[00:41] <c7p> godbyk: Typically a screeshot is on the top of the page and then the text follows. Is there any problem if I move some text before screenshot (actually put the screenshot after a paragraph that is slit by it)
[00:45] <c7p> split*
[01:03] <c7p> godbyk: When you find some time, send me an e-mail about what can we do about the "movement" of screenshots. Some screenshots have to be placed after some paragraphs or even on different pages... (I have sent you 1-2 mails on your gmail so I guess you have my e-mail address :D)
[01:03] <c7p> long day .... night all
[02:54] <flan> Finally home.
[02:55]  * flan hax test code.
[03:02] <flan> Bleh. I forgot to push my Quickshot commits from work.
[04:19] <flan> Website leaf naming convention: nouns or verbs?
[04:20] <flan> (index/list_projects, screenshot/upload)
[04:20] <flan> Anyone with substantial development experience have a preference?
[04:21] <flan> Or is it generally fine to just use whatever makes sense?
[04:57]  * flan went with nouns.
[04:59] <flan> Next design thing: construct archives in-memory or on-disk?
[05:00] <flan> Actually, I can't do it in-memory, so that's a non-issue.
[05:03] <flan> Ooh. I can combine the tempfile module and the tarfile module. Yay for Python.
[05:04] <humphreybc> lol
[05:05] <humphreybc> I'm enjoying just watching you talk to yourself
[05:06] <flan> I think better when I've convinced people care about my musings.
[05:06] <flan> I'm*
[05:35] <flan> URL mapping rules defined. Now for sleep.
[05:35] <flan> (I can actually start playing with templating and data tomorrow! Yay!)
[08:19]  * humphreybc is super tired
[08:29] <czajkowski> humphreybc: ping
[08:32] <humphreybc> czajkowski: ello
[15:02] <flan> ubuntujenkins, after a bit of reflecting, I kinda think it might make more sense to go with reStructuredText for documentation, after all. We're not building a library, so the main benefits of epytext would be lost, and Pylons, which I'm using for the server, auto-generates reST stubs everywhere, in addition to using it as the project-encompasing document template standard.
[15:04] <ubuntujenkins> flan: that fine by me can you mail the list and update this page please
[15:04] <ubuntujenkins> ?style
[15:04] <quickshotdevs> The Quickshot code base tries to follow some conventions  a list of them is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/style .
[15:04] <flan> I will. I was kinda hoping you'd link to that so I wouldn't have to go looking. :)
[15:05] <ubuntujenkins> no probelm the bot currently has these commands
[15:05] <ubuntujenkins> ?help
[15:05] <quickshotdevs> Useage: +<factoid> Examples: +website , +blueprint , +qssource , +involved , +question , +style , +use , +ppa , +quickshot , +code , +launchpad , +bug
[15:06] <ubuntujenkins> except its not a + any more i need to change that its now ? people +1 ing was confusing it
[15:06] <flan> Launchpad is an OpenID provider? Weird...
[15:11] <thorwil> flan: so Pylons is to your liking? found any stumbling blocks?
[15:20] <flan> I accidentally sent my first response directly to you, Luke. Please ignore my momentary stupid.
[15:20] <flan> I'm liking it more as I read through its reference documentation, but I've yet to actually start gluing its pieces together, thorwil.
[15:20] <flan> I'll be able to answer you this weekend.
[15:20] <flan> Or maybe today.
[15:21] <thorwil> cool
[15:21] <flan> Since I plan to make the first connection between controller, template, and data-model soon.
[15:21] <flan> It's looking pretty awesome, though.
[15:21] <flan> As far as providing a flexible framework with enough standards to allow for collaboarative development goes, anyway.
[15:24] <thorwil> i wonder if https://fedorahosted.org/moksha/, which adds to turbogears (which adds to pylons) will be useful. it seems it's too early, no adoption yet at all
[15:25] <flan> This is a pretty simple system, really. Pylons, by itself, seems more than capable of handling it.
[15:25] <flan> (I also want to keep dependencies light)
[15:25] <flan> (Since this needs to run on one of our webhosts)
[15:26] <flan> (While mine is super-Python-friendly, godby-k's is a little more conservative)
[15:26] <flan> (I can easily handle the traffic for 10.10, though, if it comes to that)
[15:29] <thorwil> it's quite sad how virtually every hoster supports php, but python? i found some who just list it as checkmark item somewhere, with no version and no word aboust wsgi. if at all
[15:30] <godbyk-sagan> thorwil: I agree.
[15:30] <godbyk-sagan> my host doesn't have good wsgi support, it seems.
[15:30] <godbyk-sagan> (at least from what I've gathered)
[15:32] <flan> It has wsgi support as a side-effect of a Rails module.
