[16:19]  * nnonix throws tomatoes
[16:19] <nnonix> Getting Empathy to do IRC sucks.
[16:22] <bdunnette> nnonix: Funny, I'm perfectly content with Pidgin. :)
[16:23] <nnonix> I wasn't happy with pidgin either ... but Empathy has a UI bug that keeps you from adding IRC as the first account.
[16:24] <nnonix> ..... so it sucks MORE.
[16:24] <bdunnette> Cute.
[16:25] <bdunnette> IMO, Empathy's an example of Canonical's occasional "Latest and… no, wait, just latest" emphasis.
[16:25] <bdunnette> Like pushing out Getting Things Gnome as a "Featured Application" when it's still pretty flaky.
[16:28] <nnonix> How can it be "featured" if it's not installed by default?
[16:29] <bdunnette> If you open the Software Center, it's under the big, blaze-orange "Featured Applications" banner.
[16:30] <nnonix> Oh ... the Software Center .... I avoid that.
[16:30] <nnonix> Oh look at that.
[16:30] <bdunnette> Right, but I think it's the first place Linux newbies would look… and it might lead them into some shaky software.
[16:32] <nnonix> Never used GTG ... wouldn't know ... but if it really sucks, you would be correct.
[16:35] <bdunnette> No, it's not REALLY bad, but it's clearly still immature (like Empathy) — I'm willing to put up with some bugs, but not everyone may be, so seems silly to choose a less-stable default (Empathy).
[16:35] <nnonix> What was their reasoning .. video support?
[16:37] <nnonix> Ahh ... it replaced both pidgin & ekiga.
[16:38] <nnonix> and well ... aside from the UI bug with the first account ... Empathy appears to be working ok ... so far.
[16:39] <bdunnette> Right, but choosing a default that's "mostly OK" rather than an excellent, solid, cross-platform app still seems odd to me.
[16:39] <bdunnette> Yeah, maybe the video support was a deal-breaker for them.
[16:40] <nnonix> I understand ... change sucks especially when it affects you adversely.
[16:41] <nnonix> So what do we all think of the latest release of Macbuntu?
[16:41] <nnonix> .... and it's purpley goodness/badness.
[16:43] <bdunnette> MacBuntu?
[16:44] <nnonix> The new theme and button movement.
[16:55] <nnonix> I thought the decision to move the windows buttons to the left was fine ... their choice .. but to do so without providing an easy way to move them back to the right (considering some 90% of computer users expect them on the right) was pretty dumb.
[16:55] <nnonix> ... not very considerate.
[16:58] <rlaager> nnonix: You can move them back with gconf-editor. It's not the easiest, but I'm sure by now there are a million blog posts on the Internet that give you the steps (or single terminal command).
[16:59] <rlaager> Plus, they don't *want* to allow you to move them back, as they intend to use the space they freed up for other widgets. If you move them back, then what happens?
[16:59] <rlaager> I thought it was arbitrary (and thus dumb) until I found out the future plans.
[17:00] <nnonix> Their future plans need to support those who move the buttons back to the right.
[17:00] <Obsidian1723> heh good luck with that
[17:01] <nnonix> I support their right to make changes ... but expect them to be considerate.
[17:03] <nnonix> ... so much for my expectations.
[17:03] <Obsidian1723> yeah, well Canonoical will do what it wants - like Microsoft.
[17:03] <rlaager> Honestly, having the buttons on the left isn't that big of a deal.
[17:04] <Obsidian1723> yeah, it is.
[17:04] <nnonix> Well I'll give you this ... we all have one less reason not to buy a mac.
[17:04] <Obsidian1723> Don't move the cheese. Don't change the living room
[17:05] <Obsidian1723> Mac is more proprietary than Windows... more reason to NOT use a Mac.
[17:05] <rlaager> WTF? At least the kernel and the command line tools on the Mac are Free.
[17:05] <Obsidian1723> can you copmpile OS X from source?
[17:06] <rlaager> No. You can compile the kernel and most of the command line tools from source. Can you compile any part of Windows from source?
