[00:19] RAOF, math question about order of operations - do you know if the order of multiplication and division is strictly required to be left to right? I'd like to do multiplication first so the following works: 1×10²÷2×10¹ [00:19] robert_ancell: Multiplication & division are commutative; it doesn't matter which way you order them. [00:19] robert_ancell: In fact, division doesn't exist. It's a convenient fiction. [00:20] RAOF, if you treat the above as exponential numbers it does make a difference unfortunately [00:20] Well, it's because you're missing some brackets. [00:21] 1×10²×2^(-1)×10^(-1) will work, and doesn't matter what order you do it in. [00:21] yes, I wonder if this is going to make exponential numbers unusable [00:21] (without brackets) [00:22] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=620191 [00:22] Gnome bug 620191 in general "Exp button replaced with x10^y caused changed semantics" [Normal,Unconfirmed] [00:23] So, how do you tell the difference between (1×10²) (semantically a single number with an exponential representation) and 1×10²? [00:23] RAOF, that's it, I can't [00:23] Though visually you would expect to be able to, and if you wrote the equation on paper you wouldn't bother with brackets (but might use some spacing to distinguish) [00:24] eh, what's the difference? :P [00:24] Well, I *personally* wouldn't write a number like that :) [00:24] JanC, the difference matters when you do the above division example [00:24] according to the math I learned, they are exactly the same? [00:25] RAOF, what would you write? [00:25] If you want to support it I think you'll need a dedicated button. [00:25] robert_ancell: I'd probably enclose them in brackets. [00:26] So I'm wondering if I could be clever and work out the difference but I think it would just make the match unpredictable (and probably incorrect) [00:26] But that's partially because I'm a mathematician, not an engineer :) [00:26] RAOF, sure. So that sounds like the correct solution, I have to decide if the correct solution is more important than the practical solution. hmmm [00:27] eh, I'm not a mathematician, and I use brackets when I want to override normal operation order [00:28] they teached that in primary school IIRC ;) [00:28] I think you'll need a dedicated button - it's a different way to enter a number, one that's basically indistingishable from entering an operation. [00:28] Hm. If you had a dedicated button you could also do funky things, like preserve precision across calculations. [00:29] JanC: Yeah, but engineers (and scientists) deal with numbers like 2.53×10² _all the time_. [00:29] is this about an alternative to xEy notation used by many calculators? [00:29] JanC, so if you wanted to do that division, do you think you would have put the brackets in the first time? Would you have been suprised if you got the wrong answer? [00:30] JanC, yes, I removed that notation, I've been trying to get gcalctool to do correct mathematical notation where possible [00:30] RAOF, the issue is parsing the 'E' notation, as E can be a variable now. Do you know of any alternative symbols to use? [00:31] eh, E can be a variable in the middle ? [00:33] JanC, "10E-2" [00:33] I need a unicode "*10" glyph :) [00:33] still, there is nothing that looks like an operator before the E ? [00:34] depends on how you parse things of course [00:34] 10E = 10*E [00:35] so now you can do calculations like 2πr which I think is a bigger win [00:36] but that would be wrong syntax if you wanted to express an exponent? [00:36] if you have a variable E, e.g. E=2, 10E-2 = 18 [00:36] oh [00:36] you want to remove the need for * ? [00:36] please don't :P [00:37] robert_ancell: I think there actually is a ×10 glyph [00:37] it's gone! How can you do polynomials without it? (The syntax choices are in the order that is is taught in schools, i.e. polynomials are a higher priority than exponential numbers) [00:46] robert_ancell: Hm. Can you have 3.65EXP6 translate to the glyphs 3.65×10⁶ and parse that specially? Users are unlikely to be entering ×10⁶ themselves, right? [00:47] RAOF, Ctrl+E enters ×10 and puts you in superscript mode, so it is fast to enter exponentials (as long as you work out the shortcut key - it's in the