[15:00] <bac> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
[15:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:00] <bac> hi, welcome to the launchpad reviewers meeting.  who is here?
[15:00] <gary_poster> apres moi le deluge
[15:00] <gmb> me
[15:00] <noodles775> bac: can I add to the agenda that jelmer graduates?
[15:00] <mars> me!
[15:01] <bigjools> me
[15:01] <noodles775> me
[15:01] <sinzui> me
[15:01] <deryck> me
[15:01] <henninge> me
[15:01] <abentley> me
[15:01] <jtv> me
[15:01] <bac> noodles775: i think that will fit nicely in the mentoring update!
[15:02] <bac> EdwinGrubbs: ping
[15:02] <EdwinGrubbs> me
[15:02] <BjornT> me
[15:03] <leonardr> me
[15:03] <adeuring> me
[15:03] <bac> well that looks quorum-ish, so let's start
[15:03] <bac> [topic] agenda
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[15:03] <bac>  * Roll call
[15:03] <bac>  * Agenda
[15:03] <bac>  * Outstanding actions
[15:03] <bac>  * Mentoring update
[15:03] <bac>  * New topics
[15:03] <bac>    * make lint [deryck]
[15:03] <bac>    * Using slave stores to speed up your code [bigjools]
[15:03] <bac>    * ec2 fix update.
[15:03] <jelmer_> me
[15:03] <bac> [topic] outstanding actions
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions
[15:04] <bac> firstly, i'm lax and didn't even take up abentley's offer of assistance.  will do so this week.  :(
[15:04] <bac>  * bac and abentley  to define new doctest policy regarding what is "testable documentation".
[15:04] <bac>  * sinzui to talk to QA about our QA tracking problem and create a proposal on the mailing list
[15:04] <bac> sinzui: i didn't see this.  was it sent?
[15:05] <sinzui> That was co-opted by flacoste who was to have a talk with Urshina
[15:05] <sinzui> I think we need to remove this task.
[15:05] <sinzui> No I think we need to redefine it. I think we still have a problem
[15:05] <bac> sinzui: ok.  i'll remove it and follow up with francis
[15:06] <bac> * Bjornt to set a policy on what can live in lib/lp, lib/services, and lib/coop
[15:06] <BjornT> not done
[15:06] <bac> BjornT: ok, roll to next week
[15:06] <bac>  * gary_poster and ursinha to email the list re: orphan branches policy and solution
[15:06] <sinzui> because as RM I had two lists of items reporting QA state, and I do not think either was current at the time
[15:06] <gary_poster> bac: I discussed that with interested parties instead.  We ill send out email once work is done.
[15:06] <gary_poster> we will
[15:07] <bac> gary_poster: excellent.  i'll consider it done then for this meeting
[15:07] <gary_poster> cool thanks
[15:07] <bac> new items
[15:07] <bac> [topic] mentoring update
[15:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
[15:07] <bac> noodles775, good news?
[15:08] <noodles775> Yup... Jelmer is (and has been for a while) very ready to graduate :)
[15:08] <noodles775> Congrats jelmer_ :)
[15:08] <jelmer_> noodles775: thanks! :-)
[15:08] <jelmer_> noodles775: ... and thanks for mentoring, it's much appreciated.
[15:08] <bigjools> well done jelmer_
[15:08] <bac> excellent jelmer_.  thanks for your work noodles775
[15:08] <deryck> congrats to jelmer_ !
[15:09] <gary_poster> yay :-)
[15:09] <bac> jelmer_: please look at the schedule and pick a day that needs EU help
[15:09] <bac> [topic] * make lint [deryck]
[15:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  * make lint [deryck]
[15:09] <jelmer_> bac: ok
[15:10] <deryck> ok, so make lint has become increasingly noisy for me....
[15:10] <deryck> so much so that it is not so useful anymore.
[15:11] <mwhudson> deryck: please remove pylint
[15:11] <deryck> 1) can we fix it?  I hear sinzui has ideas.  and 2) are people reviewing for lint anymore?
