[18:05] <LucidFox> See, I actually did try pitching that patch here, but nobody replied
[18:12] <kenvandine> hey LucidFox
[18:12] <kenvandine> hadn't seen you over here yet
[18:12] <kenvandine> tedg isn't online atm... he should be back soon
[18:12] <kenvandine> probably at lunch
[18:13] <kenvandine> LucidFox, he is the main appindicator guy and also a heavy liferea user
[18:13] <kenvandine> so probably happy to see your patch :)
[18:13] <LucidFox> Okay!
[18:15] <LucidFox> I just wonder how it escaped everyone, what with it being tagged with trayaway, subscribed by ubuntu-sponsors, written about on Planet Ubuntu and Omg! Ubuntu, and also linked from that list on the wiki trayaway page
[18:16] <LucidFox> But well, better late than never :)
[18:19] <kenvandine> hehe
[18:19] <kenvandine> well, not sure :)
[18:20] <kenvandine> jcastro, fyi ^^
[18:20] <kenvandine> jcastro, was liferea on your list?
[18:20] <jcastro> ted was tracking it iirc.
[18:20] <jcastro> is there a bug?
[18:21] <jcastro> odd, ted was tracking it because he was the one whining about it all UDS.
[18:22] <LucidFox> jcastro> About liferea?
[18:22] <jcastro> yeah
[18:22] <jcastro> LucidFox: can you link me to the bug?
[18:23] <LucidFox> bug #540490
[18:24] <LucidFox> er
[18:24] <LucidFox> wrong one
[18:24] <LucidFox> weird
[18:24] <vish> bug #540490
[18:24] <LucidFox> the link is correct and points to the Liferea bug, but ubot5 acted up
[18:24] <vish> hmm , bot gone crazy!
[18:25] <vish> jcastro: https://launchpad.net/bugs/540490
[18:25] <jcastro> ugh, how did we miss that
[18:26] <jcastro> nigelb: can you put someone from reviews on that patch?
[18:27] <nigelb> jcastro: I'll get to it :)
[18:27] <jcastro> hero
[18:27] <jcastro> LucidFox: thanks for bringing it to our attention
[18:27] <jcastro> kenvandine: Lesson learned here is to never trust ted when he says "I got it"
[18:28] <nigelb> heh
[18:28] <LucidFox> oh blimey
[18:28] <jcastro> I saw it on omgubuntu and all that stuff, but I was like "oh that should make ted happy."
[18:29] <LucidFox> in the time it took for that patch to be noticed, someone already got -1ubuntu2 uploaded :)
[18:29] <LucidFox> so this will have to be at least -1ubuntu3
[18:29] <jcastro> speaking of app indicators, nigelb, fagan owes me a patch for deluge
[18:29] <jcastro> as he said he would work on it
[18:30] <jcastro> so if you see him bug him about it. :D
[18:30] <nigelb> jcastro: I will :)
[18:30] <nigelb> jcastro: this is something that a reviewer can only say "forwarded upstream" but they dont want it yet
[18:31] <nigelb> so I'm leaving the decision to you folks to get it in
[18:32] <jcastro> kenvandine: we never sorted about universe apps for app indicators, can you bring it up with seb? sounds like a good opportunity for a new contributor to get that in.
[18:33] <LucidFox> Speaking of upstreams, I tried to pitch that Liferea patch to upstream, but they said they weren't interested in Ubuntu-specific functionality.
[18:33] <LucidFox> "We'll wait until it becomes a standard part of GNOME"
[18:35] <nigelb> I think indicator stuff can go right in once tested and this patch has been extensively tested
[18:36] <nigelb> but jcastro, you're call ;)
[18:36] <nigelb> *your
[18:36] <jcastro> LucidFox: the best you can do in that case is offer the patch.
[18:36] <jcastro> we've made it so people can fall back to the old tray so people can use them and not worry about breaking distros with the tray
[18:37]  * LucidFox nods
[18:38] <jcastro> also, it's not ubuntu-specific, it's basically KDE technology
[18:38] <jcastro> so app authors can use one thing for both. 
[18:38] <LucidFox> Well, this is the messaging indicator, not the app indicator.
[18:38] <LucidFox> But this patch does fall back to the tray
[18:38] <jcastro> I think GNOME has different plans for GNOME3.