tooltip) [00:48] RAOF: I enter that when writing text, but in general not on a calculator ;) [00:48] and again, 3.65EXP-6 could be a valid equation [00:49] What calculators do you guys use? I really want a good engineering/scientific/programming calculator app I can recommend that advanced users install. The best I have found are speedcrunch and qalculate [00:50] I don't use a calculator. Mathematician's don't deal with numbers. :) [00:50] a python shell ;) [00:51] heh, we're all the wrong class of users :) [00:52] but why would people want to do polynomials on their calculator? [00:52] I never owned one that could do that? [00:54] isn't that more something for a dedicated application? [00:55] well, these are the sorts of calculations that people know about, so I think it makes sense to have a tool that does that. My calculator could sort of do simple polynomials. [00:55] I think most people are happy as long as the calculator does (1+2)*3 [00:56] hm, what about using spaces? [00:56] spaces for? [00:58] well, 3.65 * E * 6 could be writen as 3.65 E 6, but not as 3.65E6 ? [01:00] JanC, looks too ambiguous [01:01] hm, another idea, variables are written in italics in math, maybe you can use that? [01:02] I think I've seen notation where the 'E' is 3/4 size, looking for a glyph [01:02] JanC, I explored that a while back, the problem is entering with the keyboard - either they always have to be in italics (which screws up the functions) or you need a modifier key for each variable [01:06] Certainly using a different E glyph would work. [01:08] 1ⅇ2 1⋿2 [01:08] ? [01:08] 1𝐄2 [01:08] 1𝐸2 [01:09] 1𝑬2, 1𝗘2 1𝑬2 [01:09] 1𝝚2 [01:11] seems like http://xrjunque.nom.es/precis/Admfns.aspx uses brackets & * when things are confusing ;) [01:12] I think the last one is better. [01:12] 1𝝚2 [01:13] yes, I think I'll do that [01:13] It will be optional though, or perhaps it should happen automatically in engineering mode? [01:13] ⅇ is blackboard bold, and will probably confuse mathematicians. ⋿ looks a lot like a reverse “there exists” quantifier; I'm not sure what that's for :). [01:13] Probably automatically in engineering mode. [01:14] RAOF, it is "notation bag membership" [01:14] whatever that is [01:14] Ah, ok. [01:24] hmm, bugzilla freaked out with that glyph, cut off half my comment!! [01:25] :) [01:41] TheMuso, hey, can you look at brasero in bzr? It's not ubuntu-desktop uploadable [01:42] robert_ancell: Sure. [01:44] robert_ancell: Slight correction, you say in your changelog that its a rebase on debian testing, but the most recent debian changelog entry is unstable. [01:46] TheMuso, right, I pulled it from testing, but it's just the version copied from unstable. Feel free to correct (I wasn't sure at the time but I have been making later packages match the last changelog entry) [01:46] robert_ancell: heh ok, will adjust. [01:56] * robert_ancell argh! I build in a chroot and it still doesn't work when I upload! [02:24] robert_ancell: brasero uploaded [02:29] TheMuso, thanks [02:30] robert_ancell: np [03:36] well all this talk about gcalctool made me pull the hold off my old version and I noticed the bit editor is fixed, you rock robert_ancell! :) it stopped showing when you inputted any hex characters for awhile there and thats all I use it for [03:37] Sarvatt, yeah, the last release was a bit of a problem. Let me know if you find any issues in the new one! [03:37] need to decide hex register dumps [03:37] decode* [03:38] Sarvatt, example? [03:43] pulling this out of my rear here but if you run say intel_reg_dumper, it gives off a list of register dumps and you can decode what they mean in the docs. like say bit 14 of the FBC_STATUS register indicates its enabled [03:43] but all you get from the dumper is 0x053f03ff [03:44] Sarvatt, can you put an example in paste.ubuntu.com? Is the issue the 0x? [03:44] from october until lucid's release if you entered say A it immediately stopped showing the bit representation of what you're inputting [03:45] only worked in decimal [03:46] like i'd enter 053 and it'd update it as I went but once I put in that f it just greyed out the area [03:46] Sarvatt, I'm confused, I thought you said there was a problem in the latest version [03:47] oh no I'm