is granted access to /dev/snd/*
[20:14] <crimsun> example:
[20:14] <crimsun> getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names
[20:14] <crimsun> # file: dev/snd/controlC0
[20:14] <crimsun> # owner: root
[20:14] <crimsun> # group: audio
[20:14] <crimsun> user::rw-
[20:14] <crimsun> user:crimsun:rw-
[20:14] <crimsun> group::rw-
[20:14] <crimsun> mask::rw-
[20:15] <crimsun> other::---
[20:15] <crimsun> getent group audio                                            
[20:15] <crimsun> audio:x:29:pulse
[20:15] <crimsun> i.e., if you're at the keyboard, you'e the active seat, so you have access to @audio
[20:16] <crimsun> (note how my user is not in the audio group)
[20:16] <scott-upstairs> oh, so it's by association   (associative property x=y and y=z therefore x=z, sort of)   clever, clever
[20:17] <rlameiro> crimsun:how will it work  with plug in devices, like firewire and usb?
[20:17] <scott-upstairs> but i noticed when checking users on my lucid install that i am in the audio group
[20:18] <crimsun> scott-upstairs: yeah, you want to remove those users from @audio if you plan to have on-the-fly user-switching in GNOME
[20:19] <crimsun> notably:
[20:19] <crimsun> gnome-system-tools (2.29.91-0ubuntu2) lucid; urgency=low
[20:19] <crimsun>   * debian/patches/26_user_profiles_conf.patch:
[20:19] <crimsun>     - Don't add users to the audio group. This is consistent with
[20:19] <crimsun>       user-setup and fixes an issue with sound device permissions when
[20:19] <crimsun>       switching between users. Thanks to Igor Wojnicki for spotting
[20:19] <crimsun>       this (LP: #433654)
[20:19] <crimsun> (sorry for spamming :-) )
[20:19] <scott-upstairs> lol
[20:20] <crimsun> rlameiro: it's transparent, presuming the correct permissions are assigned in the udev rule
[20:20] <crimsun> rlameiro: i.e., they should contain to have the devices readable & writeable to @audio
[20:20] <crimsun> arg, s/contain/continue/
[20:20] <crimsun> rlameiro: i.e., no impact
[20:21] <scott-upstairs> anything else anyone wants to add?
[20:21] <andyzweb> in general or on that topic?
[20:21] <scott-upstairs> okay, moving on to the network manager bug   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/570828
[20:22] <scott-upstairs> andyzweb, whichever, go ahead
[20:22] <andyzweb> nvm, continue
[20:23] <scott-upstairs> okay, but please mention though
[20:23] <scott-upstairs> s/mention/mention it
[20:23] <scott-upstairs> the network bug is the other big complaint from users
[20:23] <scott-upstairs> thanks to rlameiro for filing the bug
[20:23] <rlameiro> np
[20:24] <scott-upstairs> it has been assigned to lucid-update, does anyone know how soon we might see some progress on this?
[20:24] <rlameiro> we need someone to know if a iso respinn can be done for this, since this is a LTS version and a lot of people rely on LTS
[20:25] <astraljava> Won't the discs be respun for 10.04.01?
[20:25] <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: its not assigned to anyone, the milestone is lucid updates
[20:25] <crimsun> is Ubuntu Studio 10.04 actually LTS?
[20:25] <rlameiro> well, i dont know, maybe we dont have lts...
[20:25] <astraljava> What do the release notes say?
[20:25] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, i would assume the ISO would be respun for 10.04.01
[20:26] <crimsun> I think at this point it may be a lost cause; we definitely want it to get into lucid-proposed, however
[20:26] <scott-upstairs> crimsun, persia was pointing out that we don't *have* to support an LTS version
[20:26] <crimsun> right, since US is a community project, but that in effect means we have to :-)
[20:27] <astraljava> Well there's no mention in the release notes, so I suppose it is not an LTS. :)
[20:27] <rlameiro> well, there is something that was bothering me about this
[20:27] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, which part bothers you?
[20:28] <rlameiro> did someone got notified on that change on the package? is there some system that warn flavours on changes made on the vanilla version?
[20:28] <rlameiro> since we depend on that package and ubuntu deprecated it in favour of nm-applet...
