[00:00] and ubuntu is hidding from me information about what I should google [00:00] ? [00:00] as far as i am concerned FF & IE are the same class of software. since compiz is rather lacking a competitor on the gnome desktop, referring to it by its class ("desktop effects" "3d desktop") is fine [00:00] xelister: k, then you use xprop, man, help menus, and IRC channels, what's the problem [00:00] your example of using xprop | grep.. make no sense, it is tottally black magic to non technical user [00:00] xelister: you cant have it both ways [00:00] sure I can [00:00] maco: +1 [00:00] non-technical users dont RTFM [00:01] maco: -9, just look [00:01] if you want to RTFM you are by definition a technical user [00:01] * micahg is going back to work... [00:01] (*) Use Desktop Effects (using compiz program, on your nvidia GFX card) [00:01] oh yes non tech users understand "GFX" uh huh [00:01] the desktop effects menu shouldn't have anything to do with the graphics card or driver [00:01] yofel: agreed [00:02] then just (using compiz) [00:02] sorry to interrupt your backpetting with a good idea ;) [00:03] so you want totally clueless users to stay that way, by not pointing them in the right direction. Why? [00:03] but why do you need to tell WHICH application of the class "desktop effects" will be used when it is the ONLY option for applications of that class? [00:03] [00:03] * BUGabundo seats back and reads [00:03] xelister: just accept the truth. users who want to know how computer work are *rare* [00:03] BUGabundo: Don't. [00:04] maco: because this is one damn word, that can't help to point user to get a bit more educated [00:04] BUGabundo: If you were refering to the backlog that is... [00:04] arand: I'm to tekie [00:04] !language | xelister [00:04] xelister: Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly. [00:04] the computer should do what needs to be done, stay out of the way, and not ask stupid questions or volunteer unnecessary info such that the user gets stuck reading things they neither care about nor understand [00:04] I can never express me without using technical jargon [00:05] heh, me too, but only because I'm too used to it [00:05] maco: but that does not happen at all, ubuntu crashes, hangs, and fails all the time [00:05] and now users lack help in debuggin or reporting problems, or otherwise just googlingit [00:05] xelister: the solution isnt to force more info they dont care about at them! the solution is to FIX THE BUGS [00:05] xelister: adding usability bugs does not fix crashing bugs! [00:05] maco: well it isn't hapening, can't use kmail for weeks [00:05] even on 4.4.4 [00:06] * maco looks at kmail [00:06] are you using imap? [00:06] wfm :\ [00:06] if so, switch to offlineimap. the regular imap is and has been boned for ages [00:06] er sorry dimap [00:06] bahhh darned evolution users got me saying offlineimap [00:06] local, imap, dimap, pop, all with ssl and not [00:06] sure I use cached imap [00:06] xelister: googling for 'ubuntu desktop effects' tells you that it's compiz in the first result [00:06] * micahg gave up on kmail after imap stopped working well... [00:07] micahg: wfm [00:07] btw, now ubuntu doesn't have a good bug free email client [00:07] micahg: when was that? i switched to kmail a year and a half ago and have never known the plain imap to work without crashing on deletion of multiple messages [00:07] it's imho a disaster, and why are people tkaing time to work on gimmicks that 3d stuff is beyond me [00:07] BUGabundo: k, well, when I had my bug, I needed something else, so I switched to thunderbird and never looked back [00:07] xelister: thunderbird? [00:07] xelister: uh kmail isnt in ubuntu. its in kubuntu [00:07] mutt? ehe [00:07] evolution works fine in ubuntu IME [00:07] maco: it was something with filters or deletions (7.10) era [00:07] maco: no.. it's a piece of software [00:07] yofel: thunderbrid lacks half of feautrues from kmail [00:08] all the bugs that annoyed me on it back in 8.04 were fixed 9.04 [00:08] I really don't care in what DE it belongs too [00:08] it SHOULD just work [00:08] BUGabundo: what? im just saying its not included on the ubuntu cd [00:08] BUGabundo: ubuntu's default mail client *does* work just fine [00:08] its an apt-get distance [00:08] for example users have NO IDEA how ssh and other PINs