[02:53] <drew212> anyone triaging right now?
[02:54] <drew212> I'm looking to tag along to see how other people do it, i have done a few, but I'm not sure what I'm doing correctly and what I'm not.
[03:15] <PrototypeX29A> drew212: i don't think most people do it correctly :)
=== kermiac is now known as kermiac_work
=== kermiac_work is now known as Guest42358
=== Guest42358 is now known as kermiac_working
[04:33] <SmSpillaz> so I hear that the next bug day is for compiz
[04:33] <SmSpillaz> feel free to fire general crash reports and complaints in this general direction
[04:35] <stenten> SmSpillaz: Are you saying you're available for compiz triage questions??
[04:35]  * SmSpillaz hides
[04:35] <SmSpillaz> stenten: well, I pretty much have to be
[04:35] <stenten> How kind of you :)
[04:37] <SmSpillaz> it is the middle of exams season for you
[04:37] <SmSpillaz> *me
[04:37] <SmSpillaz> plus, I'm rewriting bits of core
[04:37] <SmSpillaz> so it's like
[04:37] <SmSpillaz> arghhghghghgg
[04:41] <soreau> you can restate your bug report in an irc-friendly format here (<512chars?) if you are present or ask any question about compiz
[06:19] <somethinginteres> hi all, some n00b questions:  I am wondering if there's a place I can go to explain the basics of launchpad? What each status of a bug means what 'branch exists' means etc. Also, when a patch is submitted for a reported bug how does that fix get to me? Will ubuntu find patches and send them out in the upgrade manager?
[06:20] <micahg> somethinginteres: help.launchpad.net
[06:21] <micahg> somethinginteres: patches are reviewed and applied when appropriate
[06:22] <micahg> somethinginteres: patches normally go through -proposed and then to -updates if they test fine
[06:23] <somethinginteres> thanks for that micahg couldn't find that link anywhere :) Is it possible to test it and tell you guys or is that left to specific people?
[06:28] <micahg> somethinginteres: you have a patch?
[06:28] <micahg> !sru > somethinginteres
[06:28] <ubot2> somethinginteres, please see my private message
[09:33] <Wilcey> ?
[09:52] <stenten> Is there a way to check how many bugs you've touched today for the 5-A-Day program?
[09:56] <BlackZ> stenten: sure, https://bugs.launchpad.net/~yourlpusername
[09:57] <stenten> But that doesn't have timestamps :(
[09:57] <BlackZ> stenten: open the bug manually and check
[09:58] <BlackZ> or try to use another search criteria
[09:58] <BlackZ> generally "newest first" could be sufficient
[09:59] <BlackZ> it shows you the more recent bugs
[10:00] <stenten> Well I can search my 'most recently changed', but I still end up with bugs where I wasn't the last one to comment.
[10:01] <stenten> I just wanted to know if there was an easier way, that's all.
[10:02] <BlackZ> stenten: depends also how you have marked them
[10:02] <BlackZ> if they're "Invalid" or "Fix released" they will not show
[10:02] <BlackZ> BTW you can do another search for find them
[10:24] <cappie> hiya guys... I have a question about netbook-launcher
[10:25] <cappie> I upgraded this morning and appearantly netbook-launcher was updated as well..
[10:25] <cappie> everything looks nicer now, but my video playback went to hell...
[10:26] <cappie> from a good framerate (>30 fps) to <10 fps...
[10:26] <cappie> on my Asus eee PC 901
[10:30] <cappie> ok, so everyone is idle in here :)
[12:21] <yofel> does anyone know what would cause a "frontend: Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server :0.0." ? (bug 589002)
[12:21] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 589002 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "package grub-pc 1.98-1ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1 (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589002
[12:47] <xelister> for me kmail is unusable FAIL. It always hangs in 10 seconds from start. Anyone want to debug with me?
[13:04] <xelister> how to install debug symbols?  I get this error - http://pastebin.com/k48wzq9Z
[13:06] <BlackZ> xelister: there's a conflict between packages, what do you need to install precisely?
[13:07] <xelister> well all the stuff to debug kmail's crashes/hangs
[13:07] <xelister> but why there is conflict, isnt this a bug
[13:09] <BlackZ> xelister: what's your KDE version?
[13:09] <xelister> Im on ubuntu lucid 10.04
[13:09] <BlackZ> xelister: kubuntu or ubuntu?
[13:10] <xelister> ubuntu
[13:14] <BlackZ> xelister: try to find that on http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/
[13:17] <xelister> 0x00007f779fb9cf52 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libkmailprivate.so.4
[13:17] <xelister> how to get these symbols?
[13:21] <xelister> hmm actually, it seems to not really crash, just work really sloooow, and GUI doesnt respond
[13:22] <xelister> gmail is stucked at 37%,  and while it is stucked (download), OTHER inboxes are downloading
[13:40] <gnomefreak> anyone know what gnome bug tracker uses for your user name? is it with/without the email @...  real name)
[13:41] <pedro_> gnomefreak, is the email address
[13:41] <gnomefreak> pedro_: with the @...