[15:12] <deryck> mwhudson, others suggested this, and I don't mind doing that.  But I heard sinzui might have a better script altogether from what we have now.
[15:12] <sinzui> 1) replace pyflakes with pep8 in a risky shell hack
[15:13] <sinzui> 2) extract formater.py from my gdp project to be a standalone linter. It is 100% python, much faster than the shell tools, and it is more accurate
[15:14] <bac> sinzui: how much effort is 2?
[15:14] <sinzui> I have not put looked at it. probably doable in 6 hours
[15:14] <deryck> If others are fine with those suggestions, I'm happy to take on a branch to do this, if sinzui will review it. :-)
[15:14] <sinzui> We need to add pep8 to contrib in the tree
[15:14] <bigjools> for those using vim, please use the pyflakes plugin, it's awesome: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2441
[15:15] <bac> sinzui: do you want to take that task, in your abundance of time?
[15:15] <bac> bigjools: and the one for emacs rocks too!
[15:15] <sinzui> I can look at it in 7 hours
[15:15] <bac> sinzui: thanks.
[15:16] <deryck> bigjools, bac -- I imagine this is how make lint became useless is we all have individual linters, but having a useful make lint is nice when reviewing.
[15:16] <bac> [action] sinzui to work on extracting a new linter
[15:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sinzui to work on extracting a new linter
[15:16] <bigjools> it needs to be accurate though, the noise we get now on the webservice declarations is incredible
[15:16] <bac> deryck: i agree.  when people include the lint output in their MPs it makes me happy.
[15:16] <abentley> deryck, also the lp_review_body plugin will include it in the review body.
[15:17] <sinzui> bigjools, my linter uses pyflakes, pep8 and builtin libs to provide s consistent report, I even designed the report to use GUI and command line output (makes testing easy)
[15:17] <bigjools> nice
[15:17] <bac> bigjools: but those webservice declarations are actually things we can fix to silence
[15:17] <bac> [topic] * Using slave stores to speed up your code [bigjools]
[15:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  * Using slave stores to speed up your code [bigjools]
[15:18] <bigjools> hai
[15:18] <deryck> thanks for the discussion on lint, ya'll. :-)
[15:18] <bigjools> so with the snafu on db performance this week and in particular the depwait-scanner, I converted it to use the slave store as much as possible
[15:18] <bac> deryck: a real southerner knows how to spell y'all!
[15:18] <deryck> dang.
[15:18] <bigjools> you y'all is the plural
[15:18] <bigjools> anyway
[15:19] <deryck> real southerners can't spell
[15:19] <bigjools> I used the information in lib/canonical/launchpad/doc/db-policy.txt
[15:19] <bigjools> which is a veritable mine of useful info on slave databases
[15:19] <bigjools> I encourage everyone to read it
[15:19] <deryck> adeuring is about to convert bug search to use slaves.
[15:19] <bigjools> the depwait scanner runs quite a bit quicker using the slaves
[15:20] <jtv> Not to mention potential future scaling.
[15:20] <bigjools> I'm also perusing the code for anything that hard-codes MAIN_STORE which is utterly gross
[15:20] <bigjools> I suggest we all do the same
[15:20] <jtv> bigjools: MAIN_STORE or MASTER_FLAVOR?
[15:20] <bigjools> and maybe, just maybe LP will be that bit quicker
[15:20] <jtv> Because MAIN_STORE usually makes sense to me.
[15:21] <bigjools> I am using the adapter instead
[15:21] <bigjools> IMasterStore(object)
[15:21] <bigjools> the getUtility is gross
[15:21] <abentley> (or even IStore(class))
[15:21] <bigjools> that doctest doesn't even mention it
[15:21] <bigjools> the doctest also shows a cool with: syntax
[15:22] <bigjools> anyway, read it guys
[15:22] <bigjools> EOT
[15:22] <bac> thanks bigjools
[15:22] <bigjools> welcome
[15:22] <bac> [topic] * ec2 fix update.
