[00:15] dfarning: Hi David. [00:15] manusheel, hello, how are you? [00:16] dfarning: Good. Back to work. [00:17] dfarning: Thank you for sharing the links. [00:17] dfarning: Going through them. [00:18] manusheel, I took a nap this after noon so I could stay up later tonight if needed. [00:19] dfarning: Great. Sure, David. I hope you are also taking fine rest at night. Important for long term productivity. [00:20] dfarning, other wise I get grumpy and don't think clearly:( [12:29] kandarpk: Hi Kandarp. [14:50] bernie: there ? [16:09] kandarpk: Wish to ask you whether you have completed the five issues in reference to Sugar on Debian. [16:09] manusheel sir: the reading issue could not be solved [16:10] dfarning said we need to ask debian people to update the package [16:10] so that it can be downloaded [16:19] kandarpk, I think our biggest blocker is you and neeraj learning to the debian/git packaging process from dipankar. [16:20] manusheel sir: I am learning git usage right now [16:20] kandarpk: Ok. I'll communicate this to the Debian person. [16:20] just need to understand branching [16:20] kandarpk: Sure, Kandarp. Please get an understanding on git. [16:21] dfarning: Dipankar has been facing internet issues. I am not sure why you referred to it as a blocker. Dipankar is one of the most consistent team members here. [16:24] manusheel, Did not mean that as a criticism or either dipankar of anyone else. It is just the most important task. Any criticism goes to me for not being aware Luke was leaving so soon. [16:27] dfarning: Completely agree. It is indeed the most important task right now. No, I didn't mean it as a criticism. We generally don't use "blocker" for a delay. [16:27] dfarning: And, that too, not under Dipankar's control. [16:29] kandarpk: What all have we covered in git packaging uptill now, in terms of concepts? [16:30] manusheel sir: not packaging but usage of git in general [16:30] manusheel, ahh blocker must have a much more negative connotation then I thought. [16:30] manusheel sir: I've understood initiating a local repo [16:31] kandarpk: Ok, sure. Do you have sufficient resources on understanding git? Let me send you a couple of tutorials too. [16:31] working on files, commiting changes, making branches [16:31] manusheel sir: I am using tutorials from git official site [16:32] *they are quite good [16:32] dfarning: Absolutely fine. [16:32] kandarpk: Neat. Appreciate it. [16:34] dfarning, Hi [16:34] kandarpk, Hello [16:35] dfarning: got some understanding of git [16:35] wanted to share with you [16:35] let me know if I am wrong somewhere [16:35] kandarpk, sounds good. [16:36] dfarning: I think we make branches so that in one branch ( say Mainstream ) [16:37] we have got all the things going and all sources working [16:37] and another branch ( say Devel ) [16:37] which is used for development of a project [16:37] and when we are satisfied with the final code in Devel [16:38] we merge it with Mainstream [16:38] is it ok ? [16:38] dfarning: any other uses of branching ? [16:39] kandarpk, yes, that is correct and we will use branching for one other purpose [16:41] we will keep a number of permanent branches: debian (mainstream) -> ubuntu 10.04 -> ubuntu 10.10 [16:41] yeah [16:41] the ubuntu branches will hold ubuntu specific patches for each release [16:42] realise it now [16:43] but the very cool thing is that if any one commits a fix to debain (mainstream) we can pull in to either of the ubuntu branches. [16:43] yeah. [16:44] Things becoming very clear now [16:44] kandarpk, this is why it is not worth it to fix bugs in the current ubuntu packaging..... because we will just have to fix it again upstream in debain. [16:45] kandarpk, better to fix it once upsteam in debian and pull to the branches. [16:46] dfarning: definitely. [16:46] kandarpk, my problem is that I don't know to debian packaging process well enough to explain them. [16:46] dfarning: thats no problem [16:47] Jonas the olpc-debian maintainer invented the system himself so there is no documentation yet:) [16:47] dfarning: your guidance is very helpful [16:49] dfarning: what happens if we merge two branches having different files as well ? [16:51] kandarpk, this is where git is so clever. It can automatically detect changes in both the origin and destation branches. As long the the changed don't directly conflict it will apply changes