caching works [00:08] maco: sure, but it's in main [00:08] so should kmail after install [00:08] so it really *should* work [00:08] as with any app [00:08] (annoying that you cant set the trash location per-account like in kmail but meh) [00:09] but instead of resolving this by explaining a bit, you prefer users to remaing ignorant. What in the hell are you doing?? =) [00:09] xelister: i think anyone advanced enough to know how to use SSH can find that stuff for themselves. [00:09] maco: no [00:09] maco: I switched away from KDE when I saw 4 to Xfce, it does what I needed so I've stayed with it, but I use Akregator because I think it's a great RSS feed app [00:09] micahg: i use google reader because i like sharing :P [00:10] maco: I'm trying to hide from google :P [00:10] what would be *awesome* is if akregator could sync with greader [00:10] maco: who caches - openpgp pass; ssh pass for ssh connection; when Im in gnome. And how to change length of caching. What is "default keyring" how to reset its password? [00:10] xelister: seahorse for all of those [00:10] in kde, ssh-agent and gpg-agent do the first two [00:11] maco: kde 211999 [00:11] reseting keyring password applications -> accessories -> encryption and whatnot (im not on gnome i forget what its called) -> right click the keyring -> reset password [00:11] KDE bug 211999 in general "Syncing with Google Reader" [Wishlist,New] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211999 [00:11] micahg: weeeeeeeeeee [00:12] xelister: its not "we prefer users to remain ignorant" its "users prefer to remain ignorant, so we dont try to force information down their throats" [00:12] * micahg likes KDE in principle and might return one day :) [00:12] * hggdh sides with maco [00:12] xelister: people who *dont* want to remain ignorant can use gentoo or become developers [00:13] (clearly most of us in the current convo have gone with the "become developers" route) [00:13] * micahg thinks Ubuntu has more educational material than any other distro [00:13] (yes i am counting triage as a developer activity :) ~ubuntu-dev is a member of bugcontrol after all) [00:14] so users can be clueless, or developers [00:14] micahg: yeah our wiki rocks :) [00:14] no [00:14] right. nothing in betwen [00:14] xelister: gentoo? [00:14] users can be educated [00:14] maco: I like to learn. but I don't plan to run gentoo or ever code :( [00:14] xelister: help.ubuntu.com, wiki.ubuntu.com, irc.ubuntu.com, ubuntuforums.org, all the Locos, there's no shortage of info [00:14] how is ubuntu helping users to get educated when they want to get more information? [00:15] BUGabundo: like i said, im counting bug work in the "development" umbrella [00:15] xelister: see micahg's response above [00:15] * micahg loves answering Qs before they're asked :D [00:15] and how is /ubuntu/ system inviting users to do any of above [00:15] aahha [00:15] xelister: default bookmarks in firefox [00:15] xelister: pointers in system -> help [00:15] so, the 2 least used things ever [00:15] anything else? [00:15] ah [00:16] just because we dont have HORRIBLE user interfaces with too darned much text doesnt mean the info doesnt exist anywhere [00:16] and people who WANT to find that info can look there [00:16] some programs, give links to more info right there WHEN users wants the info. like in the confusing dialog box [00:16] people who dont (that is, the VAST majority of people) can remain blissfully ignorant [00:16] and still use it [00:16] is that a good or bad direction to take? [00:16] the goal is to not have a confusing dialog box to begin with [00:17] how is giving a link like [more info] a horrible interface with too DARNED MUCH text? Are you using ubuntu on a 4" cellphone :> ? [00:17] xelister: it is the user's option: if they want to learn they have access to all of it. If they do *not*, they don; t need to [00:17] and if you make a "more info" link, that just makes it seem EVEN MORE complicated because OMG they couldnt fit all the info here and oh god oh god i have to go *read* more stuff and eeek! why are they wanting me to have to know so much oh goodness im not enough of a geek for this OS! [00:17] maco: then that goal of not heaving confusing UI is failed [00:18] xelister: adding a "more info" link doesnt fix a confusing UI. thats my point [00:18] * hggdh starts