[20:29] <scott-upstairs> that's were having core developers on the studio team really helps :/
[20:30] <rlameiro> well, how i see it, to correct it, we will force all the other versions onto a regression
[20:31] <rlameiro> so, we have 2 options, either test and try network manager
[20:31] <scott-upstairs> well, whether we consider lucid an LTS i imagine the discs will be respun for 10.04.01 and therefore we need to get it into lucid-proposed as crimsun mentioned
[20:31] <rlameiro> or make a regression
[20:33] <scott-upstairs> well, perhaps we should defer this until persia can offer some insights as well and perhaps some other disucssions with luke as well
[20:33] <rlameiro> k then
[20:34] <scott-upstairs> but testing network manager would also be a good thing to accomplish, we just need people
[20:34] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, would you be able to do it?
[20:34] <rlameiro> i use network manager
[20:34] <rlameiro> i just dont know how to test it
[20:34] <scott-upstairs> okay, we can work on that part later :)   we just need to get more people to help us test then
[20:35] <astraljava> Make it public on ubuntu-studio-users@?
[20:35] <scott-upstairs> certainly, and post in ubuntu forums / ubuntu studio
[20:35] <scott-upstairs> it was suggested to work with upstream as well if we test and find it lacking
[20:36] <scott-upstairs> moving on, ubuntustudio-controls update and redesign
[20:36] <scott-upstairs> since jack is now handling rtpri and memlock in /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf  we need to update -controls to stop putting it into /etc/security/limits.conf
[20:37] <scott-upstairs> and rlameiro has some suggestion as far as a redesign as well
[20:37] <rlameiro> yeah, but with the new things comming, maybe it needs another rethink
[20:38] <scott-upstairs> we need to at least update it to stop adding "@audio rtprio xx" and "@audio memelock xx" though
[20:39] <scott-upstairs> does anyone have any other thoughts, suggestions, complaints about it?
[20:39] <rlameiro> well, that seems fairly easy to do, just removing the code from it
[20:40] <scott-upstairs> what about removing the "nice" setting?  it has been argued that this doesn't help with -rt audio anyway
[20:40] <rlameiro> the nice thing... i really dont know about that, maybe crimsun can help on this
[20:40] <crimsun> right, I don't think renicing gains us anything
[20:40] <rlameiro> so take it away is the way to go
[20:41] <rlameiro> so sttudio controls will be only to enable raw1394
[20:41] <scott-upstairs> are there anything else that users routinely do after installation that we might add here also?
[20:42] <scott-upstairs> like installing 'ubuntu-restricted-extras"
[20:42] <scott-upstairs> or enabling the ubuntu studio ppa for other available kernels?
[20:42] <rlameiro> well adding the ppa is a good idea
[20:43] <astraljava> I think it would only be stuff that doesn't have relatively easy GUI at the moment.
[20:43] <crimsun> I think it'd be a very good idea to partition the ppa, namely, we should make a habit of documenting a stable ppa vice a development ppa.
[20:43] <astraljava> So -1 for installing ubuntu-restricted-extras.
[20:44] <rlameiro> crimsun: +1 to the 2 different ppas
[20:44] <crimsun> in fact, anything that belongs in the stable ppa we should probably get into Debian and Ubuntu first as much as possible
[20:44] <rlameiro> so the US controls only goes for the stable things
[20:44] <rlameiro> well, kernel is not easy to push AFAIK
[20:45] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, re: easy GUI, my thought would be to consider putting anything that a user routinely does after installation to get his box set up into -controls
[20:45] <crimsun> right, but those sorts of things can be expected to sit in a ppa.
[20:46] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, but only if it's worth it (not for just one additional installation or setting)
[20:46] <rlameiro> What do you think about the script that is on the Arch Linux wiki?
[20:47] <rlameiro> it search for lots of things
[20:47] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Yeah, but the problem is that you're trying to solve the problem that some other app already solves, and more maturely.
[20:47] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, true :)
[20:47] <rlameiro> hdd setups, hpet clocks
[20:48] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, i don't know much about that rtirq script
[20:48] <rlameiro> its not rtirq
[20:48] <scott-upstairs> lol, that proves how much i know :) 
[20:49] <rlameiro> its a perl script that test the configurations of your system, rtirq tries to alocate the irq in a way the rt kernel can use the devices more efficiently
[20:49] <scott-upstairs> i'll have to look at that script then, probably tomorrow evening then
[20:49] <rlameiro> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pro_Audio
[20:49] <astraljava> Maybe that should be made into a blueprint or something, at least a wiki item where devs can give test reports and other suggestions on how it should be implemented on US. I doubt that it would be possible to integrate it straight away.
