/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/20/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

legreffierhello!00:09
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aday_anybody here for ayatana ux?13:04
godbykI am.13:05
aday_that's two ;)13:05
godbykI know that humphreybc said he wouldn't be able to make it to today's meeting.13:05
godbykI haven't heard anything about any of the others, though.13:05
aday_it might not be the best week for it13:07
cjohnstono/13:07
godbykHey, cjohnston.13:07
cjohnstonhey13:07
aday_seems like there's a few of us here. are there any burning issues to be discussed?!13:12
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godbykWell, here's our list of potential activities: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux13:14
godbyk(Re-reading mpt's email it looks like he's out this week at a conference.)13:14
godbykIf anyone has any ideas to add to the list at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux, feel free.  We'll apparently discuss them at next week's meeting.13:14
aday_godbyk: cool13:15
aday_i guess the only ongoing issue is mpt's mail to the ayatana list. not much of a response there, unfortunately13:16
godbykyeah, I only saw one review.13:16
godbykbut to be honest, I haven't been paying too close attention to the ayatana@ mailing list lately.13:16
godbykthere's been a lot of email, but most of it appears to be a collection of opinions.13:17
cjohnstonagreed ^13:17
godbykI'd love to see posts that contain opinions derived from some principles or opinions derived from data, but that doesn't appear to be happening at the moment.13:18
aday_i was hoping to find some time to add to the review13:19
aday_lead by example, so to speak13:19
godbykRight.13:20
godbykI've been pretty busy lately. I just started a new job, so I'm trying to sort through things there. Hopefully it'll settle down soon so I can get back to some Ubuntu stuff.13:20
aday_i'm pretty busy too13:21
aday_one thing that could help with this ui review would be to make it more visual. people respond to pictures :)13:21
godbykAgreed.13:22
aday_think it would be ok to set up a project page on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/13:24
aday_?13:24
godbykI don't know yet.13:26
godbykI think Ayatana and Ayatana UX are two different things.13:26
godbykMight wait and talk to mpt about it first.13:26
aday_godbyk: ok13:27
aday_i've got to run. see you all next week :)13:36
cjohnstono/13:36
godbyksee ya, aday_!13:36
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MrChrisHello all14:39
MrChrisis anyone here?14:40
MrChrishellp?14:42
MrChrishello*14:42
cjohnston?14:55
jledbetter_Hi MrChris15:09
MrChrishello jledbetter_15:09
MrChrisi am here for the meeting.15:09
jledbetter_Which one?15:09
mhall119I'm here for all of them, doesn't matter which15:12
MrChrisWebsite theme meeting15:12
MrChristhis is the email i got15:12
MrChrisHello, I just wanted to send a quick reminder that we'll be having our meeting shortly. It will be at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode. I hope you can attend, but for those who cannot I'll write up some minutes and send them to the list and also post them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/NewBrandLaunchMeeting.15:12
MrChrisi received this email at 11:36PM GMT+10:0015:13
stas!date15:15
stashttp://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx looks like there are about 2 more hours15:16
jturekI see in Evolution for some reason its showing the meeting as starting now as well,  must the the fridge,ubuntu calendar has the wrong timezone set15:18
Joeb454i was under the impression 1600 UTC is now15:19
Joeb454given I'm in BST, which is 1 hour behind UTC, unless I'm mistaken15:20
MrChrispeople can also look at http://www.timeanddate.com15:22
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Ddorda_ntbkthe website there meeting is in one hour, right?16:03
MTecknologyDdorda_ntbk: yup16:08
popeyJoeb454: BST is one hour ahead of UTC16:09
Ddorda_ntbkMTecknology: cool, i'll be here :)16:12
MTecknologyDdorda_ntbk: sounds good16:13
Ddorda_ntbkMTecknology: you're doing the meeting?16:13
ronnie_vd_cwhen starts https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/NewBrandLaunchMeeting. thought that 16:00 UTC == 17:00GMT+116:13
MTecknologyDdorda_ntbk: nope16:14
popey1600 UTC roughly == 1600 GMT16:15
popeybut UK is in BST which is GMT+116:15
popeyronnie_vd_c: in 45 minutes16:15
thekorndate -u  helps alot ;)16:16
Crewsr3Does anyone know of a good website that would make it easy to convert UTC to my own time zone16:17
popeyhttp://www.timeanddate.com16:17
popeyor just run date -u as thekorn suggests16:17
ronnie_vd_caccording to the website, it starts 16:00 UTC. im from the netherlands (GMT+1) and it is 17:00. Am i calculating something wrong? (have a bad inet connection)16:17
popeyThu May 20 15:18:35 UTC 201016:18
popey^^^ the time now16:18
popeyso in 42 mins, the meeting will start16:18
Crewsr3Thanks popey16:18
