[00:09] <legreffier> hello!
[13:04] <aday_> anybody here for ayatana ux?
[13:05] <godbyk> I am.
[13:05] <aday_> that's two ;)
[13:05] <godbyk> I know that humphreybc said he wouldn't be able to make it to today's meeting.
[13:05] <godbyk> I haven't heard anything about any of the others, though.
[13:07] <aday_> it might not be the best week for it
[13:07] <cjohnston> o/
[13:07] <godbyk> Hey, cjohnston.
[13:07] <cjohnston> hey
[13:12] <aday_> seems like there's a few of us here. are there any burning issues to be discussed?!
[13:14] <godbyk> Well, here's our list of potential activities: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux
[13:14] <godbyk> (Re-reading mpt's email it looks like he's out this week at a conference.)
[13:14] <godbyk> If anyone has any ideas to add to the list at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ayatana-ux, feel free.  We'll apparently discuss them at next week's meeting.
[13:15] <aday_> godbyk: cool
[13:16] <aday_> i guess the only ongoing issue is mpt's mail to the ayatana list. not much of a response there, unfortunately
[13:16] <godbyk> yeah, I only saw one review.
[13:16] <godbyk> but to be honest, I haven't been paying too close attention to the ayatana@ mailing list lately.
[13:17] <godbyk> there's been a lot of email, but most of it appears to be a collection of opinions.
[13:17] <cjohnston> agreed ^
[13:18] <godbyk> I'd love to see posts that contain opinions derived from some principles or opinions derived from data, but that doesn't appear to be happening at the moment.
[13:19] <aday_> i was hoping to find some time to add to the review
[13:19] <aday_> lead by example, so to speak
[13:20] <godbyk> Right.
[13:20] <godbyk> I've been pretty busy lately. I just started a new job, so I'm trying to sort through things there. Hopefully it'll settle down soon so I can get back to some Ubuntu stuff.
[13:21] <aday_> i'm pretty busy too
[13:21] <aday_> one thing that could help with this ui review would be to make it more visual. people respond to pictures :)
[13:22] <godbyk> Agreed.
[13:24] <aday_> think it would be ok to set up a project page on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/
[13:24] <aday_> ?
[13:26] <godbyk> I don't know yet.
[13:26] <godbyk> I think Ayatana and Ayatana UX are two different things.
[13:26] <godbyk> Might wait and talk to mpt about it first.
[13:27] <aday_> godbyk: ok
[13:36] <aday_> i've got to run. see you all next week :)
[13:36] <cjohnston> o/
[13:36] <godbyk> see ya, aday_!
[14:39] <MrChris> Hello all
[14:40] <MrChris> is anyone here?
[14:42] <MrChris> hellp?
[14:42] <MrChris> hello*
[14:55] <cjohnston> ?
[15:09] <jledbetter_> Hi MrChris
[15:09] <MrChris> hello jledbetter_
[15:09] <MrChris> i am here for the meeting.
[15:09] <jledbetter_> Which one?
[15:12] <mhall119> I'm here for all of them, doesn't matter which
[15:12] <MrChris> Website theme meeting
[15:12] <MrChris> this is the email i got
[15:12] <MrChris> Hello, I just wanted to send a quick reminder that we'll be having our meeting shortly. It will be at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode. I hope you can attend, but for those who cannot I'll write up some minutes and send them to the list and also post them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/NewBrandLaunchMeeting.
[15:13] <MrChris> i received this email at 11:36PM GMT+10:00
[15:15] <stas> !date
[15:16] <stas> http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx looks like there are about 2 more hours
[15:18] <jturek> I see in Evolution for some reason its showing the meeting as starting now as well,  must the the fridge,ubuntu calendar has the wrong timezone set
[15:19] <Joeb454> i was under the impression 1600 UTC is now
[15:20] <Joeb454> given I'm in BST, which is 1 hour behind UTC, unless I'm mistaken
[15:22] <MrChris> people can also look at http://www.timeanddate.com
[16:03] <Ddorda_ntbk> the website there meeting is in one hour, right?
[16:08] <MTecknology> Ddorda_ntbk: yup
[16:09] <popey> Joeb454: BST is one hour ahead of UTC
[16:12] <Ddorda_ntbk> MTecknology: cool, i'll be here :)
[16:13] <MTecknology> Ddorda_ntbk: sounds good
[16:13] <Ddorda_ntbk> MTecknology: you're doing the meeting?
[16:13] <ronnie_vd_c> when starts https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/NewBrandLaunchMeeting. thought that 16:00 UTC == 17:00GMT+1
[16:14] <MTecknology> Ddorda_ntbk: nope
[16:15] <popey> 1600 UTC roughly == 1600 GMT
[16:15] <popey> but UK is in BST which is GMT+1
[16:15] <popey> ronnie_vd_c: in 45 minutes
[16:16] <thekorn> date -u  helps alot ;)
[16:17] <Crewsr3> Does anyone know of a good website that would make it easy to convert UTC to my own time zone
[16:17] <popey> http://www.timeanddate.com
[16:17] <popey> or just run date -u as thekorn suggests
[16:17] <ronnie_vd_c> according to the website, it starts 16:00 UTC. im from the netherlands (GMT+1) and it is 17:00. Am i calculating something wrong? (have a bad inet connection)
[16:18] <popey> Thu May 20 15:18:35 UTC 2010
[16:18] <popey> ^^^ the time now
[16:18] <popey> so in 42 mins, the meeting will start
[16:18] <Crewsr3> Thanks popey
[16:19] <ronnie_vd_c> a i think i know the problem. in the netherlands we have summer and winter time. winter is normal GMT+1 and summer is GMT+2
[16:19] <Joeb454> popey: thanks, I always get confused :)
[16:20] <popey> everyone should live in UTC :)
[16:21] <MrChris> popey: then the world would be boring...