[18:38] <jcastro> oh, right, sorry
[18:38] <jcastro> yeah, I can see that being an issue for people
[18:38] <jcastro> sorry I am mixed up today
[18:38] <LucidFox> While I'm here, any plans for making notify-osd configurable?
[18:39] <jcastro> I saw a tool somewhere to make it configurable
[18:39] <LucidFox> There was a third-party app using a patched version of notify-osd, but I don't think text config files in the home directory are the way to go
[18:39] <LucidFox> so I'm wondering if it was made unconfigurable for ideological reasons
[18:39] <jcastro> design reasons really.
[18:42] <kenvandine> vish, those adium-theme-ubuntu patches you gave me the link to yesterday
[18:42] <kenvandine> vish, i think design should review those
[18:42] <LucidFox> Design reasons?
[18:43] <vish> kenvandine: the patch to make empathy not scroll too?
[18:43] <kenvandine> yeah
[18:43] <jcastro> LucidFox: check on the ayatana list archives for the discussion, sorry I have to go, font launching. :D
[18:43] <kenvandine> that is still a usability thing... mpt or someone should look at that
[18:44] <LucidFox> so there's no chance it gets at least some options configurable via gconf or something?
[18:44] <vish> hmm , mpt is on vacation,
[18:44] <kenvandine> or dseigel
[18:44] <vish> kenvandine: who can be poked? david?
[18:44] <vish> :)
[18:44] <kenvandine> yeah
[18:44] <kenvandine> someone with more UX experience than me :)
[18:45] <vish> sure , will do that ;)
[18:45] <kenvandine> let them review them, and i can handle getting them uploaded as needed
[18:46] <vish> kenvandine: neat , thanks.
[18:50] <LucidFox> ubuntu-font-beta-testing?
[18:50] <vish> kenvandine: this one has a branch too , and it was working earlier but somehow got missed during gwibber upgrades : Bug #317056  , could you check it out :)
[18:50] <vish> thanks :)
[18:50] <kenvandine> LucidFox,  http://design.canonical.com/2010/07/the-ubuntu-font/
[18:51] <LucidFox> oh, neat
[18:51] <LucidFox> will it replace DejaVu as the UI font?
[18:52] <kenvandine> LucidFox, i have no details :)
[18:52] <kenvandine> just the blog post
[18:52] <kenvandine> vish, i set a milestone on that so it doesn't get forgotten
[18:52] <kenvandine> vish, thx
[18:52] <vish> kenvandine: great , thanks :)
[18:54] <hyperair> hmm why is it a private PPA?
[18:54] <hyperair> these things should be open to public imo
[18:56] <vish> hyperair: its for ubuntu members , so that it can be tested before full release
[18:56] <hyperair> vish: yeah, i'm just wondering why it's not open for non-ubuntu-members.
[18:56] <vish> hyperair: it was discussed in the UDS , they want to make sure there are no problems before making a public release. once it is released there is no pulling back
[18:56] <jcastro> font foundries are very closed by default
[18:56] <jcastro> the distribution needs to be limited
[18:57] <jcastro> (you'll find other fonts in the past that are open now like bitstream, droid, etc. didn't have public betas at all)
[19:00] <hyperair> jcastro: but why?
[19:00] <hyperair> E: The method driver /usr/lib/apt/methods/https could not be found.
[19:00] <hyperair> hmmm
[19:00] <jcastro> he sort of explains in the video
[19:00] <hyperair> now what =\
[19:00] <jcastro> oh, make sure you have apt-https-transport installed
[19:01] <hyperair> er, doesn't seem to exist.
[19:01] <jcastro> apt-transport-https I mean
[19:01] <jcastro> (I thought we installed that by default?)
[19:02] <hyperair> my karmic->lucid upgrade screwed up halfway
[19:02] <jcastro> installing that should sort it
[19:02] <hyperair> yeah installing now
[19:04] <LucidFox> ...NDA fonts?
[19:04] <LucidFox> Are they bloody kidding
[19:05] <LucidFox> Well, that's Canonical, I guess... proprietary development platform, proprietary sync service, and now proprietary fonts
[19:07] <jcastro> the font will be open
[19:07] <thorwil> LucidFox: a half-closed beta doesn't make/leave the font proprietary.
[19:08] <hyperair> thorwil: the question is, why even make it half-closed?
[19:08] <hyperair> we don't make our ubuntu betas closed betas, so why should we make our fonts closed betas?