[13:42] <pedro_> gnomefreak, yes, i haven't noticed any email address without it :-P
[13:43] <gnomefreak> im going to try again. maybe it was too early after account was created
[13:43] <gnomefreak> yep that is it. i was able to log in this time. thanks pedro_
[13:43] <xelister> gpg: key 428D7C01: "Ubuntu Debug Symbol Archive Automatic Signing Key <ubuntu-archive@lists.ubuntu.com>" not changed
[13:43] <xelister> gpg: key 5E0577F2: public key "Martin Pitt <martin@piware.de>" imported
[13:43] <xelister> how to verify above keys are correct?
[13:44] <pedro_> gnomefreak, you're welcome
[14:14] <xelister> HELP, my ubuntu got infected with vissious virus!
[14:15] <xelister> it's called nepomukuserver, eats all cpu&mem, and apparently is responsible for some of kmail hangs.  how about NOT installing that bs by default?
[14:15] <jpds> xelister: That's no virus, but a part of KDE?
[14:16] <xelister> uses resources, doesn't do anything usefull... seems like a virus. I wonder if it can self-propagate without ubuntu
[14:16] <jpds> Doesn't _everything_ use resoures?
[14:16] <xelister> but not so much, and it use resources when I want.  Right now seriously nepomuku is at least unwanted bloatware
[14:17] <jpds> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Metadata/Nepomuk/NepomukServer
[14:17] <xelister> also doesnt cause other apps like kmail to have hangs
[14:18] <xelister> why upgrade to 10.04 didnt asked me  [ ] Hey, Socaill Symantic Desktop (what ever the hell this means) is here for you! Wastes mem&cpu for free! Hangs kmail. Install?
[14:18] <jpds> xelister: Ask #kubuntu-devel.
[14:18] <xelister> * y/n/turn it's developer into a whale
[15:13] <yofel> xelister: there is a bug about high resource usage here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228081
[15:13] <ubot2> KDE bug 228081 in general "cpu load is pretty high (virtuoso and nepomukstorage)" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[17:25] <micahg> could I get someone with nautilus to look at bug 589169, I think the behavior is normal, but I want to be sure
[17:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 589169 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "simlink profile directory echoing profile directory (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589169
[17:43] <Pa_trick17> help newbie: bug 580382 can't reproduce bug - differences: not nvidia but amd Nonfree-Driver and german language-pack installed while installing lucid
[17:43] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 580382 in compiz (Ubuntu) "openoffice 3.2 extension manager not responding (affects: 1) (heat: 80)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/580382
[17:43] <Pa_trick17> ... can i write it like that in a comment?
[17:56] <pedro_> Pa_trick17, yes, please write that as a comment, would be nice to also ask the reporter to test with a new user created in the system there, please set it to incomplete after that
[17:57] <Pa_trick17> pedro_: thx
[17:57] <pedro_> np
[18:02] <pedro_> micahg, well, it's a symlink not sure what he's expecting... I'll comment on the report though
[18:04] <micahg> pedro_: thanks, like I said, thought it was normal, but want to be sure
=== deryck is now known as deryck[lunch]
=== intel is now known as om26er
[18:52] <zus> good morning
=== deryck[lunch] is now known as deryck
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Good Morning, zus
[19:37] <zus> hi charlie-tca
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Have you read the wiki triaging page?
[19:38] <charlie-tca> this one - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
[19:40] <zus> yep, i actually still have it bookmarked
[19:43] <charlie-tca> Great! We have a bug day today for compiz, if you are familiar with it.
[19:45] <charlie-tca> zus: what areas are you interested in?
[19:49] <zus> charlie-tca,  havent throughly thought that out really....what would a well pretty much a first time linux user do?
[19:51] <charlie-tca> Click the "untriaged bugs" link on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Untriaged%20bugs , pick something that the 'Package' is an application or program that you actually use.
[19:52] <charlie-tca> 'linux' is the kernel
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Would you like to go through one?
[19:54] <charlie-tca> zus: go ahead to the list of open bugs, open bug 589299
[19:54] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 589299 in gnome-screensaver (Ubuntu) "Can't unlock screen when using a password-less account (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589299
[19:55] <zus> cant unlockscreen when using a passwordless account ?
[19:55] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Status is 'new' so it needs to be triaged
[19:56] <charlie-tca> It is gnome-screensaver, so if you use gnome, it is installed on your system
[19:57] <zus> i actually use kubuntu,
[19:57] <charlie-tca> oh, much harder than.
[19:58] <zus> but...this is an interensting item.
[19:58] <charlie-tca> Gnome-screensaver settings has a box checked by default - lock screen when screensaver activates.
[19:59] <charlie-tca> The simple answer is to uncheck the box.
[19:59] <zus> yep same with me.
[19:59] <charlie-tca> The screensaver will not be allowed to unlock without a password because it is a security issue then
[20:00] <charlie-tca> This particular bug can be turned into a question by checking in the upper right "Convert to question".
[20:00] <zus> so this isnt so much a bug rather than a missed item on user set up
[20:01] <David-T> its still a bug if gnome-screensaver puts you in an inescapable position
[20:01] <charlie-tca> The reporter has a wish for it to work without unchecking the box
[20:01] <David-T> if it wont let the screen unlock, it shouldn't lock.
