[12:25] <Guest74477> Hello, I'm using rootstock and am using --matchbox-desktop for a seed but I don't get a bootable desktop in qemu.
[12:26] <Guest74477> Is there other seeds I need to use?
[12:26] <Guest74477> x.org possibly?
[12:28] <Guest74477> ^?
[12:32] <Guest74477> ogra, ?
[12:55] <cwillu> Guest74477, matchbox-desktop isn't a full desktop environment
[12:56] <Guest74477> I downloaded the matchbox-panel, matchbox-window-manager , libmatchbox
[12:56] <Guest74477> matchbox-common
[13:02] <Guest74477> Its for an embedded device
[13:03] <cwillu> yes, but some assembly is required with that package
[13:04] <Guest74477> Do I need to build from source?
[13:04] <cwillu> no, you need to play with it in an otherwise already working machine (virtual or otherwise), and learn how the pieces fit together
[13:04] <Guest74477> Im running it in qemu so I can
[13:05] <Guest74477> The device is buttonless so Im having to design etc in a vm
[13:05] <cwillu> okay, but don't bite off more than you can chew
[13:05] <cwillu> your first step should be to get a completely standard install of some common distro working
[13:06] <Guest74477> use ubuntu-desktop as the seed?
[13:06] <Guest74477> It would be too heavy for the device (iPhone 3f
[13:06] <Guest74477> g)
[13:06] <cwillu> once you know that you've got boot loaders, kernels, drivers, and so forth handled, then you can start more adventurous things
[13:07] <Guest74477> We have OpeniBoot idroid kernel and almost all the drivers working on the kernel
[13:07] <cwillu> 'we' means you've actually had everything working yourself?
[13:07] <cwillu> if not, then that's your first step
[13:07] <cwillu> duplicating what's already been done
[13:08] <Guest74477> I've had Android up and running, someone else has had debian running but isnt releasing inscrtuctions
[13:08] <Guest74477> I have the boot loader and kernel and have them both running
[13:09] <cwillu> in the vm, how far have you gotten?
[13:09] <Guest74477> The idroid kernel passes off to android kernel where as the person who installed debian used only the idroi kernel
[13:09] <Guest74477> I've gotten it to boot to cli
[13:09] <Guest74477> Logged in and used apt-get etc.
[13:09] <cwillu> did you set anything up to start x?
[13:09] <Guest74477> Adde other port repo's to sources.list
[13:10] <Guest74477> I got x installed and started x it just loaded a black screen
[13:10] <cwillu> (typically you wouldn't use gdm on an embedded device, which is why matchbox-desktop doesn't depend on it)
[13:10] <Guest74477> There wasn't an xinitrc
[13:10] <Guest74477> There wasnt a gdm
[13:10] <Guest74477> It was a text base login
[13:10] <cwillu> yes, that's what I just told you :p
[13:10] <Guest74477> But that can be disabled
[13:11] <Guest74477> Or should I remove it and keep it single user?
[13:11] <cwillu> not sure how that's relevant :)
[13:11] <cwillu> your problems with x aren't related to what users you have
 (typically you wouldn't use gdm on an embedded device, which is why matchbox-desktop doesn't depend on it)
[13:11] <Guest74477> Should I remove gdm :p
[13:11] <Guest74477> ?
[13:11] <cwillu> is it installed?
[13:12] <Guest74477> No, it's just text based, I thought gdm was graphical
[13:12] <cwillu> okay, lets try a different approach to educating you :)
[13:12] <cwillu> what os are you running on your desktop?
[13:12] <cwillu> linux of some variety?
[13:13] <cwillu> spend some time learning how it's actually put together, which pieces are responsible for which tasks
[13:13] <Guest74477> I've been using linux on my desktop for a few years and have built by own x86 distro's I know a fair bit about building a distro it's just Im new to arm
[13:13] <cwillu> okay;  none of your issues are really arm related at the moment
[13:13] <Guest74477> I appreciate the help but that was a bit patronising
[13:13] <cwillu> i.e., if you can get x up at all, and so on
[13:14] <cwillu> you're aware that gdm is typically responsible for starting X on a desktop?
[13:14] <Guest74477> Gnome display manager?
[13:14] <cwillu> yes
[13:15] <cwillu> it's the part that actually runs X on a desktop
[13:15] <Guest74477> It isn't installed
[13:15] <Guest74477> Niether is gnome
[13:15] <cwillu> yes, so what do you have to actually start x?
[13:15] <Guest74477> x.org and the startx comman
[13:15] <Guest74477> d
[13:15] <cwillu> matchbox isn't a session, it's a bunch of pieces you use to make the exact pieces you need
[13:16] <cwillu> iirc, there's an /etc/matchbox-session (or something like that, it might actually be in /usr/bin) which is a simple script which you need to edit
[13:16] <Guest74477> Right, wouldnt it be best to use a lightweight window manager/ desktop like openbox to start a session?
