[06:26] <troy_s> vish: Greets friend.
[06:51] <doctormo> What are people's thoughts on this: http://imagebin.ca/view/DeckTaz.html
[08:10] <vish> troy_s: howdy! how have you been?
[08:11] <troy_s> vish: Little teeny busy. Yourself?
[08:11] <troy_s> vish: (read ridiculously busy in small print)
[08:12] <vish> same here, busy...
[08:12] <troy_s> vish: Yourself?
[08:12] <vish> the UW logo seems to have some out well :)
[08:12] <troy_s> vish: What have you been up to?
[08:13] <vish> troy_s: bah , i'v been tasked with running the papercuts project and it is more work than i anticipated o.0
[08:14] <troy_s> vish: Who dumped it on you?
[08:14] <troy_s> vish: Rather ridiculous..
[08:15] <vish> not dumped.. but the usual way.. i ask too many Questions and got tasked to run it!
[08:15] <vish> i blame myself ;p
[08:15] <troy_s> vish: Well. Uh. I don't know what to say. A learning experience perhaps. Unfortunate as it may be.
[08:16] <troy_s> vish: Why isn't the individual that started it rolling with it?
[08:16] <vish> troy_s: well , they got busy with newer shinier projects.
[08:16] <troy_s> vish: Gee... how... shocking.
[08:17] <vish> oh , got new drivers for my webcam from the author.. need to test ..
[08:19] <troy_s> vish: Anything new in Ubuntuville?
[08:19] <vish> troy_s: well , "Unity" thing has been the talk of the town...
[08:20] <troy_s> vish: The lady doth protest too much.
[08:20] <vish> ;)
[08:20] <troy_s> vish: "THIS IS NOT A DOCK"
[08:20] <troy_s> vish: Ugh.
[08:20] <troy_s> vish: Anyways, onto other things.
[08:21] <vish> troy_s: as i keep saying this.. that is what you get when you have all the devs of Dock variants working in one place ;)
[08:22] <troy_s> vish: There is a fascinating conundrum there. Individually the vast bulk of the folks are quite brilliant. In tandem, there seems to be a distinct lack of actual moodboarding and development.
[08:22] <troy_s> vish: It ends up either 'Oh look, dock it.' or the ever more prevalent desktop proper's "Put it in a menu."
[08:23] <vish> troy_s: on the bright side though , Unity is not complete.. so new ideas can always be introduced.. read as: waiting for your ideas :)
[08:23] <troy_s> vish: No need for ideas. There are likely way too many already.
[08:24] <vish> troy_s: nah , nothing solid yet. sabdfl is still looking and i dont see a good solid concept in place yet
[08:24] <troy_s> vish: I'd love to see some context driven design work on tablet interfaces for graphics work. Might be an interesting side project.
[08:24] <vish> other than unity being a docky with mutter
[08:24] <troy_s> vish: You can't happen upon a 'good' design without defining failure and success.
[08:24] <troy_s> vish: So many projects lack vision - the unavoidable dots that connect the audience with the need.
[08:25] <troy_s> vish: Not exactly an easy task. All the money in the world can't buy it. (See Microsoft - Metro notwithstanding which is utterly beautifully executed by and large)
[08:25] <vish> troy_s: exactly , vision lacks in several. but targetting "netbooks" allows us to narrow down the user base and get some concepts working
[08:26] <troy_s> vish: And yet designed in what context? Too many guessers.
[08:26] <troy_s> vish: Is it fingers? Is it stylus? The iPhone was a feat of design purely because it is entirely contextual.
[08:26] <vish> didnt understand the Q^ ?
[08:27] <troy_s> vish: Not some random guesses. Tablet design is another good analogy. Ever try to get a tooltip using an Intuos? There are native design constraints to each format.
[08:27] <troy_s> vish: Pick a scope. Is it a finger? Is it a mouse? Don't do both or suffer half assedness.
[08:27] <vish> ah..
[08:28] <vish> troy_s: why i mention this is , folks like you who have been trying to hammer concept driven models , this is the right time to get some ideas/concepts implemented
[08:29] <vish> troy_s: if you see the ayatan ML , it is random gibberish and nit-picking over the "right" words ..with no solid ideas.
[08:29] <troy_s> vish: I don't believe so to be honest. Mark has a strong will. Who is anyone to suggest he is incorrect? No one else has made a billion US. It's the old cross discipline dilemma. Look at who reviews art and design related things on Ars for example...
[08:30] <vish> heh
[08:31] <troy_s> vish: There are no solutions and no 'best', 'better', 'good', 'beautiful'. No one in our culture likes to hear that.
[08:31] <troy_s> vish: Until you define those blasted contexts.