[20:01] <charlie-tca> David-T: but that is not the issue here. The issue is he wants it to unlock without a password. It is a configuration setting
[20:02] <David-T> the issue here is that if you create a user without a password, gnome-screensaver will happily lock the screen then be unable to unlock it. telling the user they need to change another setting seems silly to me.
[20:02] <zus> brb i've got to step away a sec..
[20:02] <David-T> sure, it's _correct_ but it's a bug that they have to
[20:02] <charlie-tca> The user has a password, they just need to input it
[20:03] <charlie-tca> If they don't input the password, it is working as designed
[20:03] <charlie-tca> The reporter needs to uncheck the configuration setting to lock the screen
[20:03] <David-T> well, I'm basing my comment on 'I created an account, inserted no password and checked the "don't ask for a password on login" checkbox'
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Don't ask on login does not mean "doesn't have a password"
[20:04] <charlie-tca> oops
[20:04] <David-T> no, but "inserted no password" does...
[20:04] <charlie-tca> yes
[20:05] <charlie-tca> but it is still the responsibility of the setup person to configure the system to work properly for that setup
[20:05] <xelister> currently shipped kmail is tottall bullshit, it can hang or crash in many ways.   some of bugs are fixed upstream. How about shortly releasing upgraded kmail? possible? in lucid?
[20:05] <David-T> sure, but I would say the configuration should work and it's a bug that it doesn't
[20:05] <charlie-tca> !language
[20:05] <ubot2> Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.
[20:06] <David-T> but I'm not going to argue about it :)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> The actual bug is that the system ever allows a user without a password, isn't it?
[20:07] <stenten> (If I may) I think the actual bug is that you can't just hit Enter without entering a password to unlock it.
[20:09] <David-T> Well, that would fix the bug, but I don't see any need to prevent the user from creating an account without a password if they want to - it should just work properly and not lock them out...
[20:09] <trinikrono> hey all is it bug day?
[20:09] <charlie-tca> It does, when the screensaver configuration is set correctly.
[20:09]  * xelister with Lucid, every day feels like a bug day ;)
[20:10] <zus> sorry bout that
[20:10] <charlie-tca> xelister: have you asked on #kubuntu or #kubuntu-devel about the kmail issues?
[20:11] <charlie-tca> zus: no problem
[20:11] <stenten> What's happens at the login screen if you have no password but leave "don't ask for a password on login" unchecked? That should be the same functionality that the locked screen has.
[20:11] <xelister> I solved 3 of  _4_ !!! bugs in kamil.  With help of #kontact  #akonadi  etc
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
[20:12] <xelister> but why Im debugging this all? I just wanted to use my email ಥ_ಥ
[20:12] <charlie-tca> xelister: again, #kubuntu or #kubuntu-devel
[20:13] <xelister> why? this are clearly bugs to be fixed. is it not the channel?
[20:13] <charlie-tca> no
[20:13] <zus> my particular issue i have disabled my  options for inactivity...my pc stays on regardless, as intended... my monitor shuts off after 10 minutes... ive looked from bio to settings to monitor's menus
[20:13] <charlie-tca> this is bug triaging
[20:13] <yofel> xelister: simple question: where's your bug report that you need help with? (bug REPORT)
[20:13] <trinikrono> zus: maybe its the monitor itself?
[20:13] <charlie-tca> zus: that is the kernel settings or power management settings
[20:13] <David-T> ok. it seems that when you create a new user and leave the password blank it actually creates a user without a valid password, rather than with a blank password.
[20:14] <charlie-tca> which is then a different bug
[20:14] <David-T> it should probably be more explicit about that. but in that case i agree there's no bug (except perhaps in user settings0
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[20:14] <yofel> xelister: also, which KDE version are you running? you do have kde 4.4.4?
[20:15] <charlie-tca> zus: on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs at the bottom, it refers to several pages we use constantly for triaging bugs. One of those is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[20:15] <zus> charlie-tca,   back to what we was saying,...do i click convert to question,
[20:15] <charlie-tca> yes
[20:15] <xelister> yofel:  yes, 4:4.4.2-0ubuntu2, fully up to date lucid
[20:16] <yofel> xelister: that's 4.4.2, not 4.4.4
[20:16] <xelister> ohhh
[20:16] <yofel> xelister: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.4.4
[20:17]  * xelister (ಠ_ృ) puts on his monocle
[20:17] <charlie-tca> We are going to use a standard response from "a support request" to copy and paste into the box when you convert it
[20:18] <yofel> or you can use the LP improvements, and it will auto-paste the response in the box
[20:18] <zus> ok im with you so far
[20:18] <charlie-tca> zus: Then if you want to be nice, you add to the response that you can go to screensaver settings and uncheck the lock screen box.
[20:18] <charlie-tca> That bug is then completed
[20:19] <charlie-tca> As you go through bugs, you can ask questions here, and anyone able to will help you out
[20:21] <charlie-tca> zus: Thanks for helping with these bugs
[20:21] <zus> i can find the "standard response"
[20:22] <zus> charlie-tca,  thank you as well for helping me.
[20:22] <charlie-tca> no problem
[20:22] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#A%20support%20request
[20:22] <charlie-tca> Just copy the part in the shaded box
[20:25] <charlie-tca> And now, on to your next bug
[20:26] <zus>  would providing the solution  as well be a good idea? at this point as well?