as necessary. [16:52] dfarning: I mean, if in branch 1 I have file f1 [16:52] and in branch 2 i have file f1 and f2 [16:52] what will happen if we try to merge them ? [16:55] kandarpk, please take a look at the webcast on http://book.git-scm.com/3_basic_branching_and_merging.html it explains it better than I can. [16:55] Ok. [17:01] dipankar, hello [17:02] dfarning, hello. Sorry about yesterday. My net was down. [17:02] dipankar, no problem at all. Some things we can't fix:) [17:03] dfarning, yeah. So what is the topic today? [17:03] dfarning, * I had a very tiring day today. Hope you don't mind if I leave early today [17:04] dipankar, no problem [17:05] dfarning, tomorrow we are having bug bashing. Manu Sir must have told you. [17:05] dipankar, do you think you could explain to kandarpk and I how to build a debain package using git? [17:06] dfarning, I will try my best to tell you guys what Luke explained to me [17:06] :) [17:06] yes, dipankar I am starting to understand and respect the methodical workflow and QA you guys use. [17:07] dipankar, thanks [17:07] dfarning, :) [17:08] dfarning, But I would suggest following the IRC log side by side [17:09] dipankar, ok i'll start rereading the logs. [17:10] dipankar, in the mean time could you try packaging/updating another activity in the git repo? [17:11] dipankar: if you try, let me know [17:12] dfarning, How about I tell you and Kadarp sir to update a package? I guess that way I can revise things too. [17:13] dipankar, I am not sure shat you mean. [17:13] dfarning, I meant : I tell you and Kandarp Sir the steps in updating a package and you try the steps out on your machines. [17:15] dipankar, we can all do the same steps on our local machine.... just not the final push. [17:16] dfarning, yes. Good idea. [17:17] dfarning, which package do you want me to work upon? [17:18] dipankar, which ever looks easiest. We can do the complicated stuff later. [17:18] dfarning, ha ha! But I don't know which package needs what modification :( Luke only told what to change. [17:21] how about a simple activity that is already pacakged that needs a newer verison from ASLO [17:22] dfarning, kandarpk : I guess we can start with the logviewer-activity :) That file needed a control.in file made. [17:22] dipankar, sounds good [17:22] dfarning, ^^ That was my task actually. :P I guess we can work on it right now. [17:23] dipankar, sure [17:24] dipankar: but please start with some background to control.in [17:24] I read about it [17:24] but not very certain [17:25] kandarpk, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#control [17:26] kandarpk, please also read through this irc : http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/07/01/%23ubuntu-sugarteam.html [17:26] kandarpk, it is where we set the variable which determine how the package is built. [17:28] kandarpk, adding to David, it also contains the build dependencies without which the packaging cannot be complete [17:28] dipankar: I think there was some difference b/w control and control.in [17:28] dipankar, most of the stuff is pretty standard like the package name source url [17:29] opps wrong person:( [17:29] dfarning, ? Didn't get you. [17:30] kandarpk, the part we will worry about the most is the various dependancies-- build time and run time: [17:30] dipankar, i met to alert kandarpk no you a couple of mesages ago. [17:31] dipankar, did luke explain the difference between control and control.in? [17:31] dfarning, gee.. I forgot my self. Let me see the log. [17:31] :( [17:32] dipankar: you mean there is some difference, right ? [17:33] kandarpk, dipankar this part is kind of confusing. [17:33] dfarning, kandarpk : there is a difference. control file can be regenerated from a control.in file [17:33] normally when you run debbuild it uses the contents of control. [17:34] dipankar: I believe we wont require debuild in git [17:34] or is it ? [17:35] kandarpk, nope. The command for git package building is : 'git-buildpackage' [17:35] hmmm [17:36] kandarpk, till now I have never used it got git repo [17:36] but, as dipankar just pointed out when useing the debgit tool the git-buildpackage first parses the control.in to regenerate the control file. [17:37] dipankar: can you please start with how file are changed [17:38] dipankar, this give the package the ability to do some fancy abstraction at buildtime [17:38] instead of telling which commands to use [17:38] ohk. I am pasting the required IRC transcript.: http://paste.ubuntu.com/458814/. This will help a bit regarding control.in and control file [17:40] Ok. [17:41] dfarning, dipankar: how does maintaining a separate control file helps if all changes can be generated from control.in ? [17:41] dipankar, thanks I did not realize that we commited the control file too. [17:42] kandarpk, I was wondering the same thing. One traditionally does not commit stuff which can be dynamically recreated:( [17:42] dfarning, :) [17:42] kandarpk, This might help : http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-dreq.en.html [17:43] kandarpk, must be a quirk [17:44] dipankar, there is no way I will remember 'DEB_MAINTAINER_MODE=1 fakeroot debian/rules clean' two days from now:( [17:45] dfarning, dipankar: I think control.in has CDBS scripts which automatically detects dependencies [17:45] *as Luke mentioned [17:45] and then places those in control file [17:45] *wild guess [17:45] dfarning, me too, That command is ugliest I have ever seen. [17:46] dfarning: can that be a possibility ? [17:46] dipankar, I think I now under stand the difference. [17:46] kandarpk, dfarning : Actually I am very very tired right now. I might not act quickly and with full attention [17:46] :( [17:47] kandarpk, yes that sounds correct. [17:47] dipankar, do you want to start again tomowwor or monday? [17:48] and as Luke said, pushing both of them lets you know what changes were made by you, and what made by CDBS [17:48] I would like if we could set a time so kandarpk and I can both be there if possiable? I can work around your scheuddal. [17:48] dfarning, dipankar: I don't want to leave here [17:49] please just for another 25-30 minutes [17:49] dipankar, are you up for another 30 minutes:) [17:50] dfarning, kandarpk : I will try my best. [17:51] the command to regenerate the control file is shown on http://wiki.debian.org/Sugar/GettingStartedGuide [17:51] dipankar, what next:) [17:52] dfarning, we have to start off yet [17:52] :) [17:52] dipankar, dfarning : we'll need to modify only control.in ? [17:53] not quite kandarpk. We have to actually make it. [17:53] dipankar: yeah, that is what I meant [17:54] but only the control.in file, right ? [17:54] kandarpk, : yup! :) [17:54] kandarpk, dfarning : First start by moving to a suitable directory. [17:54] (in terminal) [17:55] ok, that I can do pretty well:) [17:56] :P [17:56] dfarning : :-) [17:56] dipankar: next ? [17:58] run the command: 'apt-get source sugar-logviewer-activity' [17:58] dipankar: instead of telling the commands [17:58] *that might take long [17:58] please let us know what files need changing [17:59] just as an overview [17:59] dfarning: will that be ok ? [18:00] kandarpk, actually I am guiding in setting up a local git repo in the directory using a git repo on ssh. That is crucial. [18:00] dfarning, ^^ [18:00] dipankar: Ok. [18:00] ok [18:00] sorry for interrupting [18:00] after that just some file changes and committing :) [18:00] not a problem :P [18:01] also try running 'debcheckout sugar-logviewer-activity' [18:01] see if it gives an error [18:01] apt-get source sugar-logviewer-activity didn't run [18:02] ERROR: [18:02] E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list [18:03] dipankar, kandarpk are you doing this on your normal ubuntu 10.04 machines? [18:03] dfarning: I am using Debian [18:03] dfarning, yes. I do packaging from my laptop. [18:04] *git is used for debian only ? [18:04] kandarpk, you will need to go into synatic and enable the source repos. [18:05] kandarpk, will be using it for both ubuntu and debain... with a branch for each. [18:05] dfarning: there is no sources in repositories list ... [18:06] dfarning: to add new, I'll need a URI [18:07] kandarpk, isn't there a place to tick 'sources' in synaptic -> setting -> repoitories. [18:07] dfarning: I mean, various repositories are listed, but none as sources [18:08] kandarpk, let's let dipankar go he was not feeling well yesterday [18:09] dipankar: please wrap it up then [18:09] dipankar: in say 2-3 minutes [18:09] :) [18:09] dfarning, kandarpk : The main thing here is importing the source code. [18:10] dipankar: and do tell something which keeps us busy for next hour [18:10] kandarpk, let's start this again later and all use ubuntu 10.04... so our systems