[15:32] <flan> Which is good enough.
[15:32] <flan> But it's not very happy-making.
[15:32] <flan> Mine used to have the name "python-hosting.com", though.
[15:32] <flan> Which is the main reason I looked at them.
[15:33] <rickspencer3> Hi all
[15:33]  * flan makes decisions based on poor information.
[15:33] <flan> Hi, you.
[15:33] <ubuntujenkins> hello rickspencer3
[15:34] <godbyk-sagan> flan: true, but I don't know how good it actually is.
[15:35] <rickspencer3> I'm working on the application developer manual blueprint
[15:35] <flan> I read into it a bit before deciding to actually use Pylons, after thorwil's initial recommendation.
[15:35] <flan> It looks like it works reliably and reasonably efficiently.
[15:35] <flan> Nobody was complaining and there were a number of guides on setting it up.
[15:36] <flan> I'm going to try to be as aggressive as possible with memory-management, though.
[15:36] <flan> (Whether that means using disk for caching stuff or tuning the GC in some way)
[15:37] <flan> But, again, worst-case, I can host this thing easily. And the public site will be written in PHP, since it'll be all-static, with the exception of its bulletin-board thing.
[15:38] <flan> So that can easily live on your host.
[15:39] <rickspencer3> can you guys help me out with the bluerprint?
[15:39] <rickspencer3> I'm trying to figure out what tasks I'll need to do as editor of the manual
[15:39] <rickspencer3> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-m-opportunistic-developer-manual
[15:51] <flan> A critical sense of judgment about what constitutes a best-practice approach and what tools are best-suited to accomplising tasks would be valuable.
[15:52] <flan> i.e., not recommending Perl for cases where readability and maintainability are important (things that would likely be better-served by Python) and not recommending building an application framework from scratch when well-established frameworks exist that already do all of the common work.
[15:54] <flan> Probably just knowing enough about available tools and technologies to correct the writers when they provide outdated information or repeat myths.
[15:55] <flan> Is that the sort of thing you're wondering about?
[16:28] <flan> rickspencer3, Dive Into Python has fallen out of favour (though I'd still recommend it to some people).
[16:28] <ubuntujenkins> flan http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/daily-digest-windicator-mock-ups.html the e-mail is out :)
[16:29] <flan> I can't remember what's currently popular, but you can find it in the topic of #python.
[16:29] <flan> (I'm not in there because I get distracted far too easily)
[16:30] <flan> Ooh. Windicator looks like a good use of the new whitepsace.
[16:30] <flan> Lawl, me making typos.
[16:30] <flan> Told you I'd miss something.
[16:39] <rickspencer3> flan, yeah, I'm working on the work items now
[17:10] <ChrisWoollard> Hey all. How are you.
[17:11] <ubuntujenkins> hello, I am good you?
[17:11] <ChrisWoollard> Ok.
[17:12] <ChrisWoollard> I feel I have not really been on irc much recently
[17:13] <ChrisWoollard> I haven't really paid much attention to what hasbeen going on.
[17:14] <flan> I've seen your namy many times, without actually knowing who you are.
[17:14] <flan> (I recently nickchanged from Red_HamsterX; I'm some Quickshot guy)
[17:17] <ChrisWoollard> Hello
[17:17] <flan> Hi.
[17:18] <ChrisWoollard> I guess I am some Translation / whatever I can do kind of guy.
[17:19] <ChrisWoollard> Why the change from Red_Hamster
[17:19] <flan> It was awkward and silly.
[17:19] <flan> (This handle was taken, though)
[17:20] <ChrisWoollard> I guess it isn't now
[17:20] <flan> Nope.
[17:20] <flan> Just telling you who I am, in case you've been lurking.
[17:21] <ChrisWoollard> Lurking....   That sounds scary
[17:23] <flan> It just means someone who watches a discussion without participating.
[17:26] <ChrisWoollard> I do like to participate. I have just been busy recently
[17:27] <flan> Oh, I'm not trying to imply anything.
[17:27] <flan> I'm just trying to minimize confusion.
[17:27] <flan> And failing.
[17:27]  * flan fails a lot.
[17:28] <ChrisWoollard> Never mind. I often find confusion occurs a lot while writing.
[17:38] <flan> Summary: I used to be someone else. You did not know who I was. Therefore, no knowledge needs to be ported from one identity to another.
[17:39] <ChrisWoollard> Summary: I was aware of you, so knowing about the name change was useful.
[17:42] <ChrisWoollard> Just out of interest. What happened to the UK translation of the manual again. It appears that the  translations have changed again to "NNeeds Review"..... again....