[20:27] <zus> or would that be elsewhere?
[20:27] <charlie-tca> first, make it the question. Then click on "answer this" and give the answer, yes
[20:28] <BUGabundo> guud evening
[20:28] <charlie-tca> We would not answer it on the bug itself, but in the answer tracker instead
[20:32] <zus> charlie-tca,  thank you so much, then. 1 down - 4 to go?
[20:32] <charlie-tca> heh, yup
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Hello, BUGabundo
[20:33] <BUGabundo> hey Charles :)
[20:33] <xelister> yey I found over 6 bugs in kmail and kontact
[20:34] <xelister> some developers should feel ambarassed now
[20:34] <BUGabundo> woot
[20:34] <BUGabundo> only 6?
[20:34] <BUGabundo> I remember when there was the migration from 3.x to 4
[20:34] <BUGabundo> I would find that or more per day :)
[20:34] <xelister> and only 3 of them are critical ALWAYS CRASH or ALWAYS HANG bugs! how cool
[20:35] <xelister> kmail makes me want to ask for refund
[20:35] <BUGabundo> ahahaahahahahahahha
[20:35] <BUGabundo> only have one so far
[20:35] <BUGabundo> crashs on start
[20:35] <BUGabundo> other then that, I'm cool
[20:35] <xelister> ohh I know this one
[20:35] <BUGabundo> you running maverick or the PPA version ?
[20:35] <xelister> it's the akonadi/seppuku b.s.
[20:36] <BUGabundo> can you CC me , please?
[20:36] <xelister> you need to start damn akonadiserver somehow. Sometimes it doesnt start for various reasons
[20:36] <xelister> one of them is bug in apparmor profile but afair
[20:36] <xelister> ..it was resolved afair
[20:36] <xelister> BUGabundo: all that is in lucid
[20:36] <xelister> BUGabundo: ok.  can you get someone to mark this bugs as high.. or otherwise fix the damn bugs???
[20:37] <BUGabundo> xelister: you really should run trunk
[20:37] <zus> what if i missed a step in the process can i go back and add/fix?
[20:37] <BUGabundo> bugs don't get really fixed in stable releases
[20:37] <xelister> BUGabundo: huhm... but Its a production system.. I should switch to maverick!? or what
[20:37] <charlie-tca> what step?
[20:37] <BUGabundo> specially with the diff time frame we (k/Ubuntu) have from KDE release cycle
[20:37] <charlie-tca> Everything can be fixed.
[20:38] <xelister> "upgrading" to lucid was a totall trap already and now yo urecommand maverik :> ?
[20:38] <BUGabundo> xelister: no need to run maverick
[20:38] <BUGabundo> but you can run KDE/Kontack from one of two PPAs from kubuntu-ninjas
[20:38] <BUGabundo> one is weekly snapshots
[20:38] <BUGabundo> and the other is the most recent upstream stable version
[20:39] <xelister> kubuntu ninjas ◔_◔
[20:40] <BUGabundo> LOL
[20:41] <BUGabundo> its the affectionate team name
[20:43] <xelister> I would like to hire kubuntu ninjas
[20:43] <BUGabundo> LOL
[20:43] <BUGabundo> try :)
[20:43] <xelister> and send them on mission to asssinate people responsible for this nepomuk stuff
[20:44] <hggdh> well, then any chance you have of getting it fixed will go down the drain
[20:47] <BUGabundo> xelister: that would be just two very nice guys :(
[20:48] <hggdh> pedro_: there?
[20:48] <pedro_> hggdh, yeah
[20:49] <hggdh> pedro_: we have some -control applications waiting for a while
[20:49] <hggdh> pedro_: some of them are ready for final ack/nak
[20:49] <hggdh> pedro_: given that you are pretty much the only one with auth...
[20:49] <hggdh> (sorry)
[20:50] <pedro_> hggdh, ok I'll look into those
[20:50] <hggdh> pedro_: muchas gracias, and all that
[20:51] <pedro_> por nada hggdh ;-)
[20:51] <hggdh> heh. This is pretty much all Spanish I can *write* ;-)
[20:53] <micahg> creo que escribes espanol como que hablas espanol
[20:53]  * micahg wonders if that was accurate...
[20:53] <jpds> micahg: Si.
[20:54] <jpds> Bueno, mas o menos.
[20:54] <BUGabundo> eu falo portugues
[20:54] <BUGabundo> é parecido
[20:54] <micahg> jpds: gracias
[20:54] <BUGabundo> :)
[20:54] <jpds> BUGabundo: Que.
[20:55] <hggdh> well, it is similar (Portuguese and Spanish). Reading is no big deal, writing it (or speaking) is catastrophic
[21:27] <xelister> BUGabundo: Im debugging the damn problem with kmail, want to help debug?
[21:27] <BUGabundo> busy
[21:28] <BUGabundo> if you give me a few (many) minutes
[21:28] <BUGabundo> I can do it again
[21:28] <BUGabundo> need to process my mail
[21:28] <xelister> k
[21:28] <xelister> I ALSO NEED TO PROCESS MY MAIL lol.
[21:29] <yofel> xelister: you have 4.4.4 now? which bug are you at now?
[21:29] <yofel> kmail works fine for me though...
