[00:25] <Takyoji> Anyone used PyGTK at all?
[01:17] <jchristensen> Anyone read Jono's Book, "The Art of Community"?
[01:18] <Takyoji> I've been curious of it previously, but haven't read it
[01:18] <jchristensen> Its quite good, been reading it this past week
[01:18] <Takyoji> ahh
[01:20] <tonyyarusso> I thought about picking up a copy, but haven't so far.
[01:22] <jchristensen> Has been a very interesting read, I'd like to get more active in the community
[01:23] <Takyoji> It's also available freely as a PDF as well, correct?
[01:23] <jchristensen> I'm not sure
[01:23] <Takyoji> http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/downloads/jonobacon-theartofcommunity-1ed.pdf
[01:26] <jchristensen> Good to know. Already purchased it, I'll help support Jono, and save on the eye strain
[01:33] <Takyoji> heh yea
[14:24] <kermit> where should one start looking for a linux job?   also if anyone could send me their resume for examples i'd appreciate it.
[15:43] <Takyoji> I'd also be curious as well
[15:51] <ripps> From my experience, if you want to have a job where Linux is the primary focus, you'll probably need to be a serious coder, either that, or a server admim. But employers don't know what to make of linux. It's best to have some more generic degrees, certifications, and job experience.
[15:52] <ripps> Unless, of course, your trying to join an established linux company like redhat or canonical. Either way, you'll probably need some mad coding skills to get hired
[16:14] <kermit> i've been using linux since 1996 and have been coding since 1983
[16:14] <kermit> the reason that i dont know the first thing about finding a linux job is that i've never had to try before :/
[18:57] <rlaager> kermit: In what area of the state are you looking for a job?
[19:07] <tonyyarusso> kermit: Of my jobs where I used Linux, here's how I got them:
[19:07] <tonyyarusso> 1) New the guy from previously being co-workers at Erik's Bike Shop
[19:08] <tonyyarusso> 2) Stood out as a student who knew my way around Linux at Saint Paul College, hired first as student help then regular staff
[19:08] <tonyyarusso> 3) Craigslist
[19:08] <tonyyarusso> Dice.com is good for both help-desk monkeys and senior admins, but not much in between currently.
[19:09] <tonyyarusso> Remind me about the resume in the evening.
[19:10] <tonyyarusso> For what those jobs were, 1) random technical help, low-key server admin, 2) combination server admin & workstation support, 3) Linux-based virtual appliance development, testing, documentation, & support
[19:12] <tonyyarusso> 1) Now-defunct web-dev firm, 2) Saint Paul College Computing Careers Department, 3) Nagios, Inc. (current)
[19:26] <kermit> rlaager: minneapolis
[19:26] <kermit> tonyyarusso: thanks!
[19:27] <tonyyarusso> wow, *Knew on that first one
[19:27] <kermit> gnu!
[19:30] <kermit> oh all FOSS ppl should start saynig gnu for new/knew
[19:30] <Obsidian1723> I GNU that
[19:30] <kermit> i think i will, maybe it'll start a movement
[20:06] <tonyyarusso> heh
[20:08] <Takyoji> ITT Technical college sounds just a little Windows-centric
[20:09] <Takyoji> based upon my visit today
[20:09] <tonyyarusso> Doesn't surprise me.
[20:09] <Takyoji> Linux is available as an aside practically.
[20:09] <tonyyarusso> Saint Paul College and Hennepin Tech both had some decent Linux stuff, although I don't know if I'd go as far as Linux-centric.  Probably fairly even-handed.
[20:10] <Takyoji> I'd rather do something platform-agnostic and about the actual concepts rather than "You double click this, click this tab, click this button (...)"
[20:10] <tonyyarusso> Metro State uses Linux for some courses too.
[20:10] <tonyyarusso> oh, yeah, no
[20:10] <Takyoji> ahh
[20:11] <tonyyarusso> Saint Paul College has "Operating System Fundamentals" (courses I and II), which use Linux because they can demonstrate the point more in-depth.
[20:11] <Takyoji> My only issue for the "better" colleges would be acceptance, since I'm not Mr. 4.0 GPA or anything of that nature.
[20:12] <Takyoji> And I haven't taken the ACT/SAT
[20:13] <Takyoji> Is it common for colleges to let you just take the test for a class and receive credit (if you obviously pass) without having to pay for that course, or?
[20:13] <tonyyarusso> What "better" colleges offer anything resembling tech courses?
[20:14] <tonyyarusso> Unless you wanted to go for an actual CompSci degree I guess - UMN & St. Olaf both have good stuff for that.
[20:14] <tonyyarusso> No.  If you're lucky they might let you take the test and not have to attend, but you'd still have to pay regardless.
[20:15] <Takyoji> Well generally speaking, colleges that have strict acceptance requirements are probably the ones I wouldn't be able to get into, is just one limiting factor for me in general.
