[01:13]  * jenkins really should ask brandonj about those fish
[01:36] <jenkins> night all
[07:59] <hannie> The Dutch translation team have translated 50% of the manual
[13:11] <daker> hello @all
[13:12] <daker> hello EgyParadox
[13:12] <daker> EgyParadox, Arabic ?
[13:12] <EgyParadox> Yes
[13:12] <daker> nice
[13:12] <EgyParadox> I cant speak Arabic here I believe.
[13:13] <daker> english pls, so everyone can understand you
[13:14] <daker> Are you working on the translations ?
[13:14]  * daker want an arabic version of the manual
[13:15] <EgyParadox> Actually I havent started yet.
[13:16] <EgyParadox> But I have read through the manual, I really liked it, I am currently busy actually.
[13:16] <daker> what i suggest it that we make a team to translate the 10.10 manual's
[13:17] <daker> brb
[13:53] <EgyParadox> daker:Back, actually there is a team who is currently responsible for translating
[13:53] <daker> arabic translations ?
[13:54] <EgyParadox> daker:Yes
[13:57] <daker> ah no do i mean a team that is focused on translating just the manual
[13:58]  * daker is going to the beach
[14:05] <daker> see ya
[17:29] <humphreybc> If i'm not in the meeting tomorrow, it means i've slept through it
[17:29] <humphreybc> i'll try to be there though :P
[20:27] <daker> hi
[20:27] <daker> the meeting will be in ?
[20:28] <godbyk> The meeting will be in here in 30 minutes.
[20:29] <nisshh> i new there was a reason i stayed up till 4am tonight :)
[20:32] <daker> where jenkins ?
[20:32] <daker> is
[20:33] <nisshh> dunno
[20:34] <nisshh> he was definitely going to be here, im sure he will turn up
[20:34] <nisshh> i hope some doc team guys and stuff turn up
[20:34] <nisshh> otherwise this meeting is useless
[20:35]  * zkriesse is here
[20:36] <nisshh> zkriesse: yay, we are all saved! ;)
[20:36] <zkriesse> lol
[20:37]  * zkriesse feels awesome then
[20:37] <zkriesse> oh crap
[20:37] <zkriesse> gotta go for just a few
[20:37] <j1mc> i'm here from the doc team
[20:37] <zkriesse> meeting is in 30 minutes though right?
[20:37] <j1mc> zkriesse: 23 min from now, but yeah
[20:37] <zkriesse> ok cool
[20:37] <zkriesse> I should be back by then
[20:38] <j1mc> i hope people don't mind that i moved the stuff from the etherpad over to the wiki
[20:38] <j1mc> we had so much info on the wiki, i thought it'd be best to keep it in one spot
[20:41] <zkriesse> awesome
[20:41] <zkriesse> linky?
[20:41] <daker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center
[20:41] <zkriesse> thank you good sir
[20:42] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center
[20:42] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center/meetings too
[20:48] <daker> meeting in 12min
[20:53] <nisshh> surely more than one person from the docs team?
[20:53] <nisshh> oh geez
[20:53] <daker> meeting in 7min
[20:53] <j1mc> well, i've been the one writing most about it
[20:53] <ChrisWoollard> Maybe they will be fashionably late :)
[20:54] <ChrisWoollard> Or even on time
[20:54] <nisshh> hehe
[20:55] <nisshh> j1mc: well, at least someone from the docs team showed up, last time no one did
[20:55] <doctormo> well learning team is here
[20:56] <nisshh> doctormo: oh good
[20:59] <semioticrobotic> hi all
[20:59] <nisshh> hey, semioticrobotic
[21:00] <semioticrobotic> I'm not too late, am I?
[21:00] <ChrisWoollard> Nope
[21:00] <semioticrobotic> great
[21:00] <j1mc> is the meeting in this chan, or in #ubuntu-meeting
[21:00] <semioticrobotic> this one, I believe ... -meeting is booked
[21:00] <j1mc> k
[21:01] <j1mc> shall we begin?
[21:01] <nisshh> geez, where the hell is jenkins
[21:01]  * pleia2 waves
[21:01] <j1mc> hi pleia2!
[21:01]  * nisshh waves back
[21:02] <j1mc> shaunm !
[21:02] <j1mc> o/
[21:02] <shaunm> hey j1mc
[21:02] <nisshh> shaunm: docs team?
[21:02] <j1mc> shaunm is the fearless leader of the gnome doc team, inventor of mallard, maintainer of yelp
[21:02] <shaunm> nisshh: sort of
[21:03] <shaunm> what j1mc said :)
[21:03] <pleia2> cool
[21:03] <j1mc> he can also block a german corner kick just by looking at it.
