[00:58] I'm back now. Long day. (New job.) [00:58] Reading the backlogs. [02:22] https://launchpad.net/uslc [02:30] You've got tense inconsistencies. [02:30] probably [02:31] humphreybc's always got tense inconsistencies. [02:32] Most notably when he's talking about things that haven't happened yet in the present tense. :) [02:32] Doesn't make his ideas any less compelling, though. :) [02:32] Btw, humphreybc, flan is the new Red_HamsterX. [02:32] Aww... [02:32] You spoiled it. :( [02:32] lol [02:32] sorry. [02:32] I wanted to surprise him. [02:32] I thought it would take someone with some cheek to question me :D [02:32] =P [02:33] I finally, with ubuntujenkins's help, got this nick released from abandoned purgatory. [02:33] as for the tense thing, if I talk about something that hasn't happened like it has happened, that's called "thinking positively" [02:33] hahaha nice [02:33] It's what I use on other networks, 'cause it's short and unassuming. [02:33] yeah [02:33] It's also known as 'driving godbyk up the wall'. :) [02:33] Red Hamster X is pretty weird [02:33] It is. [02:34] Underscores in names are pretentious. :( [02:34] I remember Tim's expression when I told him [02:34] I just used it 'cause that's how I sign things. [02:34] 'Cause it's memorable. [02:34] yup [02:34] shit we have a lot of crap to get through this cycle [02:34] Oh, yeah... Plenty of it. [02:35] I need to recruit more people... also, need to simplify instructions on our site [02:35] I'm starting to make decent progres with the technologies I want to use for the QS server, so I should be able to start working on the client earlier than expected. [02:35] fantastic [02:35] Which means I can probably help with some other stuff. [02:35] yay :) [02:35] USLC needs you! [02:35] I should be able to start hacking on the train next week. [02:35] we need a codename for the project [02:35] and we need a new team name for us [02:36] Team We're-better-than-you [02:36] "The Ubuntu Manual Team" is too restricting now, seeing as we won't just produce manuals in the near future. [02:38] also, a heads up: over the next week or so I'll be working primarily on OMG! Ubuntu! stuff, and then for about 3 weeks after that I'll be studying for my exams next month. Long story short, I won't be doing a lot of work in the next month. I'll hang out in the channel and reply to emails but I have so much stuff to do it's not funny [02:38] Bleh. My mind's stuck in an alliterative loop. [02:38] and i'm confident you guys can survive without me :) [02:39] (at least until you run out of stuff to do and need me to come up with more zany ambitious ideas) [02:39] You've given us plenty of direction, so that's probably a safe assumption. [02:39] So, uh, like in time for 12.04? [02:39] heh [02:40] What do you guys think is the best way to lay out direction/work item type stuff for the team? [02:40] blueprints? blog posts? TODO lists? [02:40] Or is everything fairly organized already [02:41] As an observer, I think things are likely to be identified, tagged, and owned as they come up, documentation-wise... [02:41] kk [02:42] Judging from some of the emails in the ML, it looks like everyone understands the concept and goals of USLC [02:42] With QS, godbyk's identifying some useful ideas and I'm trying to figure out how to build them into the design. [02:42] But I need to write up some clearer specifications for USLC, including identifying actions when you interact with certain areas of the site [02:43] Hehe, Quickshot is an awesome success story [02:43] You guys are like a snowball rolling down a hill, we gave you the first push and now the QS team are off doing your own thing and setting your own goals which is awesome. People ask me about QS and I'm like "I have no idea what they're up to, they just do it" and that's awesome. [02:43] It'll be a lot better when we're done rebuilding it. :) [02:44] I'm really liking where I think I can take the server in terms of getting things up and running effortlessly. [02:44] And I love Luke's slides for the new UI. [02:45] Yeah, if you guys can make it easy for other projects to configure the backend, then that would be magical [02:45] That's my goal. [02:45] Minimal requirements: python 2.5 [02:45] And that should be it. [02:45] I'd love to see Debian, Linux Mint, OpenSUSE and a tonne of teams in the Ubuntu community using it [02:45] (just as examples) [02:46] y'know, for their documentation [02:46] Of course. [02:46] I'm advocating distribution neutrality. [02:46] yay! [02:47] Though we'll be maintaining patches necessary for making UMP projects easy as part of the core development effort. [02:48] :) [02:48] I'm really expecting deploying a QS server to be a matter of grabbing the package (which can be as simple as an archive), editing one config file to identify the admin's login password and data paths, and then doing everything else through the web