[17:43] <ubuntujenkins> iirc there was a reason it happend but i can't remeber what it was
[17:43] <flan> Unfortunately, I don't know anything about how translations states work. :(
[17:43] <flan> -s
[17:43] <quickshotdevs> flan: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
[17:44]  * ubuntujenkins gggrrr silly bot
[17:45] <ChrisWoollard> I remember that godbyk fixed it last time.
[17:46] <ChrisWoollard> I do also vaguely remember that there is a bug that Humphrybc has going to talk to the launchpad devs about at uds
[17:46] <flan> I think that bug was addressed.
[17:46] <flan> Whatever it was.
[17:47] <flan> Someone announced that some Launchpad issue was fixed following a UDS discussion and then people cheered.
[17:47] <ubuntujenkins> I thought the tempoary fix to that bug was to disable po editing and not allow manual imports
[17:47] <ChrisWoollard> That sounds about right
[17:48] <flan> Or my memory's broken.
[17:48]  * flan shouldn't comment on things that don't directly affect him.
[17:48] <ChrisWoollard> It could also be my memory that is broken.
[17:48] <ubuntujenkins> or mine :)
[17:49] <ChrisWoollard> Bottom line though. Something has made it happen again
[17:49] <ubuntujenkins> hhmm
[17:50] <ChrisWoollard> I guess I will mention it to Godbyk when he turns up
[18:09] <dutchie> o/
[18:34] <flan> Hi, dutchie.
[19:04] <dutchie> thorwil: re he-mark, err, what?
[19:16] <thorwil> dutchie: it's an exercise in restraint and seriousness
[19:17] <dutchie> thorwil: what's with the darth vader-alike in the background?
[19:18] <thorwil> dutchie: like i wrote on the blog, a koala-skeletor didn't work
[19:20] <dutchie> ha
[19:25] <flan> But Skeletor always wins!
[20:12] <thorwil> i hate sony music, but it was not very wise of Ben to use some of "their" music for his UDS video
[20:14] <flan> "their" referring to which label?
[20:14]  * flan hasn't watched it.
[20:16] <thorwil> sony
[20:39] <thorwil> godbyk-sagan: http://www.advogato.org/person/raph/diary.html?start=420
[20:43] <flan> Ooh. More fonts.
[21:37]  * ubuntujenkins likes it now the channel has a few more people in again
[21:42] <ubuntujenkins> flan: as a wish list item for this release if we have time I would quite like to add apport support.  This does tie us into 'buntu distros, may be we can add it as a option in the build. I am looking into how hard it is etc. It would make bug reports easier. What is your opinion on this?
[21:43] <dutchie> you can always patch it in to the ubuntu client
[21:43] <dutchie> lots of already-existing packages do that iirc
[21:44] <ubuntujenkins> it looks like it is easy to do, only a handful of lines of code. I think it would make life easier.
[21:45] <ubuntujenkins> When people submit bugs there is a list of things that would help us with it but people don't always read it.
[22:03] <flan> We're going to be maintaining Ubuntu/UMP-specific patches. Making it part of the .deb build process should be pretty easy.
[22:04] <flan> (I've added patches against .debs on the Debian side before)
[22:04] <ubuntujenkins> cool, we also have to do a make file i guess
[22:04] <flan> (It was generally just a matter of making sure the patches were in the right directories and indexed in the serial application file)
[22:05] <flan> We'll worry about that when we get to it. :)
[22:05] <flan> I'm sure there are other packages we can leech from.
[22:05] <flan> (I've never actually done a Python makefile before, but they aren't so bad for C)
[22:05] <ubuntujenkins> good, I have never done any patching stuff. I think this will be another steap learning curve :)
[22:05] <flan> Patching's easy. =P
[22:05] <dutchie> generally you use distutils for python
[22:05] <flan> bzr branch, hack stuff, bzr diff > patch
[22:05] <dutchie> rather than make
[22:06] <flan> Yeah.
[22:06] <flan> But ubuntujenkins is the only one of us who's built a .deb from scratch.
[22:06] <flan> As far as I know.
[22:06] <flan> I've just altered existing ones.
[22:06] <dutchie> i think i have. once. a long time ago
[22:07] <ubuntujenkins> I tend to cheet and use quicklys help there is abit of hacking needed on it.
[22:07] <ubuntujenkins> Do we want to packages the server?
[22:07] <ubuntujenkins> I have learnt allot about packaging what with the latex ppa
[22:08] <flan> I'm not sure how well packaging the server would work.
[22:09] <flan> I've seen a few PHP-based systems packaged and it's always been awkward to configure them.
[22:09] <flan> Or, actually, no, that's just been the ones packaged by third parties.