ronnie_vd_ca i think i know the problem. in the netherlands we have summer and winter time. winter is normal GMT+1 and summer is GMT+216:19
Joeb454popey: thanks, I always get confused :)16:19
popeyeveryone should live in UTC :)16:20
MrChrispopey: then the world would be boring...16:21
popeyit would be quieter16:21
ronnie_vd_cpopey: not practical, if it is dark at 10AM ;)16:22
popeypffft16:22
Joeb454popey, i try to live in UTC, but it does get difficult at times :p16:22
MrChrisi agree with ronnie_vd_c16:22
ronnie_vd_caltough, why not. just start working at 6AM instead of 8AM. eat at 4PM instead of 6PM. The day stays the same, only the notation is shifted 1 or 2 hours.16:30
MTecknologyronnie_vd_c: why doesn't the whole world just use the exact same timeof day at all times?16:31
MTecknologyronnie_vd_c: it started back when people set their time based on the rising sun; once railroads came into existance, crashes happened because time wasn't standardized, so they made time zones16:35
* ronnie_vd_c hopes that the inet will be fixed before 16:0016:41
* newz2000 too16:44
sorenronnie_vd_c: The internet is broken?16:48
ronnie_vd_cyes16:49
ronnie_vd_ccurrently on neighbour wireless16:49
sorenI'm sorry to hear that.16:49
sorenOh. /Your/ internet is broken :)16:49
sorenI'm much calmer now.16:49
ronnie_vd_clol16:49
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afterlastangeldo I join too early?16:55
ronnie_vd_c4 minutes ;)16:56
MrChrishow much longer until the meeting?16:56
ronnie_vd_c3 minutes i guess16:57
afterlastangelI the schedule is 1 hours16:57
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afterlastangelOur server at ubuntu-vn.org is currently down,I think we could find another server for the new theme of homepage16:59
newz2000Hello, give me about 90 seconds and then we'll start17:00
MrChrisok17:00
mat_t8917:01
mat_t8817:01
afterlastangel:D17:01
mat_t8717:01
afterlastangel!spam17:01
mat_t;)17:01
MrChris:o17:01
mat_t3417:02
newz2000Lets go17:02
MrChrisok...17:02
newz2000Good day everyone, I'm Matthew Nuzum, the ubuntu.com and canonical.com webmaster17:02
newz2000I'm a Canonical employee serving in this capacity for 4 years and before that was an enthusiastic member of the Ubuntu community17:03
afterlastangelhi17:03
mongolito404Hi17:03
newz2000I'm joined by mat_t who has been one of the pioneers of the Canonical Design team and has contributed in many highly visible ways to make Ubuntu as beautiful as it is today17:03
MrChrisFor that which I am greatful... :)17:04
mhall119hi newz200017:04
mat_thi guys, great to be here :)17:04
newz2000Today's meeting is about community web themes17:04
newz2000You have probably seen the work at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand217:04
newz2000relating to the new branding and designs17:05
newz2000And I know that many of you are eager to see this in real life, on the ubuntu website17:05
newz2000and also maybe on your community team's website17:05
newz2000I know I'm eager to see it. :-)17:05
* stas :)17:05
newz2000I want to give you an update on how that's going17:06
newz2000Canonical's design team, my team (marketing) and a contracted drupal agency are hard at work bringing this to life17:06
* MrChris is eager to buy some of the Ubuntu 10.04 merchandise.17:06
* ronnie_vd_c can't wait ;)17:06
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newz2000It's in testing now. I've seen it and played with it.17:06
newz2000And I have to say, it looks marevelous17:06
* MrChris agrees...17:07
newz2000Soon you too will get to see it. How soon depends on a few things, mostly related to testing and bug fixes17:07
* akgraner can't wait to see it.... (I'm so excited)17:07
mhall119newz2000: how about Wordpress and Django themes?17:07
newz2000Its not going to be today or tomorrow… we have a little time yet.17:07
newz2000mhall119: good question, that's actually why we're here17:08
mhall119or just a plain HTML version that can be used to make other themes17:08
afterlastangel:D17:08
mhall119oh cool, I'll sit back and be patient then :)17:08
newz2000I know that you all would love to have your site launch at the exact time that Ubuntu.com's launches17:08
MrChrisWordpress themes can be adapted from HTML coding.17:08
afterlastangelor maybe the update of drupal-ubuntu17:08
newz2000I'm afraid we're not going to make that easy on you...17:08
MrChris:(17:08
newz2000But I want to do the next best thing17:08
MrChris:)17:09
akgraner:-( teases  :-P17:09
akgraner:-D17:09
newz2000This is where I mention the web presence team17:09
mongolito404ubuntu-drupal's has already a new theme matching the new brand17:09
newz2000mongolito404: let me point out that the stuff posted to the wiki is not final. The final theme has devited from that a bit.17:09
echowarpmongolito404: i wouldn't say matching. It fits though.17:09
newz2000But lets come back to that, OK?17:10
MTecknologynewz2000: that was ideal iirc?17:10
newz2000The web presence team is a group of people who want to make Ubuntu better by using their web skills.17:10
newz2000If this describes you, you should be part of the team.17:10