[15:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  * ec2 fix update.
[15:23] <bac> so good news from mars on ec2.  windmill tests are re-enabled.  thanks mars.
[15:23] <mars> bac, and bad news
[15:23] <gary_poster> there's a bit of a snafu if you use a symlinked ec2 to test legacy branches, as I do.  It will make for some very quick, erroneous successes.
[15:23] <gary_poster> oh sorry
[15:24] <mars> about to send out a warning to the list: you MUST merge devel into any branch you plan to run through ec2test for the next few hours
[15:24] <mars> This mucks up db-devel ec2 runs - sorry, it will be fixed soon.
[15:25] <mars> More details will be in the list mail I will send shortly.
[15:25] <bac> thanks mars
[15:25] <bac> [topic]  move code out of c/l [thumper]
[15:25] <MootBot> New Topic:   move code out of c/l [thumper]
[15:25] <bigjools> haha
[15:26] <bac> in the asiapac meeting last week thumper brought up his desire to start getting more stuff out out canonical/launchpad
[15:26] <bac> our big code re-org was started in march 2009...so it's been a long while that we've had stuff festering there
[15:27] <bac> thoughts?
[15:27] <gary_poster> Devil's advocate (gary_poster prepares for rotten tomatoes):
[15:27] <gary_poster> Right now it seems like we have core bits like webapp in c/l
[15:28] <gary_poster> and everything else elsewhere
[15:28] <gary_poster> I fond things pretty easily
[15:28] <gary_poster> um, find
[15:28] <gary_poster> Is the cost of continuing the code reorg going to bring an appropriate level of benefit?
[15:29]  * gary_poster goes and looks at c/l as he should have before opening his mouth
[15:29] <sinzui> gary_poster, oh. I have a branch that removes most of the glob imports and had to remove hacks to webapp imports
[15:29] <jtv> Do we need a lib/lp/webapp?
[15:29] <bigjools> lib/lp/core maybe
[15:30] <sinzui> lp/services/webapp
[15:30] <gmb> gary_poster, I think that mailnotification.py needs to be refactored into the separate applications so that it can be got rid of altogether.
[15:30] <abentley> Yeah, webapp doesn't describe a lot of its contents well.
[15:30] <gmb> But that might be a separate issue, thinking about it.
[15:31] <sinzui> gary_poster, everyone. do not talk about moving these until you have also made plans to deal with shipit
[15:31]  * sinzui cannot consider asking for a review of super import fix without first decoupling shipiy
[15:31]  * deryck cries "death to mailnotification.py!"
[15:31] <bac> part of thumper's annoyance was seeing *new* stuff appearing in c/l.
[15:31] <gary_poster> is mailnotification.py really a reason to get rid of c/l?
[15:32] <sinzui> 1. do not land in c/1, 2. if you must change work with something in it, move it first
[15:32] <mars> bigjools, +1 on core
[15:32] <abentley> gary_poster, lib/lp is a reason to get rid of lib/canonical/launchpad
[15:32] <gary_poster> I don't like that.
[15:33] <bac> gary_poster: which that?
[15:33] <gary_poster> what sinzui proposed
[15:33] <gary_poster> abentley, but what's the benefit?
[15:33] <deryck> gary_poster, no, that file should be dismantled anyway.  regardless of what happens to lib/canonical
[15:33] <gary_poster> right now, this is what I see:
[15:33] <gary_poster> (agreed, deryck)
[15:33] <abentley> gary_poster, consistency.  Not having two names for something.
[15:34] <gary_poster> lp has lots of bits that are specific to the core apps
[15:34] <abentley> gary_poster, I would have been fine with keeping canonical/launchpad, but since we have come this far, we should finish the renaming.
[15:34] <gary_poster> l/c has stuff that...foundations touches.