[16:21] <popey> it would be quieter
[16:22] <ronnie_vd_c> popey: not practical, if it is dark at 10AM ;)
[16:22] <popey> pffft
[16:22] <Joeb454> popey, i try to live in UTC, but it does get difficult at times :p
[16:22] <MrChris> i agree with ronnie_vd_c
[16:30] <ronnie_vd_c> altough, why not. just start working at 6AM instead of 8AM. eat at 4PM instead of 6PM. The day stays the same, only the notation is shifted 1 or 2 hours.
[16:31] <MTecknology> ronnie_vd_c: why doesn't the whole world just use the exact same timeof day at all times?
[16:35] <MTecknology> ronnie_vd_c: it started back when people set their time based on the rising sun; once railroads came into existance, crashes happened because time wasn't standardized, so they made time zones
[16:41]  * ronnie_vd_c hopes that the inet will be fixed before 16:00
[16:44]  * newz2000 too
[16:48] <soren> ronnie_vd_c: The internet is broken?
[16:49] <ronnie_vd_c> yes
[16:49] <ronnie_vd_c> currently on neighbour wireless
[16:49] <soren> I'm sorry to hear that.
[16:49] <soren> Oh. /Your/ internet is broken :)
[16:49] <soren> I'm much calmer now.
[16:49] <ronnie_vd_c> lol
[16:55] <afterlastangel> do I join too early?
[16:56] <ronnie_vd_c> 4 minutes ;)
[16:56] <MrChris> how much longer until the meeting?
[16:57] <ronnie_vd_c> 3 minutes i guess
[16:57] <afterlastangel> I the schedule is 1 hours
[16:59] <afterlastangel> Our server at ubuntu-vn.org is currently down,I think we could find another server for the new theme of homepage
[17:00] <newz2000> Hello, give me about 90 seconds and then we'll start
[17:00] <MrChris> ok
[17:01] <mat_t> 89
[17:01] <mat_t> 88
[17:01] <afterlastangel> :D
[17:01] <mat_t> 87
[17:01] <afterlastangel> !spam
[17:01] <mat_t> ;)
[17:01] <MrChris> :o
[17:02] <mat_t> 34
[17:02] <newz2000> Lets go
[17:02] <MrChris> ok...
[17:02] <newz2000> Good day everyone, I'm Matthew Nuzum, the ubuntu.com and canonical.com webmaster
[17:03] <newz2000> I'm a Canonical employee serving in this capacity for 4 years and before that was an enthusiastic member of the Ubuntu community
[17:03] <afterlastangel> hi
[17:03] <mongolito404> Hi
[17:03] <newz2000> I'm joined by mat_t who has been one of the pioneers of the Canonical Design team and has contributed in many highly visible ways to make Ubuntu as beautiful as it is today
[17:04] <MrChris> For that which I am greatful... :)
[17:04] <mhall119> hi newz2000
[17:04] <mat_t> hi guys, great to be here :)
[17:04] <newz2000> Today's meeting is about community web themes
[17:04] <newz2000> You have probably seen the work at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand2
[17:05] <newz2000> relating to the new branding and designs
[17:05] <newz2000> And I know that many of you are eager to see this in real life, on the ubuntu website
[17:05] <newz2000> and also maybe on your community team's website
[17:05] <newz2000> I know I'm eager to see it. :-)
[17:05]  * stas :)
[17:06] <newz2000> I want to give you an update on how that's going
[17:06] <newz2000> Canonical's design team, my team (marketing) and a contracted drupal agency are hard at work bringing this to life
[17:06]  * MrChris is eager to buy some of the Ubuntu 10.04 merchandise.
[17:06]  * ronnie_vd_c can't wait ;)
[17:06] <newz2000> It's in testing now. I've seen it and played with it.
[17:06] <newz2000> And I have to say, it looks marevelous
[17:07]  * MrChris agrees...
[17:07] <newz2000> Soon you too will get to see it. How soon depends on a few things, mostly related to testing and bug fixes
[17:07]  * akgraner can't wait to see it.... (I'm so excited)
[17:07] <mhall119> newz2000: how about Wordpress and Django themes?
[17:07] <newz2000> Its not going to be today or tomorrow… we have a little time yet.
[17:08] <newz2000> mhall119: good question, that's actually why we're here
[17:08] <mhall119> or just a plain HTML version that can be used to make other themes
[17:08] <afterlastangel> :D
[17:08] <mhall119> oh cool, I'll sit back and be patient then :)
[17:08] <newz2000> I know that you all would love to have your site launch at the exact time that Ubuntu.com's launches
[17:08] <MrChris> Wordpress themes can be adapted from HTML coding.
[17:08] <afterlastangel> or maybe the update of drupal-ubuntu
[17:08] <newz2000> I'm afraid we're not going to make that easy on you...