* MrChris wants to be part of this team.17:10
newz2000https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website for more details17:10
* MrChris has some knowledge in php and plenty in HTML17:11
newz2000We have an interesting opportunity with the new designs17:11
newz2000What we have with the community themes is in some ways less than ideal17:11
newz2000For one, we have a lot of fragmentation and duplication of work17:11
MrChriswhich needs to be soughted and the copies eliminated.17:12
newz2000This has caused there to be many themes with great variances of quality17:12
newz2000I'd like for us to coordinate our efforts to work together as the web presence team to create some themes for the community to use17:12
drubinnewz2000: Sorry but the reason for this is the lack of openness and untimely fassion that canonical have released the new themes..17:12
newz2000drubin: we're trying to chagne that. This is our chance.17:13
rowinggolfernewz2000: (newbie question) what license are all the branding images release under?17:13
newz2000rowinggolfer: getting there17:13
MrChrisnewz2000: would it not be GNU Public or GPL?17:13
newz2000Our goal for working together on the web presence team is to have higher quality, and consistent themes17:13
drubinnewz2000: This is currently the case and I thought it was important to mention it! I do hope you and your team manage to change it and look forward to it17:13
thorwilnewz2000: recently a few people claiming to have web skills hit the ubuntu-artwork list. and invitation/pointer to the web team might be a good idea17:14
MrChrisdrubin: thats what we are working on now17:14
newz2000thorwil: noted, I'll mention it there17:14
newz2000ok, let me step back17:14
newz2000Let me tell you about some changes to the ubuntu.com website17:14
newz2000First, you probably know that the website uses drupal17:14
newz2000So our main work is on a drupal theme17:15
MTecknologydrupal v5 iirc?17:15
newz2000no, v617:15
MTecknologyalrighty17:15
newz2000However our theme will not be useful for most of you17:15
MrChrishence needing to adapt the theme, right?17:15
newz2000Ubuntu.com's implementation has gotten far more complex in order to support it's specific audience17:16
newz2000If you heard Mark speak at UDS you saw the curve17:16
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newz2000Ubuntu.com is being adapted to fit a broader audience17:16
MrChrisas it should...17:16
newz2000We're focusing on the quality of the content (typos, up-to-date info, etc)17:16
MrChrisi can do that17:16
newz2000MrChris: just listen17:16
MrChrismy apologies...17:17
newz2000The navigation is improving greatly17:17
newz2000this has been a big problem for a while, so you'll like this change17:17
newz2000The layout is changing dramatically17:17
newz2000From a coding persepctive it is a lot more complex17:17
newz2000and uses panels for almost everything17:17
newz2000And it has to support visual work that allows communicating which parts are community, which parts are commercial / canonical17:18
newz2000anyway, you don't need that in your community themes17:18
MTecknologypanels kill simplicity ;)17:18
newz2000indeed17:18
newz2000So what do community themes need?17:18
newz2000Let me toss out some of my ideas, then tell me yours17:19
newz2000I think they need to be consistently high quality17:19
newz2000Not every team has great artists or web geeks17:19
newz2000They should be able to get something great without these skills17:19
MrChrisstyle and simplicity17:19
newz2000They need a theme that allows them to express their individuality17:19
newz2000and yet visitors should still feel like the site is connected to Ubuntu.com17:20
echowarpmust be multilingual17:20
newz2000They need to respect the Ubuntu brand guidelines which mat_t will talk about shortly17:20
mhall119s/must/should/17:20
newz2000They need to leverage the benefits of the platform. I.e. a wordpress blog should benefit from being a wordpress blog, and differ from an smf forum.17:21
newz2000And lastly, and this may be controversial...17:21
* stas sorry afk a bit17:21
newz2000(lastly from me that is, you get to contribute here too)17:21
MrChrisnewz2000: a while ago, did we discuss something like this: a user goes to ubuntu.com. then based on their locale, it will redirect them to a subsite which matches their locale?17:21
newz2000They should not be clones of ubuntu.com. They should feel connected to and harmonious with ubuntu.com but different in subtle ways17:22
newz2000Let me explain why that is...17:22
rowinggolfernasty grammar on the www.ubuntu.com homepage - "it can be fast, fun and easier to use"17:22
MTecknologyMrChris: that has little to do with the theme of itself, only rtl should be in the theme17:22
newz2000give me just another moment folks17:22
newz2000some community sites are translation sites. They are partnerships to create localized resources17:23
newz2000when a site is an official translated copy it will be guranateed to get updated with each new change, whith each graphic, and will get high quality control17:23