interface. [02:49] All project owners (each server will support multiple project families and projects) will be identified using OpenID. [02:49] So there's nothing messy and no risk of credential leakage. [02:50] that sounds fantastic [02:50] I love the quality of work our team is producing [02:50] and actually making Linux stuff EASY [02:50] it all helps bring it into the mainstream [02:51] * flan hopes Tim gets back to him sooner, rather than later. Preferably with positive news. [02:51] job? [02:51] * flan is already finding working in a "Microsoft Gold Certified Partner" environment stiffling. [02:52] So not my kind of place. [02:53] did you apply for the python position in his team? [02:53] Yeah. [02:53] And I pinged him. [02:53] neato [02:53] And he knows. [02:53] have you chatted? [02:53] I'm just expressing interest. [02:53] hokay [02:56] maybe I should apply for this? [02:56] http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_URM/ [02:58] That seems like a perfect fit. [02:59] Whoo! Found a good abstract guide to implementing OpenID in a website. [02:59] (The official docs are quite lacking) [03:00] yay! [03:26] So has daker finished USLC yet? [03:40] He's close. [03:49] haha [03:50] he's the man [06:38] IlyaHaykinson: hows the research going? [06:42] Hi! Is there something i can do for the web-manual? [06:43] nisshh: got a book in the mail on running user research. i will write up some ideas in the next one-two days; [06:44] silasle: we are always looking for help [06:44] ! [06:45] silasle: the current focus is on our second edition for Lucid (called lucid-e2, internally) [06:45] basically currently we need to look for problems in the manual, and fix them [06:45] if you just want to contribute a bit, this is the easiest way to start -- help find and fix problems [06:46] probably the easiest is to run through various instructions and make sure they're easy to follow [06:46] IlyaHaykinson: cool [06:46] if you feel more adventurous, you could get a copy of the manual code and start making tweaks (somewhere there's a long list of problems) [06:48] I would like to get the code :P [06:50] silasle: please take a look at http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/editors [06:50] that's the best way to get started [06:50] if you run into any problem, just let people in this channel know. [06:50] i'll be out for about an hour, but will be back then (downloading TeX may take a while... it's 2GB) [06:51] Ok, thanks very much, but now i have to go... [06:51] (that note about TeX was for you -- that's towards the bottom of the instruction page) [06:51] ok, bye! see you around! [08:28] What do we think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75rGr5vENs [08:35] humphreybc: its quite random [08:35] please elaborate? [08:38] it is random just is not sure why tbh [09:23] * ubuntujenkins used 18gb the three weeks he was at home at easter the limit is 10gb :? [09:24] I am going to have to upgrade the internet when I am at home next year [12:25] what themes do people use? [12:29] the default one :) [12:29] so do i but i am getting bored of it [12:32] brb [12:36] http://www.ubuntugeek.com/nice-themes-for-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-users.html [14:58] Interesting comments in the docs-versus-ump mailing list. [14:58] (+thread) [15:27] flan: any link on that? [15:31] https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01753.html [15:31] This one and its immediate follow-up. [15:32] We may need someone diplomatic to watch the thread, just in case someone on our side adds a non-neutral comment. [15:33] I'm kinda surprised our team has more than 400 members (according to LaunchPad). [15:53] And there's the docs team's civil retort... [15:57] flan: I'm on it. :) [15:59] Yay. :) [16:01] Hey, IlyaHaykinson. [16:01] Did you see Matthew East's response? [16:01] I'm going to respond soon. [16:04] godbyk: same here [16:04] tis why i'm up early today :) [16:51] godbyk-sagan: have you sent the docs mail yet? [16:51] ubuntujenkins: writing it now. [16:52] There is a bit of talk about quickshot ( a few sentences) [16:53] I am keen to try and see what other people want out of it, do you think it would be best to start a new thead or add it to the current one? [16:53] I would probably start a new thread so that the Quickshot discussion doesn't get mired down in this conversation. [16:54] I'm using Quickshot in my response to illustrate a point, too. :) [16:54] I will write one covering our current plans etc [16:54] cool. thanks! [16:55] I will get you guys to read it first so i don't make any silly mistakes :) [17:00] godbyk-sagan: hey.. there [17:00] Hey, vish. How's it going? [17:00] godbyk-sagan: did humphrey mention we spoke the kyle at the UDS? [17:01] yeah, he did. [17:01] s/the/to [17:01] he said kyle generally liked our ideas and was pretty much on board. [17:01] is that your impression, too? [17:01] godbyk-sagan: yeah , was an interesting conversation and we have a convert :) [17:01] whos kyle? [17:01] vish: great! [17:01] kyle is a member of the docs team. [17:02] I think he's the one who wrote the server guide, but I could be wrong on that. [17:02] ubuntujenkins: and he works for canonical [17:02] nice :)) [17:02] people leaving docs team to join ours would be ... an interesting signal [17:02] * popey sighs [17:02] its not "them" and "us" guys. [17:03] popey: +1 [17:03] popey: +1 [17:04] that's not what i meant [17:04] popey: kyle was mentioning about his problems and that he sorta didnt like the manual team's approach , but now he likes us too ;) [17:05] vish: any insight to gain from his initial reservation? [17:05] thorwil: well , mostly the wam-bam approach we went in ;p [17:06] vish: you know i'm not happy about that, but it looks like it worked, strangely [17:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual still says "beta" is that right? [17:07] Hopefully we'll overcome that soon. [17:07] popey: Nope. The wiki is pretty much dead. We should update it and redirect most of it to our website. [17:07] popey: In general, http://ubuntu-manual.org content should be preferred to the wiki content at this point. [17:07] The perception of being reckless or the way we have hacks everywhere? [17:07] godbyk-sagan: and popey is really much nicer in person ;) [17:08] vish: ha! good to know! [17:08] flan: Ultimately, both. :) [17:08] :( I wanted to grab the manual and see if the bug I filed was still there [17:08] it is :( [17:09] flan can i have you input n this e-mail i am sending please http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/iZlJPIupeT [17:10] Want me to just edit directly? [17:10] please do you are better with words than i am [17:12] popey: which bug? [17:12] i cant link to a bug because you didnt use the bug tracker :) [17:15] fair enough. Can you describe the bug? [17:20] yeah, do a search for "apt-get", it only mentions apt-get update and apt-get upgrade, not dist-upgrade [17:20] which is somewhat flawed [17:22] I see. Is 'apt-get upgrade' suggested when 'apt-get dist-upgrade' should be used instead? Or is your complaint more that 'dist-upgrade' isn't mentioned at all? [17:22] How would you explain the differences between the two to a beginning user? [17:23] funny you should mention that [17:23] http://popey.com/blog/2010/01/11/feedback-for-going-linux-podcast/ thats how :) [17:25] So it sounds like 'upgrade' should never really be used in practice and that one is better off using 'dist-upgrade'. Is that correct? [17:25] (What's the benefit of 'upgrade'?) [17:25] yup [17:26] well, if you ran a server and wanted to keep up with updates but didnt want any _new_ "untested" (by you) code on your server then you might consider using 'upgrade' [17:26] but if you just want everything up to date and secure then you use dist-upgrade [17:26] if you only use upgrade then you will get situations where packages get held back because a dependancy can't be satisfied [17:27] ah, I understand. [17:28] so for a getting started guide, would you recommend just suggesting dist-upgrade and not even mentioning upgrade? [17:28] not sure I'd mention apt-get in a getting started guide :) [17:29] but yeah, if you're going to mention it, I'd use dist-upgrade [17:32] popey: fair enough. I think the command line chapter is up for a lot of revision (excision) in Maverick. [17:32] We're hoping to make the guide truly a 'getting started' guide. [17:32] ok [17:32] but will bugs be fixed in the lucid version? given lucid is an LTS release? [17:33] popey: We're going to be releasing a second edition of the lucid version in a couple months, yes. [17:33] We're going to try to resolve all the bugs that have been reported so far. [17:33] Also, if you'd prefer to have your bugs in Launchpad (to more easily track them or discuss them), you're more than welcome to do so. [17:34] We set up the other bug form primarily to reduce the barrier to entry so we could quickly collect as many bugs as possible. [17:34] sure, I understand that [17:34] It's just frustrating not to know the status of bugs. [17:35] will look forward to reviewing the next release :) [17:35] Most of the bugs we collected through that form were 'this word on page 54 is misspelled'. [17:35] popey: i think most people don't care about reporting bugs and tracking their status :) [17:36] they just want to submit a minor change request or error, and assume we'll take care of it [17:36] in incorrect assumption in this case [17:36] sure. that's why we accept launchpad bugs, too. :) [17:37] yup. [17:37] i see launchpad-style bugs, actually, as mainly used for Bug #1 type issues [17:37] large things that we need to change [17:37] like "convert to DocBook" [17:38] or "screenshots are all sized 1024x769!" [17:38] whereas most public input will probably take the form of "hey, i found