sorry, I was saying all the talk about it made me remove the hold for the really old version I had that worked to try it out and I saw it was fixed now [03:47] Sarvatt, great :) [05:19] Good morning [05:23] pitti, hey [05:24] hey robert_ancell, how are you? [05:24] pitti, good! Guess it's your tuesday now so I have to stop uploading :) [05:24] heh === bratsche is now known as br-sleep === almaisan-away is now known as al-maisan [08:02] good morning [08:03] bonjour didrocks [08:03] Guten Morgen pitti, how are you? at work at 6AM as usually in Munich apparenty? ;) [08:04] yep :) [08:10] pitti: do you think that's because this blueprint wasn't accepted for UDS-M "sprint" that it doesn't appear in the WI tracker: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-unity-une-integration ? [08:16] didrocks: I fixed the blueprint syntax, "work items" must not appear in [ ] [08:16] pitti: urgh, my fault so, sorry. Thanks! :) [08:16] de rien :) [08:49] i would like to invite everyone to my new ubuntu channel, #ubuntu-faggots [08:49] +o for everyone [09:00] thanks, jussi [09:00] I didn't really get the joke, but it didn't sound constructive [09:00] hello pitti [09:00] bonjour seb128 [09:00] pitti: he is a problem user that has been spamming pretty much across the ubuntu namespace [09:01] argh, I thought I just fixed those )#$*#$ retracers [09:01] * pitti pokes harder [09:01] hey seb128 [09:01] hello didrocks [09:02] seb128: which version of mutter do you need for gnome-shell? [09:02] 2.31+ or 2.30 is enough? [09:02] 31 [09:03] seb128: understood, thanks :) [09:03] seb128: how are you btw? [09:04] didrocks, I'm great, thank you, what about you? [09:04] morning [09:04] seb128: slowly recovering up from the lack of sleep. Otherwise I'm good thanks :) [09:04] hey rodrigo_ [09:04] hey rodrigo_ [09:04] what's the process to get a package added to ubuntu universe? [09:04] hi didrocks, seb128 [09:05] Ill leave you good people alone again. Have fun! [09:05] it's about wdfs, for tomboy webdav syncing [09:05] rodrigo_, easier is to get it in debian, otherwise try #ubuntu-motu or wiki documentation [09:06] didrocks, btw, haven't forgotten about the couchdb-based dconf backend, just waiting on desrt to write the API needed [09:06] seb128, ok [09:06] rodrigo_: sweet! no hurry in any case :) [09:12] seb128, hey, there is an evince update in bzr if you want to sponsor. [09:13] hey robert_ancell [09:13] didrocks, thanks for the autotools heads up! [09:13] robert_ancell, ok, can do that later, I'm catching up with other things right now [09:13] or maybe didrocks wants to do some sponsoring ;-) [09:13] seb128, it's not critical, just a merge [09:13] robert_ancell, btw we settled on the dconf binaries yesterday [09:13] seb128, yup, saw that. Left them in one package I see :) [09:14] right, since nothing is supposed to use the lib and there is abi, api, dbus compability whatsoever [09:14] right, since nothing is supposed to use the lib and there is abi, api, dbus compability whatsoever [09:14] ups [09:15] I somewhat think it's an upstream fail but shrug [09:15] seb128, yeah, that was what I was worried about. [09:15] what is the point to make it a system library if it's not supposed to be one? [09:16] it's really just a gsettings backends [09:16] right [09:17] robert_ancell, didrocks: did you guys decide to use that new cdbs autoreconf rules? [09:19] I haven't tried the new method but the DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_* variables seem to be working well [09:20] well, we had discussions about it previous cycles I think [09:20] didrocks, I think the main difference will be one line instead of 4 in debian/rules? i.e. autoreconf runs the same set of tools [09:20] it's not using autoreconf but trying to call autoconf, automake etc [09:20] where autoreconf has the logic to run autotools in the right order to work [09:21] seb128, sure, it will be better to use autoreconf [09:21] (my point being I've done a number of packages and they seem to build well, so I expect the autoreconf stuff will work just as well) [09:22] ok, nice [09:24] pitti, did you see my workitems ping yesterday? [09:24] pitti, could you reset the maverick charts for us? [09:24] seb128: no, I don't think I did [09:24] the trendline is not adjusted we want to start from now [09:24] hm, we did last week already? [09:24] ok [09:24] see http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html [09:24] I checked with rickspencer3 and he agreed to reset [09:25] seb128: robert_ancell I guess this tool is better if debian is using it, we can reduce the diff too [09:25] seb128: robert_ancell: needs sponsoring for evince? [09:25] didrocks, debian is not using it they don't need to autoreconf at build time usually [09:25] didrocks, if you can sponsor it that would be nice, I'm looking to some workitems and other things right now [09:26] seb128: sure but we have a tool that is called on the right time, copying the old configure and some cleaning safety [09:26] seb128: way better to redo that for every package [09:26] right [09:26] so i'll be in favor going this path [09:26] I'm just saying it's not going to win us lot of diff over debian [09:26] seb128: doing evince [09:26] not arguing we should not use it ;-) [09:26] thanks [09:27] robert_ancell, great merge work ;-) [09:27] seb128, so much merging to do... :) [09:27] robert_ancell, we should be almost done no? [09:28] don't bother for those were the packaging is very different [09:28] ie gdm [09:28] seb128, I see you've already got stuck into the gdm anger this morning :) [09:28] lol [09:29] seb128: committed [09:29] pitti, danke [09:29] seb128: btw, http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-1.html seems a bit overly optimistic? [09:29] robert_ancell, can you push you rhythmbox changes? [09:30] pitti, right, it was sort of a fuzzy target [09:30] seb128, whoops, pushing now [09:30] I'm moving things to alpha-2 tiday [09:30] we need that tool [09:30] today [09:30] although the dconf one is done [09:30] robert_ancell, thanks [09:30] seb128: you can mark dconf as done [09:30] congrats to robert_ancell for doing all his alpha-1 tasks :) [09:30] pitti, right, doing so, thanks [09:30] * pitti hugs robert_ancell [09:30] pitti, did you review the binaries? [09:30] seb128: erm, no, did you ask me to? [09:30] sorry if I missed it [09:30] ok gtg, see you guys tomorrow [09:30] good night robert_ancell [09:31] pitti, no, but since you rejected the first upload I figured you would review the new one [09:31] ah, can do in a minute [09:31] just uploading udisks [09:31] pitti, sorry if that was wrong assumption I did ;-) [09:31] pitti, danke [09:32] seb128, shall we send the call for testing now? [09:33] ara, hey, how are you? [09:33] seb128, doing good, thanks. yourself? [09:33] I'm great thank you! [09:34] ara, the call for testing, yes please, send it whenever you are ready ;-) [09:34] seb128, OK, will do [09:34] ara, thanks! [09:34] ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-qa? [09:34] * seb128 hugs ara for the great work [09:34] * ara hugs seb128 back [09:34] ara, yes [09:41] seb128: dconf newed [09:42] pitti, thanks! [09:56] slomo, seb128: what is the plan for gnome-codec-installer for maverick? will it be superseeded by session-installer? or is it still worth keeping it? [09:58] mvo: what's session-installer? [09:58] mvo, I've no opinion on it, I'm open to discuss it [09:58] slomo: the thing that glatzor works on to provide a packagekit compatible dbus api [09:59] seb128: ok, I was wondering if its woth spending time to make the backend for g-c-i optionally use aptdaemon [09:59] I guess that is a good move [09:59] slomo: I assume you would take a aptdaemon backend patch? [09:59] I know user testing showed that g-c-i has not a nice user experience [10:00] not sure if we want to work over it or just drop it for something else though [10:00] mostly because of our package naming [10:00] mvo: ah, well, the session-installer thing is suboptimal because of packagekit restrictions [10:00] that an the number of clicks [10:00] and the fact that it does list and select all the alternative for you [10:00] slomo: what problems exactly? do you have more info on this? [10:01] and the fact that there is quite some dialog jumping around during the installation [10:01] mvo: packagekit only knows about "success" or "failure", the codec installer has more than that (e.g. some plugins could be installed) [10:01] seb128: is there a summary of