[22:09] <flan> We could probably use the Wikimedia packages or something as a reference.
[22:10] <flan> I'll restructure the directories a bit once I have something working, to try to make that a viable idea.
[22:10] <ubuntujenkins> I don't know it was just an out loud thought. It does rely on people having a "standard" setup
[22:10] <flan> As for apport itself, I think that'd be a really good idea.
[22:10] <flan> I hate the thought of bugs going unreported due to users being overwhelmed or too busy.
[22:11] <flan> And Ubuntu's our main focus, so we might as well make use of its features to make out stuff better.
[22:11] <ubuntujenkins> yea and it doesn't look like much work aprox 10 - 20 lines if i understand it right
[22:11] <flan> I'm guessing it's just a top-level exception-grabber.
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> basically we have to get it to grab log files so, quickhsot must make a log file in /var/logs
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> thats my understanding of it atm
[22:14] <flan> Got a link?
[22:14] <ubuntujenkins> I spend 5 mins looking. emm handon ...
[22:15] <ubuntujenkins> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Apport/DeveloperHowTo
[22:17] <flan> I think you misunderstood that part (which is good for us, 'cause it means we don't have to mess with /var/logs unless we have to)
[22:17] <ubuntujenkins> ok i didn't read it properly i did skim it :)
[22:17] <flan> The example is just adding the contents of a logfile to the report that'll be submitted.
[22:18] <flan> But it's cool that it can do things like that, since it means we can add whatever we want to the report.
[22:18] <flan> Which means we can probably implement some sort of step-tracer in the design.
[22:18] <flan> Like an in-memory log.
[22:19] <flan> Every time the user advances through a dialogue box or clicks something, we could log that event, like what we were doing with the --debug flag in 0.0.8.
[22:19] <ubuntujenkins> thats what i was going to ask about
[22:19] <flan> If it dies, we could just attach that thing as a big string.
[22:20] <flan> And then trace every single step.
[22:20] <ubuntujenkins> I think this would be good in so many ways
[22:20] <flan> Agreed.
[22:20] <flan> Excellent idea.
[22:20]  * ubuntujenkins adds it to the todo list
[22:21] <flan> Must-have.
[22:21] <ubuntujenkins> added it to my list
[22:22] <ubuntujenkins> I am liking tracks for my organising
[22:22] <flan> I'm still working off of http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> I think ther si a page on the wiki ....
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> ?plan
[22:23] <quickshotdevs> Factoid 'plan' not found
[22:23] <ubuntujenkins> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/next-release-plan
[22:25] <flan> Oh, but it looks like the hook doesn't share memory with the client...
[22:26] <flan> (i.e., it's launched externally)
[22:26] <flan> (Which is kinda good, in that it means we won't need to change our core code to make use of it)
[22:27] <flan> We'll probably have to write a per-session activity log to .quickshot/debug/log or something, then.
[22:27] <ubuntujenkins> thats a good place to put it
[22:32] <ubuntujenkins> this happended to be in my inbox https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek1001/DetailingBugs
[22:35] <daker> hello @all
[22:35] <ubuntujenkins> hey daker
[22:37] <flan> I've been interested in Apport for a while, but I do most of my development projects with ultra-conservative Debian as a target platform, so...
[22:37] <ubuntujenkins> this will be a fun to add
[22:38] <flan> It'll be well worth however long it takes.
[22:38] <flan> (And, as you said, it looks easy)
[22:39] <ubuntujenkins> I agree
[22:41] <flan> Wait, what? SunK's in Calgary, too?
[22:47] <SunK> hey flan
[22:47] <SunK> yeah I'm
[22:47]  * flan was formerly known as Red_HamsterX.
[22:47] <flan> (I finally got this name freed up)
[22:47] <ubuntujenkins> wow two people on the quickshot  team in the same place
[22:47] <flan> Yeah. Kinda strange.
[22:48] <flan> But Calgary's a big place.
[22:48]  * flan answers the looming question first.
[22:48] <flan> Midnapore.
[22:51] <SunK> i'm new to Calgary
[22:51] <SunK> use to live in Vancouver
[22:51] <SunK> used*
[22:52] <flan> That doesn't tell me what part of the city you live in. :(
[22:52] <flan> How am I supposed to mock you now?
[22:53] <SunK> haha Panorama Hills
[22:53] <flan> ...Well, I can't really mock that.
[22:53] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: in fairness, we're not *that* far apart
[22:54] <ubuntujenkins> true dutchie, I wich i could have gone to ogg camp
[22:54] <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: next one may be down south
[22:54] <ubuntujenkins> I am on placemnet next year so i have a car. So fingers crossed I may make it