i typo " [17:39] i can understand that. [17:43] filed bug 582361 [17:43] Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582361 [17:44] popey: thanks! [17:50] why do we need to use apt-get? [17:51] the Update Manager has a distribution update button... [17:51] when one is available [17:51] Because the terminal chapter hasn't been stripped down the the absolute minimum yet. [17:51] And dist-upgrade doesn't do that. [17:52] It's more like saying "upgrade everything" than "upgrade to the latest distribution". [18:09] I'm going to grab some lunch. I'll be back in a bit. [18:14] * ubuntujenkins sends the quickshot e-mail [18:29] Which mailing list did you post it on, ubuntujenkins? [18:29] (I haven't received a notification yet) [18:29] (And I don't really want to miss the thread) [18:30] flan: manual and doc I din't bother with the quickshot one as th elist can only be psoted to if you are amember [18:30] Maybe it's just delayed, then... [18:31] I got the e-mail straight away on the lists [18:31] Maybe I'm not subscribed... [18:32] ubuntujenkins: got the post too [18:34] thats good [18:34] flan: I thought you would be subbscribed to the manual one [18:34] I'm pretty sure I am. [18:35] Yeah, I'm subscribed... [18:35] ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net [18:38] I just got another message posted to that list. [18:38] Really weird... [18:39] I don't know then [18:41] Oh, there it is. [18:41] Just weird delay. [18:41] All's good. [19:46] hey godbyk :) , are you available ? [19:48] Hey, c7p. sorry for the delay on that info. I just started a new job. [19:48] I'll try to write up some notes tonight. [19:49] i know congrats :) [19:49] ok cool [19:49] if you want to get started, though, you can run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.tex' to generate the .tex file. [19:49] congrats godbyk-sagan. [19:49] then just move the \marginnote{...} bits around so that the \marginnote command starts on the same line that the margin notes refers to. [19:49] also, make sure the \marginnote{...} isn't in its own paragraph (surrounded by blank lines). [19:50] you can then run 'xelatex ubuntu-manual-el' to compile the pdf. [19:50] (if you run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.pdf, it'll overwrite your .tex file, so avoid that for now.) [19:50] ok ty ;) I will work on it tonight [19:50] I have to run off to a demo of this project I got pulled into. I'll be back this evening, though. [19:51] c7p: feel free to email if you have questions or problems. [19:51] godbyk-sagan: sure [19:51] see ya later. [19:51] cya [20:03] * ubuntujenkins thinks we should get a mumble chat [20:04] yay, more complexity [20:05] I like the idea of not having to type, its hard to explain stuf fon irc [20:07] grmpf [20:10] if you set it up, i may turn up [20:11] I have no where to put it :/ hench why quickhotdevs is only on when i am on [20:13] we could just do epic skype conference calls :) [20:13] we could, skype is cool [20:14] I like text. [20:14] Text is easily searchable. [20:15] dutchie: this translation lark ref bug #Bug 582446 [20:15] Launchpad bug 582446 in quickshot "Quickshot cannot be localized" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582446 [20:16] i'm merging the branch from dpm now :) [20:16] ok I hope its all ok I am yet to check it all [20:16] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dpm/quickshot/enable-translations/+merge/25548 :) [20:16] reading it now [20:18] dutchie: can we please not set up the translation yet though [20:18] Yeah... It'd be largely wasted effort at this stage. [20:18] exactly [20:18] We're not even sure exactly which labels we need. [20:18] and none of the text is final [20:18] (The old UI is being completely overhauled) [20:19] right, ok [20:19] triaged/low/Luke? [20:20] (serves me right for not keeping up with qs development) [20:20] I could probably take this one, though. [20:20] Complete from-scratch rebuild. [20:20] flan don't mind its the whole teams responsiblity [20:20] Well, mostly from-scratch. [20:20] We'll keep code that works well. [20:20] But rearchitect how it fits. [20:21] I mean for overseeing integration of translation into the whole system. [20:21] * flan isn't sure how long-reaching bugs are supposed to work. [20:22] as i am doing ui assign it to me i would like a string freze asap then we can get people to do it [20:22] I think that is best [20:22] but there is the server stuff as well... [20:23] flan: can you please check https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dpm/quickshot/enable-translations/+merge/25548 lines 36 and 37 of the diff [20:23] also 80 and 81/82 please [20:23] I don't understand the use of [20:24] % symbols instead of the previous code [20:24] ubuntujenkins: string interpolation scales better than just concatenating them together [20:24] and if a language is RTL, it can be dealt with better [20:24] fair enough