[20:50] <scott-upstairs> great idea astraljava , can either you or rlameiro make it happen?
[20:50] <astraljava> rlameiro: Do you want that one?
[20:50] <rlameiro> well, i dont know any perl, just python..
[20:51] <astraljava> rlameiro: No need to be able to tweak it, just create the wiki page or something?
[20:51] <rlameiro> ok
[20:51] <rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
[20:51] <scott-upstairs> good, you work fast rlameiro ;)
[20:52] <rlameiro> :D
[20:52] <scott-upstairs> the ppa question of -controls actually ties into the next topic which is possibily maintaining our own backports ppa
[20:52] <rlameiro> i will make a chapter for a system tester script then
[20:52] <scott-upstairs> thanks
[20:53] <scott-upstairs> john dong basically said that the backports team is stretched pretty thin usually and suggested we maintain our own backports ppa
[20:53] <scott-upstairs> especially for a LTS version (if we have one)
[20:53] <rlameiro> i can test backports
[20:53] <rlameiro> i will have a VM with a LTS version for that
[20:54] <rlameiro> or a partition for kernel and hardcore software testing
[20:54] <astraljava> I'm interested in working with backports, and possibly even integrating into the team in the future. So a big fat +1 for backports PPA. :D
[20:55] <scott-upstairs> i like backports as well :)
[20:55] <scott-upstairs> i asked jdong about a member from our team being included on their team, he wasn't reticent as much as he demured from the subject at this time
[20:56] <scott-upstairs> i think his concern was quality and effectiveness
[20:56] <astraljava> Well yeah, I assume they want to see a proven track record for these things.
[20:56] <scott-upstairs> he wants someone who does a quality job and actually *does* the job, not just someone who wants to be on another team
[20:56] <scott-upstairs> but if we maintain the backports ppa this may be a vector into it
[20:57] <astraljava> Absolutely understood.
[20:57] <rlameiro> only one thing about it
[20:57] <rlameiro> What is qualified for backport?
[20:58] <rlameiro> any app? just on the main repo?
[20:58] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, are you asking about ubuntu's policy or asking if we can slip something else into *our* ppa?
[20:59] <rlameiro> no, just iff we can backport any software we use on ubuntustudio
[20:59] <rlameiro> for instance a new jack
[20:59] <rlameiro> or a new ardour
[20:59] <crimsun> I'd argue that we consider even further partitioning of the ppa in that case.
[20:59] <scott-upstairs> we need to test it first, but i think any software in the archives is acceptable to backport
[21:00] <rlameiro> ok, understood
[21:00] <scott-upstairs> crimsun, are you saying that because of libraries?
[21:00] <crimsun> scott-upstairs: yeah
[21:00] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, weird things can happen if we start introducing something like JACK2 into lucid via backports
[21:01] <scott-upstairs> detrate, do you have anything to say about the website update?
[21:01] <astraljava> Can a team have several PPAs, or just the one?
[21:01] <rlameiro> so we can conclude we need to make various ppa with specific functions and teams
[21:01] <crimsun> astraljava: as segmented as desired
[21:02] <astraljava> crimsun: Okay, I need to read about that further. At the moment I have no idea how it works. :)
[21:03] <scott-upstairs> moving on:  we are also updating the website, detrate is helping us
[21:03] <scott-upstairs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp  is the list that i forwarded to detrate (who has someone else helping him)
[21:03] <scott-upstairs> please feel free to amend and update it
[21:04] <scott-upstairs> it would appear that the new website will probably be based on word press
[21:04] <astraljava> Surely there's a deadline for the updates? I mean, they must have a feature freeze at some point.
[21:05] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, do you mean for the website?
[21:05] <astraljava> No objections towards wordpress.
[21:05] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Yes.
[21:05] <rlameiro> i dont like the facebook think so much, but it could work :D
[21:06] <scott-upstairs> well, i don't think the feature freeze will have any impact on updating the website since it isn't actually part of the ubuntu development process
[21:06] <rlameiro> alse there is already a !ubuntustudio group on identi.ca, maybe we can send updates to the subscribers of the group
[21:07] <scott-upstairs> i was hoping to have detrate here to discuss current status and a generalized time table, but oh well
[21:08] <scott-upstairs> does anyone have anything else to add about the website update?  anyone want to particpate in it?