[17:08] <MrChris> :(
[17:08] <newz2000> But I want to do the next best thing
[17:09] <MrChris> :)
[17:09] <akgraner> :-( teases  :-P
[17:09] <akgraner> :-D
[17:09] <newz2000> This is where I mention the web presence team
[17:09] <mongolito404> ubuntu-drupal's has already a new theme matching the new brand
[17:09] <newz2000> mongolito404: let me point out that the stuff posted to the wiki is not final. The final theme has devited from that a bit.
[17:09] <echowarp> mongolito404: i wouldn't say matching. It fits though.
[17:10] <newz2000> But lets come back to that, OK?
[17:10] <MTecknology> newz2000: that was ideal iirc?
[17:10] <newz2000> The web presence team is a group of people who want to make Ubuntu better by using their web skills.
[17:10] <newz2000> If this describes you, you should be part of the team.
[17:10]  * MrChris wants to be part of this team.
[17:10] <newz2000> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website for more details
[17:11]  * MrChris has some knowledge in php and plenty in HTML
[17:11] <newz2000> We have an interesting opportunity with the new designs
[17:11] <newz2000> What we have with the community themes is in some ways less than ideal
[17:11] <newz2000> For one, we have a lot of fragmentation and duplication of work
[17:12] <MrChris> which needs to be soughted and the copies eliminated.
[17:12] <newz2000> This has caused there to be many themes with great variances of quality
[17:12] <newz2000> I'd like for us to coordinate our efforts to work together as the web presence team to create some themes for the community to use
[17:12] <drubin> newz2000: Sorry but the reason for this is the lack of openness and untimely fassion that canonical have released the new themes..
[17:13] <newz2000> drubin: we're trying to chagne that. This is our chance.
[17:13] <rowinggolfer> newz2000: (newbie question) what license are all the branding images release under?
[17:13] <newz2000> rowinggolfer: getting there
[17:13] <MrChris> newz2000: would it not be GNU Public or GPL?
[17:13] <newz2000> Our goal for working together on the web presence team is to have higher quality, and consistent themes
[17:13] <drubin> newz2000: This is currently the case and I thought it was important to mention it! I do hope you and your team manage to change it and look forward to it
[17:14] <thorwil> newz2000: recently a few people claiming to have web skills hit the ubuntu-artwork list. and invitation/pointer to the web team might be a good idea
[17:14] <MrChris> drubin: thats what we are working on now
[17:14] <newz2000> thorwil: noted, I'll mention it there
[17:14] <newz2000> ok, let me step back
[17:14] <newz2000> Let me tell you about some changes to the ubuntu.com website
[17:14] <newz2000> First, you probably know that the website uses drupal
[17:15] <newz2000> So our main work is on a drupal theme
[17:15] <MTecknology> drupal v5 iirc?
[17:15] <newz2000> no, v6
[17:15] <MTecknology> alrighty
[17:15] <newz2000> However our theme will not be useful for most of you
[17:15] <MrChris> hence needing to adapt the theme, right?
[17:16] <newz2000> Ubuntu.com's implementation has gotten far more complex in order to support it's specific audience
[17:16] <newz2000> If you heard Mark speak at UDS you saw the curve
[17:16] <newz2000> Ubuntu.com is being adapted to fit a broader audience
[17:16] <MrChris> as it should...
[17:16] <newz2000> We're focusing on the quality of the content (typos, up-to-date info, etc)
[17:16] <MrChris> i can do that
[17:16] <newz2000> MrChris: just listen
[17:17] <MrChris> my apologies...
[17:17] <newz2000> The navigation is improving greatly
[17:17] <newz2000> this has been a big problem for a while, so you'll like this change
[17:17] <newz2000> The layout is changing dramatically
[17:17] <newz2000> From a coding persepctive it is a lot more complex
[17:17] <newz2000> and uses panels for almost everything
[17:18] <newz2000> And it has to support visual work that allows communicating which parts are community, which parts are commercial / canonical
[17:18] <newz2000> anyway, you don't need that in your community themes
[17:18] <MTecknology> panels kill simplicity ;)
[17:18] <newz2000> indeed
[17:18] <newz2000> So what do community themes need?
[17:19] <newz2000> Let me toss out some of my ideas, then tell me yours
[17:19] <newz2000> I think they need to be consistently high quality
[17:19] <newz2000> Not every team has great artists or web geeks
[17:19] <newz2000> They should be able to get something great without these skills
[17:19] <MrChris> style and simplicity
[17:19] <newz2000> They need a theme that allows them to express their individuality
[17:20] <newz2000> and yet visitors should still feel like the site is connected to Ubuntu.com
[17:20] <echowarp> must be multilingual
[17:20] <newz2000> They need to respect the Ubuntu brand guidelines which mat_t will talk about shortly
[17:20] <mhall119> s/must/should/
[17:21] <newz2000> They need to leverage the benefits of the platform. I.e. a wordpress blog should benefit from being a wordpress blog, and differ from an smf forum.
[17:21] <newz2000> And lastly, and this may be controversial...
[17:21]  * stas sorry afk a bit
[17:21] <newz2000> (lastly from me that is, you get to contribute here too)
[17:21] <MrChris> newz2000: a while ago, did we discuss something like this: a user goes to ubuntu.com. then based on their locale, it will redirect them to a subsite which matches their locale?
[17:22] <newz2000> They should not be clones of ubuntu.com. They should feel connected to and harmonious with ubuntu.com but different in subtle ways
[17:22] <newz2000> Let me explain why that is...