are as similar as possiable. [18:10] and then setting up a local repo for the package [18:10] dipankar: setting up local hier.. will be OK [18:11] what next [18:11] ? [18:13] dfarning, kandarpk : then you have to make a control.in file with the following things: [18:13] lfaraone dipankar: then, I'd like you to clone the sugar-terminal-activity.git repository using the "git+ssh" url listed on the page you're seeing now. Edit the debian/control.in file and update the description of the package using similar text to what is used in the description of http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-calculate-activity.git;a=blob;f=debian/control.in;h=ae9a2b9989f80377c248ca774c869e0f052d7242;hb=dc85b18722eaac7f0457597a6 [18:13] a90b83 [18:14] http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/sugar-calculate-activity.git;a=blob;f=debian/control.in;h=ae9a2b9989f80377c248ca774c869e0f052d7242;hb=dc85b18722eaac7f0457597a6a90b83 [18:14] dfarning, kandarpk : use the link above for the control.in file [18:15] once you are done with the control.in file then you can commit the changes to the local repo. [18:15] ok [18:16] after that regenerate the control file from the control.in file and commit the changes again [18:16] then the final task is to push to git ssh repo [18:17] dipankar: we didn't make any changes to source code ? [18:17] dipankar, so we are just cutting and pasting the contents of the control.in for calulate to our new logviewer package. And then modifing the control.in file as necessary [18:17] kandarpk, dfarning : when I asked Luke about it, he told me that this activity is available on ubuntu server [18:18] dipankar: isn't that as if we didn't change anything [18:18] so what we are doing here is moving the activities to Debian [18:18] kandarpk, I agree with you. [18:19] dipankar: there's a difference [18:19] The task right now is to make packages according to Debian guidelines [18:19] for debian, we require control.in [18:19] dipankar: right. [18:19] kandarpk, ok so this is a case where we have already done the basic packaging work in ubuntu. now we just need to modify it slight and upload it to debain. [18:20] dfarning, You told me a couple of days back that some packages were made in shortcut and they don't follow the guidlines [18:21] dfarning, dipankar : I think control.in will check for dependencies for the package on Debian [18:21] *PS: I meant to say, after the activities are upon the Debian, then we can use it both for Debian & Ubuntu in a single go [18:21] in ubuntu we manually specified that [18:21] dipankar: am I right ? [18:22] dipankar, I would not trust any packages _I_ made, I think luke set this up and an example for us. [18:22] kandarpk, Like I said I am out of senses right now :P. I will go with what you are suggesting right now :) [18:23] I will look deeply into the control file tomorrow morning [18:23] dipankar: lets wait for luke then [18:23] he has better expertise [18:23] yup. [18:23] kandarpk: Let me ask Luke if he can join us now. [18:23] dipankar: Thank you. [18:24] Appreciate your support. [18:24] manusheel_ sir: that will help [18:24] dfarning, But your packages work don't they? [18:24] dipankar, yes they work, but they are not up to the debian standard. [18:25] dfarning: why is that ? [18:25] dfarning, that's why Luke is suggesting the changes.. [18:25] kandarpk: did you call? [18:25] bernie: hi [18:25] kandarpk: sorry that my comments reached you much later... I was offline yesterday. working from schools is HARD [18:25] thanks for being considerate [18:26] debain is very strict about enforcing certain standards for technical and legal reasons. [18:26] dfarning, thats new. [18:26] dfarning: leaving the legal reasons for now, [18:26] dfarning, I have a Debian system now too! [18:27] dfarning: how are they ( packages you make for ubuntu ) [18:27] not technically right for debian [18:27] ? [18:27] kandarpk, I just wanted to get a large set of activities available for you to see when you started using sugar... and would not be disapointed:) [18:27] manusheel sir, I guess Luke is on Mobile. He might not come on IRC [18:28] dfarning: no, I mean [18:28] kandarpk: hehe... welcome to the devian VS ubuntu diatribe [18:28] whats the difference [18:28] bernie: :) [18:28] dipankar: You are right. Luke is on mobile. [18:28] bernie, Hello. [18:29] bernie, I like this kind of