the issue? I know that there is talk about it, I heard about it only as chat, not as a written summary or something [10:01] slomo: aha, ok [10:01] mvo, not sure, I can check with ivanka if you want [10:02] seb128: thanks, would be nice [10:02] mvo, the complain were the number of clicks, the dialogs jumping rather than having something integrated to the software and the names [10:02] mvo, I will check with design [10:02] seb128: number of clicks> well, one to confirm the search, one to install [10:02] plus codec-warning-dialog (I would love to ditch this one) [10:02] on their user testing it was over ten clicks to get rhythmbox to play a mp3 [10:03] on a stock installation [10:03] and they said it should be one click ;-) [10:03] seb128: it *should* be no click ;) [10:03] well you need to ask the user [10:03] seb128: but there are various contrains that make the ideal-world less ideal :P [10:03] seb128: ideally it would be installed by default [10:04] right, there is ideally what would happen and what we can technically do [10:05] yeah, that is my point. but I guess if there is no design yet for it, then its not feasible to radically change it for maverick [10:05] not enough time [10:05] right [10:06] thanks seb128, I do the merge and add a aptdaemon backend and send that as a patch to slomo then for now [10:06] mvo: sounds good [10:06] thanks [10:06] and maybe make it use less windows (more inline progress like the latest update-manager) [10:07] seb128: do you know what happend with this "morphing windows" stuff from DX? that may be a good target for this [10:08] no really, check with bratsche [10:10] ok, will do. thanks [10:10] g-c-i> fun little app, I like it [10:10] * mvo hugs slomo [10:12] :) [10:25] mvo, I still get update-notifier icon in the tray [10:27] chrisccoulson, hey [10:27] hey seb128, how are you today? [10:28] I'm great ;-) [10:28] what about you? [10:28] seb128 - i'm good thanks, although a bit tired. i had quite a late night getting the rest of the hardy extensions updated [10:28] but they're all done now :) [10:30] seb128: aha, right. I fix it [10:31] mvo, thanks ;-) [10:31] chrisccoulson, :-( [10:31] chrisccoulson, sorry that you had to work on an holiday [10:31] seb128 - that's ok, it's better than doing gardening ;) [10:31] although i had to do some of that too [10:32] lol [10:32] it's not raining in the uk? [10:32] we have cold rainy weather there [10:33] well, not sure why robert_ancell remerged evince as it's a no win (debian just renamed the patch I've integrated as a SRU differently), but well, pushed [10:33] hey chrisccoulson [10:33] morning guys. [10:33] chrisccoulson, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-mozilla-team-discussion btw [10:33] hey ayan, how are you? [10:33] chrisccoulson, could you update your alpha1 items there? [10:34] chrisccoulson, I guess you want to move those to alpha2 now? [10:34] seb128: doing great. [10:36] hey didrocks [10:37] seb128 - yeah, i can do that. i discussed those with rick on the phone last week and he suggested i move all of my alpha1 work items to alpha 2 anyway [10:37] chrisccoulson, now is time to do it, we will review the chart for the meeting today [10:39] didrocks, right, robert_ancell seems to be trying to be a good citizen and merges all sources once for the cycle [10:40] seb128: I've already merged evince one week ago, hence my wondering… [10:40] he maybe didn't notice [10:41] I can't really speak for him though ;-) [10:41] yeah, I guess that if he grepped on merges.ubuntu.com, the "updated merge" isn't really noticeable :) [10:55] mvo, the rgba emacs issue is likely an emacs bug [10:59] seb128: fair enough [11:00] I will let cody comment [11:11] mvo, using the new update-manager in maverick you need to enter the polkit authentification once for refresh and once to install upgrades, that's a bug or a polkit limitation since those are different actions so require different permissions set? [11:12] mvo, should I open a bug? ;-) [11:14] seb128: please open a bug [11:14] seb128: its kind-of a feature [11:15] seb128: having fine-grained control over the thing [11:15] seb128: please report against aptdaemon [11:15] mvo, ok [11:17] mvo, will do that after lunch [11:17] chrisccoulson, when