[15:35] <gary_poster> abentley: fair enough, I see your perspective.  I don't buy that the cost is worthwhile.  I don't buy that sinzui's approach alone is going to get us anywhere except more separation for what foundations touches
[15:36] <gary_poster> But this is a vote sort of thing
[15:36] <bac> gary_poster: indeed
[15:36] <gary_poster> So, I said my piece :-)
[15:36] <mars> gary_poster, I'm +1 on refactoring.  There are no less than six places that the test infrastructure is set up - refactoring at least straightens stuff out: if you find something, you will try to move it to a better place
[15:36] <sinzui> gary_poster, it does not get us far because most engineers are not comfortable refactoring the code, and I believe they fear that they do not have permission or time do dtrt
[15:37] <bac> [vote] We should move towards dismantling canonical/launchpad into more appropriate spots within lib/lp.
[15:37] <MootBot> Please vote on:  We should move towards dismantling canonical/launchpad into more appropriate spots within lib/lp..
[15:37] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:37] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #launchpad-meeting
[15:37] <abentley> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from abentley. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:37] <mars> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from mars. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:37] <gary_poster> -1
[15:37] <MootBot> -1 received from gary_poster. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:37] <adeuring> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from adeuring. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:37] <gmb> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from gmb. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:37] <bigjools> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from bigjools. 5 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[15:37] <bac> +1
[15:37] <MootBot> +1 received from bac. 6 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
[15:37] <sinzui> The easy work was done. Most of the remaining code does not have an obvious place. We often need to know the tree names to do a rename, ans we do not know them for these service-like code
[15:38] <henninge> +1
[15:38] <MootBot> +1 received from henninge. 7 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
[15:38] <gary_poster> That's probably enough, isn't it :-)
[15:38] <sinzui> +1
[15:38] <MootBot> +1 received from sinzui. 8 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
[15:38] <bac> voting ends in 10 seconds
[15:38] <jelmer_> +1
[15:38] <MootBot> +1 received from jelmer_. 9 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
[15:38] <bac> [endvote]
[15:38] <MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
[15:38] <bigjools> lol
[15:38] <gary_poster> :-) fair enough
[15:39] <sinzui> I saw pagetitles.py was updated for shipit yesterday. we do not support page titles, but shipit and some pages are still using the dead code
[15:39] <bigjools> easy for every who's *not* doing the work to +1 that :)
[15:39] <bac> the results won't be official until the new zealand and colorado precincts report
[15:39] <bigjools> everyone*
[15:39] <sinzui> Who is fixing shipit?
[15:39] <gary_poster> heh
[15:40] <bac> bigjools: yeah, signaling our intent is easy.  doing the work is harder.
[15:40] <gary_poster> (well, I'm not going to be keen on scheduling foundations to do much of that to be honest, except as part of other refactoring, as sinzui said.)
[15:40] <bac> gary_poster: i think that is appropriate.
[15:40] <gary_poster> cool
[15:40] <bac> [topic] peanut gallery
[15:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
[15:40] <sinzui> I will post an email about names. The migrater script can move most of the chunks of code if we have names for them.
[15:41] <bac> any  other topics in the remaining 4 minutes?
[15:41] <jelmer_> actually, I was wondering if anybody had any good suggestions for my regular review day
[15:41] <deryck> no one was around this morning when I needed a review. :-)
[15:41] <jelmer_> I'm on thursdays together with noodles775 at the moment but according to the schedule we already have one person for each weekday in europe
[15:42] <bac> jelmer_: it looks up to you.  every day has EU coverage
[15:42] <bigjools> Friday - it's the best day;  Just ask sinzui
[15:42] <deryck> unless pqm is closing that day ;)
[15:42] <bigjools> shhh
[15:42] <deryck> heh
[15:42] <jelmer_> :-)
[15:43] <henninge> jelmer_: I think you could support jtv because he is not really in EU timezone
[15:43] <jtv> Isn't allenap in the proper EU slot?