[17:06] <nnonix> I just said "one less reason". There are still reasons.
[17:08] <Obsidian1723> :D
[17:08] <Obsidian1723> What Canonical has done is given Windoers users one more reason NOT to move ti Linux.
[17:11] <Obsidian1723> Out of all operating systems, onlyu Mac OS X and Ubuntu 10x use that funky left method. Joe 6pack who DOES move to Ubuntu, isn't going to want to gconf the edit to "fix" it :(
[17:11] <Obsidian1723> Sad, but true.
[17:12] <Obsidian1723> My box's HDD died, I had to replace the drive and I am using Lucid on the desktop (no upgrades) and on the latop now (with upgrades - which made it bogged down), so Lucid has some more work needed on it.
[17:13] <Obsidian1723> Sorry if Im a bit jaded, it's just MANY people screamed over the move and Canonical refuses to listen and ignores the community of users, plus NOT listening to what people want seems oppisite of the Ubuntu mantra of "Humanity to others".
[17:13] <Obsidian1723> Its bass ackwards
[17:16] <nnonix> They thing is, they want to have notifications on the right some time in the future .... so they move the window buttons to the left now ... which I think is dumb ..... simply because it seems arbitrary. If the buttons moved to the left once the notification system is in place ... then people could easily see the reasoning.
[17:16] <bdunnette> Yeah, it's annoying that they changed it… but I still don't think it's the deal-breaker you do (having the "Applications" menu at the top-left, instead of "Start" on the lower left, seems much more disruptive to Windows vets…)
[17:17] <bdunnette> But I'm with nnonix: the Apple-style "trust us, you'll love it!" response is a bit off-putting.
[17:17] <nnonix> bdunnette: true
[17:18] <bdunnette> All right, Obsidian1723: I nominate you to head a federal bureau that will define all UI standards.
[17:18] <nnonix> lol
[17:18] <bdunnette> Anyone caught moving the cheese will be taken out back and shot. :)
[17:18] <bdunnette> I'll join you in the Department of Cheese Monitoring, FWIW.
[17:19] <Obsidian1723> YES!!!
[17:19] <Obsidian1723> I am MOTUI - Master Of The User Interface.
[17:19] <nnonix> So, who's got an Android phone?? I'm loving mine.
[17:19] <Obsidian1723> Ja vohl
[17:19] <Obsidian1723> Not me. I would like one though...
[17:19] <bdunnette> Seriously, though, I think this illustrates what's good about Open Source: if you don't like the GNOME changes… just use KDE.
[17:19] <Obsidian1723> Dude at FGTC has one
[17:20] <Obsidian1723> b - exactly
[17:20] <bdunnette> Obsidian1723: We had 4 at a recent meeting. :)
[17:20] <Obsidian1723> Only biatch with that isw KDE uses more overhead than Gnome.
[17:20] <Obsidian1723> NICE!!
[17:20] <nnonix> KDE kpisses kme koff kwith kall kits kbuttons.
[17:20] <Obsidian1723> Onced I close on the house, I will get that router up and going etc too.
[17:20] <bdunnette> nnonix: Then use LXDE, or XFCE, or...
[17:20] <Obsidian1723> ki khear kthat
[17:21] <Obsidian1723> Anyone ever use Moon OS?
[17:21] <bdunnette> Point being: choice is good, and unless you're the one coding the UI, it's not gonna be perfect for you.
[17:21] <Obsidian1723> True..
[17:21] <Obsidian1723> I did hear that GNOME 30 WILL support the GNOME 2x panels, the "old" look to.
[17:21] <Obsidian1723> Which is cool.
[17:21] <Obsidian1723> 3.0
[17:22] <bdunnette> Yeah, that's a nice concession to those of us used to the "old" look.
[17:22] <Obsidian1723> yeah...
[17:22] <Obsidian1723> I prefer it actually.
[17:22] <bdunnette> Though I do like what I've seen/used of gnome-shell.
[17:22] <Obsidian1723> Hey did I tell ya? I converted my borther's kid's PC
[17:22] <bdunnette> Sweet!
