=== yofel_ is now known as yofel === MTecknology is now known as MTeck-ricer === Mobe_ is now known as Mobe === pythonlova is now known as apachelogger === BlackZ_ is now known as BlackZ === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === IdleOne is now known as IdleTwo === IdleTwo is now known as IdleOne === virtuald_ is now known as virtuald [21:03] * Pici looks around [21:03] irc council meeting? [21:03] are we here? Pici nhandler jussi01 tsimpson ? [21:04] I suppose [21:04] hi [21:04] I'm not sure if Jussi is going to make it [21:04] i know he's busy, been popping up on irc from time to time [21:05] mostly [21:05] hi ts2 [21:06] I wont be too active, as it takes forever to type ;) [21:07] you can say "yeah!" and "no!" and vote :) [21:07] yeah! [21:07] :) [21:07] woo [21:08] i can chair if nobody feels ambitious, but i'll probably only do the chores some time tomorrow [21:08] Fine with me [21:09] okay [21:09] #startmeeting [21:09] Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is topyli. [21:09] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [21:09] [TOPIC] Review the Mentoring page for approval/rejection [21:09] New Topic: Review the Mentoring page for approval/rejection [21:10] i had a look today and fixed a couple of typos. what's the "conclusion" section supposed to contain? [21:10] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring [21:10] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring [21:10] I'm not too sure, i dont think we need it [21:10] I'm not sure, do we even need it? [21:11] i'll be happy enough without it [21:11] it was just there from the first template [21:11] I don't think the page needs any further explanation, its pretty clear without anything else. [21:12] we have used it, and linked to it already [21:12] otherwise, i'm ok if we just bless it, and we can of course modify if needed [21:12] editing out the empty section first of course :) [21:13] if someone wants to action editing it, and then we can approve on merit [21:14] i can edit it [21:14] edited. [21:14] so we vote? [21:14] yeah! ;) [21:15] Sure! [21:15] [VOTE] approve the mentoring page [21:15] Please vote on: approve the mentoring page. [21:15] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [21:15] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [21:15] +1 [21:15] +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [21:15] +1 [21:15] +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [21:15] +1 [21:15] +1 received from ts2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [21:15] #endvote [21:15] uh [21:15] [ENDVOTE] [21:15] Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3 [21:16] Pici: can you edit again, remove the draft label? [21:16] topyli: doing so now. [21:16] Pici: and uncomment the category [21:16] thanks. that's that [21:17] [TOPIC] Burnout strategy for operators [21:17] New Topic: Burnout strategy for operators [21:17] this is jussi's item [21:17] this is something we'll find difficult to make policy for [21:17] i agree with that on priciple, but i don't know how to suggest vacations for ops [21:18] i know how to say "you need a time out" but i don't know how to make it official [21:19] well, we can force the "time out", but I'd really hate to do that [21:19] I'd like to think our ops are understanding enough to take the time off when we suggest it to them [21:19] * st33med gets out the dunce cap [21:19] Time out! [21:20] we need to create a culture where we trust each other to tell usually when we appear tense [21:20] we could have something on the operator guidelines about monitoring your fellow ops' stress levels [21:20] exactly [21:22] hmm [21:22] it should be a self-enforced thing, where the council would only get involved when extream situations zrise [21:22] *arise [21:23] I'm not so sure about that. I think that any operator should be free to come to any ircc member with a report if they don't feel comfortable for some reason telling another op about it. [21:23] Stress can make people less receptive to critisim. [21:23] true [21:24] we can always act as a proxy for such things [21:25] it is, after all, our responsibility to maintain the ops team [21:25] but i don't want a policy where we encourage ops to come to the council for everyday troubles. if we write down a standard path like that, people will take it instead of actioning themselves [21:26] i think part of the issue is that -ops is public [21:26] we (ops) cant have a "quite word" easily [21:26] Then we should encourage private messaging these sort of things then. [21:26] -e [21:27] indeed those discussions are better off channel [21:27] o/ [21:27] sorry Im late [21:27] Hey Jussi [21:29] one idea I had on this, which may actually be a dud, but still worth thinking about is some sort of "timeout" ever 6/12months. [21:30] because it's such an individual thing, that may be difficult [21:30] even if you dont think you need it/ dont need it, it still isnt such a bad thing [21:31] * Pici hmms [21:31] on the other hand, our real jobs have mandatory vacations you *have* to take, because otherwise some people would never take one and just die at office [21:31] exactly the concept Im thinking of [21:31] My job doesn't have that. [21:32] oh. it's the law here [21:32] I think we should encourage people to take time off from IRC, but I'm against forcing it. [21:32] personally i think we need a culture change rather thanalysis pure polucy [21:32] ts2: agreed [21:33] how are you envisioning changing the culture? [21:33] silly auto compleation [21:34] I dont think it should be pure policy, but I do think policy should be part of it [21:34] jussi01: there is no easy way, but it's the way i think it _should_ be [21:34] Education is a good way to alert people