[21:09] <scott-upstairs> okay, moving on:  the next one is a good one,  reducing the delta between ubuntu packages and debian packages
[21:09] <scott-upstairs> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html
[21:09] <scott-upstairs> this provides a list of package that are in both ubuntu studio and debian and it categorizes them
[21:10] <scott-upstairs> we should focus on the following:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#sameversionbutlocalinB
[21:10] <scott-upstairs> and http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/ubuntustudio.html#outdatedandlocalinB
[21:11] <scott-upstairs> these are packages with local changes, i.e. ubuntu specific
[21:11] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Sorry, was afk for a while. If not tied to distro release dates, then no feature freeze for the website, you're right. Moving on now. :)
[21:12] <scott-upstairs> we should evaluate these packages and see if the ubuntu specific changes are: 1) necessary  and 2) can be pushed back "upstream" to debian to be incorporate into their pacakges
[21:13] <astraljava> I can start tracking this, like already discussed with quadrispro, I'm interested in working together with debian-multimedia, so I'd think this falls under that umbrella.
[21:13] <scott-upstairs> eliminating ubuntu specific changes allows us to request a sync from debian instead of hand packaging the changes
[21:13] <scott-upstairs> fantastic astraljava , i would also like to help with this as well
[21:14] <astraljava> Ok.
[21:14] <scott-upstairs> good, moving on:  testing procedures
[21:14] <scott-upstairs> stochastic, are you here?
[21:15] <scott-upstairs> i was hoping that since eric is the head of the ubuntustudio-testers group in launchpad that he would help with this
[21:15] <scott-upstairs> but my thoughts were that if we *really* want more feedback from users then we need to codify our expectations
[21:15] <astraljava> Shows how out I am of this game, I didn't even know about such a team in LP. :)
[21:16] <rlameiro> well i can do iso testing
[21:16] <scott-upstairs> we should establish the testing that we would like done, we should document it well, and then we should ask for help :)
[21:16] <rlameiro> but we do need some procedures
[21:16] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, thank you, but i was hoping a small team could develop those procedures :)
[21:17] <scott-upstairs> basically, we have nothing right now, so something is better than that :)
[21:17] <scott-upstairs> anyone want a crack at it? or shall I wait and see about stochastic ?
[21:17] <rlameiro> well, there are some studio esting procedures made by ckontros somewhere
[21:18] <scott-upstairs> i have all the links i could previously find somewhere convienient if you would like me to forward them to rlameiro 
[21:18] <scott-upstairs> it sounds like you may be interested in helping?  :)
[21:19] <astraljava> Is there a wiki page for this?
[21:19] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, there are several, but none really finished or completed
[21:20] <rlameiro> well i am on the testing team (i joined myself...) so i can try to help on that, but only after finishing my college related things
[21:20] <astraljava> Okay, so we need to unify them together and work on that to create the policy.
[21:20] <scott-upstairs> certainly, rlameiro
[21:21] <scott-upstairs> my thought was that a small group should get together and discuss this, agree to which itesm should be tested beyond installation of ISO
[21:21] <scott-upstairs> for example, run jack, record something in ardour
[21:21] <rlameiro> yeah
[21:21] <scott-upstairs> just come up with the bullet points of *what* should be tested, the rest is downhill (easy)
[21:21] <rlameiro> and try to have a core team that can test diffrent situations
[21:21] <rlameiro> like firewire, usb pci cards
[21:21] <rlameiro> laptop/desktop
[21:21] <rlameiro> etc
[21:22] <rlameiro> i will try to ping stochastic on that
[21:22] <scott-upstairs> but once it's documented i think we might see more support from users as well :)   tell them *specifically* what to do to test
[21:22] <rlameiro> and maybe holstein 
[21:22] <scott-upstairs> i know the opensourcemusicians would love to help :)
[21:23] <scott-upstairs> once it's documented, that is
[21:23] <rlameiro> ok
[21:23] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, so you are going to work with stochastic on this?  astraljava, do you want to help as well?
[21:23] <rlameiro> i can get to it with stochastic if he is interested in it
[21:23] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Absolutely.