[08:31] <vish> right
[08:32] <vish> troy_s: well you can do that now, i do think there is a chance now , there is now an exponentially more chance in defining the contexts and getting solutions , since Unity is a fresh start
[08:33] <vish> troy_s: there are things that are changing.. for example ideas around not entirely depending on nautilus
[08:33] <vish> for file management..
[08:33] <troy_s> vish: But where does that really take us?
[08:34] <vish> troy_s: we can get something better than Metro... or atleast try.
[08:34] <troy_s> vish: Metro is pretty damn compelling and it has a very clear audience.
[08:35] <troy_s> vish: Not so certain Mr. Shuttleworth would make such a commitment.
[08:35] <vish> troy_s: but alteast now , you have a better chance.. and might be the only chance ;)
[08:36] <troy_s> vish: I'm quite impressed with some of Marcus' work. I worry a little on the typeface stuff, but alas...
[08:37] <vish> yeah ,some of the work is pretty neat..
[08:37] <thorwil> morning!
[08:37] <vish> troy_s: did you watch the dalton maag session?
[08:38] <vish> thorwil: morn!
[08:38] <troy_s> vish: Yes.
[08:38] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[08:38] <thorwil> hi troy_s
[08:38] <troy_s> vish: I'd have likely hired Nick Shin, but I'm biased.
[08:38] <troy_s> ;)
[08:39] <troy_s> vish: To be honest though, I'm not sure what the brief looked like.
[08:39] <troy_s> vish: And I worry a little that the display face was chosen as the core for the type selection. Seems... well... ugh.
[08:39] <vish> troy_s: well, i'v been using the beta fonts , I'm not very impressed by the new fonts though :(
[08:39] <troy_s> vish: Rather again like Apple setting their work in Chicago - just yikes.
[08:40] <troy_s> vish: Make no mistake, the new identity type (inverted u and n notwithstanding) is leagues tighter than the old bulbous thing.
[08:40] <thorwil> the ubuntu font does not work to well for body text and it's hard to find a good match to use it only for headings and such
[08:40] <vish> troy_s: for title/logo i dont think it is wrong.. however , i dont find them very readable
[08:41] <vish> they are running too close and too crowded
[08:41] <troy_s> thorwil: I got to say that the whole premise of sans with the dawn of high density displays seems... erm... committed.
[08:41] <troy_s> vish: The n and u oopsie is goofy, but leagues better than old.
[08:41] <troy_s> vish: For body it is ... ugh. Again... someone somewhere has hobgoblin's consistency.
[08:45] <vish> thorwil: before you logged in i was telling troy_s that this was probably the best time to get some concept driven models in Unity.. and how the ayatana ML is more nitpicking about trivial words and such
[08:46] <troy_s> vish: As I said - there are no shortage of 'good ideas'.
[08:46] <troy_s> vish: It all amounts to noise.
[08:48] <vish> troy_s: nah , unfortunately there surely is a shortage...   :(  , or people with ideas arent around here..
[08:48] <thorwil> vish: most farther reaching concepts i've seen have been light on the "why?" and actually were more about shuffling things around
[08:49] <troy_s> vish: Uh... pretty sure you aren't looking. :) God knows every cat and their dog has barfed up a mockup or idea or #izusable or #fittslaw or #hickslaw thing.
[08:50] <vish> troy_s: heh yeah , fitts law for buttons! ;p
[08:50] <vish> oh noes , they got stuck there !
[08:51] <troy_s> vish: Point is... I think it is entirely difficult for our current culture to wrap a collective head around the idea that art and design is an extremely nebulous beast. Mired in culture and a boatload of other things. And the moment you suggest that you are designing to context, the alarmbells ring out with worries of exclusion (despite the reality that 'everyone' is exclusion no matter how hard you try)
[08:52] <vish> thorwil: true.. its only been about shuffling.. we can probably start a casino with all the talent :D
[08:52] <thorwil> heh
[08:52] <troy_s> vish: Who exactly is all on that team? Neil?
[08:53] <vish> troy_s: David is the lead designer for Unity , the rest are hackers
[08:53] <vish> Neil included
[08:53] <troy_s> vish: Wait a minute... so a guy with no art and design background is the lead?
[08:53] <troy_s> vish: Did I just read that?
[08:53] <vish> :)
[08:53] <troy_s> vish: Seriously? You wonder why we are in this bloody gongshow.
[08:53] <thorwil> vish: and if you push out something like http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/04/10/event-to-action-mapping-1/  all you get is one or two persons stating it would be nice and someone else asking for a proof-of-concept implementation
[08:54] <troy_s> vish: Enuf said. The apples don't fall far.
[08:54] <vish> troy_s: who did you expect was the lead for Unity?
[08:55] <troy_s> vish: No clue. I would have deferred at least to Neil.
[08:55] <troy_s> vish: But if that is true, it's a bloody mockery.