[17:22] <rowinggolfer> nasty grammar on the www.ubuntu.com homepage - "it can be fast, fun and easier to use"
[17:22] <MTecknology> MrChris: that has little to do with the theme of itself, only rtl should be in the theme
[17:22] <newz2000> give me just another moment folks
[17:23] <newz2000> some community sites are translation sites. They are partnerships to create localized resources
[17:23] <newz2000> when a site is an official translated copy it will be guranateed to get updated with each new change, whith each graphic, and will get high quality control
[17:23] <MrChris> MTecknology, if a user from china could use a version of the ubuntu site which is chinese, it would make them feel more comfortable as opposed to using english or hungarian, yes?
[17:23] <newz2000> things that a community partnership doesn't provide
[17:24] <newz2000> So it should be clear to site visitors that this is an official partnership, but not necessarily a copy of the main site
[17:24] <newz2000> We can discuss this more later
[17:24] <newz2000> What have I left out?
[17:24] <MrChris> nothing that i can think of...
[17:25] <newz2000> translatable is a good one
[17:25] <echowarp> perhaps a standard set of community links
[17:25] <stas> until we didn't change the subject with stuff related to design
[17:25] <mhall119> newz2000: how about supplying graphics, css, color palettes, etc
[17:25] <stas> there's a great demand of integration with ldap
[17:25] <newz2000> mhall119: excellent point, it is next on the agenda
[17:25] <MTecknology> MrChris: the theme shouldn't need to be translatable - that should be handled by the cms
[17:26] <mhall119> loco.ubuntu.com has started pointing to css files hosted by ubuntu.com, can other community sites do the same?
[17:26] <echowarp> stas: why would you want ldap when theres launchpad-login?
[17:26] <stas> on drupal there's a plugin that doesn't work well at all, on wordpress I would write one but specs are not published
[17:26] <newz2000> mhall119: I don't think it will be a good idea. It was designed for that purpose
[17:26] <stas> sorry launchpad
[17:27] <newz2000>  /was/ was not/
[17:27] <MrChris> MTecknology, i am not saying the theme needs to be translatable, i am saying the content should be.
[17:27] <newz2000> I think the theme should be developed with this in mind.
[17:27] <stas> so I meant launchpad not ldap (I'm a mess :) )
[17:27] <newz2000> :-) we'll forgive you stas
[17:28] <MTecknology> newz2000: could you check out ubuntu-drupal to see if it falls into the realm of being similar but not a clone?
[17:28] <stas> It would be great to have some integration stuff for man cms to allow users login smoothly
[17:28] <newz2000> OK, I thought I might get some criticism for saying the sits should differ slightly from ubuntu.com but you all seem to have taken that in stride.
[17:28] <mhall119> newz2000: we like out individuality
[17:28] <mhall119> ;)
[17:28] <mongolito404> newz2000: This has been announced before
[17:28] <echowarp> I'd like to see some kind of interlinking of the different ubuntu communities. Like a standard footer that links to some of the popular ones
[17:28] <newz2000> MTecknology: yes, I have. echowarp and I discussed it right before the meeting and I added that to the agenda at the end
[17:28] <MTecknology> I think I'm the reason for clones in the first place :P
[17:29] <Merk42> newz2000: the only problem I see is that fine line of similar enough, but not too similar
[17:29] <mhall119> echowarp: +1
[17:29] <MTecknology> newz2000: alrighty - I'll wait 'til them
[17:29] <MTecknology> then*
[17:29] <MrChris> echowarp: +2
[17:29] <newz2000> ok, lets talk about graphical and styling assets
[17:29] <dantalizing> stas: i havent really looked at this deeply yet, but https://launchpad.net/wordpress-launchpad-integration/trunk
[17:29] <MTecknology> newz2000: the font is a big one..
[17:29] <newz2000> My boss talked to Mark and Jane yesterday
[17:29] <stas> dantalizing: thanks Ill check it
[17:30] <newz2000> Everyone agreed that we would make the style and imagagery available to the teams to use. I don't know the deetails of the licesing yet
[17:30] <echowarp> we managed to make the new ubuntu-drupal noticeably different visually from the main site. different doesn't mean bad.
[17:30] <newz2000> I'm sure with graphcis it's a bit different than software
[17:30] <MrChris> different can be good
[17:30] <newz2000> and I know that we want ubuntu teams to have a lot of flexibility but we don't want it to be abused by those who are not trying to strengthen ubuntu
[17:31] <mhall119> newz2000: if graphics are supplied, can we get source files, like svg, or native gimp
[17:31] <MTecknology> if you want to see a sample of ubuntu-drupal - staging.profarius.com - just fyi for anyone since echowarp mentioned it
[17:31] <mhall119> so we can more easily modify them
[17:31] <mhall119> getting low-res png files can only take us so far
[17:31] <newz2000> mat_t: would you mind covering the next few topics and helping answer soem of these questions?
[17:31] <dantalizing> newz2000: to that end, having background separate from logos would be helpful
[17:31] <mat_t> sure
[17:31] <mhall119> dantalizing: +1
[17:32] <mat_t> first of all - hi everybody :)
[17:32] <mongolito404> About assets licensing, drupal.org requires everything it hosts to be under the a GPL compatible licence. The issue has been raised for the ud-theme2010
[17:32] <MrChris> dantalizing: +2
[17:32] <MTecknology> MrChris: hi
[17:32] <MrChris> hello mat_t
[17:32] <MTecknology> mat_t: hi *
[17:32] <mhall119> mongolito404: what about images?
