[18:35] doctormo: in case you hadn't been kept in the loop, when I spoke with the Manual folks on Monday they're thinking of going with docbook and exporting to mallard as needed [18:35] apparently mallard is great for system docs, but less so for something like a book [18:44] so I'm thinking I'm just going to learn docbook for now and go from there [18:44] even if I don't use it for this project, it's a transferrable skill, unlike mallard [18:47] pleia2: Makes perfect sense to me [18:47] Thanks for keeping me up to date [18:47] sure thing :) [18:47] Do we have a reschedualled meeting? [18:47] not yet [18:48] I really felt bad about failing to show up, the -manual folks continually feel like other teams aren't pulling their weight and I'm sure that added to it [19:07] I didn't show up either, caught me off guard to be honest [19:07] The manual team has every reason to believe the docs and learning teams are fakes IMO. [19:11] yeah [19:45] pleia2: we never did get any response from bodhi on the http://learn.ufbt.net/ site being offline :( [19:46] dinda: no, I've followed up with a few people and no one can get ahold of him so far [19:46] pleia2: I lost my edubuntu course i'd been buidling there :( [19:47] dinda: yeah, I saw :( I have some alternate hosting space if we need it for moodle, but I'll keep trying bodhi [19:48] pleia2: I'm going to use the flossmanuals site instead [19:48] * pleia2 nods [19:49] * pleia2 emails again [20:46] dinda: he replied!! http://learn.ufbt.net/ [20:47] back up :) [21:23] Hello dinda [21:24] Did you see the collaboration that is being attempted between docs/learning and manual teams? [23:19] bodhi_zazen: ping [23:20] doctormo: yes but have reservations [23:21] dinda: You say that about everything :-D I don't blame you. [23:22] doctormo: once everything got back to 'everyone learn docbook. . .' [23:22] the whole thing makes my head hurt too [23:22] doctormo: the manual project did amazing work b/c the process was simple for new contributors [23:22] then the whole discusion turned to tools instead of process [23:23] pleia2: yeah, I tried to keep up and wanted to jump in a few times but figured things would work themselves out [23:23] dinda: Yes and it managed to do it with LaTeX [23:24] I don't think it was just that they talked about process [23:24] I think it was also they had skilled people who knew tools well enough to not have to talk about them [23:24] You can talk about process much more when you know your trade tools [23:24] Having a bunch of expert LaTeX masters on staff certainly helps. [23:25] doctormo: dunno, there's a difference. . .all my experts in training know their tools but none of them are foss [23:25] doctormo: just like the hundreds of potential tech writers and others coming from proprietary tools who offer to help the doc team [23:25] dinda: Nothing I was talking about specified the publishing or collaboration method. [23:25] doctormo: they know their tools but now are being told to learn all new tools [23:25] That's something of a red herring [23:26] Problem is, propritary tools are still unscientific, no way around that. [23:26] unscientific? [23:27] so there is a really great pool of people with great writing skills already out there but none of them know the foss tools [23:27] dinda: Do we even have foos tools? [23:27] doctormo: dockbook, etc [23:27] mallard [23:27] dinda: I thought our level was still at bows and arrows. [23:28] doctormo: exactly, none of those tools are anywhere near the level of say InDesign, traditional word processors, the tools these folks already are using [23:29] doctormo: like Adobe Captivate vs. gtkrecordmydesktop - no comparison [23:29] dinda: We can't help that except to make better tools. [23:29] doctormo: yip, that is very much needed but. . . [23:29] since these are not 'tools for developers' there is little effort to have them improved [23:30] it's the specialised tools for most any profession where foss is lacking [23:30] or money, but I can tell you now I get nothing for developing ground control, even though it's a leading light in getting more _developers_ involved [23:30] Even Debian has trouble finding resources for it's internal tools [23:30] and that's all development tools [23:31] there are some great ones out there but nothing equivalent to many existing proprietary tools [23:31] dinda: What would you have us do? [23:31] doctormo: yip, until it becomes important enough for someone to pay for, no money will be thrown at it/you [23:32] doctormo: I was lobbying for a doc team sprint just like they do tons of developer sprints [23:32] but documentation is still not sexy enough to warrant the effort [23:33] Something the manual team is working towards fixing I think :-D [23:33] until some 'company' realises they are losing users b/c of bad documentation, there's little hope of getting money for better tools [23:33] Although I don't know what the perception was like inside Canonical [23:33] the manual project was pretty much irrelevant to Canonical. . . [23:33] although I personally see it as a great thing [23:34] too bad we can't collaborate b/c they did great work [23:34] and this is the fault of canonical, not the manual or other team [23:34] Canonical's attatude towards the community documentation and learning projects is pretty aweful. [23:34] I wonder how we can make it better [23:34] until I can convince certain people that we lose nothing by working with CC-BY-SA sections [23:35] it won't change [23:35] doctormo: this is why I'm doing the edubuntu course as a volunteer project [23:35] dinda: Have you heard of the copyleft commons protection theory? [23:36] doctormo: not sure [23:37] It says that you don't require NC restrictions because SA is effectivly the same thing, the same amount of fear you feel about releasing a work under copyleft is the same amount of fear that a competitor will feel about being forced to publish all of their work under the same license because they used your work in some way. [23:37] Your competitors need to diferentiate, but they can't if they need to release the work [23:37] But the original company brand has a massive diferentiator just in the name and authority of the companies position. [23:38] company's* [23:39] doctormo: to me you only need to protect stuff that is not available anywhere else, something you claim to have a monoply on [23:39] but with our materials that is not the case [23:39] 95% of the info is already out there on a wiki someplace [23:40] emmajane had a blog post about artefacts in training [23:40] she was trying to make the analogy that in drupal many of the free modules are there as artefacts of paid work [23:40] In my case I advise artists thus: If you aim to collaborate in any fashion with any peers of any size then NC and ND clauses are a bad idea, on the other hand if your looking to just freely distribute the fixed original work then use ND and NC. [23:41] but in training that is not the case [23:41] Yes you have a service to offer, work to be paid for directly, that's the business right. [23:42] so the question is where is the value? in the sheet music? or in the artist who can interpret that music and give a unique interpretation to notes on the page? [23:43] lots of classical music is way out of copyright yet we pay for recordings and live concerts [23:43] to me that's what great training is, a great experience that only certain few can give [23:44] Yes, why is this so hard to convince the people in charge of? It is logical. [23:44] doctormo: you tell me and we'll both be rich! :) [23:45] or just perhaps a little bit happier as then we can collaborate freely ;) [23:45] Carrot and stick and everybody had a leaver. [23:46] but when your resources disappear, kind of hard to collaborate. . .which is why i'm poking bodhi_zazen [23:46] 'lo dinda , sorry, what do you need ? [23:46] That's a fairly bad instance, considering the amount of down time. [23:46] But it's not always like that [23:47] bodhi_zazen: the ufbt site has been down! [23:47] Aye, sorry about that [23:47] It is fixed now [23:47] bodhi_zazen: thank you!!! [23:48] NP, pleia2 sent me an email earlier [23:48] sup ya'll [23:50] Hey ZachK_ [23:51] heya doctormo [23:55] ok, great can get back to finishing this course now [23:55] thanks bodhi_zazen! [23:56] NP [23:57] bodhi_zazen rocks