| pleia2 | doctormo: in case you hadn't been kept in the loop, when I spoke with the Manual folks on Monday they're thinking of going with docbook and exporting to mallard as needed | 18:35 |
|---|---|---|
| pleia2 | apparently mallard is great for system docs, but less so for something like a book | 18:35 |
| pleia2 | so I'm thinking I'm just going to learn docbook for now and go from there | 18:44 |
| pleia2 | even if I don't use it for this project, it's a transferrable skill, unlike mallard | 18:44 |
| doctormo | pleia2: Makes perfect sense to me | 18:47 |
| doctormo | Thanks for keeping me up to date | 18:47 |
| pleia2 | sure thing :) | 18:47 |
| doctormo | Do we have a reschedualled meeting? | 18:47 |
| pleia2 | not yet | 18:47 |
| pleia2 | I really felt bad about failing to show up, the -manual folks continually feel like other teams aren't pulling their weight and I'm sure that added to it | 18:48 |
| doctormo | I didn't show up either, caught me off guard to be honest | 19:07 |
| doctormo | The manual team has every reason to believe the docs and learning teams are fakes IMO. | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:11 |
| dinda | pleia2: we never did get any response from bodhi on the http://learn.ufbt.net/ site being offline :( | 19:45 |
| pleia2 | dinda: no, I've followed up with a few people and no one can get ahold of him so far | 19:46 |
| dinda | pleia2: I lost my edubuntu course i'd been buidling there :( | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | dinda: yeah, I saw :( I have some alternate hosting space if we need it for moodle, but I'll keep trying bodhi | 19:47 |
| dinda | pleia2: I'm going to use the flossmanuals site instead | 19:48 |
| * pleia2 nods | 19:48 | |
| * pleia2 emails again | 19:49 | |
| pleia2 | dinda: he replied!! http://learn.ufbt.net/ | 20:46 |
| pleia2 | back up :) | 20:47 |
| doctormo | Hello dinda | 21:23 |
| doctormo | Did you see the collaboration that is being attempted between docs/learning and manual teams? | 21:24 |
| dinda | bodhi_zazen: ping | 23:19 |
| dinda | doctormo: yes but have reservations | 23:20 |
| doctormo | dinda: You say that about everything :-D I don't blame you. | 23:21 |
| dinda | doctormo: once everything got back to 'everyone learn docbook. . .' | 23:22 |
| pleia2 | the whole thing makes my head hurt too | 23:22 |
| dinda | doctormo: the manual project did amazing work b/c the process was simple for new contributors | 23:22 |
| dinda | then the whole discusion turned to tools instead of process | 23:22 |
| dinda | pleia2: yeah, I tried to keep up and wanted to jump in a few times but figured things would work themselves out | 23:23 |
| doctormo | dinda: Yes and it managed to do it with LaTeX | 23:23 |
| doctormo | I don't think it was just that they talked about process | 23:24 |
| doctormo | I think it was also they had skilled people who knew tools well enough to not have to talk about them | 23:24 |
| doctormo | You can talk about process much more when you know your trade tools | 23:24 |
| doctormo | Having a bunch of expert LaTeX masters on staff certainly helps. | 23:24 |
| dinda | doctormo: dunno, there's a difference. . .all my experts in training know their tools but none of them are foss | 23:25 |
| dinda | doctormo: just like the hundreds of potential tech writers and others coming from proprietary tools who offer to help the doc team | 23:25 |
| doctormo | dinda: Nothing I was talking about specified the publishing or collaboration method. | 23:25 |
| dinda | doctormo: they know their tools but now are being told to learn all new tools | 23:25 |
| doctormo | That's something of a red herring | 23:25 |
| doctormo | Problem is, propritary tools are still unscientific, no way around that. | 23:26 |
| dinda | unscientific? | 23:26 |
| dinda | so there is a really great pool of people with great writing skills already out there but none of them know the foss tools | 23:27 |
| doctormo | dinda: Do we even have foos tools? | 23:27 |
| dinda | doctormo: dockbook, etc | 23:27 |
| dinda | mallard | 23:27 |
| doctormo | dinda: I thought our level was still at bows and arrows. | 23:27 |
| dinda | doctormo: exactly, none of those tools are anywhere near the level of say InDesign, traditional word processors, the tools these folks already are using | 23:28 |
| dinda | doctormo: like Adobe Captivate vs. gtkrecordmydesktop - no comparison | 23:29 |
| doctormo | dinda: We can't help that except to make better tools. | 23:29 |
| dinda | doctormo: yip, that is very much needed but. . . | 23:29 |
| dinda | since these are not 'tools for developers' there is little effort to have them improved | 23:29 |
| dinda | it's the specialised tools for most any profession where foss is lacking | 23:30 |
| doctormo | or money, but I can tell you now I get nothing for developing ground control, even though it's a leading light in getting more _developers_ involved | 23:30 |
| doctormo | Even Debian has trouble finding resources for it's internal tools | 23:30 |
