[18:35] <pleia2> doctormo: in case you hadn't been kept in the loop, when I spoke with the Manual folks on Monday they're thinking of going with docbook and exporting to mallard as needed
[18:35] <pleia2> apparently mallard is great for system docs, but less so for something like a book
[18:44] <pleia2> so I'm thinking I'm just going to learn docbook for now and go from there
[18:44] <pleia2> even if I don't use it for this project, it's a transferrable skill, unlike mallard
[18:47] <doctormo> pleia2: Makes perfect sense to me
[18:47] <doctormo> Thanks for keeping me up to date
[18:47] <pleia2> sure thing :)
[18:47] <doctormo> Do we have a reschedualled meeting?
[18:47] <pleia2> not yet
[18:48] <pleia2> I really felt bad about failing to show up, the -manual folks continually feel like other teams aren't pulling their weight and I'm sure that added to it
[19:07] <doctormo> I didn't show up either, caught me off guard to be honest
[19:07] <doctormo> The manual team has every reason to believe the docs and learning teams are fakes IMO.
[19:11] <pleia2> yeah
[19:45] <dinda> pleia2: we never did get any response from bodhi on the http://learn.ufbt.net/  site being offline  :(
[19:46] <pleia2> dinda: no, I've followed up with a few people and no one can get ahold of him so far
[19:46] <dinda> pleia2: I lost my edubuntu course i'd been buidling there :(
[19:47] <pleia2> dinda: yeah, I saw :( I have some alternate hosting space if we need it for moodle, but I'll keep trying bodhi
[19:48] <dinda> pleia2: I'm going to use the flossmanuals site instead
[19:48]  * pleia2 nods
[19:49]  * pleia2 emails again
[20:46] <pleia2> dinda: he replied!! http://learn.ufbt.net/
[20:47] <pleia2> back up :)
[21:23] <doctormo> Hello dinda
[21:24] <doctormo> Did you see the collaboration that is being attempted between docs/learning and manual teams?
[23:19] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: ping
[23:20] <dinda> doctormo: yes but have reservations
[23:21] <doctormo> dinda: You say that about everything :-D I don't blame you.
[23:22] <dinda> doctormo: once everything got back to 'everyone learn docbook. . .'
[23:22] <pleia2> the whole thing makes my head hurt too
[23:22] <dinda> doctormo: the manual project did amazing work b/c the process was simple for new contributors
[23:22] <dinda> then the whole discusion turned to tools instead of process
[23:23] <dinda> pleia2: yeah, I tried to keep up and wanted to jump in a few times but figured things would work themselves out
[23:23] <doctormo> dinda: Yes and it managed to do it with LaTeX
[23:24] <doctormo> I don't think it was just that they talked about process
[23:24] <doctormo> I think it was also they had skilled people who knew tools well enough to not have to talk about them
[23:24] <doctormo> You can talk about process much more when you know your trade tools
[23:24] <doctormo> Having a bunch of expert LaTeX masters on staff certainly helps.
[23:25] <dinda> doctormo: dunno, there's a difference. . .all my experts in training know their tools but none of them are foss
[23:25] <dinda> doctormo: just like the hundreds of potential tech writers and others coming from proprietary tools who offer to help the doc team
[23:25] <doctormo> dinda: Nothing I was talking about specified the publishing or collaboration method.
[23:25] <dinda> doctormo: they know their tools but now are being told to learn all new tools
[23:25] <doctormo> That's something of a red herring
[23:26] <doctormo> Problem is, propritary tools are still unscientific, no way around that.
[23:26] <dinda> unscientific?
[23:27] <dinda> so there is a really great pool of people with great writing skills already out there but none of them know the foss tools
[23:27] <doctormo> dinda: Do we even have foos tools?
[23:27] <dinda> doctormo: dockbook, etc
[23:27] <dinda> mallard
[23:27] <doctormo> dinda: I thought our level was still at bows and arrows.
[23:28] <dinda> doctormo: exactly, none of those tools are anywhere near the level of say InDesign, traditional word processors, the tools these folks already are using
[23:29] <dinda> doctormo: like Adobe Captivate vs. gtkrecordmydesktop - no comparison
[23:29] <doctormo> dinda: We can't help that except to make better tools.
[23:29] <dinda> doctormo: yip, that is very much needed but. . .