considering that enough is enough. Too much OT [00:18] fix the UI, dont just put a stupid "more info" bandaid on it [00:18] http://img695.imageshack.us/i/akonadierr.png/ :>>> [00:19] ^--- btw that is what I was getting when using kmail, konversation etc. and some other users [00:19] ugh yeah i hate that window [00:19] xelister: your point being? [00:19] that already UI can suck horribly [00:19] yes that happens to everyone the first time kontact starts on each login [00:19] and that above dialogs are a problem! [00:19] not a small [More details] button [00:19] you need to start akonadi once beforehead, or close kontact and open it up again [00:20] but adding a "more info" button *will not* fix that UI [00:20] xelister: propose changes. Discuss it with the developers. But complaining here will not solve anything [00:20] maco: for me and other users it was happening ALWAYS. and after few hours we found and resolved the bug with akonadi developer :) [00:20] oh this is a different akonadi bug? [00:20] blah theres a bunch in 4.4 :( [00:20] maco: More info button would hide the entire above dialog, and relaced it with "Error: Kmail can not use Akonadi. [Details...]" [00:20] is this ubuntu-bugs still? [00:21] or did it became arayana? [00:21] BUGabundo: apparently it's #kde-bugs now [00:21] BUGabundo: someone here seems to think kde's bugs are for us to fix [00:21] maco: who is that person??? [00:21] ahh [00:21] xelister: you [00:21] OK, this is it. Let's please stop with this thread. [00:21] maco: because for example I resolved that kmail bug in Ubuntu, in upstream akonadi, by talking to akonadi devels [00:21] well. I'm going offline [00:21] akonadi devs != ubuntu devs [00:22] need to cach up in feeds before bed [00:22] if you want changes to KDE's UI, talk to KDE devs [00:22] kubuntu has policy of NOT diverging from upstream [00:22] maco: please control yourself too [00:22] take this to #OT [00:23] BUGabundo: i dont understand why xelister thinks this has anything at all to do with ubuntu [00:23] Thank you [00:23] right now, _we_ don't care [00:23] #ubuntu-offtopic isnt the place. #kde-devel may be [00:23] * BUGabundo inserts a "polite" in there [00:23] wherever [00:24] that dialog with settings of desktop effects, is it part of gnome or of ubuntu? [00:24] xelister: please stop [00:24] you've been ask several times [00:27] nite [00:28] noites, BUGabundo [00:31] is there a meeting today? [00:34] drew212: for whom? [00:34] i thought there was a bugsquad meeting today, but i miread tuesday as thursday [00:34] drew212: no, it is next tuesday [00:35] yaeh =X [00:35] :-) [00:35] i could have swore today was a bug day or something... =X [00:35] * hggdh has serious problems with calendars [00:35] drew212: bugday, yes [00:35] so it is a bugday =) [00:35] drew212: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100603 [00:37] thanks micahg [00:38] im still so far behind in how to triage and all the technical stuff =X [01:31] hey any updates with the mentor programme? i am requesting one and i am utc-4 [01:54] Is there a reason why everyone asks for dmesg rather than kern.log when triaging? Is the information different? [01:59] stenten: dmesg only gives the log from the current session, kern.log is much longer [01:59] Hmm, that's what I thought, thanks. [02:00] I still find it odd that people ask for dmesg after a lockup that requires a reboot. Because by then it's a new session, right? [03:07] trinikrono: i believe they're close to assigning students to mentors [03:08] ddecator: sweet =), im in line for a mentor [03:09] yah, i need to talk to pedro, so i can ask him the status of everything then [03:12] How long is the mentor process proposed to take? [03:13] it varies, depending on how active the student is. it usually lasts until the student gets into bug control, which can take one month or several [03:19] ok, I'm going to school in 2.5 months, so I need to get it done by then. [03:19] I just want to get this done over the summer because i have more free time now. [03:50] micahg: are you around? [03:53] drew212: yes [03:54] i want to get this bug triaged bug 317330, what do i need to do to complete it? [03:54] Launchpad bug 317330 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "[Master] No sound in Firefox (affects: 31) (dups: 12) (heat: 