[17:32] <MrChris> MTecknology: hi :p
[17:32] <newz2000> slow down guys
[17:32] <newz2000> sorry, people, not guys
[17:32] <mat_t> My name is Mat Tomaszewski and I've had some part in the recent rebranding and web design efforts
[17:33] <mat_t> :)
[17:33] <mongolito404> mhall119: It's not clear but my understanding is that yes, images have to be under a GPL-comp. lic.
[17:34] <MTecknology> the ubuntu logo is not gpl, right?
[17:34] <mat_t> At the moment we're furiously qa-ing the site and working on the guidelines that will help with producing great new templates for Ubuntu websites
[17:34] <mat_t> so quick word about those
[17:34] <rowinggolfer> newz2000: firstly, I think the new branding is very professional looking. You are clearly saying is you do not want community sites to use this and therefore appear similar? What is unclear is what steps you would take against such a "clone" site.
[17:34] <MTecknology> mongolito404: I think the logo is the only real issue which is why I'm interested int he font being released
[17:35] <mhall119> MTecknology: the logo itself is protected by Trademark laws, copyrights are on individual representations
[17:36] <MTecknology> mhall119: I'm breaking those laws now - plase don't sue me :(
[17:36] <MrChris> Unfortunately, I need to get to bed now. it is 2:40AM here in sydney. newz2000: will these meeting logs be on the site?
[17:36] <mhall119> MTecknology: I don't own them, so I have no standing to sue, so you're good ;)
[17:36] <cjohnston> MrChris: irclogs.ubuntu.com
[17:36] <MrChris> my face is on the keyboard :p
[17:36] <echowarp> well, we kind of handle that by saying that Ubuntu is a registered trademark of canonical in the footer. thats kind of seperating the logo from the rest of the GPL stuff
[17:36] <newz2000> MrChris: I'll summarize and send to mailing lists
[17:37] <MrChris> thanks newz2000
[17:37] <MTecknology> echowarp: I suppose
[17:37] <MTecknology> I have a thought...
[17:37] <MTecknology> Could the web presence team make a set of images with the logo that would be acceptable to use?
[17:37] <MTecknology> so we don't need to craft our own..
[17:37] <MrChris> newz2000: i will be in touch through email of course.
[17:37] <mat_t> ok guys - we'll get to all those points
[17:38] <mat_t> if I may :)
[17:38]  * MTecknology quiets self and watches text flow
[17:38] <MrChris> For now, goodbye for now and goodnight/day.
[17:38] <mat_t> bye MrChris
[17:39] <mat_t> so as you know, our artists have spent last months putting together what we call "refreshed Ubuntu brand"
[17:39] <mat_t> which consists of new logo, font, colour palette and other elements
[17:39] <mat_t> we have also extracted what are the core Ubuntu brand values
[17:39] <mongolito404> If trademark on the U logo is not incompatible with the GPL, we will probably need reference to support this claim to keep the hosting on drupal.org (which is important because Drupal tooling integrates well with drupal.org)
[17:40] <mat_t> mongolito404: just a sec, we'll get to it :)
[17:40] <mat_t> you can read more at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand and it's a recommended read :)
[17:41] <mhall119> mongolito404: again, trademark and copyright are separate issues
[17:42] <mat_t> the web design guidelines we're working on will help understand the basics of the brand and the most important design decisions that guided us
[17:44] <mat_t> they will cover aspects like the grid system, colour palette, typography and more
[17:44] <mat_t> while trying to explain why certain decisions have been taken
[17:45] <echowarp> sounds good
[17:45] <mat_t> but we want the community to be creative and fresh, as we believe this is the spirit of Ubuntu
[17:46] <dantalizing> i'm already fresh
[17:46] <mat_t> but at the same time, not to lose the core, which defines the visual essence
[17:46] <mat_t> anyways :)
[17:46] <echowarp> sidenote: it sounds like you guys need a "This is a human-readable summary of the Legal Code", like creative commons has, for what you want with the copyright/trademark
[17:46] <mat_t> At this stage I'd like to hear from you guys what it is that will help you most and how we can help best
[17:47] <stas> to bring up people for collaboration, can we setup some central point where mockups can be discussed and taken feedback?
[17:47] <mhall119> mat_t: source files for images
[17:47] <stas> I know there will be a lot of bikesheding but anyway
[17:47] <mhall119> mat_t: color palletes
[17:47] <mat_t> right
[17:47] <newz2000> stas: web presence team mailing list, but lets do talk about this in a bit
[17:47] <stas> ok
[17:47] <mat_t> all those will obviously be provided
[17:48] <mhall119> the font files, obviously
[17:48] <echowarp> i'd kinda like to know what the deal is with all the dots. i don't know what the guidline is to using them. is there a certain kind of place it is supposed to be used?
[17:48] <mat_t> yes, the font will be available, once it's ready (which is also soon!)
[17:48] <mat_t> echowarp: good question
[17:48] <mhall119> templates/themes/mockups that show how to use them all together
[17:49] <mat_t> I think the guideline should specify that, too
[17:49] <mat_t> so examples of good/bad practices
[17:49] <mat_t> etc
[17:49] <mat_t> mhall119: exactly
[17:49] <echowarp> did i understand you correctly that you wanted to know what hte guideline should contain?