[20:15] <Takyoji> For ITT they implied I'd be able to take a test for a course and actually wouldn't have to pay for that course (if I didn't need to go through it)
[20:16] <tonyyarusso> So, St. Olaf is out.  Everything else mentioned is in.  UMN would probably make you take the ACT or SAT first.
[20:17] <tonyyarusso> h00k: Teach me about debhelper :P
[20:17] <Takyoji> Though I presume U of M is an arm and a leg.
[20:17] <Takyoji> (in cost)
[20:18] <tonyyarusso> Not compared to the "better" schools.  Compared to the community colleges yes.
[20:19] <tonyyarusso> 2009-10 tuition and fees for new students (based on two semesters of full-time enrollment)
[20:19] <tonyyarusso> Minnesota residents - $11,542
[20:20] <Takyoji> and for U of M, I'd pretty much need full dedication towards it, or would be able to have a job at the same time?
[20:20] <h00k> tonyyarusso: uuuum
[20:20] <h00k> debhelper, I bet ripps would know.
[20:20] <tonyyarusso> For comparison, St. John's University:
[20:20] <tonyyarusso> For the 2010-2011 academic year:
[20:20] <tonyyarusso> * Tuition and fees: $31,576
[20:21] <tonyyarusso> h00k: true
[20:21]  * tonyyarusso pokes the absent ripps
[20:21] <h00k> I don't know enough to be able to help you :(
[20:21] <Takyoji> I think you can ask for a mentor with using debhelper and so on
[20:21] <h00k> tonyyarusso: or..Amaranth I bet would know
[20:21] <tonyyarusso> yeah, but -motu is pretty dead atm
[20:21] <Takyoji> over the MOTU mailing list I believe
[20:21] <Takyoji> ahh
[20:22] <h00k> tonyyarusso: Amaranth poked his head in before in -offtopic
[20:22] <Takyoji> then resurrect them. :P
[20:25]  * Takyoji plays Gish
[20:32] <Takyoji> Perhaps we could have a meeting or something via IRC or something for those curious of doing deb packaging
[20:34] <tonyyarusso> That'd be good, yes.  Michigan does that a lot.
[20:34] <Takyoji> and could also work on accommodating learning materials/printouts
[21:14] <Obsidian1723> http://www.ucalgary.ca/news/may2010/typhoid read it and the white paper at the bottom.
[21:27] <kermit> i've been rather unsuccesfully self-employed for a long time, i'm having a hard time with this "employment history" part of my resume.. i have skills, i just don't know how to make anyone believe that i do.
[21:30] <kermit> how do you get past HR to the techies who can guage your skills on their own merits?
[21:31] <h00k> magics
[21:32] <kermit> maybe targetting smaller businesses who don't have an HR department..
[21:36] <Obsidian1723> kermit, thats where certs are handy.. HR rou8nd files many who dont have X Y and Z
[21:37] <Obsidian1723> certs alone, like experience alone, arent valid.
[21:37] <Obsidian1723> You need both.
[21:37] <Obsidian1723> For certs, in this economy, there are MANY unemployeed MCSE, CCNA, etc, so for for something like the RHCE, Security+, Linux+, Juniper certs, Ethical Hacker Cert, etc.
[21:38] <kermit> Obsidian1723: rou8nd?
[21:38] <Obsidian1723> A lot of it too is how your resume reads
[21:38] <Obsidian1723> - 8 typo
[21:38] <kermit> "round"?
[21:38] <Obsidian1723> I can look at your resume if you want, finese it out a bit.
[21:38] <kermit> i thought i'd always be self employeed, i have no certs
[21:38] <kermit> you're already on the list to send it to, when i finish writing it :)
[21:38] <Obsidian1723> Yeah, Ive been at it 32 years, never got "The Papers" until now.
[21:38] <kermit> and, thanks
[21:39] <Obsidian1723> You have my email?
[21:39] <kermit> no
[21:39] <Obsidian1723> rezphreak@hotmail.com
[21:39] <kermit> I had $500k just 3 years ago, this economy wiped me out faster than I could react.
[21:39] <kermit> i guess i'm a better coder than investor
[21:42] <Takyoji> Didn't know there was something called "Ethical Hacker Certification"
[21:42] <kermit> haha
[21:46] <Obsidian1723> what are your areas of expertise?
[21:47] <Obsidian1723> There is. Security certs are big. Surprisingly, you dont need them for the area Im going into, but I want them anyway.
[21:47] <Obsidian1723> Right now I have a DCSE, Network+, Linux+, and 32 years expedrience.
[21:47] <Obsidian1723> and I cant still type worth a damn
[21:49] <Obsidian1723> Kermit, what are your areas of exertise? and what areas do you have ewxperience in? they arent always the same.