101)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/317330 [03:55] i would think its a low or maybe medium importance... [03:55] drew212: not sure, there's not enough info to do anything about it [03:56] what else would we need? [03:56] drew212: probably either a flash issue or a plugin [03:56] * micahg would not have duped them all... [03:56] yeah, we went through that last time =P [03:57] drew212: well, I'm still not so clear on the audio side of things, but I don't think Firefox has any control over the audio unless it's HTML 5 and not using a plugin [03:57] drew212: any youtube issues should be between flash and pulseaudio [03:58] drew212: also each version of Ubuntu has a different audio stack with its own quirks [03:58] drew212: there was a pulseaudio bug where it was locking the process so only 1 sound at a time worked [03:59] maco: are you still around? [03:59] yeah [03:59] just had a nice little fight with lp and bzr [03:59] oh god [03:59] * maco headdesk [04:00] idk, i just marked them all dupes becuase they were all experiencing no sound in firefox... i was being a bit zealous =D [04:00] oh oh wait i read ubot2's blah wrong [04:00] maco: any experience debugging sound issues? apparently some people have trouble with flash in Firefox [04:00] i thought it said 31 dupes [04:00] i tend to just assume it's adobe's fault [04:00] drew212: well, it's a natural conclusion, but after UDS, I feel it's not the correct way to go [04:01] UDS? [04:01] maco: I would tend to agree :) [04:01] ubuntu developer summit [04:01] ahh [04:01] once i get through school i hope to attend more ubuntu functions [04:01] we had many discussions on how bugs that look similar with different types of hardware can have different causes [04:01] maco: what was wrong with lp/bzr? [04:01] yeah sound is so convoluted that lots of seemingly the same ("they all say intel hda!") hardware that is actually very different can have similar symptoms that need different patches [04:02] lifeless: inexperience :) [04:02] well [04:02] if you have questions, ask!happy to help [04:02] i couldnt figure out how to change branch ownership [04:02] micahg: i apologize for my ignorance =P [04:02] drew212: well, no updates for 2.5 months, so I wonder if anyone is still experiencing it [04:02] there's a "change branch reviewer" button but the *owner* part is hidden inside "change branch details" which means i didnt find it [04:02] maco: ah; did you manage? [04:03] i dont have the problem in lucid [04:03] drew212: don't worry, we learn from experience [04:03] and then i wasnt sure if that was what i wanted, since i didnt know if itd rename the branch to match the team i was setting it to be owned by or if itd still have my username in it [04:03] micahg: true [04:03] drew212: I had a pulse issue for a while in karmic, but I think an update fixed it [04:03] lifeless: im declaring the fact that it took 2 people a half hour to find the way to change the owner a usability bug [04:03] sure :) [04:04] please do file a bug on launchpad-cde about finding it hard to find/use [04:04] nigel was the other who was going "wait wait i know its possible....somehow..." [04:05] drew212: so, once again, not really sure :) [04:05] lifeless: might want to pop into #gally and ask peacetara what she found difficult on lp. she just used it for the first time 2 days ago to push a branch to my project and she says it was very confusing [04:05] im used to most of LP's weirdness by now so im not a good usability test anymore [04:05] im going to post the Old untouched bugs respons from the bug responses wiki [04:05] oh, I know we're unusable [04:05] micahg: sound good? [04:05] I'm just offering to help when you're stuck :) [04:05] * micahg will do a quick search on adobe's tracker [04:06] it has been fixed for my dist. [04:07] ddecator, are you around? [04:07] drew212: there are a few bugs in adobe's tracker [04:08] drew212: also the 10.0.45 update might have fixed a few things [04:08] lifeless: well now im discovering that my gmail filters for bugmail are inadequate now that i report bugs in lp that arent ubuntu bugs :P all my bug subscriptions are going into the ubuntu folder, wrongly, so im trying to come up with filters that are actually correct. confusing. [04:08] micahg: so how should we proceed? [04:09] maco: ugh [04:09] * micahg still hides from most