[17:49] <mhall119> not exactly web-based, but templates for OOo Writer and Scribus would be nice
[17:50] <dantalizing> i'd really like to see the corporate vs community branding message repeated .. i see a lot of aubergine in the community
[17:50] <mat_t> echowarp: precisely
[17:50] <mhall119> dantalizing: +1 again
[17:50]  * newz2000 says: 10m warning
[17:51] <mat_t> dantalizing: in general, aubergine will be used on Canonical website, Ubuntu colour palette uses orange and warm gray
[17:51] <dantalizing> i'd also like some more clarification on the whole dots and graph paper thing ... I'm personally not sure where these branding elements woudl apply
[17:51] <mhall119> and also clarification about when the community can/should use the corporate colors
[17:51] <mat_t> all good points
[17:51] <dantalizing> mat_t: *I* know that .. i'm not sure the community is getting it
[17:51] <mat_t> exactly - hence the guide :)
[17:51] <mat_t> fantastic - I think that helps a lot
[17:52] <mhall119> for example, when a community is promoting Ubuntu itself, does it use Abergine or Orange?
[17:52] <mat_t> newz2000: over to you
[17:52] <newz2000> ok
[17:52] <mat_t> Ubuntu = orange
[17:52] <dantalizing> mhall119: orange
[17:52] <mhall119> Ubuntu desktop is Abergine though
[17:52] <newz2000> So mat_t knows what you need and will be working with his team to get these assets to you soon
[17:52] <newz2000> I know everyting is "soon"
[17:52] <newz2000> and I'm sorry that I don't have definite dates
[17:52] <mat_t> http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/
[17:53] <mhall119> might it be a bit of a disconnect, if everything advertising Ubuntu is in orange, but Ubuntu  itself is abergine?
[17:53] <mat_t> please use this as a resource
[17:53] <newz2000> who's ready to start talking about creating themes?
[17:53] <stas> me
[17:53] <yltsrc> me
[17:54] <newz2000> phew, you had me worried there
[17:54]  * stas show me the code :)
[17:54] <newz2000> :-)
[17:54] <newz2000> Normally, when i have a project that crosses multiple CMSs I start with plain html
[17:54] <newz2000> And I try to keep it as clean and simple as possible
[17:54] <MTecknology> mat_t: are those images open for our usage in themes?
[17:55] <newz2000> I think we should rally some of our CSS experts to help with this
[17:55] <mongolito404> newz2000: Any plan to use a CSS framework (960gs, blueprint), it think most CMS have some sort of helper or base theme for these
[17:56] <newz2000> 960 would fit well with what will be on ubuntu.com but I don't know if it's relevant to all the various themes...
[17:56] <dantalizing> mmm...960
[17:56] <newz2000> does 960 work good for a wordpress blog?
[17:56] <stas> i wouldn't push css frameworks if there's no need in those
[17:56] <stas> in wordpress there ready frameworks
[17:57] <stas> so CSS frameworks are more like a burden
[17:57] <newz2000> OK, lets start a discussion on the web presence taem mailing list about the css for the base theme
[17:57] <newz2000> then we'll need to port this to other systems, like wordpress drupal, etc
[17:57] <stas> newz2000: +1
[17:57] <newz2000> (MTecknology, echowarp I am getting to your work, don't panic)
[17:58] <newz2000> We, the team, need a list of tools used by you the community
[17:58] <newz2000> wordpress, drupal, smf, ???
[17:58] <MTecknology> newz2000: yup, I'm just wiritng an encryption script and watching :)
[17:58] <ronnie_vd_c> moinmoin
[17:58] <stas> newz2000: fluxbb (ex punbb)
[17:58] <yltsrc> rails, django
[17:58] <Agafonov> newz2000: dokuwiki and simple machines forum (smf)
[17:58] <stas> planetplanet
[17:58] <mhall119> newz2000: will there be separate code branches for those other themes?
[17:59] <newz2000> mhall119: good question, that's the next point on the agenda
[17:59] <newz2000> (you may be pschic!)
[17:59] <dantalizing> wp, planetplanet, elgg
[17:59]  * stas says hi to Agafonov ;)
[17:59] <newz2000> We need a place to keep this. Launchpad is a good choice.
[17:59] <mat_t> Sorry to interrupt, thanks to Thorwil, this is a correct link to the Visual Identity wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity
[17:59] <newz2000> Does it make more sense to use one branch for all or one per CMS?
[17:59] <MTecknology> definitely - launchpad is the only sensible place imo :P
[17:59] <Agafonov> stas: hi, just completely miss the time :(
[17:59] <mhall119> +1 launchpad
[17:59] <MTecknology> even if we import into other places - like drupal.org
[18:00] <newz2000> one branch total or one per cms?
[18:00] <mhall119> packages can also be made that install in the appropriate places
[18:00] <MTecknology> 1/cms
[18:00] <mhall119> newz2000: one per cms I would think
[18:00] <stas> newz2000: +1 launchpad but synced with main cms repo's cause both drupal and wordpress have plugins/themes hosting
[18:00] <echowarp> i would say one per cms
[18:00] <MTecknology> that would get cluttered and overloaded otherwise
[18:00] <echowarp> i like launchpad
[18:00] <mongolito404> the way to package for Drupal is the get the module hosted on Drupal.org
[18:00] <ronnie_vd_c> 1/cms
[18:00] <stas> one per cms
[18:00] <newz2000> I can think of one benefit to one total, tell me what you think....