[21:03] <semioticrobotic> hey pleia2
[21:03] <doctormo> Won't having the inventor of mallard here put a bit of a bias on the discussion?
[21:03] <semioticrobotic> pleia2, how are Ubuntu users days going?
[21:03] <pleia2> semioticrobotic: going well, thanks :)
[21:03] <zkriesse> oh hey pleia2
[21:03] <nisshh> right
[21:03] <ChrisWoollard> I believe the agenda is here -> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting
[21:03] <j1mc> doctormo: i don't think we should have him leave
[21:03] <doctormo> I don't think so too
[21:03] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center/meetings too
[21:04] <j1mc> please keep the agenda and stuff on the wiki
[21:04] <shaunm> doctormo: I'm not the one making decisions. I'm just here to provide information.
[21:04] <j1mc> let's start
[21:04] <nisshh> who is chairing?
[21:04] <daker> godbyk, ?
[21:04] <godbyk> I thought jenkins was, but he appears to be away at the moment.
[21:04] <ChrisWoollard> What happened to Jenkins and the others?
[21:05] <nisshh> no idea
[21:05]  * daker is here
[21:05] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[21:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:05. The chair is godbyk.
[21:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:05] <nisshh> jenkins went off somewhere a while ago
[21:05]  * zkriesse is here...To listen
[21:05] <godbyk> I guess we'll get started. Hopefully others will show up soon.
[21:05] <j1mc> we had put syntax up at the top of the list
[21:06] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Format/syntax for the documentation pool
[21:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Format/syntax for the documentation pool
[21:06] <godbyk> I think this is probably the first major issue we need to settle.
[21:06] <nisshh> can someone fill the rest of us in as to where this decision is at?
[21:06]  * semioticrobotic nods
[21:06] <doctormo> I think so too
[21:07] <godbyk> So far, it appears that the two biggest contenders are docbook and mallard.  With honorable mentions to DITA and a couple others.
[21:07] <j1mc> with regards to the mallard notes ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center#Mallard )
[21:07] <j1mc> some of the comments aren't quite correct
[21:07] <j1mc> shaunm has started work on a mallard > latex converter
[21:07] <shaunm> http://gitorious.org/projectmallard/mal2latex
[21:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://gitorious.org/projectmallard/mal2latex
[21:08] <godbyk> From what I have seen in the discussions, it seems that Mallard is more apropos for the Ubuntu docs topic-based help work, while docbook is more apropos to the Ubuntu Manual work.  I'm not sure which format would best server the learning team.
[21:08] <j1mc> and there is a GSOC project that is working on developing a web-based mallard editor
[21:08] <godbyk> Cool
[21:08] <pleia2> I've worked some with docbook for some test things for the learning team, I think it could work great with some good style sheets
[21:09] <godbyk> I can provide some idea of what the manual team needs, but I'll have to rely on the other teams to address their own concerns.
[21:09] <doctormo> The Ubuntu Learning team need formats which produce both pdf printable materials, html based websites and are splitable into topics and combinable into books.
[21:09] <j1mc> shaunm: some time ago, you had a picture of some yelp conditional stuff...
[21:09] <godbyk> Wow, so, doctormo, you guys need a bit of everything, eh?
[21:09] <j1mc> http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/2010/04/26/faceted-navigation/
[21:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/2010/04/26/faceted-navigation/
[21:09] <j1mc> shaunm: what is the status of that?
[21:09] <j1mc> in terms of mallard support
[21:10] <shaunm> j1mc: I proposed a run-time conditional system on mallard-list. it's largely stalled on getting community input on useful types of conditions
[21:10] <doctormo> godbyk: Our use cases are kind of interesting, teacher documents, lesson plans, practical worksheets, cheat sheets, graphics and example files as well as your standard descriptive documentation.
[21:11] <shaunm> I'd also note that a docbook-esque build-time conditional system would be very easy to layer on top of mallard using external-namespace attributes
[21:11] <j1mc> shaunm: sorry... could you rephrase?
[21:11] <godbyk> How difficult is it to convert from docbook to mallard?  Is docbook a superset of mallard or completely orthogonal?
[21:12] <pleia2> shaunm: docbook is very flexible and it probably pays for that flexibility in terms of how complicated that is, how does mallard compare to these considerations?
[21:12] <godbyk> (I have a feeling this meeting may turn into a 'bombard shaunm with questions' session.) :-)
[21:12]  * pleia2 gives shaunm some cookies to make up for it
[21:13] <shaunm> j1mc: the system I proposed is one where a viewer like yelp would decide what to render on the fly. docbook's and dita's systems are more geared towards filtering on conditions during a build, before delivering to the user
[21:13] <epkugelmass> Is there an agenda for this meeting?