[13:17] <Guest74477> Then add matchbox components to xinit after they've been configured?
[13:17] <cwillu> sorry if I sound patronizing, it's just tricky figuring out what a given person knows vs considers obvious vs knows nothing about
[13:17] <Guest74477> It's ok, thsnk
[13:17] <cwillu> Do you have anything in /etc/init or /etc/init.d (the first is preferred) to start x?
[13:18] <Guest74477> thank you for continuing to help after I said that most wouldn't :)
[13:18] <Guest74477> I've had to delete the img I made with rootstock due to an ext2 error, I didnt have the applications in the vm to fix it
[13:19] <Guest74477> I'll get it set up and add all the programs again. (Making a backup with time)
[13:19] <cwillu> most of the scripts you'll need to work with would be identical between x86 and arm
[13:20] <cwillu> what you might want to do is make a normal x86 server install in a vm, and build it up inside the vm
[13:20] <cwillu> once you know what pieces you need, it'll be easier to poke rootstock in the right way
[13:21] <cwillu> you'll need something to start X, http://pastebin.com/qSaxR3xh is a copy of what I use (just dump it in /etc/init)
[13:21] <Guest74477> I've done that before with x86, I started with ubuntu minimal, got a booting system installed blackbox and I was away. I can imagine it's same process with this now, but arm and embedded is still new waters, I'll let you know how iBuntu goes
[13:22] <cwillu> arm doesn't affect any of this though
[13:22] <Guest74477> ok
[13:22] <cwillu> all the same packages are available
[13:22] <cwillu> there might be an occasional bug that's in x86 that isn't in arm, or vice verse, but in general it works exactly the same
[13:22] <Guest74477> What does the -- vt7 -nr variables do for startx?
[13:22] <cwillu> man startx :)
[13:23] <cwillu> -- is the divider between parameters for the session vs parameters for the x server
[13:23] <cwillu> vt7 tells it to start on vt7
[13:23] <Guest74477> virtual terminal ie ctrl alt f7?
[13:24] <cwillu> -nr tells it not to blank the screen when x starts, so that the splash screen stays running;  that probably won't work for you though, as I had to patch the omapfb driver and I don't think that change has made it into ubuntu yet
[13:24] <cwillu> yes, exactly
[13:24] <cwillu> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ is the next place you want to look
[13:25] <cwillu> startx will fire off those scripts in the actual x instance
[13:25] <Guest74477> That sounds like what I was doing wrong, Is the the command you send me to be saved as initrd?
[13:25] <cwillu> note that that includes starting a default window manager, whatever "x-window-manager" happens to link to
[13:25] <cwillu> :)
[13:25] <cwillu> no
[13:26] <Guest74477> initrd is the ramdisk *facepalm*
[13:26] <Guest74477> xinitrc?
[13:26] <cwillu> /etc/init/ is where upstart scripts go
[13:26] <Guest74477> ok
[13:26] <cwillu> I generally call it /etc/init/xorg.conf
[13:30] <cwillu> Guest74477, I'm tarring up a copy of my modules.d (customization to rootstock), which contains a bunch of things split out into systems
[13:30] <cwillu> you won't be able to use it directly really, but it'll give you starting points for configuration, and clues as to where that configuration might happen
[13:31] <cwillu> Guest74477, http://cwillu.com/files/modules.tgz
[13:31] <Guest74477> Thanks, I'll resd through them, which window manager and desktop do you use/
[13:31] <cwillu> er, hang on a sec
[13:31] <cwillu> not sure I did what I tjhought I did
[13:32] <cwillu> no desktop, just a bare firefox session with a full-screen-on-startup extension, and a simple window manager (not strictly necessary, but convenient)
[13:32] <Guest74477> You use Web apps?
[13:33] <cwillu> ya, I've been doing the ipad thing since before there was an ipad :p
[13:34] <Guest74477> Heh, all you needed to do was to build a device
[13:34] <cwillu> mainly, I find it a very convenient to quickly make ui's, with the added bonus that the application is network-aware for free
[13:34] <cwillu> I actually do industrial datacapture and similar
[13:34] <Guest74477> And easily portable, compatibilty with any os with a browser
[13:35] <cwillu> more or less
[13:35] <cwillu> really only care about firefox, but yes
[13:37] <cwillu> Guest74477, okay, download that link now
[13:37] <Guest74477> I'm just untarring now
[13:37] <cwillu> did you download it before?
[13:38] <Guest74477> Yes
[13:38] <cwillu> if so, you got a few megabytes of random firefox profile that you won't need :p
[13:38] <Guest74477> Same url for the new file?
[13:38] <cwillu> yes
[13:39] <cwillu> frontend is the ony you're probably most interested in
[13:39] <cwillu> although packages has the omap3 driver with -nr support
[13:40] <Guest74477> What about backend?