[21:23] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, if he isn't i will help as well
[21:24] <scott-upstairs> that is fantastic!
[21:24] <scott-upstairs> this ties into the last topic:   where to put documentation?  wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com
[21:24] <scott-upstairs> hi _guitarman_ 
[21:24] <_guitarman_> hi scott-upstairs 
[21:24] <scott-upstairs> does anyone have particular thoughts about wiki vs. help?
[21:24] <rlameiro> finally _guitarman_ 
[21:25] <rlameiro> _guitarman_: is a good candidate for a testing team
[21:25] <astraljava> I don't have an informed opinion, sorry.
[21:25] <rlameiro> he plays alot in it
[21:25] <rlameiro> sorry for the regression scott-upstairs 
[21:25] <scott-upstairs> right now there seems to be a mish mash between the two
[21:25] <_guitarman_> rlameiro: we can talk about that later
[21:25] <rlameiro> yeap
[21:25] <scott-upstairs> no problem rlameiro :)
[21:26] <scott-upstairs> my thoughts are that we try to use help.ubuntu.com for the user facing documentation, i.e. the howtos, etc
[21:26] <rlameiro> about the next topic i think a good idea to diferentiate wiki from help
[21:26] <scott-upstairs> the wiki.ubuntu.com is what developers and contributors work on to help development
[21:26] <rlameiro> and make wiki more dev centric and help more community
[21:26] <scott-upstairs> absolutely :)
[21:26] <astraljava> Sounds good to me.
[21:27] <scott-upstairs> it wouldn't hurt to deprecate the ubuntustudio page on  wiki.ubuntu.com and put up an index for our stuff then
[21:27] <astraljava> Please elaborate.
[21:27] <scott-upstairs> 'tis a nice page, i would move it somewhere and link to it, not delete it :)
[21:28] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, right now it has things like team members, how to contact the team, this is not very "development" like
[21:28] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Okay, understood.
[21:28] <scott-upstairs> that information can be moved to the help.ubuntu.com as required
[21:28] <scott-upstairs> okay :)
[21:28] <rlameiro> well i do have some things to trough in
[21:29] <scott-upstairs> yes?
[21:29] <scott-upstairs> and i think astraljava had something as well
[21:29] <rlameiro> well the main topic is the audience and the meaning of ubuntustudio
[21:30] <rlameiro> who? why? where? are very important questions
[21:30]  * scott-upstairs nods his head
[21:30] <_guitarman_> you also have ubuntustudio.com
[21:31] <rlameiro> for instance why do we need a media distro and for whom
[21:31] <rlameiro> and find a "user base" and go for it 
[21:31] <_guitarman_> as an end user its always been a bit confusing having so many places to go
[21:31] <_guitarman_> not knowing which is the right place etc.
[21:31] <rlameiro> i had an idea of what can be done, but people could find this intruding
[21:32] <astraljava> rlameiro: Be brave. :)
[21:32] <scott-upstairs> _guitarman_, that is a *very* good point, we shall have to address it as well
[21:32] <rlameiro> make a feedback software that would fireup on the first install, maybe atacched to a launchpad id (to avoid duplicates)
[21:32] <rlameiro> and make a kind of poll
[21:33] <_guitarman_> scott-upstairs: its my belief most people are going to be starting on the ubuntustudio.com web site
[21:33] <scott-upstairs> _guitarman_, that's good information, thanks!
[21:33] <_guitarman_> scott-upstairs: so if you want to funnel them in appropriately, you should have a help tab, and a developer tab
[21:33] <_guitarman_> and on that is how you can direct traffic appropriately
[21:33] <scott-upstairs> absolutely :)
[21:33] <rlameiro> _guitarman_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskWebRevamp look and see what can be improved
[21:33]  * _guitarman_ isn't sure if he's being a pest or not
[21:34] <scott-upstairs> _guitarman_,  you are offering good opinions and advice, not being a pest :)
[21:34] <_guitarman_> rlameiro: ah thanks
[21:34] <astraljava> Currently we have links to both wiki.u.c and help.u.c on the website, but perhaps clarifying what they mean is in order.