[21:13] <godbyk> epkugelmass: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/collaborationmeeting
[21:13] <ChrisWoollard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center/meetings
[21:13] <shaunm> godbyk: I have the rough beginnings of a docbook->mallard converter laying around somewhere. how difficult it is depends on how much of docbook you want to support
[21:14] <godbyk> shaunm: I was wondering if we used docbook as the backend format, if we could easily convert docbook to mallard for the ubuntu docs team to use.  (they'd probably have to restrict themselves to some subset of docbook, I guess.)
[21:15] <shaunm> pleia2: I think mallard is differently flexible than docbook. it's less complicated up front, but you can add on to it to make it more complicated
[21:15] <godbyk> the in-line elements seem fairly straight-forward (formatting, etc.).  how about the structural elements, though?
[21:15] <j1mc> godbyk: what types of structural elements do you have in mind?
[21:15] <shaunm> godbyk: if you restricted it to a certain subset of docbook, the conversions would be relatively easy, with one caveat
[21:16] <godbyk> j1mc: I'm not sure I know enough to be able to answer that question. :)
[21:16] <godbyk> j1mc: For instance, the ubuntu manual team will be producing books, primarily.  the ubuntu docs team will be producing topic-based help.
[21:17] <godbyk> there's different structures to topic-based help and a more linear narrative manual.
[21:17] <shaunm> what makes mallard nice is the extra dynamic linking mechanisms, and those are more than can be inferred from a hierarchical book structure. so either you'd want to encode extra mallard link info in the docbook, or you'd have to add that in a (possibly human-done) post-process step
[21:17] <godbyk> shaunm: what caveat is that?
[21:17] <shaunm> (sorry, took a moment to type)
[21:17] <godbyk> shaunm: can you give me a concrete example?
[21:17] <godbyk> (no worries)
[21:18] <shaunm> um, do you have yelp 2.30 and empathy installed?
[21:19] <godbyk> shaunm: yes.
[21:19] <j1mc> godbyk: i've contributed to a "book" using mallard.  http://gitorious.org/swfk/swfk
[21:20] <shaunm> open yelp, press Ctrl+L, and enter ghelp:empathy#create-account
[21:20] <j1mc> you can clone the repo, then do  "yelp ~/path/to/dir/"
[21:20] <shaunm> there's link trails at the top, indicating parent relationships
[21:20] <shaunm> there are two paths to this topic. in a linear book, there's inherently one.
[21:21] <godbyk> shaunm: Ah, I see.  So it's more of a graph instead of a tree structure?
[21:21] <shaunm> right
[21:21] <shaunm> and you've also got the see-also links at the bottom
[21:23] <doctormo> Not something totally untranslatable though.
[21:23] <j1mc> mallard is xml-based, so it is easy to translate using existing tools
[21:23] <shaunm> certainly
[21:23] <j1mc> launchpad, transifex... whatever
[21:23] <godbyk> I think that that sort of structure is something that we could/would allow for on the site.
[21:24] <shaunm> if you were to use docbook as a source to create mallard, I would recommend using docbook 5, because then you could just directly embed mal:link elements inside db:info elements
[21:24] <shaunm> (or any other mallard metadata elements)
[21:24] <godbyk> The way I've been (vaguely) thinking about the doc store is that it's a collection of these topics/pages/whatever.  And when you want to create a product like a linear manual or help system, you can pull in the pages you want to establish the structure (how they're linked together).
[21:25] <shaunm> godbyk: do you have ideas on what you would use to pull them together?
[21:26] <godbyk> shaunm: Nope. Trying to figure that out. :)
[21:26] <shaunm> have you looked at either docbook assemblies or dita bookmaps?
[21:27] <godbyk> shaunm: In the end, it'd have to be translatable to mallard for ubuntu docs and tex for ubuntu manual and lots of different things for the learning team.
[21:27] <godbyk> shaunm: I haven't looked at either of those yet.
[21:27] <shaunm> ok, and how much of the material that you'd like to reuse would just be gnome material?
[21:28] <j1mc> godbyk: is the manual team set on latex?  there are xsl-fo > fop conversions, though i don't think they provide as nice of an appearance as LaTeX.
[21:28] <godbyk> I think the docs team will be reusing as much of the gnome material as possible.
[21:29] <godbyk> The manual team tends to write its own stuff or modifies existing docs to fit into the linear book-like style.
[21:29] <shaunm> right
[21:29] <godbyk> j1mc: I don't know that we're set on latex, but it does produce the best output so far.