[23:29] <dinda> since these are not 'tools for developers' there is little effort to have them improved
[23:30] <dinda> it's the specialised tools for most any profession where foss is lacking
[23:30] <doctormo> or money, but I can tell you now I get nothing for developing ground control, even though it's a leading light in getting more _developers_ involved
[23:30] <doctormo> Even Debian has trouble finding resources for it's internal tools
[23:30] <doctormo> and that's all development tools
[23:31] <dinda> there are some great ones out there but nothing equivalent to many existing proprietary tools
[23:31] <doctormo> dinda: What would you have us do?
[23:31] <dinda> doctormo: yip, until it becomes important enough for someone to pay for, no money will be thrown at it/you
[23:32] <dinda> doctormo: I was lobbying for a doc team sprint just like they do tons of developer sprints
[23:32] <dinda> but documentation is still not sexy enough to warrant the effort
[23:33] <doctormo> Something the manual team is working towards fixing I think :-D
[23:33] <dinda> until some 'company' realises they are losing users b/c of bad documentation, there's little hope of getting money for better tools
[23:33] <doctormo> Although I don't know what the perception was like inside Canonical
[23:33] <dinda> the manual project was pretty much irrelevant to Canonical. . .
[23:33] <dinda> although I personally see it as a great thing
[23:34] <dinda> too bad we can't collaborate b/c they did great work
[23:34] <dinda> and this is the fault of canonical, not the manual or other team
[23:34] <doctormo> Canonical's attatude towards the community documentation and learning projects is pretty aweful.
[23:34] <doctormo> I wonder how we can make it better
[23:34] <dinda> until I can convince certain people that we lose nothing by working with CC-BY-SA sections
[23:35] <dinda> it won't change
[23:35] <dinda> doctormo: this is why I'm doing the edubuntu course as a volunteer project
[23:35] <doctormo> dinda: Have you heard of the copyleft commons protection theory?
[23:36] <dinda> doctormo: not sure
[23:37] <doctormo> It says that you don't require NC restrictions because SA is effectivly the same thing, the same amount of fear you feel about releasing a work under copyleft is the same amount of fear that a competitor will feel about being forced to publish all of their work under the same license because they used your work in some way.
[23:37] <doctormo> Your competitors need to diferentiate, but they can't if they need to release the work
[23:37] <doctormo> But the original company brand has a massive diferentiator just in the name and authority of the companies position.
[23:38] <doctormo> company's*
[23:39] <dinda> doctormo: to me you only need to protect stuff that is not available anywhere else, something you claim to have a monoply on
[23:39] <dinda> but with our materials that is not the case
[23:39] <dinda> 95% of the info is already out there on a wiki someplace
[23:40] <dinda> emmajane had a blog post about artefacts in training
[23:40] <dinda> she was trying to make the analogy that in drupal many of the free modules are there as artefacts of paid work
[23:40] <doctormo> In my case I advise artists thus: If you aim to collaborate in any fashion with any peers of any size then NC and ND clauses are a bad idea, on the other hand if your looking to just freely distribute the fixed original work then use ND and NC.
[23:41] <dinda> but in training that is not the case
[23:41] <doctormo> Yes you have a service to offer, work to be paid for directly, that's the business right.
[23:42] <dinda> so the question is where is the value?  in the sheet music?  or in the artist who can interpret that music and give a unique interpretation to notes on the page?
[23:43] <dinda> lots of classical music is way out of copyright yet we pay for recordings and live concerts
[23:43] <dinda> to me that's what great training is, a great experience that only certain few can give
[23:44] <doctormo> Yes, why is this so hard to convince the people in charge of? It is logical.
[23:44] <dinda> doctormo: you tell me and we'll both be rich! :)
[23:45] <dinda> or just perhaps a little bit happier as then we can collaborate freely ;)
[23:45] <doctormo> Carrot and stick and everybody had a leaver.
[23:46] <dinda> but when your resources disappear, kind of hard to collaborate. . .which is why i'm poking bodhi_zazen
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> 'lo dinda , sorry, what do you need ?
[23:46] <doctormo> That's a fairly bad instance, considering the amount of down time.
[23:46] <doctormo> But it's not always like that
[23:47] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: the ufbt site has been down!
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> Aye, sorry about that
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> It is fixed now
[23:47] <dinda> bodhi_zazen: thank you!!!
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> NP, pleia2 sent me an email earlier
[23:48] <ZachK_> sup ya'll
[23:50] <doctormo> Hey ZachK_
[23:51] <ZachK_> heya doctormo
[23:55] <dinda> ok, great can get back to finishing this course now
[23:55] <dinda> thanks bodhi_zazen!
[23:56] <bodhi_zazen> NP
[23:57] <ZachK_> bodhi_zazen rocks