flash bugs :) [04:09] maco: gmail is a bit hard to filter well with [04:09] yeah [04:09] Project: Ubuntu in those long-form emails would make things simpler [04:09] drew212: well, you can search the adobe tracker and see if you find something that looks similar, we can note it move to flash and mark triaged [04:09] drew212: https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/ [04:10] drew212: actually: https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP [04:10] i have 2 filter rules. one matches on "package in ubuntu:" the other on "status in ubuntu:" because if theres no package marked yet its the latter [04:10] (aside from my ones that are for bugs assigned to me and so forth) [04:10] https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-2437 here is a simmilar one [04:11] well that was the problem i was having [04:11] there is another one that is resolved [04:12] drew212: a little out of date, but I'll bite, do you want to comment and add that to the description? [04:12] im looking for a more recent/relavant one... [04:12] drew212: k, let me know [04:14] micahg: here is a more recent one https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-2437 [04:16] drew212: that's the same one :P [04:16] oh damn =P [04:17] ok, so thats the most recent one with the same problem [04:17] drew212: k, let's take it, use the note about commenting upstream :) [04:18] the one saying that it has been reported to the developers of the software? [04:19] drew212: yep [04:19] should i add a package or no? [04:19] drew212: yeah, flashplugin-nonfree [04:20] micahg: also affects project button? [04:20] drew212: no, distro [04:20] drew212: LP can't interact with JIRA yet [04:21] micahg: ok... should i add anything asking them to test if its only a flash problem? [04:21] drew212: who, what, where? [04:22] at the end of my comment, should i say something like, could you please test this to verify that it is a flash plugin problem or just assume that it is? [04:23] drew212: you can say if someone if still experiencing it, if they can comment on the upstream bug [04:23] micahg: Thank you for your bug report. This bug has been reported to the developers of the software. You can track it and make comments at: https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/FP-4588. If anyone is still experiencing this bug, please comment on the upstream bug. [04:23] drew212: with their latest software versions [04:23] Does that look good as a comment? [04:24] drew212: that's a newer one :) [04:24] whats a newer one? [04:24] the one in that link [04:24] micahg: yeah, thats the one i linked no? [04:24] drew212: no [04:24] oh, damn my clumsiness [04:24] drew212: also, that one it works and then stops, is that the symptom? [04:25] oh, no, lol i have so many tabs open i'm getting helluva confused [04:26] ok i changed it to the original bug FP-2437 [04:26] drew212: sounds good [04:27] ok done... [04:27] now can we triage it? [04:27] *not a member of bug control [04:27] drew212: doing it now :) [04:28] drew212: what importancE? [04:28] second, i said low but i dont remember why [04:29] drew212: you didn't say why :) [04:29] micahg: i had the reason in my head =P [04:29] * micahg is going to set it to medium since it makes part of a core app not work [04:30] because sound is a more cosmetic/usability issue it doesnt limit the functionality of the application [04:30] drew212: part of the functionality is watching youtube videos :) [04:30] yeah =P [04:30] but its easily worked around, you can whistle your own music :P [04:30] medium sounds good [04:32] drew212: done [04:32] sweet =) [04:32] i finally feel like i triaged a bug and completed something now =) [04:33] drew212: congrats :) on to the next one? [04:33] sure =) [04:33] i need to start doing 5-a days [04:33] drew212: k [04:33] how about the firefox bookmark dragging one? [04:35] all the hard ones... [04:35] lol, did you have an easy one in mind? [04:35] drew212: k, number? [04:35] i gotta find it first [04:38] hmm i cant seem to find it, do you have any bugs in mind? [04:38] drew212: just pick one [04:39] well the dragging bookmark one is really starting to annoy me, because i experience it =P [04:41] how about bug 452608 [04:41] Launchpad bug 452608 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) "it is probably related