fight (OS vs OS) [18:29] all, It was earlier used to Linux vs Windows. [18:29] bernie, dipankar : I am not comparing here [18:29] dipankar, bernie likes these types of arguments too.... he can go on for days. [18:30] now its Debian vs Ubuntu : and I support Ubuntu [18:30] dipankar: No. [18:30] thats not true. [18:30] dfarning, dipankar, bernie : no Ubuntu VS Debian right now [18:30] dipankar: We need to support both, and you need to be a master in both. [18:30] let me know the difference [18:30] kandarpk: be warned that, behind the technicalities of policy and quality, there's often a hidden argument of the two communities not getting along too well. [18:31] dipankar: We should not worry about Debian vs Ubuntu. We should have Sugar on both Debian and Ubuntu. [18:31] dfarning: hehe [18:31] bernie: Hi Bernie. How have you been? [18:31] manusheel: indeed [18:31] bernie : +1 [18:32] dipankar, from our point of view the only differences are debian is upstream to ubuntu and the have slightly different release cycles. [18:32] *Power cut [18:32] *will be back [18:32] manusheel: I've been working from the field for 3 days in a row, now I need two days of sleep to recover. [18:32] ubuntu releases every 6 months and debain releases less frequetly about every two years. [18:32] bernie: thats bad news for me :( [18:33] there are pros and cons to both. [18:33] kandarpk: Thats not a bad news. [18:33] wow kandarpk was so scared he dropped off [18:33] bernie: You seem to have the same lifestyle as always :-) [18:33] ;-) [18:33] Take a break. [18:33] manusheel: haha. "life". [18:33] what is it? [18:33] bernie: When are you going to Brazil? [18:34] manusheel: 8-18 Jul... but it seems I won't go to Salvador any more [18:34] dfarning, got it! [18:34] manusheel: the plane from belo horizonte was $360 so we opted for a bus to Rio [18:35] dipankar, thanks for you help I need to get some lunch [18:35] manusheel: I already feel guilty for leaving 10 days just before the final release of F11-0.88... we still have many bugs to fix [18:36] dfarning, no problem :) [18:36] We do need a stable 0.88 release. [18:36] bernie: Indeed. [18:37] dfarning, enjoy your lunch [18:37] manusheel Sir, bernie : I am heading to bed. Good night everybody! [18:37] bernie: Interesting. I hope you figured out a good bus. I remember some of our friends at MIT experimented with some Chinese bus from MIT to New York. And, they were scared with the bus routes. [18:38] dipankar: Good night Dipankar. [18:39] hi all, I missed out on anything ? [18:39] kandarpk: Glad that you are back. [18:40] dfarning: please let me know about that packaging issue [18:41] manusheel: haha I got the Fung Wa bus too... [18:42] manusheel: until cjb told me "they have a habit of catching fire on the highway"... and then we googled for it and there were indeed, like, 10 accidents some of which worse than just catching fire [18:42] such as loosing the two back wheels [18:42] bernie: Yes, friends told me that it is not safe to travel through that bus. [18:42] or crashing into the guardrail between the highway and an exit!!! [18:42] bernie: Loosing two back wheels? [18:42] :-) [18:43] manusheel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fung_Wah_Bus_Transportation#Incidents_and_accidents [18:43] lol [18:43] anuary 3, 2007: In Framingham, Massachusetts, a New York-bound bus lost its back two wheels. No injuries were reported. [9] [18:44] bernie: Looks like the buses are developed by some high school students :-) One cannot cut down costs like that. [18:44] :-) [18:44] the plane is definitely safer [18:44] kandarpk: It seems David has head for lunch. [18:44] :( [18:44] bernie: Much safer. [18:44] bernie: you like OS vs OS [18:45] kandarpk: No worries. [18:45] bernie: please explain the differences in Ubuntu and Debian [18:45] on technical grounds [18:46] bernie: Around? [18:46] manusheel: yes [18:46] bernie: Let us discuss Ubuntu vs Debian on technical grounds. [18:46] Very good question by Kandarp. [18:47] kandarpk: I like to read the OS vs OS and language VS language politics in the news... but it's not fun when you get in the middle. [18:47] kandarpk: and you can't get your job done [18:47] kandarpk: Yes, that is a very important question. Bernie, Kandarp is talking about it on the technical level. [18:47] Not at policy level. [18:48] bernie: dfarning said his packages for Ubuntuwont