MrChrisMTecknology, if a user from china could use a version of the ubuntu site which is chinese, it would make them feel more comfortable as opposed to using english or hungarian, yes?17:23
newz2000things that a community partnership doesn't provide17:23
newz2000So it should be clear to site visitors that this is an official partnership, but not necessarily a copy of the main site17:24
newz2000We can discuss this more later17:24
newz2000What have I left out?17:24
MrChrisnothing that i can think of...17:24
newz2000translatable is a good one17:25
echowarpperhaps a standard set of community links17:25
stasuntil we didn't change the subject with stuff related to design17:25
mhall119newz2000: how about supplying graphics, css, color palettes, etc17:25
stasthere's a great demand of integration with ldap17:25
newz2000mhall119: excellent point, it is next on the agenda17:25
MTecknologyMrChris: the theme shouldn't need to be translatable - that should be handled by the cms17:25
mhall119loco.ubuntu.com has started pointing to css files hosted by ubuntu.com, can other community sites do the same?17:26
echowarpstas: why would you want ldap when theres launchpad-login?17:26
stason drupal there's a plugin that doesn't work well at all, on wordpress I would write one but specs are not published17:26
newz2000mhall119: I don't think it will be a good idea. It was designed for that purpose17:26
stassorry launchpad17:26
newz2000 /was/ was not/17:27
MrChrisMTecknology, i am not saying the theme needs to be translatable, i am saying the content should be.17:27
newz2000I think the theme should be developed with this in mind.17:27
stasso I meant launchpad not ldap (I'm a mess :) )17:27
newz2000:-) we'll forgive you stas17:27
MTecknologynewz2000: could you check out ubuntu-drupal to see if it falls into the realm of being similar but not a clone?17:28
stasIt would be great to have some integration stuff for man cms to allow users login smoothly17:28
newz2000OK, I thought I might get some criticism for saying the sits should differ slightly from ubuntu.com but you all seem to have taken that in stride.17:28
mhall119newz2000: we like out individuality17:28
mhall119;)17:28
mongolito404newz2000: This has been announced before17:28
echowarpI'd like to see some kind of interlinking of the different ubuntu communities. Like a standard footer that links to some of the popular ones17:28
newz2000MTecknology: yes, I have. echowarp and I discussed it right before the meeting and I added that to the agenda at the end17:28
MTecknologyI think I'm the reason for clones in the first place :P17:28
Merk42newz2000: the only problem I see is that fine line of similar enough, but not too similar17:29
mhall119echowarp: +117:29
MTecknologynewz2000: alrighty - I'll wait 'til them17:29
MTecknologythen*17:29
MrChrisechowarp: +217:29
newz2000ok, lets talk about graphical and styling assets17:29
dantalizingstas: i havent really looked at this deeply yet, but https://launchpad.net/wordpress-launchpad-integration/trunk17:29
MTecknologynewz2000: the font is a big one..17:29
newz2000My boss talked to Mark and Jane yesterday17:29
stasdantalizing: thanks Ill check it17:29
newz2000Everyone agreed that we would make the style and imagagery available to the teams to use. I don't know the deetails of the licesing yet17:30
echowarpwe managed to make the new ubuntu-drupal noticeably different visually from the main site. different doesn't mean bad.17:30
newz2000I'm sure with graphcis it's a bit different than software17:30
MrChrisdifferent can be good17:30
newz2000and I know that we want ubuntu teams to have a lot of flexibility but we don't want it to be abused by those who are not trying to strengthen ubuntu17:30
mhall119newz2000: if graphics are supplied, can we get source files, like svg, or native gimp17:31
MTecknologyif you want to see a sample of ubuntu-drupal - staging.profarius.com - just fyi for anyone since echowarp mentioned it17:31
mhall119so we can more easily modify them17:31
mhall119getting low-res png files can only take us so far17:31
newz2000mat_t: would you mind covering the next few topics and helping answer soem of these questions?17:31
dantalizingnewz2000: to that end, having background separate from logos would be helpful17:31
mat_tsure17:31
mhall119dantalizing: +117:31
mat_tfirst of all - hi everybody :)17:32
mongolito404About assets licensing, drupal.org requires everything it hosts to be under the a GPL compatible licence. The issue has been raised for the ud-theme201017:32
MrChrisdantalizing: +217:32
MTecknologyMrChris: hi17:32
MrChrishello mat_t17:32
MTecknologymat_t: hi *17:32
mhall119mongolito404: what about images?17:32
MrChrisMTecknology: hi :p17:32
newz2000slow down guys17:32
newz2000sorry, people, not guys17:32
mat_tMy name is Mat Tomaszewski and I've had some part in the recent rebranding and web design efforts17:32
mat_t:)17:33
mongolito404mhall119: It's not clear but my understanding is that yes, images have to be under a GPL-comp. lic.17:33
MTecknologythe ubuntu logo is not gpl, right?17:34