with playing videos (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/452608 [04:41] the name needs to be changed first off =P [04:42] and its a really old bug [04:42] * micahg thinks it was solved [04:43] is it a duplicate? [04:43] drew212: oh, maybe not... [04:43] drew212: I'd definited ask if they're still affected [04:44] posting the old untouched bugs comment [04:45] do i leave the brackets in apport-collect ? [04:45] micahg: or do i just add the number after the # sign? [04:46] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Old%20untouched%20bugs [04:52] drew212: no, replace with the bug number [04:58] alrite, done... [04:58] O_o i found a bug simmilar to the one we triaged [04:59] drew212: don't forget to set to incomplete when asking for info [04:59] done [05:00] how should we handle bug 445937 [05:00] Launchpad bug 445937 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) "there is no audio in flash (YouTube) (affects: 7) (heat: 36)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/445937 [05:01] should i start by marking firefox-3.5 invalid, and adding flashplugin-nofree? [05:01] drew212: that's the same upstream flash bug [05:02] so mark it as a dupe? or do the same as the last one? [05:02] drew212: mark as a dupe and fix the title [05:02] fix the title? [05:02] drew212: no audio in browsers [05:02] drew212: that's what the upstream bug is [05:03] should i leave [master]? [05:03] drew212: sure [05:03] the upstream bug title is no sound in flash [05:04] drew212: you're right, that sounds better too :) [05:05] ok done [05:06] feature requests are for ubuntu.brainstorm correct? [05:06] drew212: depends [05:07] check out bug 429547 [05:07] Launchpad bug 429547 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) "Feature Request: Printing, Optimizing Space (affects: 2) (heat: 10)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429547 [05:07] it doesnt look like one for brainstorm, but i man be wrong [05:08] drew212: nope, not for brainstorm, but something's not right, that shouldn't ahppen [05:08] ok, so how do we continue? ask for more information? [05:08] drew212: use old untouched bugs [05:08] also, the feature should already exist [05:10] should i remove feature request from the title? [05:10] drew212: can you test with print preview and see if you are experiencing it? [05:11] drew212: nah [05:11] i dont... i'm pretty sure i used to... [05:11] drew212: wait, yes [05:11] * micahg should mark wishlist instead [05:11] when my printer prints it always prints an extra page, but its usually blank =D [05:11] drew212: that's bad [05:11] i know, but i dont know how to reprort it correctly, so rather than have a bad bug report, i leave it be [05:11] i think it happens mostly with gimp.. [05:12] why would we wishlist it if it's a bug? [05:12] drew212: ah, so a global problem [05:12] drew212: feature request is wishlist [05:12] micahg: i thought we determined it's a bug? [05:13] drew212: well, I forgot, need to go to bed soon :) [05:13] lol, me too [05:13] so, mark it as incomplete? [05:14] drew212: yep [05:14] micahg: finished? [05:14] drew212: with? [05:15] the bug [05:15] drew212: yes [05:15] i think its a printer problem though, because it happens with every browser he uses... [05:16] what distro would that be? [05:16] drew212: hopefully Ubuntu, see nick :P [05:16] nixternal? [05:17] nick who? [05:17] drew212: no, ubuntu_giant (reporter) [05:17] what is that? [05:17] drew212: look who submitted the bug report [05:17] oh! [05:18] im going to move on for now... [05:18] i have 2 more bugs to hit before 12 =P [05:18] drew212: I think printing is handled by cairo, if you want you can search here for a similar report: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ [05:20] nothing i could find [05:20] what is freedesktop bugzilla? [05:28] drew212: freedesktop.org is where xorg and cairo amongst other things come from [05:28] O_o [05:33] micahg: does bug 304306 need to be marked triaged because it has been found upstream already? [05:33] Launchpad bug 304306 in firefox-3.5 (Ubuntu) (and 3 other projects) "Firefox auto scroll icon is not transparent (affects: 5) (heat: 32)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/304306 [05:34] drew212: let me see [05:34] i can confirm it [05:38] drew212: which version? [05:39] 3.6.3 [05:39]