[21:30] <xelister> 4.4.2
[21:30] <yofel> well, the bit that I use it for, I use TB most of the time
[21:30] <BUGabundo> no
[21:30] <BUGabundo> he is on lucid version
[21:31] <yofel> well, he *should* update, there might be kmail fixes since then
[21:31] <micahg> yofel: well, usually there are updates in -backports, but they haven't happened yet this cycle
[21:32] <yofel> hm, I'm not sure when they'll come, didn't follow the UDS discussion on that
[21:32] <xelister> so how to get theat newest version
[21:32] <BUGabundo> ppa?
[21:32] <yofel> xelister: I gave you the link...
[21:33] <BUGabundo> (2010-06-03 20:16:34) yofel: xelister: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.4.4
[21:37] <yofel> meh, anyone an idea when debian/ubuntu w3m is supposed to support button-tags? (So you can actually use LP again)
[21:38] <yofel> maybe we should just switch to lynx
[21:38] <micahg> yofel: ?
[21:38] <yofel> micahg: tried to login to LP with w3m?
[21:39] <micahg> yofel: ah, sorry, wasn't familiar with that browser
[21:39] <yofel> the 'Continue' button isn't clickable
[21:39] <yofel> which means you can't login
[21:40] <BUGabundo> micahg: how have you missed www?
[21:40] <yofel> and the LP devs have no intention to reverse that change (bug 523229)
[21:40] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 523229 in canonical-identity-provider "The Continue button isn't selectable in w3m for sso login (affects: 4) (dups: 3) (heat: 34)" [High,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/523229
[21:40] <micahg> yofel: you should file a bug for w3m, not LP
[21:41] <micahg> BUGabundo: what do you mean?
[21:41] <yofel> well, there is debian 136810
[21:41] <ubot2> Debian bug 136810 in w3m "w3m: support for the <button> tag (HTML 4.01)" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/136810
[21:42] <yofel> #17 says it's been fixed almost 2 years ago, but the fix is nowhere to be seen
[21:43] <yofel> probably something else
[21:44] <charlie-tca> !away > zus
[21:44] <ubot2> zus, please see my private message
[21:57] <yofel> oh, and from #kubuntu-devel : <ScottK> amichair: We are still working out the policy details of getting the point releases (e.g. KDE 4.4.4) into the official repositories.  the backports (like 4.5 stuff on Lucid) won't ever go into an official repository.
[21:57] <yofel> xelister, BUGabundo ^
[21:58] <BUGabundo> I know
[21:58] <BUGabundo> usual stuff
[22:11] <xelister> yofel: so 4.4.4 can go into lucid?
[22:11] <xelister> because really 4.4.2 works like ***** over here
[22:11] <xelister> in kmail&kontact
[22:12] <micahg> xelister: usually in -backports
[22:22] <yofel> xelister: it will get in at some point, but please download 4.4.4 from the ppa for now, the KDE folks will ignore you if you say that you have 4.4.2
[22:22] <BUGabundo> yep
[22:23] <BUGabundo> that's why I started by asking you to use most current version
[22:23] <BUGabundo> before reporting bugs
[22:23] <BUGabundo> I know its hard to take it
[22:23] <BUGabundo> but stable releases *won't* get most of those bugs fixed
[22:23] <BUGabundo> unless they are critical or security related
[22:24] <xelister> BUGabundo: not being able to use kmail for days, can it qualify?
[22:24] <BUGabundo> well, from LP POV only you are affected by it :(
[22:24] <micahg> BUGabundo: LTS might be a little more flexible as long as the specific fix in minimal
[22:24] <xelister> BUGabundo: no, me and fellow ubuntu users
[22:24] <yofel> xelister: sure, but kubuntu KDE bugs only get fixed by KDE point releases unless they're critical
[22:24] <xelister> out of 4 people I know
[22:24] <yofel> xelister: so please install 4.4.4
[22:25] <xelister> yofel: it's downloading
[22:25] <yofel> good :)
[22:25]  * xelister pauses all his german pr0n torrents
[22:25] <BUGabundo> come one dude
[22:25] <BUGabundo> I know it's a joke
[22:25] <xelister> oh ok sorry BUGabundo not a problem I can ssh it to you
[22:25] <BUGabundo> but reframe from it :\
[22:25] <xelister> ok ok :)
[22:25] <BUGabundo> ahahahaah
[22:25] <BUGabundo> I have enough
[22:26] <zus_> charlie-tca,  wow power outage
[22:26] <charlie-tca> heh, works wonders
[22:27] <charlie-tca> did you finish the bug?
[22:27] <zus_> no i was typing everythign in when the lights went out
[22:27] <xelister> perhaps powerplant upgraded too
[22:28] <zus_> and... because of it i had to restart FF.... yea how do i put my launcher back in to the menu haha
[22:28] <zus_> lesson learned :)
[22:28] <xelister> LP would be nice to have auto-save each 30 seconds or so via ajax
[22:28] <xelister> to auto save drafts
[22:28] <xelister> actually, even better if browser would do it.. auto save forms you where editing
[22:29] <zus_> no to use a virtual maching in recreating bugs
[22:29] <BUGabundo> file a bug :)
[22:29] <charlie-tca> ooops, I don't know how to do that in Kubuntu
[22:29] <BUGabundo> ?