mat_tAt the moment we're furiously qa-ing the site and working on the guidelines that will help with producing great new templates for Ubuntu websites17:34
mat_tso quick word about those17:34
rowinggolfernewz2000: firstly, I think the new branding is very professional looking. You are clearly saying is you do not want community sites to use this and therefore appear similar? What is unclear is what steps you would take against such a "clone" site.17:34
MTecknologymongolito404: I think the logo is the only real issue which is why I'm interested int he font being released17:34
mhall119MTecknology: the logo itself is protected by Trademark laws, copyrights are on individual representations17:35
MTecknologymhall119: I'm breaking those laws now - plase don't sue me :(17:36
MrChrisUnfortunately, I need to get to bed now. it is 2:40AM here in sydney. newz2000: will these meeting logs be on the site?17:36
mhall119MTecknology: I don't own them, so I have no standing to sue, so you're good ;)17:36
cjohnstonMrChris: irclogs.ubuntu.com17:36
MrChrismy face is on the keyboard :p17:36
echowarpwell, we kind of handle that by saying that Ubuntu is a registered trademark of canonical in the footer. thats kind of seperating the logo from the rest of the GPL stuff17:36
newz2000MrChris: I'll summarize and send to mailing lists17:36
MrChristhanks newz200017:37
MTecknologyechowarp: I suppose17:37
MTecknologyI have a thought...17:37
MTecknologyCould the web presence team make a set of images with the logo that would be acceptable to use?17:37
MTecknologyso we don't need to craft our own..17:37
MrChrisnewz2000: i will be in touch through email of course.17:37
mat_tok guys - we'll get to all those points17:37
mat_tif I may :)17:38
* MTecknology quiets self and watches text flow17:38
MrChrisFor now, goodbye for now and goodnight/day.17:38
mat_tbye MrChris17:38
mat_tso as you know, our artists have spent last months putting together what we call "refreshed Ubuntu brand"17:39
mat_twhich consists of new logo, font, colour palette and other elements17:39
mat_twe have also extracted what are the core Ubuntu brand values17:39
mongolito404If trademark on the U logo is not incompatible with the GPL, we will probably need reference to support this claim to keep the hosting on drupal.org (which is important because Drupal tooling integrates well with drupal.org)17:39
mat_tmongolito404: just a sec, we'll get to it :)17:40
mat_tyou can read more at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand and it's a recommended read :)17:40
mhall119mongolito404: again, trademark and copyright are separate issues17:41
mat_tthe web design guidelines we're working on will help understand the basics of the brand and the most important design decisions that guided us17:42
mat_tthey will cover aspects like the grid system, colour palette, typography and more17:44
mat_twhile trying to explain why certain decisions have been taken17:44
echowarpsounds good17:45
mat_tbut we want the community to be creative and fresh, as we believe this is the spirit of Ubuntu17:45
dantalizingi'm already fresh17:46
mat_tbut at the same time, not to lose the core, which defines the visual essence17:46
mat_tanyways :)17:46
echowarpsidenote: it sounds like you guys need a "This is a human-readable summary of the Legal Code", like creative commons has, for what you want with the copyright/trademark17:46
mat_tAt this stage I'd like to hear from you guys what it is that will help you most and how we can help best17:46
stasto bring up people for collaboration, can we setup some central point where mockups can be discussed and taken feedback?17:47
mhall119mat_t: source files for images17:47
stasI know there will be a lot of bikesheding but anyway17:47
mhall119mat_t: color palletes17:47
mat_tright17:47
newz2000stas: web presence team mailing list, but lets do talk about this in a bit17:47
stasok17:47
mat_tall those will obviously be provided17:47
mhall119the font files, obviously17:48
echowarpi'd kinda like to know what the deal is with all the dots. i don't know what the guidline is to using them. is there a certain kind of place it is supposed to be used?17:48
mat_tyes, the font will be available, once it's ready (which is also soon!)17:48
mat_techowarp: good question17:48
mhall119templates/themes/mockups that show how to use them all together17:48
mat_tI think the guideline should specify that, too17:49
mat_tso examples of good/bad practices17:49
mat_tetc17:49
mat_tmhall119: exactly17:49
echowarpdid i understand you correctly that you wanted to know what hte guideline should contain?17:49
mhall119not exactly web-based, but templates for OOo Writer and Scribus would be nice17:49
dantalizingi'd really like to see the corporate vs community branding message repeated .. i see a lot of aubergine in the community17:50
mat_techowarp: precisely17:50
mhall119dantalizing: +1 again17:50
* newz2000 says: 10m warning17:50
mat_tdantalizing: in general, aubergine will be used on Canonical website, Ubuntu colour palette uses orange and warm gray17:51