[19:08] <jcastro> jcastro | font foundries are very closed by default  
[19:08] <thorwil> hyperair: i think the concern is that fully public released fonts tend to develope a live of their own. they spread
[19:09] <hyperair> thorwil: and what's wrong with that?
[19:09] <thorwil> and that's ugly if you still want to revise it
[19:10] <jcastro> LucidFox: what's proprietary about ubuntu's development platform?
[19:10] <LucidFox> okay, Launchpad *was* proprietary
[19:10] <LucidFox> Ubuntu One still is and I don't see it changing in the future
[19:10] <hyperair> u1 is such wonderful stuff that it refuses to log in, or sync for me ^_^
[19:11] <thorwil> dropbox > u1
[19:11] <hyperair> thorwil: agreed.
[19:11] <LucidFox> dropbox is also proprietary, but the difference is, it's not made by Canonical and doesn't have Ubuntu in its name
[19:12] <hyperair> and, it works!
[19:12] <hyperair> and doesn't use that miserable couch shit.
[19:13] <thorwil> i found it to be reliable where u1 wasn't
[19:14] <hyperair> to be fair, there isn't a dropbox music store
[19:15] <LucidFox> Bah, music store
[19:16] <hyperair> lol
[19:16] <LucidFox> Never understood them, but then I'm not a music type
[19:16] <LucidFox> (not that I'd use one even if I was, no way I'm paying for air)
[19:16]  * hyperair nods
[19:17] <LucidFox> is there *any* file synchronization service with an open source server side?
[19:17] <jcastro> ifolder
[19:17] <jcastro> sparkleshare
[19:18] <hyperair> honestly speaking, i don't really give a damn about whether web services are open source or not.
[19:18] <hyperair> i won't be able to make the changes freely anyway
[19:18] <hyperair> since i'm not the one running the service.
[19:20] <hyperair> bah https. i can't use apt-cacher-ng =(
[19:21] <jcastro> if you used squid-deb-proxy you would be rocking. :D
[19:22] <hyperair> jcastro: how does it handle ssl?
[19:22] <hyperair> jcastro: does it perform ssl unravelling and use its own certificate or something?
[19:22] <jcastro> it doesn't cache it, but it doesn't error either
[19:22] <hyperair> but caching is the whole point!
[19:22] <hyperair> my apt-conf prevents it from erroring out
[19:22] <jcastro> ah
[19:23] <jcastro> yeah but other than private repos what would you SSL apt for?
[19:23] <hyperair> Acquire::http::Proxy "DIRECT";
[19:23] <hyperair> nothing, but it'd help for multiple computers =\
[19:27] <vish> hmm , something is making my eye hurt .. thats odd :s
[19:28] <hyperair> it reminds me a little of comic sans
[19:28] <vish> hyperair: huh! comic sans! 
[19:28] <hyperair> =\
[19:28] <hyperair> really
[19:31] <hyperair> it looks like a slightly smalle comic sans
[20:32] <Kangarooo> hello can i get answer why Transmission right click is in left click place?
[20:33] <Kangarooo> ive read theres some serious decision for that
[20:34] <vish> Kangarooo:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators
[20:36] <Kangarooo> yes ive tryd searching in there left and can find only 2x left in there and in sentences they are doesnt say transmission now need to change its behaviour or that its really needed to be changed. also i dont see that right click which everbody has been using is bad.
[20:38] <vish> Kangarooo: http://design.canonical.com/2010/04/notification-area/ , 
[20:42] <Kangarooo> im not using Ubuntu. im using Xubuntu that idea about making some new indication panel witch to open i need one more click (time waste) wont be for me. i also wont want that.. so now every programm will be different couse for different distro theres one new place saving and time wasting applet witch needs menu come out of different click.. is microsoft specially making theese ideas for ubuntu?
[20:42] <jcastro> if your tray or whatever doesn't use app indicators then it should fall back to the old way
[20:42] <jcastro> if it doesn't do that then that's a bug
[20:44] <Kangarooo> yes and in Bug 524179 (witch has 5 added dubliccates and 2 more not added dublicates) one guy gives link to this 1st link and then another one makes this bug wont fix and also another one makes bug from Transmision to Ubuntu.
[20:46] <jcastro> that bug should probably be filed against xubuntu instead
[20:46] <jcastro> and reopened there
[20:47] <jcastro> do you have a screenshot of what it looks like in xubuntu?