[22:30] <BUGabundo> charlie-tca: most KDE bugs go upstream
[22:30] <charlie-tca> yup
[22:30] <BUGabundo> only packaging bugs stay in LP
[22:30] <xelister> yeah, why most kde bugs go upstream, that always puzzles me
[22:30] <charlie-tca> Because Kubuntu does not have the developers to work them
[22:30] <xelister> for example, perhaps it will turn out that kmail's problems are fault of packaging some bugged version of kde
[22:31] <yofel> "some bugged version of kde" is still a KDE problem
[22:31] <xelister> well then ubuntu needs to pack other version, or hand pick patches to backport them right?
[22:32] <yofel> sure, you're going to do it?
[22:32] <micahg> xelister: have you seen the SRU docs?
[22:32] <xelister> actually Im using ubuntu not kubuntu
[22:33] <xelister> just the app I use happens to use Qt lib and other parts of kde, so what
[22:33] <xelister> I never get this differentiating between "kubuntu" and "ubuntu"
[22:33] <xelister> its just ubuntu with different stuff installed by default
[22:34] <micahg> xelister: "Ubuntu" the CD is a default Gnome desktop, "Kubuntu" is a default KDE desktop
[22:34] <xelister> I use gnome and kde and other apps,  and I use kde or gnome or other DM's... why this kubuntu/ubuntu thing
[22:34] <xelister> ok so I use kmail, but I run gnome desktop, what now
[22:34] <micahg> xelister: nothing
[22:34] <micahg> xelister: I use Xubuntu, but run GNOME and KDE apps
[22:34] <xelister> Im ubuntu or kubuntu user?
[22:34] <micahg> xelister: ubuntu
[22:34] <xelister> yeah, imho this kubuntu/ubuntu segregation is idiotic
[22:35] <micahg> xelister: no, it's all mainly about your desktop enviroment
[22:35] <xelister> ok so if I logout, switch to KDE desktop then Im now kubuntu users?
[22:35] <micahg> xelister: yes :)
[22:35] <micahg> xelister: usually
[22:35] <xelister> desktop environment...?  well if I run program like kmail the entire bulls^H environment with nepomukus/akonadis/kontacts/PIMs loads anyway... are you sure Im still ubutnu user then?
[22:36] <xelister> why desktop manager matters
[22:36] <micahg> xelister: I would say don't worry about it :)
[22:36] <xelister> well but you said kubuntu bugs are fixed only in upstream basically
[22:36] <xelister> did you then ment to say that bugs in all KDE applications are like this?
[22:36] <micahg> xelister: yes, so any KDE apps, you have to get fixes upstream
[22:37] <xelister> because I use kmail while being in gnome DE
[22:37] <xelister> ok
[22:37] <micahg> xelister: SRU process is the same though
[22:37] <xelister> but why such decission, to concentrate on gnome apps, and dyscriminate kde apps?
[22:37] <xelister> I would same kde apps are overall better
[22:37] <xelister> * say
[22:37] <micahg> xelister: just bug process is different as KDE apps are taken care of by Kubuntu team and they choose their polocies
[22:37] <micahg> *policies
[22:37] <xelister> comparing kde apps and gnome apps,  kde apps look much more functionall, with feautures and everything, while gnome ones usually are stripped down and plane
[22:38] <BUGabundo> xelister: I've filed like 4 bugs (3 for kde, 1 for gnome) of bad packaging stuff, of deps
[22:38] <micahg> xelister: Canonical's main focus is GNOME
[22:38] <BUGabundo> when it expects a WM that's not there
[22:38] <xelister> well but why, KDE seems just better
[22:38] <BUGabundo> stuff like apps that want gnome-about
[22:38] <xelister> besides the bugs, that is
[22:38] <micahg> xelister: that's what they chose
[22:38]  * micahg never really used GNOME
[22:38] <BUGabundo> xelister: I also run GNOME with *some* KDE apps
[22:39] <BUGabundo> not the all KDE WM
[22:39] <xelister> actually I will probably change to KDE DE too
[22:39] <xelister> anyway that reminds me
[22:39] <xelister> default Gnome with the 3d effects
[22:39] <xelister> is the wors thing ever
[22:40] <xelister> worst navigation.  Prest alt+f2, open konsole.  Now you need like 10 keyboard clicks to type "top" in the just opened console... wtf is that
[22:40] <yofel> why that? most users like it glossy
[22:40] <xelister> why the damn just alt-f2 spawned konsole does not have focus?!?!??!?!
[22:40] <yofel> o.O
[22:41] <xelister> in 3d gimmicks mode, it is also at END of alt+tab list so you need like 10 clicks to get there... O_I
[22:41] <xelister> in normall mode (no effects, 2d) I press alt+tab once to get it
[22:41] <yofel> that's... odd
[22:42] <xelister> how it behaves for you in the 3d mode, when you do alt+f2 konsole ENTER?  btw, the "konsole" program, not gnome-terminall
[22:43] <yofel> I'm using KDE, and it is opened in the foreground there
[22:43] <yofel> don't have gnome installed on this pc
[22:44] <xelister> Im using gnome.. well, try it with gnome one day
[22:45] <BUGabundo> xelister: erk... konsole in gnom?