dantalizingi'd also like some more clarification on the whole dots and graph paper thing ... I'm personally not sure where these branding elements woudl apply17:51
mhall119and also clarification about when the community can/should use the corporate colors17:51
mat_tall good points17:51
dantalizingmat_t: *I* know that .. i'm not sure the community is getting it17:51
mat_texactly - hence the guide :)17:51
mat_tfantastic - I think that helps a lot17:51
mhall119for example, when a community is promoting Ubuntu itself, does it use Abergine or Orange?17:52
mat_tnewz2000: over to you17:52
newz2000ok17:52
mat_tUbuntu = orange17:52
dantalizingmhall119: orange17:52
mhall119Ubuntu desktop is Abergine though17:52
newz2000So mat_t knows what you need and will be working with his team to get these assets to you soon17:52
newz2000I know everyting is "soon"17:52
newz2000and I'm sorry that I don't have definite dates17:52
mat_thttp://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/17:52
mhall119might it be a bit of a disconnect, if everything advertising Ubuntu is in orange, but Ubuntu  itself is abergine?17:53
mat_tplease use this as a resource17:53
newz2000who's ready to start talking about creating themes?17:53
stasme17:53
yltsrcme17:53
newz2000phew, you had me worried there17:54
* stas show me the code :)17:54
newz2000:-)17:54
newz2000Normally, when i have a project that crosses multiple CMSs I start with plain html17:54
newz2000And I try to keep it as clean and simple as possible17:54
MTecknologymat_t: are those images open for our usage in themes?17:54
newz2000I think we should rally some of our CSS experts to help with this17:55
mongolito404newz2000: Any plan to use a CSS framework (960gs, blueprint), it think most CMS have some sort of helper or base theme for these17:55
newz2000960 would fit well with what will be on ubuntu.com but I don't know if it's relevant to all the various themes...17:56
dantalizingmmm...96017:56
newz2000does 960 work good for a wordpress blog?17:56
stasi wouldn't push css frameworks if there's no need in those17:56
stasin wordpress there ready frameworks17:56
stasso CSS frameworks are more like a burden17:57
newz2000OK, lets start a discussion on the web presence taem mailing list about the css for the base theme17:57
newz2000then we'll need to port this to other systems, like wordpress drupal, etc17:57
stasnewz2000: +117:57
newz2000(MTecknology, echowarp I am getting to your work, don't panic)17:57
newz2000We, the team, need a list of tools used by you the community17:58
newz2000wordpress, drupal, smf, ???17:58
MTecknologynewz2000: yup, I'm just wiritng an encryption script and watching :)17:58
ronnie_vd_cmoinmoin17:58
stasnewz2000: fluxbb (ex punbb)17:58
yltsrcrails, django17:58
Agafonovnewz2000: dokuwiki and simple machines forum (smf)17:58
stasplanetplanet17:58
mhall119newz2000: will there be separate code branches for those other themes?17:58
newz2000mhall119: good question, that's the next point on the agenda17:59
newz2000(you may be pschic!)17:59
dantalizingwp, planetplanet, elgg17:59
* stas says hi to Agafonov ;)17:59
newz2000We need a place to keep this. Launchpad is a good choice.17:59
mat_tSorry to interrupt, thanks to Thorwil, this is a correct link to the Visual Identity wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity17:59
newz2000Does it make more sense to use one branch for all or one per CMS?17:59
MTecknologydefinitely - launchpad is the only sensible place imo :P17:59
Agafonovstas: hi, just completely miss the time :(17:59
mhall119+1 launchpad17:59
MTecknologyeven if we import into other places - like drupal.org17:59
newz2000one branch total or one per cms?18:00
mhall119packages can also be made that install in the appropriate places18:00
MTecknology1/cms18:00
mhall119newz2000: one per cms I would think18:00
stasnewz2000: +1 launchpad but synced with main cms repo's cause both drupal and wordpress have plugins/themes hosting18:00
echowarpi would say one per cms18:00
MTecknologythat would get cluttered and overloaded otherwise18:00
echowarpi like launchpad18:00
mongolito404the way to package for Drupal is the get the module hosted on Drupal.org18:00
ronnie_vd_c1/cms18:00
stasone per cms18:00
newz2000I can think of one benefit to one total, tell me what you think....18:00
MTecknologystas: and drupal.org is cvs still :(18:00
newz2000much of the css will be the same, and when you update it in one you could update it in all18:01
stasMTecknology: yeah, sorry for you guys :(18:01
mhall119newz2000: there might be benefit in having a "commons" branch18:01
mhall119or "core"18:01
stasplus bzr plays well with most of the scm18:01
newz2000ok, that would likely be the plain html theme18:01
newz2000ok, I think that's decided18:01
mhall119newz2000: I mean for common css and images18:01
mongolito404imho, the best would be to a have a common "vendor branch" with shared resources18:02
mhall119so a wordpress theme would need the common branch plus wordpress branch18:02