[21:34] <scott-upstairs> we currently have a user base, but i don't think anyone could accurate define it well
[21:35] <rlameiro> well that is the idea of this software
[21:35] <rlameiro> you could do a feedback app that would send usefull info about the usage
[21:35] <rlameiro> for instance, it could send the hardwae the people use, what for(audio video or 3d/2d
[21:36] <_guitarman_> astraljava: i would venture to say that the user will be confused with a redirect - if there is a way to make it appear that they are still on the ubuntustudio website that would be less confusing even if you are bringing in content from the other sites. if this makes sense
[21:36] <scott-upstairs> that does make sense _guitarman_ 
[21:36] <astraljava> _guitarman_: Noted. Don't know how it's possible, but something to think about.
[21:36] <scott-upstairs> i'm not sure if it's possible :/  we can ask detrate for his input though
[21:36] <rlameiro> maybe using a iframe with the link
[21:38] <scott-upstairs> rlameiro, if we did go the 'feedback app' route it would take time to get through REVU though
[21:38] <_guitarman_> the user needs a 1 stop shop, ideally it would all be on the ubuntustudio web site...
[21:38] <_guitarman_> if your goal is to get less developer types and hacker types, then they don't really care about anything but ubuntustudio.com
[21:39] <_guitarman_> what i mean is - if you want to widen the audience, you have to deliver something like a super tasty potato chip... the bag has to look good, and the contents have to be refined and just the right stuff.
[21:39] <_guitarman_> anyways - you get the idea i imagine and i'll just listen in for a bit
[21:40] <astraljava> _guitarman_: I'm getting the feel that help.u.c would be integrated to us.org, _not_ wiki.u.c/us though. That might make perfect sense, actually.
[21:40] <rlameiro> _guitarman_: you are right, i never liked the ubunsutstudio website because of that
[21:41] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: I hear ya regarding the feedback app. It takes time to design and spec such an app, and getting it in before feature freeze might prove out to be difficult.
[21:41] <astraljava> Perhaps for Maverick+1?
[21:41] <rlameiro> astraljava: maybe there is a way to parse the help.u,com webpage and use it as a "native look" inside ubuntustudio.org
[21:42] <astraljava> rlameiro: _guitarman_: Please add this as a feature to the TaskWebRevamp page, so detrate et al. can design it in.
[21:42] <rlameiro> well the feedback app has very deep implications, that go into the ubuntu core 
[21:42] <scott-upstairs> i had planned on discussing audience in the next meeting so i'm not as prepared as i had hoped
[21:42] <scott-upstairs> but we obviously need to understand more about our audience's wants and needs
[21:42] <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: np, but as astraljava mentioned, this stuff takes time
[21:42] <scott-upstairs> i had thought that an online survey would help and had started developing questions for it
[21:42] <rlameiro> so we need to start ASAP to get it on Maverick+1
[21:43] <scott-upstairs> we could post the link in the -users mailing list, the forums and the irc channel
[21:43] <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: online survey will help for the immediate time
[21:44] <scott-upstairs> but i fear that most users are somewhat apathetic to helping and we may need another vector to gather information
[21:44] <rlameiro> but i always tought that it is a missing piece on the ubuntu sphere
[21:44] <astraljava> I'm just thinking about popcon, and its problems in getting users reveal their habits and other "sensitive" information.
[21:44] <rlameiro> maybe it is purposed, so i am afraid it will be dismissed very hard
[21:45] <scott-upstairs> "popcorn" astraljava ?
[21:45] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: No, popcon.ubuntu.com. :)
[21:45] <astraljava> There's an app that gathers information regarding packages installed etc.
[21:46] <astraljava> But it has to be turned on, as turning it on by default is considered a privacy violation.
[21:46] <scott-upstairs> oh, bloody fantastic!  i didn't know that existed till fifteen seconds ago
[21:46] <rlameiro> well, i dont meant to do packages
[21:47] <rlameiro> I tought more on a survey like thing
[21:47] <scott-upstairs> i was hoping to understand user's workflows as well
[21:47] <astraljava> rlameiro: I understand, but it might be perceived as the same thing.
[21:47] <rlameiro> astraljava: yeap, i know it is really sensitive stuff
[21:48] <scott-upstairs> but it does become important for us to understand what the users want/need in order to provide it to them
[21:48] <astraljava> But yeah, as a totally volunteered "if you like, please take part in this survey" kind of app.
[21:48] <rlameiro> astraljava: that was the idea
[21:48] <rlameiro> the app show on the startup, or maybe after 10 reboots
[21:48] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Forums have polls, don't they?