[21:29] <godbyk> j1mc: Of everyone on the manual team, I'm probably the one who's most concerned about the appearance of the output (typography, etc.).
[21:29] <nisshh> cyas, im off to bed
[21:30] <godbyk> nisshh: g'night!
[21:30] <nisshh> godbyk: cya
[21:30] <shaunm> but then, if there is sharing of content, how much will the manual team have to adapt docs team stuff to fit a linear book style?
[21:30] <shaunm> (or, conversely, how much will the docs team have to modify manual stuff to be less booky?)
[21:31] <godbyk> shaunm: there will have to be some modification (both ways), I'm sure.  how much is an unknown at the moment.
[21:32] <godbyk> shaunm: ideally, it'd be nice if there were some notion of branching and revisioning so that if some modifications are made to fix an underlying bug in the source doc, it could be picked up or propagated to the tweaked versions (book-style vs. topic-style).
[21:32] <godbyk> but that may be wishful thinking on my part.
[21:32] <j1mc> godbyk and shaunm - DITA has a transitional text feature that allow for filler language between topics. http://www.ditainfocenter.com/eclipsehelp/index.jsp?topic=/org.ditausers.infomanager.ArchSpec1.1/topicover.html
[21:33] <j1mc> it's the "printonly" option
[21:33] <j1mc> (toward the bottom of the page)
[21:35] <godbyk> j1mc: I'm not seeing the link or whatever I should be reading.
[21:35] <shaunm> does there actually need to be a single source format?
[21:36] <j1mc> godbyk: sorry, click on "transitional text" and then go to the bottom of that page
[21:36] <godbyk> shaunm: I don't think it has to be. It'd just be easier to share docs if it were.  And it'd mean we only need to create one editor and one set of tools to manipulate that format.
[21:36] <doctormo> In learning we have found that topics are split up into part, explanatory, descriptive, instructional and demonstrative sections.
[21:36] <j1mc> shaunm: i think that's the goal - as much content re-use as possible
[21:36] <godbyk> j1mc: ah, I see it now.
[21:37] <shaunm> j1mc: well, what I was suggesting was that, with the right tools, any sane source format could be reused in whichever contexts
[21:38] <shaunm> you could create a book with a docbook assembly that references some files written in docbook, some in mallard, some in dita, some in html, etc
[21:38] <shaunm> of course, you need a good build tool to handle them all
[21:39] <j1mc> i haven't looked into docbook assemblies in any meaningful way, but i think it would be best to limit what syntaxes we use.
[21:39] <doctormo> Is it possible to compile a docbook from something more simple? The source format we have to consider has to be more about editing and structure of meme than the resulting format or publishing.
[21:39] <j1mc> i get your drift, though... you're suggesting that we have at least *some* flexibility
[21:40] <shaunm> doctormo: well, you're not going to get more semantics out of less. but you convert to docbook, just maybe not to its more structured modeling elements
[21:40] <j1mc> doctormo: when you say "something more simple" are you speaking of something like your use of ascii-doc?
[21:41] <shaunm> doctormo: e.g. I could take a mallard <code> element and turn it into a docbook <programlisting> element, but not very easily into a docbook <classsynopsis>
[21:41] <godbyk> Hey, jenkins!
[21:41] <ChrisWoollard> welcome
[21:41] <daker> 40min!!!
[21:42] <jenkins> o sorry! I forogt
[21:42] <daker> welcome jenkins !!
[21:42] <jenkins> how is it
[21:42] <j1mc> we're discussing source formats
[21:42] <jenkins> sorry everyone, thanks to who ever took over
[21:42] <doctormo> shaunm, j1mc: You guys are talking about tech specifics, I'm trying to make sure that what ever format we choose there is a way to separate out elements so they can be recombined in different circumstances.
[21:42] <godbyk> shaunm: So we should use the more semantically-rich format for the base, right?  Which format would that be, in your opinion?
[21:43] <shaunm> godbyk: all the formats have certain things that aren't easily represented in the others
[21:43] <godbyk> doctormo: I think that the separation of topics will have a little bit less to do with the markup format and more to do with the website/database structure.
[21:43] <shaunm> but on the whole, docbook probably has the most
[21:44] <j1mc> doctormo: to make sure i understand what you're referring to, could you clarify what you mean with "different circumstances"?
[21:44] <shaunm> the question is, do you actually care about the information you get in e.g. classsynopsis?
[21:45] <doctormo> godbyk: Your probably right, so markup is important in this discussion, linking and other externals isn't so much.
[21:46] <godbyk> doctormo: I think the linking is very important and something we'll need to figure out soon, too. but I think it's a separate topic.  (there is a little bit of an overlap as the format will come into play there, too, though.)