[22:45] <yofel> no thanks, I used gnome for a few releases and am fed up with it. I'll try gnome3 once it gets out
[22:45] <BUGabundo> what happened to gnome-terminal?
[22:47] <xelister> BUGabundo: yea
[22:47] <xelister> konsole is a program
[22:47] <yofel> he meant why don't you use gnome-terminal?
[22:48] <BUGabundo> ^^
[22:49] <xelister> because it sucks
[22:49]  * BUGabundo head slap
[22:49] <xelister> just because I prefere konsole :)
[22:50] <yofel> it's not *that* bad
[22:50] <xelister> the problem is overall.  all new started apps should be focuesed, when _I_ start them manually, form an icon or with alt+f2
[22:50] <yofel> I prefer yakuake now though, always having a terminal a 'F12' press away is nice :D
[22:50] <yofel> true
[22:50] <xelister> yakuake can be good too
[22:51] <xelister> can some1 report the apps-not-focused bug?
[22:51] <xelister> I understand we sometimes do not some focus stealing prevention.  but for example from alt+f2 or from desktop icon its a clear choice
[22:51] <yofel> sure, but I'm not sure who's wrong there, as you said 3d I would guess compiz
[22:52] <xelister> *need
[22:52] <xelister> btw its not perfect also in normal mode, its also not focused
[22:52] <yofel> hm
[22:52] <yofel> no gnome folks around?
[22:54] <JanC> xelister: there are some focus bugs in compiz AFAIK, but metacity should be okay?
[22:55] <xelister> Im not sure
[22:55] <xelister> yeah thats another problem
[22:55] <xelister> NO ONE UNDERSTANDS what app is doing what
[22:56] <JanC> compiz & metacity as in "window managers"  ;)
[22:56] <xelister> the ssh/pgp and other passphrases system is greate example!  Ask a random user "what program stores your passwords?"  they will not know
[22:56] <xelister> or ask "Who does the 3d effects"
[22:56] <xelister> I dont know. do you?
[22:56] <xelister> metacity?
[22:56] <xelister> compiz? beryl?
[22:56] <xelister> something else?
[22:56] <JanC> compiz has 3d effects, metacity not
[22:57] <xelister> this information should be written right there. Not some "Advanced effects", thanks but Im not retarded so I would like a technical information here please, like at least the unix program name
[22:58] <xelister> the same with passphrases. "Keychain". What the hell... what application is that? ssh-agent? seahose? something in gone? something added by ubuntu? How to google it?
[22:58] <xelister> do you see this problem?
[22:58] <yofel> well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage is a start to help with that, but I agree with you in general
[22:59] <xelister> the solution is simple
[22:59] <xelister> just append the application names in the GUIs
[22:59] <BUGabundo> what's lucid netbook remix WM?
[22:59] <xelister> "Enable advanced 3d affects ... (compiz)"   (prefferably compiz being an link to some wiki about it)
[22:59] <micahg> xelister: try this to help figure out which app something is: xprop | grep CLASS
[23:00] <xelister> "Enter passphrase ('pinentry', will be stored in 'ssh-agent' program)
[23:00] <xelister> micahg: ok that is a good hint :) And for the regular users, how about changing the strings as I written above?
[23:01] <JanC> xelister: and how do you know it's stored in ssh-agent?
[23:01] <micahg> xelister: most users don't need to know or don't care, if they need to know
[23:01] <xelister> JanC: I do not know, but the system does, so I need the system to tell me
[23:01] <xelister> micahg: no! the opposite
[23:01] <xelister> lets say this pin caching works other then expected
[23:01] <xelister> how then I google it??? how do I RTFM it?
[23:01] <JanC> it could be stored in other places too, or not stored, the system doesn't really know  ;)
[23:01] <micahg> xelister: most people just want stuff to work and don't care about the underlying engine
[23:02] <xelister> [problems with timeout in eeee uhhm... this app in ubuntu, you know]
[23:02] <arand> xelister: gnome/ubuntu has actively taken the steps towards removing the (often non-helpful [palimpsest anyone?]) names to keep things clean and avoid clutter. This is the gnome/ubuntu way, I doubt that will change. I do agree with you to some extent, but the again hold no hopes that it will change...
[23:02] <xelister> micahg: this is an approach praticed by say iEverything - where it is assumed user is a retard
[23:02] <xelister> I do like genrally such attitude from computers that should be tools to be used by me
[23:02] <micahg> xelister: that way I see it is to get out of the way and let stuff work
[23:04] <xelister> the approach is to treat user like reatrd, I do not like this because:
[23:04] <xelister> - then users are acting like retards and need more babysitting
[23:04] <xelister> - it learns users to NOT ever RTFM
[23:04] <xelister> - it makes it harder to report bugs
[23:04] <JanC> xelister: what if ssh passwords are not cached, or if I use my own home-made ssh password caching agent?