[21:50] <kermit> Obsidian1723: my best skill is manipulating large sets of textual data with efficient combinations of bash/awk, gnu find/bin/text utils, and whatever custom C code is necessary, but i can admin too, i've been running linux since 1996 and have been on PCs since 1983... but the this resume is my top priority and you'll have it soon.
[21:50] <kermit> by large i mean, where cpu/memory/disk bandwidth is a bottleneck
[21:51] <Obsidian1723> ok, now, I would recommend a functional format vs a time line one.
[21:51] <kermit> ?
[21:51] <kermit> resume format?
[21:52] <kermit> yeah i pretty much have to do it that way
[21:52] <Obsidian1723> For example, my current job, and last 2 jobs before it, all dealt with custom software. I can use that. At one job, I monitored ATMs over high-security networks, at this job, I work in biometric security, I can link the two.
[21:54] <Obsidian1723> So since you can C program, that can be tied into bash scripting/programming, which can tie into administration.
[21:55] <kermit> i'd be a fine admin, but it wouldnt be up to my potential
[21:55] <Obsidian1723> You could also develop. The big thing is: What can I do for YOU? This is what I can do, how I can do it, and more over, here is HOW I did it, WHEN and WHERE I did it in the past, and how I can do it and benefit you now.
[21:56] <kermit> ok
[21:56] <Obsidian1723> You mean you can do more than admin?
[21:56] <kermit> i mean i'm a coder at heart
[21:56] <kermit> particularly, algorithms
[21:56] <Obsidian1723> Well, admin and developers/programmers are a different breed. Admins want network security, and developers/programmers whine about it because it "breaks" their code so they want root access to get things to work.
[21:57] <kermit> and an understanding of the underlying hardware and OS to make efficient routines
[21:57] <Obsidian1723> Then you should code.
[21:58] <Obsidian1723> You wopnt be happy admining
[21:58] <kermit> the most ideal job i ever had was generating statistics on DNA sequences, which was computationally intensive and didn't fit in RAM so eliminated typically taught techniques of 'load, process, store'
[21:58] <kermit> Obsidian1723: well, i would be if what  most admins tell me is true, that they only really work 1/3 of the time ;)
[21:59] <Obsidian1723> haha not quite true.
[22:03] <tonyyarusso> 32 years experience eh?  Obsidian1723 is old.
[22:03] <kermit> if we divide my hours on a PC over 40, and count that as the number of weeks, i have that many ;)  but i'm only 34.
[22:05] <Obsidian1723> Started at age 11 in 1978.,
[22:05] <Obsidian1723> 43 now.,
[22:34] <kermit> Obsidian1723: are you old enough to look at moder cell "phones" and think "100 new features that will take months to learn wont make up for 1 feature i'm accustomed to in my 2003 phone" ? :)
[22:37] <Obsidian1723> yup
[22:38] <Obsidian1723> If I wan t Internet, I have a desktyop and laptop.
[22:38] <kermit> if i wanted internet, i'd have stayed home ;)
[22:38] <Obsidian1723> I want my phone to be a phone. Texting is going backwards. If I wanted to comminicate old skool, Id use morse code, faster than texting.
[22:39] <Obsidian1723> dee dee da da deet da da deet
[22:39] <kermit> Obsidian1723: i miss my startac, it was 1/4 speaker, you didnt have to line up a pinhole with your ear.  it's still the best *phone* ever.
[22:39] <Obsidian1723> ..---.-.--
[22:39] <Obsidian1723> :D
[22:39] <kermit> but it cant text, and doestn have a calender, and i cant set certain people's ringtones to "none"
[22:44] <Obsidian1723> I had Sprint disable texting on my phone.
[22:51] <kermit> who's going to dc612 tommorow?
[22:51] <kermit> http://dc612.org/
[23:20] <Takyoji> If I was told prior I would have planned for it. :P
[23:20] <kermit> Takyoji: it's monthly, maybe next month then
[23:20] <Takyoji> ahh
[23:22] <kermit> Takyoji: so also is the 2600 meeting
[23:26] <kermit> both meet in or near downtown, which is ideal for me
[23:27] <kermit> downtown mpls
[23:45] <netbook> that sounds cool
[23:49] <kermit> mn2600 meetings get about a dozen people, dc612 had about 30
[23:49] <netbook> don't know much about penetration testing though
[23:49] <kermit> i've never heard anyone talk about that at either of those
[23:49] <netbook> one of my coworkers is working pen testing cell networks
[23:49] <netbook> maybe he will go
[23:51] <kermit> anyone who likes *nix fits in well at either, they usually arent actually penetration testing themed
[23:51] <kermit> back before people did financial transactoins online, that was just an ordinary part of the fun ;)
[23:52] <kermit> when 95% of the people on university servers were on stolen accounts