[21:49]  * rlameiro 10 reboots seems better
[21:49] <scott-upstairs> i think ubuntu forums has polls
[21:49] <rlameiro> well, maybe we will need a meeting just for this matter :D
[21:49] <astraljava> rlameiro: There is the way to make those lightbulbs appear in the panel, that might work as an information pop-up as well.
[21:50] <rlameiro> astraljava: great idea
[21:50] <astraljava> rlameiro: True, but let's not wait too long for that.
[21:50] <holstein> rlameiro: sorry i missed the meeting :/
[21:50] <holstein> i had a session
[21:50] <holstein> and im off to a gig now :)
[21:50] <rlameiro> he he
[21:50] <scott-upstairs> hi holstein , bye holstein !
[21:50] <rlameiro> lol
[21:50] <holstein> next time
[21:50] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, didn't you have something else you wanted to mention?
[21:51] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Hmm... I don't know, did I? :)
[21:51] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Any idea what it was referring to?
[21:51]  * astraljava had a tough day at the construction... :)
[21:51] <scott-upstairs> sorry, it was andyzweb 
[21:51] <astraljava> Ok.
[21:52] <scott-upstairs> andyzweb, do you want to mention now what you started to say earlier?
[21:53] <scott-upstairs> whew, it's been a two hour meeting
[21:53] <rlameiro> wow
[21:53] <rlameiro> i need to eat
[21:53] <rlameiro> lol
[21:53] <astraljava> Goes to show that a meeting was in order. :)
[21:53] <scott-upstairs> does anyone else have anything to add?
[21:53] <astraljava> Next meeting?
[21:53] <scott-upstairs> i'll add audience to the next meeting agenda soon
[21:54] <scott-upstairs> astraljava, should be in approximately one month
[21:54] <astraljava> scott-upstairs: Okay good.
[21:54] <scott-upstairs> we try for second sunday each month
[21:54] <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: i think we could schedule more often
[21:54] <rlameiro> maybe specific meetings
[21:54] <rlameiro> like testing team meeting 
[21:55] <scott-upstairs> absolutely!  that's a good idea
[21:55] <scott-upstairs> i'll summarize the meeting during this coming week and see about setting the next meeting up as well and post to the -dev mailing list
[21:56] <rlameiro> k
[21:56] <astraljava> Great!
[21:56] <scott-upstairs> thank you for participating :)
[21:56] <astraljava> Does the meeting log get posted?
[21:56] <scott-upstairs> yes, this channel is automatically logged
[21:56] <astraljava> Oh, right. :)
[21:56] <scott-upstairs> i will include links to it on the meeting agenda page along with the summerization
[21:56] <scott-upstairs> s/summerization/summary
[21:56] <astraljava> Cool.
[21:56] <scott-upstairs> that sounded german
[21:57] <astraljava> Heheh... :)
[21:57] <rlameiro> he he
[22:05] <astraljava> Thank you ScottL for organizing this. :)
[22:05] <astraljava> Just one thing came to mind, too late of course. What about the team positions?
[22:06]  * _guitarman_ plays defense
[22:06]  * _guitarman_ jokes
[22:06] <astraljava> Hahah! :)
[22:11] <rlameiro> lol
[22:11] <rlameiro> ScottL: is not upstairs now... maybe spending sometime with the family
[22:11] <rlameiro> I vote on _guitarman_ to the testing team
[22:12] <rlameiro> he uses a lot of audio features everyday, besides beeing a podcaster
[22:22] <astraljava> Hopefully he can join the team. Is it an open team? Well I guess I can take a look at it myself. :)
[22:24] <astraljava> Ahh... I'm already an indirect member. Guess I should pay more attention to my LP affairs. ;)
[22:41] <_guitarman_> rlameiro: i'd love to be helpful, i'm just very concerned about the commitments i already have. :( testing an iso out from time to time and contributing a thought here and there may be my max at this point ... i'm just not sure, i've got the full time job, the podcast, the kids, and a tech contract outside of that
[22:42] <rlameiro> _guitarman_: well, you could test things out when isos ae released
[22:42] <rlameiro> and maybe only testing one of them
[22:42] <_guitarman_> yes, i did one of those this time around
[22:42] <rlameiro> that would be very helpfull already
[22:43] <_guitarman_> probably my usefulness will extend to communicating what the team has to say - like the interview we did with scott
[22:43] <_guitarman_> i'm open to conveying whatever the team wants to send out
[22:43] <rlameiro> and as a musician you would go to the straight points, like hardware working, or jack unnig and things like that
[22:43] <_guitarman_> we are almost at 1500 downloads / month
[22:44] <_guitarman_> hopefully grow more and more
[22:44] <rlameiro> well, i think a PR positions isnt a bad idea...