[23:04] <xelister> - and harder to resolve bugs on your own
[23:05] <micahg> xelister: Ubuntu has many different classes of users
[23:05] <xelister> even windows usually shows a simple messages, but also offers an  [Details >>>]  view.  How come windows has more pro&technicall possibilities then linux
[23:05] <JanC> xelister: you mean the 2x3cm window with 500 lines of text ?  ;)
[23:05] <yofel> xelister: the findrightpackage page is linked from the reporting guide, so you do get info on how to find the package, and it only takes maybe a minute more
[23:05] <xelister> micahg: ubuntu is ok just for the non-technical clueless;  while even windows is very good for ALL different classes, from clueless users, to the ones that click Details 3 times and get a stacktrace ;)
[23:06] <xelister> actually, for example kde bugcrash does that too, and this is very nice.  Lets do it more
[23:06] <yofel> xelister: KDE gives you many options, gnome focuses on simplicity instead
[23:06] <yofel> choose what you like more yourself
[23:06] <xelister> s/simplicity/retardness
[23:06] <JanC> you can see crash backtraces if you enable apport  ;)
[23:07] <BUGabundo> xelister: DON'T use cross pinentry
[23:07] <BUGabundo> that bug was never fixed
[23:07] <xelister> BUGabundo: hm?
[23:07] <BUGabundo> you must use the proper one for WM
[23:07] <yofel> JanC: not like in KDE, only after you reported the bug and the retracer did the work
[23:07] <BUGabundo> and instaling kde apps in gnome will change it to kde one
[23:07] <yofel> as long as we talk about non-python crashes
[23:07] <BUGabundo> I got some really nasty system wide locks cause of that
[23:07] <xelister> not sure what you mean, but pinetry works fine for me
[23:08] <xelister> surprisingly
[23:08] <BUGabundo> where the keyb would not input anything , cause pinenry was stuck bacground to an app
[23:08] <xelister> didn't hit that one
=== marjo_ is now known as marjo
[23:09] <JanC> yofel: you can if you have the right packages installed AFAIK (maybe you'll have to retrace manually though)
[23:10] <micahg> JanC: yofel, you can retrace locally and have the local retracer install the appropriate packages
[23:10] <JanC> anyway, pushing backtraces into normal user's faces is not something we want to do  ;)
[23:10] <yofel> depends, sometimes you do get a useful stacktrace right away if you have all -dbgsym packages installed
[23:13] <xelister> JanC: hide it under Advanced Details. Hard?
[23:47] <hggdh> it still does not make sense. The backoffice apport retraces does the work, and the majority of users does not need a backtrace
[23:47] <xelister> hggdh: delay the "work" untill user wants.
[23:48] <xelister> also I suggested for now  to just say the program name :) for starters
[23:48] <hggdh> still. Only quite advanced users would use it. I am against.
[23:50] <charlie-tca> +1 hggdh
[23:50] <hggdh> and there are other ways to find the programme name -- the one micahg gave you, or even alacarte, for example
[23:50] <charlie-tca> or even /usr/share/applications will show almost any program in the menus
[23:52] <xelister> -9 hggdh
[23:52] <xelister> why you seem to lost common sense
[23:52] <xelister> why not put the damn program name there?
[23:53] <hggdh> xelister: now. I would really appreciate if you could be more civil. If you want to troll, go elsewhere.
[23:53] <xelister> well you are basically saying that it is better to have totally uneducated users
[23:55] <hggdh> No, I am not. Not even near. I am stating that the common user -- the majority of our users -- does not need it. It is my opinion, and you happen to have a different one
[23:55] <xelister> the ones that do not unerstand difference between "IE" and "Firefox" bot things are "The internet".  It's exactly what we now have in ubuntu, we have "the effects" not like "beryl" or "compiz"
[23:55] <zus_> dinner time later guyses
[23:56] <xelister> do we want users that do not understand at all what they are doing? "Im running that effects stuff" instead "Im running compiz on my nvidia"?
[23:57] <hggdh> ? most users -- educated or not -- will understand "effects". Few will know what is beryl. And most really do not need to know what is beryl
[23:57] <micahg> xelister: that's one of the barriers of linux adoption for some (the thought of needing to know that)
[23:57] <xelister> ok so by this logic,
[23:57] <maco> plus, beryl's gone
[23:57] <xelister> users should only know they are running "The internet" not like "Im using firefox" or "Im on IE" ?
[23:57] <hggdh> maco: heh. Indeed.
[23:58] <micahg> xelister: bad example, those programs are launched by the user usually
[23:58] <xelister> whats the difference?
[23:58] <xelister> should users understand "I run IE / I run firefox" or just "I run internetz lol"
[23:58] <micahg> xelister: either depending on the user
[23:58] <hggdh> if they get their work done, I see no difference (although yours is a really bad example)
[23:59] <xelister> why you want users to be more like the later? They should buy payed support because they can't then do anything with own computers?
[23:59] <maco> um its "i have desktop effects enabled" and then you ask "in kde or in gnome?" if its kde then that will likely mean kwin's built in desktop effects. if gnome, then it means compiz. if theyre a kde user who went out of their way to install compiz. they'll know that and tell you
[23:59] <xelister> well in this solution
[23:59] <hggdh> non sequitur
[23:59] <micahg> xelister: it's not about what *we* want, it's about what the user wants to deal with
[23:59] <xelister> yeah, what do users want?
[23:59] <maco> my only objection to users not knowing the difference between firefox and IE is that youre saying theyd call it "the internet" instead of "web browser"
[23:59] <xelister> I would like to RTFM as a good user