[17:22] <Obsidian1723> The HDD died, so I replaced it, set them up with it
[17:22] <Obsidian1723> One parent account w/full access and one kid's account locked down.
[17:23] <Obsidian1723> I hoipe to convert the entire house over to it.
[17:23] <bdunnette> Yeah, that's what I did for my niece & nephew.
[17:23] <bdunnette> But the parents keep freaking out and asking for Windows.
[17:23] <Obsidian1723> I try and convert people over from Windows because it's less repeat work fixing the same old crapola.
[17:23] <bdunnette> Indeed.
[17:23] <Obsidian1723> I dont like fixing the same old users.
[17:24] <bdunnette> Especially for parents, I think the access control's better… and they can even put e.g. DansGuardian on it for filtering, if they want.
[17:25] <Obsidian1723> yeah, I used Pessulkuys
[17:25] <Obsidian1723> pessulus
[17:25] <Obsidian1723> Of course you really need it at the router level, so if they use a compatible router, like a WRT54G, I reflash it with DD-WRT
[17:25] <Obsidian1723> or recommend pfSense.
[17:25] <bdunnette> Hmm, nice… we should try that the next time FGTC sends out a "kiosk" system; we just did the last one by hand.
[17:26] <Obsidian1723> on a 2 NIC PC
[17:26] <bdunnette> Right.
[17:26] <Obsidian1723> pessulus and iceweasel make for a GREAT kioisk
[17:26] <Obsidian1723> oh.. once we move to 10.04.1LTS, we need to install iptables-persistent
[17:26] <Obsidian1723> nice to have :D
[17:28] <bdunnette> Hmm… is there any point to it unless you've already set up iptables rules?
[17:30] <Obsidian1723> yes
[17:30] <Obsidian1723> iptables by default doesnt stick on reboot.
[17:30] <Obsidian1723> You can do a workaround to make it stick, whioch I did under earlier versions
[17:30] <Obsidian1723> basically under the old way, you just reload the iptables.rules document at startup
[17:32] <bdunnette> Right, I get that… but is there a certain (default) set of iptables rules it'll load?
[17:34] <bdunnette> I mean, it's useful mainly on any machine that's actually acting as a firewall, right?  Or are you suggesting every desktop have some iptables setup?
[17:34] <bdunnette> Or does it already?
[17:37] <Obsidian1723> It does not by default, you need to sudo iptables enable
[17:37] <Obsidian1723> I think yes, firewall at the router level, but also firewall the desktop
[17:37] <Obsidian1723> www.nmap-online.,com try that once
[17:38] <nnonix> sudo apt-get purchase R1200GS Adventure
[17:38] <nnonix> sudo apt-get vacation 30 days in Alaska
[17:38] <Obsidian1723> I scanned my box, all that was open is port 113
[17:38] <Obsidian1723> which is ident
[17:40] <bdunnette> Ah, so you want to deny all incoming traffic?
[17:40] <bdunnette> Doesn't that conflict with your desire to have e.g. VPNs work out-of-the-box?
[17:40] <bdunnette> Not that it's a bad idea, security-wise...
[17:42] <bdunnette> Maybe something like http://gufw.tuxfamily.org/ plus iptables-persistent would be a good recommendation?
[17:57] <Obsidian1723> I think so.
[17:57] <Obsidian1723> good call :D
[18:08] <nnonix> I'd like to see some serious Gmail/Google Apps integration. MeMenu, default mail client, etc.
[18:08] <nnonix> Hell, other services as well.
[18:18] <Obsidian1723> not so much for the Google apps, they, like Facebook, are anti-privacy.,
[18:19] <Obsidian1723> Not to mention Google may get investigatged for sniffing wifi.
[18:22] <Obsidian1723> but atleast Google doesnt break into your house like Apple does.
[18:29] <bdunnette> I'd just like something more light-weight for calendar and mail notification than Evolution.
[18:32] <Obsidian1723> yeah
[21:50] <nnonix> Well name your service, but it should be easy to integrate them into Gnome. Default mail, notifications, etc.