[21:46]  * jenkins can't believe i forgot after all the reminding i did on it
[21:46]  * godbyk couldn't believe it either. :)
[21:46] <daker> \o/
[21:46] <shaunm> I think the hardest problem you're going to have to deal with is differences in writing style for different targets
[21:46] <daker> jenkins, http://pastebin.org/388689
[21:47] <godbyk> shaunm: I think that will be an issue.  What I'd like to see there is that the site maintains a relationship between the original doc and the modified version.
[21:48] <godbyk> So you could tell that this section of the manual is derivative of this gnome doc topic, for instance.
[21:48] <doctormo> shaunm: Actually writing style can be solved more or less with the text's class plus a tabloid method of progressing complexity.
[21:48] <jenkins> thanks daker
[21:48] <j1mc> doctormo: could you rephrase?  i'm not quite getting that.
[21:49] <daker> jenkins, np
[21:49] <c7p> are you still on meeting >
[21:49] <j1mc> c7p: yes
[21:50] <doctormo> j1mc: You have some content, it's one of the classes I mentioned above: explanatory, descriptive, demonstrative or instructional (which is a database thing) and in the text there is a progression so the first sentences are easy and simple and the later are complex and in depth.
[21:51] <j1mc> i think what shaunm was getting at was that a manual is written in a different style than user docs
[21:51] <j1mc> or at least it typically is
[21:51] <j1mc> anyway... i don't mean to get side tracked.
[21:51] <godbyk> doctormo: that format is good for learning materials, but may not be suited for step-by-step instructions on resolving a problem or following a procedure.
[21:52] <godbyk> j1mc: right.
[21:52] <j1mc> there are a couple of things i want to point out...
[21:53] <doctormo> godbyk: Depends, that sounds like an instructional work to me.
[21:53] <godbyk> I guess at this point, my question to the group is: Do we have opinions on which format would be best? Or do we need to get more questions answered?
[21:53] <j1mc> godbyk: i'm thinking the same thing
[21:54] <j1mc> perhaps doing some mockups - small drafts using each format
[21:54] <doctormo> godbyk: It's just semantics, I go with docbook fragments.
[21:54] <j1mc> would work well
[21:54] <j1mc> take a sampling of content from the docs, manual, and learning teams...
[21:55] <j1mc> ... and put them into each format
[21:55] <shaunm> if you do docbook as a source format, I would strongly recommend docbook 5
[21:55] <j1mc> look at output, workflow, etc.
[21:55] <ChrisWoollard> That sounds like a good idea.
[21:55] <j1mc> shaunm: agreed
[21:55] <j1mc> there's no sense in starting any new project using docbook 4.x
[21:56] <godbyk> Just to get an idea of what folks are thinking: What objections are there to using docbook 5 for the base format?
[21:56] <j1mc> what do people think about the sample mockups?  i think it's necessary to make an informed decision.
[21:57] <ChrisWoollard> agreed
[21:57] <godbyk> j1mc: I'm all for sample mockups as long as we don't spend too much time on them.
[21:57] <jenkins> so we are doing mock ups in docbook 5 of each teams work? i still feel a bit out of the loop
[21:57] <godbyk> We'd want samples in what formats? docbook and mallard?  dita?
[21:57] <j1mc> godbyk: yeah - that makes sense.  we should be able to have them together in a week.
[21:58] <j1mc> godbyk: i think all three would be good.
[21:58] <godbyk> Is anyone here from the ubuntu docs team?
[21:58]  * j1mc o/
[21:58] <godbyk> j1mc: ah, great! :)
[21:59] <godbyk> doctormo: Are you willing to create some mock-ups in the different formats for some ubuntu learning team materials?
[21:59] <shaunm> not to throw any more wrenches in, but you could also consider xhtml5 as a source format, provided people stuck to certain styles and structures
[21:59] <j1mc> godbyk: i'm thinking that we need to have a mockup that includes info from all three projects.
[21:59] <godbyk> shaunm: true. we'd need to define some classes for that, thoguh.
[22:00] <shaunm> certainly
[22:00] <shaunm> j1mc: so could all three projects provide a sampling of their content?
[22:00] <godbyk> shaunm: yeah.
[22:00] <jenkins> should the content be the same topic?
[22:00] <shaunm> and then whoever is interested in a source format can look at each project's sampling
[22:01] <ChrisWoollard> That might make c omparison easier
[22:01] <j1mc> jenkins: i think so
[22:01] <j1mc> at least the same topic area
[22:02] <jenkins> right what topic have we all covered then?