[20:47] <Kangarooo> yes btw i just made it to report bug and i see many dublicates
[20:49] <Kangarooo> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-286.php
[20:51] <jcastro> I suspect that the fallback to the old way is broken
[20:51] <jcastro> kklimonda: any idea?
[20:53] <Kangarooo> if for that app that makes all in one button needs to have other way then in that app needs to be coded that it makes it other way.. why all apps need to change that behaviour?
[20:55] <jcastro> I don't understand your question
[20:57] <kklimonda> jcastro: the problem is that's how appindicator works - even if application-indicator isn't there the GtkStatusIcon that is being "emulated" behaves just like menu in application-indicator. I think that's how all applications we have changed in lucid behave.
[20:57] <jcastro> I thought the point of the library was to have a fallback?
[20:58] <kklimonda> jcastro: and it provides a fallback - it just behaves just like menu in appindicator area, it doesn't restore the original behaviour.
[20:59] <jcastro> oh I see
[21:00] <jcastro> kklimonda: any idea what happens on other distros?
[21:01] <kklimonda> I agree that it's suboptimal but the best approach isn't easy one and maybe we could create a better API that makes it possible for application to fallback to its own menu that behaves like everywhere else.. something like app_indicator_present () that we could check at the runtime and not at the compilation time.
[21:01]  * jcastro nods
[21:02] <jcastro> eggs broken on the path to the consistant omelette I suppose
[21:02] <kklimonda> jcastro: if other distributions use appindicator they have the same problem.
[21:02] <kklimonda> indeed
[21:02] <kklimonda> tedg: would it be possible to make check at the runtime instead?
[21:02] <kklimonda> tedg: to check if application-indicator is present and if not use the default GtkStatusIcon and not fallback provided by appindicator.
[21:03] <tedg> kklimonda, It does fallback at runtime if there is no appindicator area.  It is uses GtkStatusIcon.
[21:03] <tedg> kklimonda, Heh, exactly :)
[21:04] <tedg> kklimonda, By default we use the menu we've been given, but some applications provide different fallbacks by subclassing and replacing the fallback/unfallback functions.
[21:04] <tedg> kklimonda, We also provide a signal, but I think subclassing is easier.
[21:06] <kklimonda> tedg: but that would mean we would have to write even more code and stuff it into all applications that, for example, use left mouse button to hide/show window, right? As much as we may not agree with this behaviour it is something people are used to and currently there is no way of getting it back without recompiling source code.
[21:07] <tedg> kklimonda, It should be just shuffling code that already exists.  But, in reality, there is nothing consistent in applications for us to build on.  We can really only fallback with what data we have.
[21:09] <kklimonda> tedg: but we could do a test.. lets say in app_indicator_init (). Make it return null and then application can just reuse its own menu, mouse button behaviour and everything else they like.
[21:09] <tedg> kklimonda, It's async though.
[21:09] <kklimonda> bah
[21:10] <jcastro> cody tells me someone from xfce is looking at app indicators/KSNI but I don't know how far along that is
[21:10] <jcastro> that's the "real fix" anyway. :D
[21:10] <tedg> jcastro, They should just be able to use Mark__T's work on the indicator stuff and use our app indicator loader I believe.
[21:13] <kklimonda> jcastro: but that will still leave us with different behaviour and no way back to the upstream one, right? And Kangarooo's question wasn't really "hey, that's not an application indicator" but "why does it behave different than what I'm used to". On the other hand we could stand our ground and push the standard implemented by appindicator. That may make sense in a longer run.
[21:14] <jcastro> I agree with you
[21:14] <Kangarooo> +2
[21:15] <jcastro> there's nothing really stopping anyone from maintaining the old behavior in a PPA or something
[21:15]  * kklimonda nods
[21:18] <kklimonda> tedg: even app_indicator_init is async call? /me got curious :)
[21:18] <tedg> kklimonda, It's not, but the detection of the service is.  So it doesn't fallback until after it checks.
[21:19] <kklimonda> ah, I see now.
[21:20] <Kangarooo> also i believe that in Ubuntu also its possible to make that new one click app not work in Ubuntu? then also thouse buttons should be as they were..
[21:33] <Kangarooo> whats the name of programm that looks like bug icon in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=disaster.png ?
[23:43] <ScottK> http://kitterman.com/kubuntu/appmenu1.jpeg