as long as that code works. [20:24] * ubuntujenkins needs to learn string interpolation [20:26] String-formatting should generally be done via .format() or dictionaries, though, for sanity's sake in multi-developer environments. [20:26] not sure if it's worth it for something trivial like that [20:27] (Positionals are fine for quick hacks, but they're really hard to maintain) [20:27] "%(counter)i" % {'counter': counter,} [20:27] It's not much more code. [20:28] (The dictionary could span multiple lines, to improve readability. One definition per line) [20:28] I am not bothered about writing more code. I just need to learn how to do it. [20:28] But that'll be replaced in the future anyway, so... [20:29] % tells Python to use whatever comes afterwards (by convention, it's a tuple or a dictionary, but a single value is also acceptable) to fill in special patterns in the string. [20:29] I have 4 days set out after exams to do the gui layout etc. thats the plan. Then i go home back to ice age internet [20:29] %s -> string value; %i -> int value; %.3f -> floating-point number with three decimals... [20:29] It's pretty handy once you get used to it. [20:30] A lot like C's notation. [20:30] ok right I will make sure i look into it [20:30] Eh. You'll see it used a lot in my code. [20:30] to quote someone in #ubuntu " First , download Ubuntu Manual it's free and it's very catchy , then you can go for Linux in General" [20:30] (I like the dictionary method, but the Python language core favours .format()) [20:31] I have no preference strangely enough :) . I guess the dictionary means that each one is the same through out the program. so more consistant [20:31] Same thoughout the string* [20:32] ok right better do some uni work [20:32] Probably a good idea. [20:32] * flan should do what he's supposedly paid to do. [20:43] Eew... Audacity looks ugly under Lucid. [21:16] Hello! [21:16] Hey, humphreybc-cell [21:16] Hey, IlyaHaykinson [21:17] I'm on the bus back home [21:17] godbyk-sagan: Sagan? [21:17] humphreybc-cell: the name of my laptop. [21:18] hello humphreybc-cell [21:18] Gotcha. I just finished reading through the doc collaboration thread. Man! [21:18] humphreybc-cell: what do you think so far? [21:19] godbyk-sagan: I think I'm glad it's not me arguing anymore! [21:19] Hey Luke [21:20] Martin came into the thread with a hiss and a roar! [21:20] And then things got ugly. [21:20] I would like a uds catch up chat/meeting when you have time. I had loads of uni work that week [21:20] Haha [21:21] humphreybc-cell: flan = Red_hamsterx [21:21] I think Kevin and Ilya did well, though. [21:21] STOP SPOILING IT! [21:21] :( [21:21] >:( [21:21] Luke, sure thing. I'm gonna be pretty busy over the next couple of days though [21:21] flan: sorry people need to know who you are. people might think we have lost you [21:21] Flan hahaha you can never get away! [21:21] He alrady knows who I am, though. =P [21:22] ben no rush i have plenty to do [21:22] It came up last night. [21:22] 'Sides, I'm not going anywhere. [21:22] Yeah I was told last night [21:22] :) [21:22] UMP 4 lyf y'all [21:22] Collaborative projects are too much fun. [21:23] Anyway, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with Matt east :( [21:23] He's too [21:23] Gah [21:23] He's too barristy [21:24] He doesn't seem to be entirely unreachable... [21:24] He seems willing to collaborate. I think the big challenge will be in changing the ubuntu-docs culture a bit. [21:24] I wait with bated breath [21:25] godbyk-sagan: what's up [21:25] I'm pretty sure, based on what I've read, that if we can make the new site a reality, and make it easy for all of his work to be migrated over to it somehow, he'll relent. [21:25] I'm enjoying being a bystander [21:25] Though that'll be a pretty big task. [21:26] flan: everything we do is a pretty big task! [21:26] humphreybc-cell: we need to make sure that the docs team is on board with our changes, if we can [21:26] The QS server's looking pretty manageable now. =P [21:26] IlyaHaykinson: I agree. I think we have to make at least a good faith effort to collaborate. [21:26] not to say that we wait for them, but that we loop them in and make sure that we can include them in every step of the process [21:27] IlyaHaykinson: yeah. It'll be a bit hard to replace help [21:27] Crazy [21:27] Godmother [21:27] Fucking android, scuse French [21:27] lol [21:28] Why is send so close to delete? [21:29] Anyway, yeah, it'll be hard to replace help.ubuntu.com without their backing. Unless we just bypass them entirely lol [21:29] rather cheeky but does anyone have spotify premium and wouldn't mind sending me an invite please :) [21:29] Well, from what people have said, the manual's already being cited as a reliable source... [21:30] It's not like it'd be that hard to make an unofficial site a predominant one. [21:30] Not a good idea, but possibly a necessity. [21:30]