| doctormo | and that's all development tools | 23:30 |
| dinda | there are some great ones out there but nothing equivalent to many existing proprietary tools | 23:31 |
| doctormo | dinda: What would you have us do? | 23:31 |
| dinda | doctormo: yip, until it becomes important enough for someone to pay for, no money will be thrown at it/you | 23:31 |
| dinda | doctormo: I was lobbying for a doc team sprint just like they do tons of developer sprints | 23:32 |
| dinda | but documentation is still not sexy enough to warrant the effort | 23:32 |
| doctormo | Something the manual team is working towards fixing I think :-D | 23:33 |
| dinda | until some 'company' realises they are losing users b/c of bad documentation, there's little hope of getting money for better tools | 23:33 |
| doctormo | Although I don't know what the perception was like inside Canonical | 23:33 |
| dinda | the manual project was pretty much irrelevant to Canonical. . . | 23:33 |
| dinda | although I personally see it as a great thing | 23:33 |
| dinda | too bad we can't collaborate b/c they did great work | 23:34 |
| dinda | and this is the fault of canonical, not the manual or other team | 23:34 |
| doctormo | Canonical's attatude towards the community documentation and learning projects is pretty aweful. | 23:34 |
| doctormo | I wonder how we can make it better | 23:34 |
| dinda | until I can convince certain people that we lose nothing by working with CC-BY-SA sections | 23:34 |
| dinda | it won't change | 23:35 |
| dinda | doctormo: this is why I'm doing the edubuntu course as a volunteer project | 23:35 |
| doctormo | dinda: Have you heard of the copyleft commons protection theory? | 23:35 |
| dinda | doctormo: not sure | 23:36 |
| doctormo | It says that you don't require NC restrictions because SA is effectivly the same thing, the same amount of fear you feel about releasing a work under copyleft is the same amount of fear that a competitor will feel about being forced to publish all of their work under the same license because they used your work in some way. | 23:37 |
| doctormo | Your competitors need to diferentiate, but they can't if they need to release the work | 23:37 |
| doctormo | But the original company brand has a massive diferentiator just in the name and authority of the companies position. | 23:37 |
| doctormo | company's* | 23:38 |
| dinda | doctormo: to me you only need to protect stuff that is not available anywhere else, something you claim to have a monoply on | 23:39 |
| dinda | but with our materials that is not the case | 23:39 |
| dinda | 95% of the info is already out there on a wiki someplace | 23:39 |
| dinda | emmajane had a blog post about artefacts in training | 23:40 |
| dinda | she was trying to make the analogy that in drupal many of the free modules are there as artefacts of paid work | 23:40 |
| doctormo | In my case I advise artists thus: If you aim to collaborate in any fashion with any peers of any size then NC and ND clauses are a bad idea, on the other hand if your looking to just freely distribute the fixed original work then use ND and NC. | 23:40 |
| dinda | but in training that is not the case | 23:41 |
| doctormo | Yes you have a service to offer, work to be paid for directly, that's the business right. | 23:41 |
| dinda | so the question is where is the value? in the sheet music? or in the artist who can interpret that music and give a unique interpretation to notes on the page? | 23:42 |
| dinda | lots of classical music is way out of copyright yet we pay for recordings and live concerts | 23:43 |
| dinda | to me that's what great training is, a great experience that only certain few can give | 23:43 |
| doctormo | Yes, why is this so hard to convince the people in charge of? It is logical. | 23:44 |
| dinda | doctormo: you tell me and we'll both be rich! :) | 23:44 |
| dinda | or just perhaps a little bit happier as then we can collaborate freely ;) | 23:45 |
| doctormo | Carrot and stick and everybody had a leaver. | 23:45 |
| dinda | but when your resources disappear, kind of hard to collaborate. . .which is why i'm poking bodhi_zazen | 23:46 |
| bodhi_zazen | 'lo dinda , sorry, what do you need ? | 23:46 |
| doctormo | That's a fairly bad instance, considering the amount of down time. | 23:46 |
| doctormo | But it's not always like that | 23:46 |
| dinda | bodhi_zazen: the ufbt site has been down! | 23:47 |
| bodhi_zazen | Aye, sorry about that | 23:47 |
| bodhi_zazen | It is fixed now | 23:47 |
| dinda | bodhi_zazen: thank you!!! | 23:47 |
| bodhi_zazen | NP, pleia2 sent me an email earlier | 23:48 |
| ZachK_ | sup ya'll | 23:48 |
| doctormo | Hey ZachK_ | 23:50 |
| ZachK_ | heya doctormo | 23:51 |
| dinda | ok, great can get back to finishing this course now | 23:55 |
| dinda | thanks bodhi_zazen! | 23:55 |
| bodhi_zazen | NP | 23:56 |
| ZachK_ | bodhi_zazen rocks | 23:57 |
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