of burnout [21:34] perhaps it could be a non enforced, but scheduled thing. If we schedule the holidays, and say, that while you dont have to take it, we encourage you too. [21:34] we need some policy to inforce it if absolutely needed [21:35] but pure policy will not work [21:35] and actually do it ouselves also. [21:36] how about "please take a time out sometimes" in the guidelines, with an addititional "the ircc may enforce a timeout" or something along those lines? [21:36] it'll be difficult to arrange holidays for ops and keep time-zones filled [21:36] at a minimum, a lot more admin [21:37] How do you suppose that we would enforce a timeout? Remove operator privleges? Bans? [21:37] I don't like the sound of it myself. [21:37] jussi01: we have a limited term anyway, ops are theoretically forever [21:37] time out schould be encouraged, right now i think theres a bit of a tabu about it [21:38] which is why i talk about culture [21:38] ts2: exactly, hence my suggestion of scheduling them, making them somewhat "official" [21:38] which can be easily managed with a script that interfaces with LP. [21:39] I don't think we need a technical solution for this. [21:39] not sure if a script should be used [21:40] it should be 90% culture, backed up with 10% policy [21:40] perhaps having a simple sign up sheet, where people can advise that they will not be around? [21:41] and encouraging people to take holidays, along with some burnout education? [21:41] sure, we need some notification system [21:41] Perhaps the burnout education can be included in the ops hours we have been talking about? [21:41] Replace the sign out sheet with a calenar, where people can mark when they're taking time off. [21:41] *calendar [21:42] we did have something like that planned for the bt2 [21:42] Pici: +1 [21:42] We did? [21:42] Pici: kinda, I suggested it - think its on the gobby doc [21:43] so for now, perhaps just a shared google calendar? [21:43] I think thats a good first step. It'll be useful anyway to know when people are taking extended time off. [21:44] how long are we suggesting people take off= [21:44] ? [21:44] maybe just giving people the opitunity to msrk their time off will be a catalist [21:44] ts2: I agree [21:45] i think at least 2 weeks in the year, but its individual [21:45] so, an amendment to the op guidelines and a shared calender then. [21:46] a message on the ML too, to advertise [21:46] shall we have a vote on it? [21:46] Whats the amendment going to say? Just encourage time off to fend off burnout? [21:47] people dont realise how critical time off is for our ops [21:47] Pici: with an encouragement to take at least 2 weeks [21:47] jussi01: okay, as long as we're not forcing it. [21:47] it should also encourage ops to try and recognize burnout signs in others and to talk to them [21:48] es [21:48] topyli: +1 [21:48] sounds good to me. [21:48] we can work on the wording later [21:48] i think if we talk to eachother more about it, it wll become less of an issue [21:48] agreed [21:49] ok, let me figure out something votable :) [21:50] [VOTE] amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off [21:50] Please vote on: amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off. [21:50] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [21:50] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [21:50] +1 [21:50] +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [21:50] +1 [21:50] +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [21:51] +1 [21:51] +1 received from Pici. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [21:51] +1 [21:51] +1 received from ts2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [21:51] [ENDVOTE] [21:51] Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4 [21:51] [ACTION] council to work on guidelines amendment [21:52] ACTION received: council to work on guidelines amendment [21:52] that's not a real action is it :\ [21:52] not really :P [21:53] let's admit it's not actionable yet :) [21:53] anything else? [21:53] topyli: you can action someone to get the calendar done. [21:53] but not me, as I always screw gcal up [21:54] Ill work on the amendment [21:54] I wouldn't mind putting together the email once we have the other two things done. [21:54] hrm. we can't use the ircc calendar [21:55] i'll create a new one, let's figure out how we get it shared with all the right people [21:55] if only lp had a calendar ;) [21:55] [ACTION] jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment [21:55] ACTION received: jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment [21:56] [ACTION] topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team [21:56] ACTION received: topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team [21:56] I suppose we could use LP to send out an email to our operator teams... or we should have a separate operator mailing list. [21:56] I think it has to be limited to ops in the core chans, otherwise it gets too big, no? [21:57] Right [21:58] it's always a good idea for all ops, but core ops are usually under more presur [21:58] ok, so any new bugs? any stadard items we need to follow up on? [21:58] no new bugs [21:58] I think that was a productive meeting. [21:58] we could encourage other teams to create similar systems [21:59] * ts2 closed the guadex(?) bue earlier [21:59] for their ops [21:59] ts2: oh yea, so we have 50% less bugs! [21:59] Pici: indeed [21:59] yeah! [21:59] :) [21:59] hehe [21:59] #endmeeting [21:59] Meeting finished at 15:59. [21:59] excellent! [22:00] good meeting, sorry I missed some [22:00] laters [22:00] i'll do the standard chores tomorrow, it's late [22:00] Mr. Burns returns [22:00] excellent [22:01] thanks guys :) [22:01] please don't make me type anymore :)