[08:55] <vish> troy_s: you are referring to Neil J Patel? he doesnt have an art/design background either , iirc
[08:57] <troy_s> vish: All things being equal (which it appears as such) I'd still err on that side.
[09:01] <vish> thorwil: hehe , probably less feedback. because it has a lot to read and no pretty pictures? :D
[09:01] <vish> pretty pictures seem to attract more comments ;p
[09:01] <troy_s> vish: So have you been up to anything personal work wise?
[09:02]  * vish brb , rebooting.. new drivers
[09:02] <vish> troy_s: nothing new personally..
[09:02] <vish> brb
[09:08] <vish> gah ! these are even worse...
[09:08] <troy_s> vish: LOL. Regression? Never.
[09:09] <thorwil> vish: what "these"?
[09:09] <vish> troy_s: nah , the webcam never had proper driver support , had filed a bug. finally  the author contacted and he is working on the traces
[09:10] <vish> thorwil: webcam drivers
[09:10] <vish> thorwil: oh , you joined late :)
[09:10] <vish> i'v tried like 10 different version of the drivers.. kudo to the author though :)
[09:11] <vish> he has been sending me new ones and I keep saying.. nope didnt work :p
[09:24] <vish> the webcam authors are amazing! the webcam drivers are closed source and they literally have nothing to work from. so how they get the drivers for Linux is basically they see the windows drivers and they are guessing what each function can be..
[09:25] <vish> must require a lot of patience.. o.0
[10:21] <darkmatter> actually, most of them reverse engineer stuff :P
[12:16] <vish> reverse engineer or forward engineer..... whichever.... it really seems to require a lot of patience ;p
[12:18] <vish> and guesswork.. ;)
[12:36] <thorwil> kwwii, vish: finally: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/ubuntu-mini-remix-logo/  note that i'm using the beta font, but i will make sure to replace it, if the final font will render noticeable different
[15:32] <troy_s> Greets all.
[17:05] <thorwil> yo troy_s
[17:05] <troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
[17:06] <thorwil> 36°C make it hard to think here
[17:06] <thorwil> arg
[17:06] <troy_s> thorwil: CRAP DOES OUR SOFTWARE SUCK
[17:06] <troy_s> Oops I said that out loud.
[17:07] <thorwil> troy_s: heh, how was that not a user error? ;)
[17:08] <troy_s> thorwil: The Pidgin "Oh you are trying to close a tab? Ok let me reopen that for you. Oh you try to shut down that tab window? I'll hang for you. You had better gracefully quit to fix it now before I lock up on you."
[17:08] <thorwil> oh well, found irc in pidgin so horrible, i don't even think of trying it again
[17:09] <troy_s> thorwil: It's about the only client that I have seen that keeps windows logged in for IRC (with IM etc.)
[17:10] <thorwil> besides a few cosmetic fixes, all i'm missing in xchat would some kind of aggregative channel, automatically delivering messages from the channel it currently is at
[17:11] <thorwil> troy_s: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/ubuntu-mini-remix-logo/
[17:12] <thorwil> the ubuntu font "m" bothers me a bit, but when i recently tried to draw a few characters in a similar style, i had to notice that the "m" can be really hard
[17:12] <troy_s> thorwil: For better or for worse, the likelihood that you could trump Dalton Maag is low.
[17:13] <troy_s> thorwil: As much as I can't say that I believe that firm to have body copy as a strong point. May have wanted to hire someone that designs newsprint faces.
[17:13] <troy_s> ;)
[17:14] <thorwil> troy_s: yeah, but do you see some uneasy leftward movement/lean, or is that just me?
[17:14] <troy_s> thorwil: Not really. Maybe you are keying on the optical flare out? No clue really.
[17:15] <troy_s> thorwil: But I can't say I have looked at it as it is a private repository etc.
[17:15] <troy_s> thorwil: And my desire to become an Ubuntuite is ... well let's say low.
[17:16] <thorwil> troy_s: heh, your writing is more appropriate from the sidelines :)
[17:17] <troy_s> thorwil: Well that's one way of looking at it. More irrelevant is how I prefer to coin it.
[17:17] <troy_s> lol
[17:18] <troy_s> thorwil: What have you been up to?
[17:20] <thorwil> troy_s: have been fighting with google app engine and dns. http://www.thorsten-wilms.com/ is supposed to work, but doesn't
[17:20] <troy_s> thorwil: Uh... maybe give up and move onto more productive adventures? lol.
[17:21] <thorwil> troy_s: https://thorsten-wilms.appspot.com/ is a glimpse of what is to come. (i'm not happy with that header anymore, will see rework)
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: What do you intend to host there?
[17:22] <thorwil> troy_s: central aspect is a better portfolio, but long term it should also be a blog and documentation center
[17:24] <thorwil> my wordpress blog just isn't well suited to show to (potential) clients and a bit of coding might help me retain a little sanity