[22:02] <j1mc> i'm least familiar with content for the learning team...
[22:02] <jenkins> has the learning team done any of the default aps?
[22:02] <doctormo> j1mc: Me too ;-)
[22:02] <j1mc> doctormo: any suggestions?
[22:02] <doctormo> We have a systems administration course
[22:02] <doctormo> It's in ODF
[22:03] <doctormo> http://doctormo.org/2009/07/15/ubuntu-system-admin-class-command-line-basics/
[22:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://doctormo.org/2009/07/15/ubuntu-system-admin-class-command-line-basics/
[22:03] <godbyk> there's already mallard docs for empathy, apparently.
[22:04] <godbyk> should we work on a topic related to empathy?
[22:04] <jenkins> the manual does not have any system admin stuff but does have command line basics
[22:04] <j1mc> ubuntu-docs has a "using the command line" section
[22:04] <doctormo> sounds like common topic
[22:05] <godbyk> okay.  intro to command line then?
[22:05] <jenkins> don't see why not, am I correct in thinking this is to compare writing styles?
[22:05] <j1mc> sure... and we don't even need a full-on complete section...
[22:05] <godbyk> yeah.
[22:05] <jenkins> hey humphreybc
[22:05] <godbyk> Will a week be enough time for everyone?
[22:05] <ChrisWoollard> welcome
[22:05] <humphreybc> hello
[22:05] <jenkins> sure
[22:06] <humphreybc> now, am I an hour late or on time?
[22:06] <j1mc> i'm thinking that it's more to see the syntax and how it could work as a "content pool"
[22:06] <jenkins> what format are we doing these sections in?
[22:06] <daker> humphreybc, 1h & 05min
[22:06] <jenkins> humphreybc: I was 40mins late :(
[22:06] <humphreybc> ah
[22:06] <humphreybc> oh well
[22:06] <godbyk> [ACTION] Each of the teams (docs, manual, learning) will provide samples of their work on using the command line in each of the following formats: docbook 5, mallard, dita, and html5.
[22:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Each of the teams (docs, manual, learning) will provide samples of their work on using the command line in each of the following formats: docbook 5, mallard, dita, and html5.
[22:06] <j1mc> s/html5/xhtml5  :)
[22:07] <godbyk> j1mc: sure. I figured they'd killed straight html by version 5. :)
[22:07] <jenkins> how long a page? half a page?
[22:07] <j1mc> i'll handle the dita part, actually.
[22:07] <godbyk> jenkins: whatever you need to do to get a feel for the format and use a variety of tags, etc.
[22:07] <j1mc> godbyk: agreed
[22:08] <j1mc> shaunm: would you like to handle the mallard?
[22:08] <jenkins> sounds good to me
[22:08] <j1mc> you could probably give it the most proper presentation.
[22:08] <j1mc> ... if you wouldn't mind doing that
[22:08] <godbyk> It'd be great if we could gather all that up in a week, if possible.
[22:09] <godbyk> Shall we move on to the next topic on the agenda then (finally)? :)
[22:09] <j1mc> not yet
[22:09] <godbyk> rats!
[22:09] <godbyk> j1mc: What else do we need to discuss?
[22:09] <j1mc> to make sure we understand...  i was thinking that we would be *combining* content from learning, docs, and manual...
[22:10] <godbyk> Ah.
[22:10] <j1mc> into one sample doc in the multiple formats
[22:10] <humphreybc> j1mc: yes
[22:10] <j1mc> so that way we're getting the best idea of content re-use.
[22:10] <j1mc> but that's all i wanted to say
[22:11] <j1mc> maybe what we do is give ourselves a couple days to get some standardized content from all 3 sources
[22:11] <j1mc> so combine all three sources into one
[22:11] <j1mc> then work to get them into the different formats...
[22:12] <j1mc> one person do docbook, one do mallard, one do dita, one do xhtml5
[22:12] <j1mc> good/bad idea?
[22:12] <ChrisWoollard> who is doing what?
[22:12] <j1mc> i could handle any but xhtml5
[22:12] <j1mc> we could get a phil bull from the docs team to do mallard
[22:12] <j1mc> i could do dita
[22:13] <shaunm> j1mc: I could do handle mallard, if phil can't
[22:13] <j1mc> shaunm: thanks
[22:13] <shaunm> I mean, I could do any of them, I suppose
[22:14] <j1mc> manual team... could you do xhtml?
[22:14] <godbyk> j1mc: Sure.
[22:14] <godbyk> j1mc: I can take xhtml 5.