newz2000I've created this wiki page as a resting place for our work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes18:02
MTecknologya core branch sounds like +1; then we can pull into otheres (or sub branch)18:02
Agafonovnewz2000: one "head" for design itself but divided for particular applications?18:02
ronnie_vd_cmhall119 +118:02
mhall119once bsr has nested tree support, we can include the common branch within a cms-specific branch18:03
newz2000yeah, that'd be cool18:03
* stas bzr is awesome, just for the record18:03
mhall119+1 on bzr being awesome18:03
MTecknologynewz2000: "others can use them as reference but need to change branding" - imho - it would be best to start with something acceptable for others - then offer the branding for those that don't need to worry about that18:03
MTecknologyso we're settled on the nested branches?18:04
newz2000MTecknology: that would be good except that it defeats the purpose, which is to make an Ubuntu theme for the community. :-)18:04
newz2000yes, nested branches18:04
MTecknologynewz2000: you mean that's acceptable for loco and such? - but not unubuntu related?18:04
newz2000I mean my point is not to make a new theme for the world, but to make (or adapt existing) themes for our community18:05
newz2000So having an un-branded branch is not a necessity18:05
newz2000I'm going to follow up on the web presense team mailing list asking for volunteers for each part18:05
* mhall119 goes to subscribe to that ML18:06
MTecknologyok- I'm sure this well get further clarified :P - I'm just looking for a cut and dried - spelled out - id10t proof thing :P18:06
newz2000so if you're not there, you should be18:06
newz2000Now let me mention that we've had some people in the community already start18:06
newz2000pioneers18:06
* stas https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-website18:06
newz2000thanks stas18:06
newz2000http://ubuntu-ast.org/?q=ast18:07
mat_tgotta run - was fun, thanks everybody!18:07
akgranermat_t, thanks!18:07
newz2000code is at https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme18:07
mat_thave a great evening/morning/night all! :)18:07
newz2000MTecknology and echowarp are the two who I have talked to about this, maybe others have participated18:07
newz2000it's good initial work18:08
MTecknologymany others have helped18:08
newz2000Alas, the design has changed a bit from the mock-ups you used18:08
newz2000But this points out something that I think we should value in our implementations...18:08
newz2000if you've worked with wordpress, you'll know that themes are always gpl18:08
newz2000The graphics are copyrighted by their owner (and may not be free)18:08
newz2000but the source is available18:08
newz2000So a lot of themes are evolutions of others. There's a lot of reuse.18:09
newz2000So after we have the base html we can divide each cms theme project into two tasks...18:09
newz2000the base theme and the branding18:09
newz2000I don't think we have to start from scratch on everything18:10
newz2000What do you think?18:10
MTecknologyscratch might not be tooo horrible - get things in sync18:10
MTecknologyit'll kinda kick us in the gut a little :P18:11
mhall119what do you mean by "branding"?18:11
newz2000the graphics and the part of the css that makes it look like an ubuntu site18:11
stasI wanted you to know that I started a wordpress-loco project https://edge.launchpad.net/wordpress-loco, though it doesn't use the refreshed brand, the results are exactly this website http://ubuntu-md.org18:11
mhall119newz2000: so the base theme wouldn't look like an ubuntu site?18:11
newz2000That's an option18:12
mhall119I'm not sure what benefit there would be to the community in that18:12
newz2000I guess what i'm saying is that I don't think theme creators need to feel the need to start from scratch18:12
mhall119since presumably we all want out sites to look like they're part of the ubuntu community18:12
mhall119s/out/our/18:12
newz2000They could take a good base theme and add the ubuntu branding to it18:12
stas+1 for base themes and ubuntu-loco "layer" above18:13
mhall119I'm just not seeing the benefit to a non-ubuntu-looking base theme18:13
stasboth drupal and wordpress have something like zen themes (startup frameworks)18:13
mhall119ah, okay, I think I understand now18:13
MTecknologyfor ubuntu-drupal - we could start with the base theme we have, then use the new owrk and sort of merge the two efforts18:14
newz2000I think that's a great plan18:14
Agafonovnewz2000: are there some restrictions for branding use in this case?18:14
stasMTecknology: +1 for that, it will also ensure a compatibility layer (sort of) :)18:14
MTecknologymhall119: for sen and such you make a theme that uses the other theme, but then you apply changes over top of it18:14
=== oubiwann_ is now known as oubiwann
MTecknologystas: ya18:15
newz2000Agafonov: we'll be getting you some artwork and guidelines soon18:15
Agafonovi mean who can and who cannot use branding18:15
newz2000ah18:15
newz2000good question18:15
echowarphow will we have access to the base theme without access to it?18:15
