| === yofel_ is now known as yofel | ||
| === MTecknology is now known as MTeck-ricer | ||
| === Mobe_ is now known as Mobe | ||
| === pythonlova is now known as apachelogger | ||
| === BlackZ_ is now known as BlackZ | ||
| === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha | ||
| === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk | ||
| === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha | ||
| === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk | ||
| === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha | ||
| === IdleOne is now known as IdleTwo | ||
| === IdleTwo is now known as IdleOne | ||
| === virtuald_ is now known as virtuald | ||
| * Pici looks around | 21:03 | |
| topyli | irc council meeting? | 21:03 |
|---|---|---|
| topyli | are we here? Pici nhandler jussi01 tsimpson ? | 21:03 |
| Pici | I suppose | 21:04 |
| topyli | hi | 21:04 |
| Pici | I'm not sure if Jussi is going to make it | 21:04 |
| topyli | i know he's busy, been popping up on irc from time to time | 21:04 |
| ts2 | mostly | 21:05 |
| topyli | hi ts2 | 21:05 |
| ts2 | I wont be too active, as it takes forever to type ;) | 21:06 |
| topyli | you can say "yeah!" and "no!" and vote :) | 21:07 |
| ts2 | yeah! | 21:07 |
| topyli | :) | 21:07 |
| Pici | woo | 21:07 |
| topyli | i can chair if nobody feels ambitious, but i'll probably only do the chores some time tomorrow | 21:08 |
| Pici | Fine with me | 21:08 |
| topyli | okay | 21:09 |
| topyli | #startmeeting | 21:09 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is topyli. | 21:09 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 21:09 |
| topyli | [TOPIC] Review the Mentoring page for approval/rejection | 21:09 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Review the Mentoring page for approval/rejection | 21:09 |
| topyli | i had a look today and fixed a couple of typos. what's the "conclusion" section supposed to contain? | 21:10 |
| topyli | [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring | 21:10 |
| MootBot | LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring | 21:10 |
| ts2 | I'm not too sure, i dont think we need it | 21:10 |
| Pici | I'm not sure, do we even need it? | 21:10 |
| topyli | i'll be happy enough without it | 21:11 |
| ts2 | it was just there from the first template | 21:11 |
| Pici | I don't think the page needs any further explanation, its pretty clear without anything else. | 21:11 |
| ts2 | we have used it, and linked to it already | 21:12 |
| topyli | otherwise, i'm ok if we just bless it, and we can of course modify if needed | 21:12 |
| topyli | editing out the empty section first of course :) | 21:12 |
| ts2 | if someone wants to action editing it, and then we can approve on merit | 21:13 |
| topyli | i can edit it | 21:14 |
| Pici | edited. | 21:14 |
| topyli | so we vote? | 21:14 |
| ts2 | yeah! ;) | 21:14 |
| Pici | Sure! | 21:15 |
| topyli | [VOTE] approve the mentoring page | 21:15 |
| MootBot | Please vote on: approve the mentoring page. | 21:15 |
| MootBot | Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot | 21:15 |
| MootBot | E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting | 21:15 |
| Pici | +1 | 21:15 |
| MootBot | +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 | 21:15 |
| topyli | +1 | 21:15 |
| MootBot | +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 21:15 |
| ts2 | +1 | 21:15 |
| MootBot | +1 received from ts2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 | 21:15 |
| topyli | #endvote | 21:15 |
| topyli | uh | 21:15 |
| topyli | [ENDVOTE] | 21:15 |
| MootBot | Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3 | 21:15 |
| topyli | Pici: can you edit again, remove the draft label? | 21:16 |
| Pici | topyli: doing so now. | 21:16 |
| ts2 | Pici: and uncomment the category | 21:16 |
| topyli | thanks. that's that | 21:16 |
| topyli | [TOPIC] Burnout strategy for operators | 21:17 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Burnout strategy for operators | 21:17 |
| topyli | this is jussi's item | 21:17 |
| ts2 | this is something we'll find difficult to make policy for | 21:17 |
| topyli | i agree with that on priciple, but i don't know how to suggest vacations for ops | 21:17 |
| topyli | i know how to say "you need a time out" but i don't know how to make it official | 21:18 |
| ts2 | well, we can force the "time out", but I'd really hate to do that | 21:19 |
| Pici | I'd like to think our ops are understanding enough to take the time off when we suggest it to them | 21:19 |
| * st33med gets out the dunce cap | 21:19 | |
| st33med | Time out! | 21:19 |
| ts2 | we need to create a culture where we trust each other to tell usually when we appear tense | 21:20 |
| topyli | we could have something on the operator guidelines about monitoring your fellow ops' stress levels | 21:20 |