[22:14] <j1mc> k
[22:15] <j1mc> shaunm: docbook5?  i haven't given a good look at v.5's special features
[22:15] <j1mc> if you are too busy, tho... or would rather do mallard
[22:15] <j1mc> i know you aren't even formally affiliated w/ ubuntu
[22:16] <j1mc> ... i'll ping out to the docs team for docbook5
[22:16] <j1mc> surely someone can handle it
[22:16] <godbyk> ... in a timely fashion. :)
[22:16] <shaunm> it's not substantially different from 4
[22:17] <j1mc> syntactically (is that a word?) no... but there are some featuers.
[22:18] <j1mc> ok... so have the standardized sample content this week...
[22:18] <godbyk> cool.
[22:18] <j1mc> perhaps we could dump each project's content into a bzr repo (text only)
[22:18] <j1mc> no markup
[22:18] <j1mc> then we do the markup samples
[22:19] <j1mc> sound good?
[22:19] <jenkins> yep does to me
[22:19] <jenkins> what team should own the branch though?
[22:19] <godbyk> works for me.  do you want to set up the repository and email us the info, j1mc?
[22:19] <j1mc> sure
[22:19] <godbyk> okay.
[22:19] <jenkins> doc team we are all in that right?
[22:20] <godbyk> anything else under this agenda item?
[22:21] <j1mc> i think we can move on
[22:21] <godbyk> 'kay.
[22:21] <godbyk> [TOPIC] The use of multiple IRC channels
[22:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  The use of multiple IRC channels
[22:21] <godbyk> jenkins: what's this one about?
[22:21] <j1mc> i think we're on into manual-only territory, so i'm going to step out.
[22:22] <godbyk> I'm not sure what territory it's in.  It was on the agenda for this meeting, though. :)
[22:22] <godbyk> If you have to take off, that's okay, j1mc.  Thanks for showing up!
[22:22] <godbyk> We'll be in touch throughout the week as we figure out this format stuff.
[22:24] <jenkins> I thought that as..
[22:24] <jenkins> we are all talking about the same thing would it make more sense to use one channel? What are peoples thoughts
[22:24] <jenkins> ie #ubuntu-manual and #ubuntu-doc
[22:25] <jenkins> we do have a few issues about what to do with ops and channel topics but it is easy to make one point at the other.
[22:26] <godbyk> Well, #ubuntu-doc seems pretty quiet most the time.  If they don't mind, we could have our USLC discussions there.
[22:26] <humphreybc> I have no problem with us hanging out in #ubuntu-doc more often
[22:26] <humphreybc> but i'd like to keep this channel around
[22:26] <ChrisWoollard> USLC?
[22:26] <godbyk> Otherwise, it may be a good idea to have separate channels for the different teams still.  For instance, the #ubuntu-manual channel is also home to the Quickshot discussions.
[22:26] <godbyk> USLC = Ubuntu Support and Learning Center.
[22:26] <jenkins> the quickshot stuff does make this channel off topic
[22:26] <godbyk> the temporary name for this website we keep going on about.
[22:27] <ChrisWoollard> which temporary name?
[22:27] <c7p> jenkins: quickshot is crucial part of the project, isn't it ?
[22:27] <humphreybc> The channel set up we have now is fine, but we should hang out in #ubuntu-doc more often
[22:28] <zkriesse> yeah you guys should
[22:28] <jenkins> quickshot is important to docs in general but i am rather biased. I do agree with humphreybc
[22:28] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center
[22:28] <ChrisWoollard> thanks
[22:28] <zkriesse> If i may say something?
[22:28] <godbyk> zkriesse: Sure, jump in.
[22:28] <jenkins> go for it
[22:29] <zkriesse> OK, while I know i haven't been with you guys that long I feel that we should have chanserv in here
[22:29] <zkriesse> make a few ops and such
[22:29] <jenkins> we have ops, there is not much use for chansevr we just /msg it
[22:30] <jenkins> sorry that appears rather blunt
[22:30] <jenkins> what was your thinking zkriesse?
[22:33] <ChrisWoollard> Ok. What happens now /next?
[22:33] <godbyk> Was there anything else on the IRC channels issue? Or did we answer your question, jenkins?
[22:33] <jenkins> thats fine thanks godbyk
[22:33] <godbyk> [ACTION] Changes in Maverick
[22:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Changes in Maverick
[22:33] <godbyk> jenkins: Any idea what this one's about?
[22:33] <godbyk> Or is it manual-only stuff?
[22:34] <jenkins> I *think* its manual only not for this meeting
[22:34] <godbyk> fair enough
[22:34] <godbyk> jenkins: Same with 'Maverick/Lucid Branch merge/replace'?
[22:34] <jenkins> yep
[22:34] <godbyk> 'kay.