is the firefox new version scheduled for now? [11:17] upstream schedule [11:18] seb128: lunch> good idea! [11:18] seb128 - june 7th [11:18] chrisccoulson, thanks [11:19] seb128 - https://wiki.mozilla.org/Releases/ says "early June" now, but an e-mail i have specifies the actual date [11:19] slomo: aptdaemon backend is ready, I'm not sure if I can commit directly to svn, I will send you a bugreport+patch [11:19] chrisccoulson, ok [11:22] chrisccoulson, pitti: hey [11:22] do you know where https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Mozilla/FirefoxHardyJaunty should be sent? [11:22] u-d-a? [11:23] uda sounds fine [11:26] pitti, thanks [11:26] chrisccoulson, can you check that the wiki draft is ok with you? [11:26] I've just updated it to point to ara's email for testing instructions [11:26] pitti, ^ comments are welcome from you as well if you have any [11:26] seb128 - yeah, can do [11:26] (rickspencer asked me to send that announce when we are ready for testing) [11:27] hum, 1, 2, 3 are missing it seems [11:28] chrisccoulson, you are editing? can you add [11:28] [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/FirefoxNewSupportModel [11:28] [2] https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ppa [11:28] or the ppa is rather 3 [11:29] seb128 - yeah, i was just going to do that [11:29] thanks [11:34] seb128, chrisccoulson: I also blogged about it for people reading only planet.u.c (http://ubuntutesting.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/call-for-testing-firefox/) [11:34] ara, thanks! [11:40] seb128 - ok, i've finished editing now [11:40] chrisccoulson, thank you! === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch [11:55] chrisccoulson, "New firefox support model and coming changes in stable updates" [11:56] chrisccoulson, "New firefox support model and coming changes in stable updates" [11:56] grrr [11:56] sorry [11:56] chrisccoulson, does that seem good for the email title? [11:56] seb128 - yeah, that seems fine [11:56] or "coming changes for the stable Ubuntu versions"? [11:59] ok sent [11:59] pitti, who is moderating u-d-a? [12:00] I can [12:00] pitti, if you could review my email there that would be great [12:01] it's not in the queue yet, though [12:02] From: info@banksnews.gr [12:02] Subject: Σενάριο καταστροφής και… κρατικοποίησης τραπεζών! [12:02] seb128: ^ this wasn't it, right? :-) [12:02] * pitti just killed that [12:02] pitti, it was! [12:02] jk ;-) [12:02] lol [12:02] so, might take a bit [12:02] I'm back in 30, lunch time [12:02] pitti, it went through it seems [12:02] ah, so someone beat me to it then [12:02] good [12:03] so, the fun begins now ;) [12:03] pitti, is uda moderated for ubuntu emails? [12:03] yes [12:03] pitti, it's weird, I pinged you when I sent the email [12:03] somebody is very efficient at moderating it seems ;-) [12:03] or there is a whitelist, which I'm not on :) (nor Steve, etc.) [12:04] seb128 special magic [12:04] anyway, bbl [12:04] enjoy! [12:04] lunch there as well [12:04] * didrocks is sure there is a lot of (if nick == "seb128") everywhere in ubuntu and in the infrastructure :) [12:04] pitti: seb128 enjoy your lunch :) [12:08] didrocks, thanks, you as well if you didn't lunch yet [12:09] seb128: thanks :) I'll a little bit later, still want to finish some stuff before === oubiwann is now known as oubiwann_ === oubiwann_ is now known as oubiwann === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow === rodrigo__ is now known as rodrigo_ [13:29] pitti: silly question, why does the stuff from https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-m-update-manager-improvements not show up on the foundations workitems traker? [13:29] mvo, you need to accept it [13:29] mvo: it's only proposed for maverick, not accepted [13:30] mvo, the serie goal [13:30] aha, and I have not the powers to do that myself. thanks, I will ask colin to ack it [13:30] mvo: can do for you [13:31] mvo: done, and fixed the "workitems" -> "work items" typo, too [13:31] thanks :) [13:34] vuntz, hey [13:34] vuntz, could you get dconf listed on your gnome versions? === kenvandine_ is now known as kenvandine [13:37] seb128: ah, dconf. Hrm, good point [13:37] vuntz, thanks! [13:51] good morning [13:52]