work on Debian [18:48] kandarpk: Where Debian does well, and where Ubuntu does well. [18:48] manusheel sir: No [18:48] bernie: We are interested in Sugar on Debian and Sugar on Ubuntu. [18:48] kandarpk: Ok. [18:48] right now I only want to know why dfarning's packages wont work on Debian [18:49] kandarpk: Ok, great. bernie, do you have an answer on this? [18:49] kandarpk, my packages probably would work on debian. [18:50] dfarning: Ok, yours would [18:50] kandarpk, I just didn't cross all of the tee and dot all of the eyes so that they would be accepted. [18:51] but where is Debian so strict ? [18:51] the source codes ? [18:51] kandarpk, my package were very rough drafts. But you would not want to hand them in. [18:51] or the dependencies ? [18:52] kandarpk, I'll try to answer that in an email this afternoon. [18:52] dfarning: that will be great [18:52] dfarning: thanks a lot [18:53] The dynamics are confusing [18:54] kandarpk: I don't know the details, but ABI and API issues, probably. [18:55] kandarpk: Ubuntu and Debian diverged quite a lot in the past, and there doesn't seem to be a tendency to realign one or the other on the same versions of libraries and critical system daemons. [18:55] bernie: that means they differ on the dependencies ? [18:55] sources are almost same. [18:56] kandarpk: so, for example, ubuntu uses Upstart while Debian still uses sysvinit (unless I'm out of date). which means that daemons need to install their startup script in different places! [18:57] kandarpk: in general, debian is more conservative. they ship older versions of libraries and they tend not to jump on modern new subsystems as quick as ubuntu does [18:57] kandarpk: from the "plumbing" point of view, Ubuntu today resembles more Fedora than Debian: pulseaudio, udev, udisks, networkmanager, libvirt, packagekit, rsyslog, upstart, latest Xorg, etc. [18:58] dfarning, bernie : its a bit confusing right now [18:58] dfarning's mail will help [18:59] kandarpk: in other words, it's not really clear any more which project is downstream and which is upstream. Ubuntu now has newer stuff than debian almost at every level, so the flow has started to go backwards. [18:59] Ok. [18:59] kandarpk: that is, several packages get imported from ubuntu into debian nowadays. [19:00] bernie: yeah, I understand that [19:01] (which tends to piss off people who were accustomed to the opposite work-flow) [19:01] bernie: David said that it was very difficult to get packages at Ubuntu. [19:01] *at Debian [19:02] manusheel: besides this gossip, I have to admit I don't have much hands-on experience getting packages accepted both in Debian and Ubuntu [19:02] bernie: What should be the good strategy in general? [19:02] bernie: Ok. [19:02] manusheel: historically, it used to be the case that becoming a debian maintainer was one of the hardest achievements of a hacker's career. it might have changed now :-) [19:03] bernie: Ok, we'll have to get into the field and realize that. [19:03] bernie: In any case, we are looking at both Sugar on Ubuntu and Sugar on Debian. So, we need to be proficient in both. [19:03] bernie: is that because Debian has become soft ? [19:04] bernie: Which means, whether it is syncing packages from Debian to Ubuntu or the other way round. [19:04] manusheel: the debian maintainer for sugar is still jonas? [19:04] manusheel: who's the ubuntu maintainer? nobody? [19:04] bernie: becoming a Debian Developer, you mean. [19:05] bernie: Right. He is the maintainer. We'll have to work with him in these regards. [19:05] lfaraone: Hi [19:05] kandarpk: lfaraone would know, he just became a debian maintainer [19:05] bernie: it still is a very rigorous process. [19:05] lfaraone: ah, are the two things different? [19:05] bernie: And, are happy to do so. [19:05] bernie: Debian Developer > Debian Maintainer. [19:05] * lfaraone is in town for a few minutes :)( [19:05] ?away [19:06] lfaraone: Great. [19:06] How has been your trip? [19:06] bernie: DMs are people who can upload certain packages that have been marked as "DM-Upload-Allowed: yes" and have the DM listed in "uploaders" or "maintainer" [19:06] manusheel: it's been pretty great. [19:06] lfaraone: Wonderful. [19:07] bernie: DDs can technically upload any package they wish. DDs can also vote in the project, and are full Debian members. [19:07] lfaraone: Kandarp had questions on packaging. [19:07]