| topyli | exactly | 21:20 |
| Pici | hmm | 21:22 |
| ts2 | it should be a self-enforced thing, where the council would only get involved when extream situations zrise | 21:22 |
| ts2 | *arise | 21:22 |
| Pici | I'm not so sure about that. I think that any operator should be free to come to any ircc member with a report if they don't feel comfortable for some reason telling another op about it. | 21:23 |
| Pici | Stress can make people less receptive to critisim. | 21:23 |
| ts2 | true | 21:23 |
| ts2 | we can always act as a proxy for such things | 21:24 |
| ts2 | it is, after all, our responsibility to maintain the ops team | 21:25 |
| topyli | but i don't want a policy where we encourage ops to come to the council for everyday troubles. if we write down a standard path like that, people will take it instead of actioning themselves | 21:25 |
| ts2 | i think part of the issue is that -ops is public | 21:26 |
| ts2 | we (ops) cant have a "quite word" easily | 21:26 |
| Pici | Then we should encourage private messaging these sort of things then. | 21:26 |
| ts2 | -e | 21:26 |
| topyli | indeed those discussions are better off channel | 21:27 |
| jussi01 | o/ | 21:27 |
| jussi01 | sorry Im late | 21:27 |
| Pici | Hey Jussi | 21:27 |
| jussi01 | one idea I had on this, which may actually be a dud, but still worth thinking about is some sort of "timeout" ever 6/12months. | 21:29 |
| ts2 | because it's such an individual thing, that may be difficult | 21:30 |
| jussi01 | even if you dont think you need it/ dont need it, it still isnt such a bad thing | 21:30 |
| * Pici hmms | 21:31 | |
| topyli | on the other hand, our real jobs have mandatory vacations you *have* to take, because otherwise some people would never take one and just die at office | 21:31 |
| jussi01 | exactly the concept Im thinking of | 21:31 |
| Pici | My job doesn't have that. | 21:31 |
| topyli | oh. it's the law here | 21:32 |
| Pici | I think we should encourage people to take time off from IRC, but I'm against forcing it. | 21:32 |
| ts2 | personally i think we need a culture change rather thanalysis pure polucy | 21:32 |
| Pici | ts2: agreed | 21:32 |
| jussi01 | how are you envisioning changing the culture? | 21:33 |
| ts2 | silly auto compleation | 21:33 |
| jussi01 | I dont think it should be pure policy, but I do think policy should be part of it | 21:34 |
| ts2 | jussi01: there is no easy way, but it's the way i think it _should_ be | 21:34 |
| Pici | Education is a good way to alert people of burnout | 21:34 |
| jussi01 | perhaps it could be a non enforced, but scheduled thing. If we schedule the holidays, and say, that while you dont have to take it, we encourage you too. | 21:34 |
| ts2 | we need some policy to inforce it if absolutely needed | 21:34 |
| ts2 | but pure policy will not work | 21:35 |
| jussi01 | and actually do it ouselves also. | 21:35 |
| topyli | how about "please take a time out sometimes" in the guidelines, with an addititional "the ircc may enforce a timeout" or something along those lines? | 21:36 |
| ts2 | it'll be difficult to arrange holidays for ops and keep time-zones filled | 21:36 |
| ts2 | at a minimum, a lot more admin | 21:36 |
| Pici | How do you suppose that we would enforce a timeout? Remove operator privleges? Bans? | 21:37 |
| Pici | I don't like the sound of it myself. | 21:37 |
| topyli | jussi01: we have a limited term anyway, ops are theoretically forever | 21:37 |
| ts2 | time out schould be encouraged, right now i think theres a bit of a tabu about it | 21:37 |
| ts2 | which is why i talk about culture | 21:38 |
| jussi01 | ts2: exactly, hence my suggestion of scheduling them, making them somewhat "official" | 21:38 |
| jussi01 | which can be easily managed with a script that interfaces with LP. | 21:38 |
| Pici | I don't think we need a technical solution for this. | 21:39 |
| ts2 | not sure if a script should be used | 21:39 |
| ts2 | it should be 90% culture, backed up with 10% policy | 21:40 |
| jussi01 | perhaps having a simple sign up sheet, where people can advise that they will not be around? | 21:40 |
| jussi01 | and encouraging people to take holidays, along with some burnout education? | 21:41 |
| ts2 | sure, we need some notification system | 21:41 |
| jussi01 | Perhaps the burnout education can be included in the ops hours we have been talking about? | 21:41 |
| Pici | Replace the sign out sheet with a calenar, where people can mark when they're taking time off. | 21:41 |
| Pici | *calendar | 21:41 |
| jussi01 | we did have something like that planned for the bt2 | 21:42 |
| jussi01 | Pici: +1 | 21:42 |
| Pici | We did? | 21:42 |
| jussi01 | Pici: kinda, I suggested it - think its on the gobby doc | 21:42 |
| jussi01 | so for now, perhaps just a shared google calendar? | 21:43 |