[13:40] <cwillu> that fires up the webserver;  not much to it though
[13:41] <cwillu> the actual server code is elsewhere
[13:41] <cwillu> (gets pulled in from git in a customized rootstock when it builds the image)
[13:41] <Guest74477> Ok, I just noticed it was /etc/init
[13:41] <cwillu> yep
[13:41] <cwillu> basically what you have there is the plumbing to get things running, without any of the actual guts
[13:42] <cwillu> i.e., the files in frontend/ are basically everything you'd need to change to get a program running under x
[13:42] <cwillu> in my case firefox, but it could be anything
[13:43] <cwillu> I use a separate init script for firefox itself so that it'll reopen if it dies or is closed, etc
[13:43] <cwillu> you could do it from in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ as well, but that just feels ugly to me
[13:44] <Guest74477> So where does xinitrc fit into this or is that for individual user sessions?
[13:44] <cwillu> I don't use an xinitrc
[13:44] <cwillu> what I gave you is an overlay
[13:44] <Guest74477> ok
[13:44] <cwillu> if you look at the contents of /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ on an actual system, you'll see how all the usual hooks are implemented
[13:45] <Guest74477> Ill check on my own
[13:45] <cwillu> i.e., you should be able to look at your own desktop's /etc/X11/Xsession.d
[13:45] <cwillu> yep
[13:45] <cwillu> grep and find are your friends :)
[13:45] <Guest74477> Dont forget locate updatedb and whereis
[13:46] <Guest74477> And whatis
[13:46] <cwillu> for this task, grep and find are more important :p
[13:46] <cwillu> they're how you find out what you should be locating :)
[13:46] <Guest74477> I use grep anyway
[13:46] <Guest74477> :p
[13:46] <cwillu> also apropos and man
[13:46] <Guest74477> apropos?
[13:47] <cwillu> a better whatis
[13:47] <cwillu> it's a index for man pages
[13:47] <cwillu> so you can say apropos session, and look through the results to see what might be related to sessions
[13:48] <Guest74477> rootstock is unpacking now
[13:48] <cwillu> oh, a good speedup for rootstock:  set up apt-cacher, and use it for rootstock
[13:48] <Guest74477> Do it doesn't need to download?
[13:48] <Guest74477> so*
[13:49] <cwillu> it holds a cache of the downloads that happen through it, so that the next time you don't need to
[13:49] <cwillu> yep
[13:50] <Guest74477> Ill make a back up of the basic image for now :) If it works I'll probably use it then for distributing
[13:50] <Guest74477> I think adding touchscreen and wifi are going to be the worst things, but there's people I can ask
[13:50] <cwillu> pro-tip
[13:51] <cwillu> don't make an image that you distribute
[13:51] <cwillu> make a script to generate the image
[13:51] <cwillu> you'll save yourself alot of frustration
[13:51] <cwillu> any quick hack you make to an image should be folded into your script, and tested there
[13:51] <cwillu> otherwise you'll forget you made a change, or forget how you did it, etc
[13:52] <cwillu> wifi will be easy if the device is supported at all
[13:52] <cwillu> touchscreen probably as well
[13:52] <cwillu> just a matter of including the right drivers
[13:52] <Guest74477> There's kernel drivers and they work in Android
[13:53] <cwillu> so where's the problem? :p
[13:53] <Guest74477> I have the kernel and firmware files for both, but they arn't distrobutable, but there's scripts to get them
[13:53] <Guest74477> So the user will have to add them to the image anyway
[13:55] <cwillu> all the more reason to make a magic script that just builds the whole image :)
[13:55] <Guest74477> I've just been reading your blog, what's the pypy jit actually do :) , Is it just in time?
[13:57] <cwillu> that's what jit stands for
[13:58] <cwillu> pypy is actually a jit-generator + a python interpreter written in python (actually a subset of python)
[13:58] <cwillu> the jit-generator takes the python interpreter, and optimizes the hell out of it, such that they're actually faster than normal python in a few cases now
[14:01]  * cwillu considers updating his blog
[14:04] <Guest74477> In rootstock does update-alternatives: error: no alternatives for rlogin. meen that there's no arm port of rlogin?
[14:04] <cwillu> why in the name of schneier would you want rlogin!?
[14:05] <cwillu> and no, it just means you don't have an rlogin in your package list, which is a good thing
[14:05] <Guest74477> Im installing openssh with rootstock
[14:06] <cwillu> okay, I wouldn't worry about the error
[14:06] <cwillu> just checked, I get the same message;  it's not actually an error
[15:22] <Guest74477> lilstevie, ?
[15:30] <lilstevie> yes?
[15:30] <Guest74477> Its James
[15:30] <lilstevie> ah
[15:30] <Guest74477> Got it to boot yet?
[15:31] <lilstevie> im only around for a split second
[15:31] <Guest74477> ok
[15:32] <Guest74477> cwillu gave some good advice on booting to x