[15:43] <bac> good suggestion, henninge
[15:43] <sinzui> I give out RCs before PQM closes. I think you do want to ask me for the review in that case
[15:43] <bac> jtv: allenap is on rotation
[15:43] <jtv> facepalm
[15:43] <jtv> of course
[15:43] <bac> thanks for coming everyone and for the good discussion
[15:44] <bac> #endmeeting
[15:44] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:44.
[15:44] <jtv> thanks bac
[15:44] <deryck> thanks bac
[15:44] <jelmer_> thanks bac
[15:44] <noodles775> Cheers
[15:45] <gary_poster> thank you
[22:32] <bac> hi rockstar, thumper.  is this a good time?
[22:34] <rockstar> bac, sorry, still on the standup.  thumper is long winded...  :)
[22:35] <bac> rockstar: ping me when he runs out of steam
[22:35] <rockstar> bac, it could be a while...  :)
[22:35] <bac> i've nowhere to go...
[22:39] <thumper> bac: standup finished now
[22:39] <bac> cool
[22:40] <bac> Let's start the NZ-CO-NC reviewers meeting
[22:40]  * rockstar  
[22:41] <bac> you don't say?
[22:41] <bac> so we had a lively meeting this morning
[22:41] <bac> no one actually got to any of the outstanding actions.  i think i should remind people on mondays but i never get around to it...
[22:42] <bac> deryck whinged about 'make lint' spewing way too much junk to be useful.
[22:43] <bac> sinzui has a plan to replace pyflakes with a tool he's written.  claims it is much more accurate and faster.
[22:43] <bac> not sure when he'll get to it.
[22:43] <rockstar> bac, I think pyflakes is okay, it's pylint that's annoying.
[22:43] <rockstar> bac, a few times I've been close to just changing the Makefile to kill the pylint call and asking forgiveness later.
[22:43] <bac> it is possible i got those two confused
[22:44] <bac> anyway the plan is for sinzui to swap out the crap one with something better.
[22:44] <wgrant> I love pyflakes, but pylint is more an exercise in adding ignores than anything else.
[22:44] <bac> and then we all buy him beer
[22:44] <rockstar> bac, many of us run pyflakes in $EDITOR and it works pretty quickly.
[22:45] <bac> rockstar: right.  i do in emacs.  bigjools pointed out the vim plug in.
[22:45] <bac> (and no flame war erupted)
[22:45] <sinzui> I run pyflakes, pep8 in my editor + real xml parsing the checks entities
[22:45] <rockstar> sinzui, aren't you using gedit?
[22:45] <bac> bigjools also brought up the huge gains he got by converting some code to use the slave store.
[22:45] <sinzui> yes
[22:45]  * rockstar shudders
[22:45] <sinzui> I wrote the plugin
[22:46] <bac> he suggested lib/canonical/launchpad/doc/db-policy.txt should be required reading for all of us.
[22:47] <bac> mars talked a bit about his fixes to ec2 and mentioned some short-term pain wrt db-devel
[22:47] <bac> but the good news is it looks like he's got a handle on getting it to be more reliable and that makes me very happy.
[22:48] <bac> and then i brought up thumper's concern from last time about moving stuff out of canonical/launchpad
[22:48] <bac> we had a good discussion where gary questioned whether it was worth the effort.
[22:49] <bac> everyone else thought it was worthwhile.  but it will remain as a techdebt issue to be handled as we have time.
[22:49] <thumper> I think it is worth the effort :)
[22:49] <bac> yeah, i figured it would get one or two votes here
[22:50] <bac> oh and the other good news was that jelmer has graduated as a reviewer.
[22:51] <bac> did everyone see flacoste's email suggesting a 'text' review type for mrevell to look at textual changes?  sounds like a good plan to me.
[22:52] <bac> that's about it from the AMEU meeting.
[22:52] <bac> either of you have new topics?
[22:53] <bac> going once
[22:53] <thumper> no
[22:53] <bac> ok.  well i guess that's it then.
[22:54] <thumper> thanks bac
[22:54] <bac> i'll see you later.