MTecknologyechowarp: that'll come up later - a branch will be made18:15
newz2000The policy in the past has been that officially recognized teams have a lot of flexibility. Others should not be using the Ubuntu brand in a way that communicates an official relationship.18:15
stasnewz2000: that means that themes can't be published in drupal and wordpress (lets say) themes directory18:16
mhall119newz2000: I thought it was allowed for promoting Ubuntu18:16
newz2000They need to have the branding removed18:16
newz2000mhall119: there is a very fine line18:16
MTecknologynewz2000: that's what i was referring to from the wiki18:16
stasoh, right, thats a solution18:16
newz2000all right, so you may be thinking, "what happens now?"18:17
newz2000I'm going to summarize todays meeting and send it to the lists (loco and web)18:17
newz2000Then I'm going to ask you who want to be involved to make teams18:17
newz2000each team in charge of a theme18:17
mhall119I'm wondering if OMG Ubuntu! can use these branded themes or not18:18
newz2000Some of you who can't make websites but want to use a theme need to list your needs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes18:18
newz2000I'll add the ones we discussed18:18
newz2000(before the notes go out) Someoen else is welcoem to do that for me if you really want to18:18
MTecknologywith the branding .. my opinion... we should build the theme without branding - all these cms' allow you to apply your own logo through the gui afaik - it's probably best to point them to a page to grab an image to use (http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/)18:18
newz2000remember, brand is more than a logo18:19
mhall119MTecknology: I would think most communities would have their own logo, I assumed the "branded" theme meant it used the Ubuntu colors and non-logo images18:19
MTecknologyya, but if we fall in the 'keep it distinct' - wouldn't the logo be about all that's left?18:19
newz2000I think distinct means, harmonious and connected18:20
newz2000not a copy but a definiate relationship18:20
MTecknologythat still constitutes the same brand?18:21
newz2000yes, definitely. the fridge, locos, brainstorm… all prt of Ubuntu18:21
newz2000They're just not "the official ubuntu website18:22
newz2000does that make sense?18:22
MTecknologyya, but by that it sounds like only a website directly related to ubuntu will ever be able to use these themes18:22
echowarpkinda the impression i'm getting18:23
mhall119that'll be the question, how "related" does a site have to be18:23
newz2000Our goal here is to make themes for the Ubuntu community sites. If it can be used for other purposes, fine, but lets keep our focus on our community18:23
mhall119are unofficial, unrecognized sites allowed to use the branded them or not18:23
newz2000mhall119: here's a good way of describing it...18:23
newz2000ubuntu.com will have a sense of formality and officialness to it18:24
newz2000Some organizations have a corporate site and a blog site.18:24
newz2000The blog usually has less formality to it, but still feels like it's part of the org18:24
=== RoAk is now known as RoAkSoAxB
newz2000regarding unofficial sites, they will need to make changes to the theme to remove the branding and make it not look like one of the official sites18:25
akgranernewz2000, right - I like the idea that when people land on the Fridge then there is a sense it's connected...18:25
newz2000that has been our policy for at least the 4 years I've been here18:25
mhall119newz2000: so http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/en couldn't use the "branded" theme's colors and layout?18:25
mhall119like it currently does18:26
MTecknologyin drupal (and probably most others) you can select colors - it can be a theme option - we could say - that 'this particular style' is not acceptable for unubuntu related sites.18:26
newz2000mhall119: We make case-by-case exceptions in those instances. Based on what the purpose of the site is.18:26
mhall119okay18:26
newz2000ok gang, I think we need to call it a wrap18:27
MTecknologynewz2000: would that thought work?18:27
MTecknologyagreed- I need to leave for a meeting in 3min18:27
newz2000MTecknology: I'd have to see it18:27
newz2000let's continue discussions on the maliing list18:27
MTecknologynewz2000: check out the color module for drupal :)18:27
MTecknologyafterward*18:27
stasI updated the wiki page with some excerp from todays meetup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes18:28
newz2000thanks stas18:28
newz2000Thanks all for participating and the good discussion18:28
akgranerThanks newz200018:28
MTecknologyttyal18:28
MTecknologythanks for the good info18:28
stasthanks newz2000 Mat_t and all the rest :)18:28
drubinwhy are there no logs of this last meeting?20:43
akgranerdrubin, there are - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt20:46
drubinakgraner: Look at the last date20:47
drubinakgraner: OMG I hate transparent proxies20:47
drubinakgraner: thanks... ;/20:47
akgraneryou're wecome20:47
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