[22:44] <_guitarman_> hehe we shall see - i'll sit in on the next few meetings and see if anything comes natural to how i can be of service
[22:44] <rlameiro> maybe a shout out to test isos when its needed 
[22:45] <_guitarman_> yup or if the team needs help developing an app to do X
[22:45] <_guitarman_> or this or that
[22:45] <_guitarman_> next time we won't fail so bad on getting the word out sooner
[22:46] <rlameiro> well you can help alot just with that
[22:46] <rlameiro> but also, you are an "heavy" audio user, so you imput is very important also
[22:47] <rlameiro> software releases worth to include, or some things that dont work wood
[22:47] <rlameiro> that feedback seems important to me
[22:47] <_guitarman_> yeah, something that is really useful that kxstudio did is the pulse to jack bridge being on by default
[22:47] <_guitarman_> this solved my podcast problem with skype
[22:47] <_guitarman_> i setup a mumble server
[22:47] <_guitarman_> do the voip on that
[22:47] <rlameiro> and after all you are a power user.... slackware pain lover
[22:47] <_guitarman_> use pulse to jack audio bridge to route the other voice in ardour
[22:47] <_guitarman_> i tested this today, it works
[22:48] <rlameiro> well, the problems is that the bridge is not on the ubuntu repos
[22:48] <rlameiro> so here you go, you found a thing to implement :D
[22:48] <_guitarman_> yes, it must be in falks ppa
[22:49] <_guitarman_> as it is, his distro is more suitable with that being implemented for my uses.
[22:49] <_guitarman_> i can get ubuntustudio to do the same i imagine if i drop the ppa in
[22:49] <_guitarman_> i might do this
[22:49] <_guitarman_> on my mininote
[22:50] <_guitarman_> the implecation is huge - the lack of dependance on a non free tool
[22:50] <rlameiro> well, maybe we need to try to push the package to the ubuntu repos
[22:50] <_guitarman_> i will drop slack like a hot rock
[22:50] <rlameiro> hehe
[22:50] <_guitarman_> here what i think kxstudio does right - the latest apps, the pulse to jack sync
[22:51] <_guitarman_> in a way, fragmentation is a bit of a problem - blessing and a curse
[22:51] <rlameiro> _guitarman_: what is the name of the bridge?
[22:52] <rlameiro> from the binary 
[22:52] <_guitarman_> hmmm lemme see if its easy to grep
[22:52] <_guitarman_> i actually don't know
[22:53] <_guitarman_> i still have that livedvd in the pc
[22:53] <rlameiro> oh never mind
[22:53] <rlameiro> i will find it later
[22:53] <_guitarman_> pulseaudio-module-jack
[22:53] <_guitarman_> is one
[22:54] <_guitarman_> they are on jack2 though as well etc.
[22:54] <_guitarman_> its all the experimental stuff
[22:54] <_guitarman_> ladi
[22:54] <_guitarman_> etc
[22:54] <_guitarman_> i dont really know if thats where ubuntustudio wants to go
[22:55] <_guitarman_> anyways - that module in particular is of use to podcasters wanting to use pulse voip and record it in ardour
[22:55] <_guitarman_> a lot of linux podcasters would find that useful
[22:56] <_guitarman_> well, i just installed that on the mininote
[22:56] <_guitarman_> which is running lucid
[22:56] <_guitarman_> i'll let you know if thats all that was needed
[22:57] <rlameiro> well, it is on the repos
[22:57] <rlameiro> where do you strt it?
[22:58] <rlameiro> from the pachooser?
[22:58] <_guitarman_> rlameiro: we can probably take this over to #opensourcemusicians so we don't flood the log
[22:58] <rlameiro> yeap
[22:58] <rlameiro> :D
[23:02] <astraljava> Please don't, it's useful information for this project as well. :) Nevermind the log.
[23:03] <rlameiro> yea