[18:00] <MTecknology> stas: and drupal.org is cvs still :(
[18:01] <newz2000> much of the css will be the same, and when you update it in one you could update it in all
[18:01] <stas> MTecknology: yeah, sorry for you guys :(
[18:01] <mhall119> newz2000: there might be benefit in having a "commons" branch
[18:01] <mhall119> or "core"
[18:01] <stas> plus bzr plays well with most of the scm
[18:01] <newz2000> ok, that would likely be the plain html theme
[18:01] <newz2000> ok, I think that's decided
[18:01] <mhall119> newz2000: I mean for common css and images
[18:02] <mongolito404> imho, the best would be to a have a common "vendor branch" with shared resources
[18:02] <mhall119> so a wordpress theme would need the common branch plus wordpress branch
[18:02] <newz2000> I've created this wiki page as a resting place for our work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes
[18:02] <MTecknology> a core branch sounds like +1; then we can pull into otheres (or sub branch)
[18:02] <Agafonov> newz2000: one "head" for design itself but divided for particular applications?
[18:02] <ronnie_vd_c> mhall119 +1
[18:03] <mhall119> once bsr has nested tree support, we can include the common branch within a cms-specific branch
[18:03] <newz2000> yeah, that'd be cool
[18:03]  * stas bzr is awesome, just for the record
[18:03] <mhall119> +1 on bzr being awesome
[18:03] <MTecknology> newz2000: "others can use them as reference but need to change branding" - imho - it would be best to start with something acceptable for others - then offer the branding for those that don't need to worry about that
[18:04] <MTecknology> so we're settled on the nested branches?
[18:04] <newz2000> MTecknology: that would be good except that it defeats the purpose, which is to make an Ubuntu theme for the community. :-)
[18:04] <newz2000> yes, nested branches
[18:04] <MTecknology> newz2000: you mean that's acceptable for loco and such? - but not unubuntu related?
[18:05] <newz2000> I mean my point is not to make a new theme for the world, but to make (or adapt existing) themes for our community
[18:05] <newz2000> So having an un-branded branch is not a necessity
[18:05] <newz2000> I'm going to follow up on the web presense team mailing list asking for volunteers for each part
[18:06]  * mhall119 goes to subscribe to that ML
[18:06] <MTecknology> ok- I'm sure this well get further clarified :P - I'm just looking for a cut and dried - spelled out - id10t proof thing :P
[18:06] <newz2000> so if you're not there, you should be
[18:06] <newz2000> Now let me mention that we've had some people in the community already start
[18:06] <newz2000> pioneers
[18:06]  * stas https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-website
[18:06] <newz2000> thanks stas
[18:07] <newz2000> http://ubuntu-ast.org/?q=ast
[18:07] <mat_t> gotta run - was fun, thanks everybody!
[18:07] <akgraner> mat_t, thanks!
[18:07] <newz2000> code is at https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme
[18:07] <mat_t> have a great evening/morning/night all! :)
[18:07] <newz2000> MTecknology and echowarp are the two who I have talked to about this, maybe others have participated
[18:08] <newz2000> it's good initial work
[18:08] <MTecknology> many others have helped
[18:08] <newz2000> Alas, the design has changed a bit from the mock-ups you used
[18:08] <newz2000> But this points out something that I think we should value in our implementations...
[18:08] <newz2000> if you've worked with wordpress, you'll know that themes are always gpl
[18:08] <newz2000> The graphics are copyrighted by their owner (and may not be free)
[18:08] <newz2000> but the source is available
[18:09] <newz2000> So a lot of themes are evolutions of others. There's a lot of reuse.
[18:09] <newz2000> So after we have the base html we can divide each cms theme project into two tasks...
[18:09] <newz2000> the base theme and the branding
[18:10] <newz2000> I don't think we have to start from scratch on everything
[18:10] <newz2000> What do you think?
[18:10] <MTecknology> scratch might not be tooo horrible - get things in sync
[18:11] <MTecknology> it'll kinda kick us in the gut a little :P
[18:11] <mhall119> what do you mean by "branding"?
[18:11] <newz2000> the graphics and the part of the css that makes it look like an ubuntu site
[18:11] <stas> I wanted you to know that I started a wordpress-loco project https://edge.launchpad.net/wordpress-loco, though it doesn't use the refreshed brand, the results are exactly this website http://ubuntu-md.org
[18:11] <mhall119> newz2000: so the base theme wouldn't look like an ubuntu site?
[18:12] <newz2000> That's an option
[18:12] <mhall119> I'm not sure what benefit there would be to the community in that
[18:12] <newz2000> I guess what i'm saying is that I don't think theme creators need to feel the need to start from scratch
[18:12] <mhall119> since presumably we all want out sites to look like they're part of the ubuntu community
[18:12] <mhall119> s/out/our/
[18:12] <newz2000> They could take a good base theme and add the ubuntu branding to it
[18:13] <stas> +1 for base themes and ubuntu-loco "layer" above
[18:13] <mhall119> I'm just not seeing the benefit to a non-ubuntu-looking base theme
[18:13] <stas> both drupal and wordpress have something like zen themes (startup frameworks)
[18:13] <mhall119> ah, okay, I think I understand now
[18:14] <MTecknology> for ubuntu-drupal - we could start with the base theme we have, then use the new owrk and sort of merge the two efforts
[18:14] <newz2000> I think that's a great plan
[18:14] <Agafonov> newz2000: are there some restrictions for branding use in this case?