| Pici | I think thats a good first step. It'll be useful anyway to know when people are taking extended time off. | 21:43 |
| jussi01 | how long are we suggesting people take off= | 21:44 |
| jussi01 | ? | 21:44 |
| ts2 | maybe just giving people the opitunity to msrk their time off will be a catalist | 21:44 |
| Pici | ts2: I agree | 21:44 |
| ts2 | i think at least 2 weeks in the year, but its individual | 21:45 |
| jussi01 | so, an amendment to the op guidelines and a shared calender then. | 21:45 |
| topyli | a message on the ML too, to advertise | 21:46 |
| jussi01 | shall we have a vote on it? | 21:46 |
| Pici | Whats the amendment going to say? Just encourage time off to fend off burnout? | 21:46 |
| ts2 | people dont realise how critical time off is for our ops | 21:47 |
| jussi01 | Pici: with an encouragement to take at least 2 weeks | 21:47 |
| Pici | jussi01: okay, as long as we're not forcing it. | 21:47 |
| topyli | it should also encourage ops to try and recognize burnout signs in others and to talk to them | 21:47 |
| jussi01 | es | 21:48 |
| jussi01 | topyli: +1 | 21:48 |
| Pici | sounds good to me. | 21:48 |
| topyli | we can work on the wording later | 21:48 |
| ts2 | i think if we talk to eachother more about it, it wll become less of an issue | 21:48 |
| jussi01 | agreed | 21:48 |
| topyli | ok, let me figure out something votable :) | 21:49 |
| topyli | [VOTE] amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off | 21:50 |
| MootBot | Please vote on: amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off. | 21:50 |
| MootBot | Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot | 21:50 |
| MootBot | E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting | 21:50 |
| jussi01 | +1 | 21:50 |
| MootBot | +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 | 21:50 |
| topyli | +1 | 21:50 |
| MootBot | +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 21:50 |
| Pici | +1 | 21:51 |
| MootBot | +1 received from Pici. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 | 21:51 |
| ts2 | +1 | 21:51 |
| MootBot | +1 received from ts2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 | 21:51 |
| topyli | [ENDVOTE] | 21:51 |
| MootBot | Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4 | 21:51 |
| topyli | [ACTION] council to work on guidelines amendment | 21:51 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: council to work on guidelines amendment | 21:52 |
| topyli | that's not a real action is it :\ | 21:52 |
| jussi01 | not really :P | 21:52 |
| topyli | let's admit it's not actionable yet :) | 21:53 |
| topyli | anything else? | 21:53 |
| jussi01 | topyli: you can action someone to get the calendar done. | 21:53 |
| jussi01 | but not me, as I always screw gcal up | 21:53 |
| jussi01 | Ill work on the amendment | 21:54 |
| Pici | I wouldn't mind putting together the email once we have the other two things done. | 21:54 |
| topyli | hrm. we can't use the ircc calendar | 21:54 |
| topyli | i'll create a new one, let's figure out how we get it shared with all the right people | 21:55 |
| ts2 | if only lp had a calendar ;) | 21:55 |
| topyli | [ACTION] jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment | 21:55 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment | 21:55 |
| topyli | [ACTION] topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team | 21:56 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team | 21:56 |
| Pici | I suppose we could use LP to send out an email to our operator teams... or we should have a separate operator mailing list. | 21:56 |
| jussi01 | I think it has to be limited to ops in the core chans, otherwise it gets too big, no? | 21:56 |
| Pici | Right | 21:57 |
| ts2 | it's always a good idea for all ops, but core ops are usually under more presur | 21:58 |
| jussi01 | ok, so any new bugs? any stadard items we need to follow up on? | 21:58 |
| topyli | no new bugs | 21:58 |
| Pici | I think that was a productive meeting. | 21:58 |
| topyli | we could encourage other teams to create similar systems | 21:58 |
| * ts2 closed the guadex(?) bue earlier | 21:59 | |
| topyli | for their ops | 21:59 |
| topyli | ts2: oh yea, so we have 50% less bugs! | 21:59 |
| topyli | Pici: indeed | 21:59 |
| ts2 | yeah! | 21:59 |
| ts2 | :) | 21:59 |
| topyli | hehe | 21:59 |
| topyli | #endmeeting | 21:59 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 15:59. | 21:59 |
| jussi01 | excellent! | 21:59 |
| jussi01 | good meeting, sorry I missed some | 22:00 |
| jussi01 | laters | 22:00 |
| topyli | i'll do the standard chores tomorrow, it's late | 22:00 |
| ts2 | Mr. Burns returns | 22:00 |
| Pici | excellent | 22:00 |
| topyli | thanks guys :) | 22:01 |
| ts2 | please don't make me type anymore :) | 22:01 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!