[22:34] <godbyk> [ACTION] Other business
[22:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Other business
[22:34] <jenkins> I was hoping jasson would come so we could ask to be sure
[22:34] <godbyk> Any other business that needs to be covered for this meeting?
[22:35] <semioticrobotic> Not seeing any :)
[22:35] <godbyk> I'll take that as a 'no' then. :)
[22:35] <semioticrobotic> ha!
[22:36] <godbyk> Thanks to doctormo, pleia2, shaunm, and j1mc for coming!
[22:36] <jenkins> Thanks to all for coming and thank you VERY much to godbyk for chairing.
[22:36] <godbyk> And with that...
[22:36] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[22:36] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:36.
[22:36] <ChrisWoollard> Lovely
[22:36] <semioticrobotic> nice work godbyk  :)
[22:36] <jenkins> I do think you have a better grasp on this all than me kevin, its rather more comples than I imaged
[22:36] <c7p> nice guys
[22:36] <jenkins> hey c7p
[22:36] <semioticrobotic> one of our most efficient and focused meetings yet!
[22:36] <c7p> hey jenkins
[22:37] <humphreybc> semioticrobotic: probably because I wasn't around for most of it :P
[22:37] <godbyk> Heh.. yeah, when in doubt, blame humphreybc. :)
[22:37] <jenkins> sorry everyone I have become rather busy with stuff the last few days and have no real idea why
[22:37] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc, nonsense :)
[22:37] <humphreybc> be back shortly
[22:37] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc: I think it was a combination of the new voices and lots of prior discussion coming into the meeting
[22:38] <godbyk> jenkins: You should just quit school, forget about a job, join a monastery (with Internet access), and work on Quickshot and the manual full-time.
[22:38] <c7p> haha
[22:38] <semioticrobotic> nice!
[22:38] <pleia2> hehe
[22:38] <jenkins> godbyk: lol, I have loads of stiff to do before I start work :(
[22:39] <godbyk> jenkins: Me, too! :)
[22:39]  * godbyk wishes his dissertation would write itself.
[22:39] <jenkins> I need to get some sleep as I have to be up on time, does anyone want me for anything?
[22:40] <semioticrobotic> godbyk, what's your dissertation about?
[22:40] <c7p> jenkins, i think you can go and rest :)
[22:41] <godbyk> semioticrobotic: No clue yet. :)
[22:41] <jenkins> godbyk: did you not have it to start when you joined the team?
[22:42] <godbyk> jenkins: Pretty much, yeah. I'm only here as a way to procrastinate on my dissertation.
[22:42] <humphreybc> Well I just can't seem to get my login time any faster
[22:42] <semioticrobotic> godbyk, no worries, right?  :)  When is your estimated defense window?
[22:42] <godbyk> Sadly, I need to start on it soonish so I can graduate someday.
[22:42] <godbyk> semioticrobotic: That all depends on when I get started!
[22:42] <semioticrobotic> humphreybc, I was just reading your blog post about this
[22:42] <jenkins> I did more manual team work whilst revising than i have done in a long time
[22:43] <semioticrobotic> godbyk: Ha!
[22:43] <godbyk> jenkins: Procrastination is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
[22:43] <jenkins> yep, I love it
[22:43] <zkriesse> sorry had to get the mail
[22:43] <semioticrobotic> I'm starting coursework on a PhD next month (wow, that's the first time I've said that!), so the diss is a long way off
[22:44] <jenkins> night all, may see you tomorrow please e-mail me if you need anything o/
[22:44] <c7p> godbyk, what else do we have to do for the trasnlated manual ?
[22:44] <c7p> night jenkins
[22:45] <semioticrobotic> I should run, too.  Need to format and set up this shiny new 750GB drive.
[22:45] <semioticrobotic> bye all
[22:45] <c7p> bye semioticrobotic
[22:45]  * humphreybc is still trying to figure out why his login time sucks
[22:49] <c7p> godbyk: are you around ?
[22:52] <godbyk> c7p: not really. I had to get back to work on other things.
[22:52] <godbyk> c7p: I think the only things remaining are the bugs you mentioned.
[22:52] <godbyk> c7p: I'm going to try to work on it later tonight or tomorrow.
[22:52] <godbyk> (the glossary stuff is rather irksome.) :)
[22:52] <c7p> yap ( http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/3sIwez7O8A  )
[22:53] <c7p> yes it is, topo can fix it if you want
[22:53] <c7p> g2g
[22:54] <c7p> try to work on these things for anything you want send me an e-mail.
[22:55] <c7p> night all
[23:41] <ChrisWoollard> Goodnight all.