[18:14] <stas> MTecknology: +1 for that, it will also ensure a compatibility layer (sort of) :)
[18:14] <MTecknology> mhall119: for sen and such you make a theme that uses the other theme, but then you apply changes over top of it
[18:15] <MTecknology> stas: ya
[18:15] <newz2000> Agafonov: we'll be getting you some artwork and guidelines soon
[18:15] <Agafonov> i mean who can and who cannot use branding
[18:15] <newz2000> ah
[18:15] <newz2000> good question
[18:15] <echowarp> how will we have access to the base theme without access to it?
[18:15] <MTecknology> echowarp: that'll come up later - a branch will be made
[18:15] <newz2000> The policy in the past has been that officially recognized teams have a lot of flexibility. Others should not be using the Ubuntu brand in a way that communicates an official relationship.
[18:16] <stas> newz2000: that means that themes can't be published in drupal and wordpress (lets say) themes directory
[18:16] <mhall119> newz2000: I thought it was allowed for promoting Ubuntu
[18:16] <newz2000> They need to have the branding removed
[18:16] <newz2000> mhall119: there is a very fine line
[18:16] <MTecknology> newz2000: that's what i was referring to from the wiki
[18:16] <stas> oh, right, thats a solution
[18:17] <newz2000> all right, so you may be thinking, "what happens now?"
[18:17] <newz2000> I'm going to summarize todays meeting and send it to the lists (loco and web)
[18:17] <newz2000> Then I'm going to ask you who want to be involved to make teams
[18:17] <newz2000> each team in charge of a theme
[18:18] <mhall119> I'm wondering if OMG Ubuntu! can use these branded themes or not
[18:18] <newz2000> Some of you who can't make websites but want to use a theme need to list your needs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes
[18:18] <newz2000> I'll add the ones we discussed
[18:18] <newz2000> (before the notes go out) Someoen else is welcoem to do that for me if you really want to
[18:18] <MTecknology> with the branding .. my opinion... we should build the theme without branding - all these cms' allow you to apply your own logo through the gui afaik - it's probably best to point them to a page to grab an image to use (http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/)
[18:19] <newz2000> remember, brand is more than a logo
[18:19] <mhall119> MTecknology: I would think most communities would have their own logo, I assumed the "branded" theme meant it used the Ubuntu colors and non-logo images
[18:19] <MTecknology> ya, but if we fall in the 'keep it distinct' - wouldn't the logo be about all that's left?
[18:20] <newz2000> I think distinct means, harmonious and connected
[18:20] <newz2000> not a copy but a definiate relationship
[18:21] <MTecknology> that still constitutes the same brand?
[18:21] <newz2000> yes, definitely. the fridge, locos, brainstorm… all prt of Ubuntu
[18:22] <newz2000> They're just not "the official ubuntu website
[18:22] <newz2000> does that make sense?
[18:22] <MTecknology> ya, but by that it sounds like only a website directly related to ubuntu will ever be able to use these themes
[18:23] <echowarp> kinda the impression i'm getting
[18:23] <mhall119> that'll be the question, how "related" does a site have to be
[18:23] <newz2000> Our goal here is to make themes for the Ubuntu community sites. If it can be used for other purposes, fine, but lets keep our focus on our community
[18:23] <mhall119> are unofficial, unrecognized sites allowed to use the branded them or not
[18:23] <newz2000> mhall119: here's a good way of describing it...
[18:24] <newz2000> ubuntu.com will have a sense of formality and officialness to it
[18:24] <newz2000> Some organizations have a corporate site and a blog site.
[18:24] <newz2000> The blog usually has less formality to it, but still feels like it's part of the org
[18:25] <newz2000> regarding unofficial sites, they will need to make changes to the theme to remove the branding and make it not look like one of the official sites
[18:25] <akgraner> newz2000, right - I like the idea that when people land on the Fridge then there is a sense it's connected...
[18:25] <newz2000> that has been our policy for at least the 4 years I've been here
[18:25] <mhall119> newz2000: so http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/en couldn't use the "branded" theme's colors and layout?
[18:26] <mhall119> like it currently does
[18:26] <MTecknology> in drupal (and probably most others) you can select colors - it can be a theme option - we could say - that 'this particular style' is not acceptable for unubuntu related sites.
[18:26] <newz2000> mhall119: We make case-by-case exceptions in those instances. Based on what the purpose of the site is.
[18:26] <mhall119> okay
[18:27] <newz2000> ok gang, I think we need to call it a wrap
[18:27] <MTecknology> newz2000: would that thought work?
[18:27] <MTecknology> agreed- I need to leave for a meeting in 3min
[18:27] <newz2000> MTecknology: 	I'd have to see it
[18:27] <newz2000> let's continue discussions on the maliing list
[18:27] <MTecknology> newz2000: check out the color module for drupal :)
[18:27] <MTecknology> afterward*
[18:28] <stas> I updated the wiki page with some excerp from todays meetup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/WebThemes
[18:28] <newz2000> thanks stas
[18:28] <newz2000> Thanks all for participating and the good discussion
[18:28] <akgraner> Thanks newz2000
[18:28] <MTecknology> ttyal
[18:28] <MTecknology> thanks for the good info
[18:28] <stas> thanks newz2000 Mat_t and all the rest :)
[20:43] <drubin> why are there no logs of this last meeting?
[20:46] <akgraner> drubin, there are - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt
[20:47] <drubin> akgraner: Look at the last date
[20:47] <drubin> akgraner: OMG I hate transparent proxies
[20:47] <drubin> akgraner: thanks... ;/
[20:47] <akgraner> you're wecome