[21:03]  * Pici looks around
[21:03] <topyli> irc council meeting?
[21:03] <topyli> are we here? Pici nhandler jussi01 tsimpson ?
[21:04] <Pici> I suppose
[21:04] <topyli> hi
[21:04] <Pici> I'm not sure if Jussi is going to make it
[21:04] <topyli> i know he's busy, been popping up on irc from time to time
[21:05] <ts2> mostly
[21:05] <topyli> hi ts2
[21:06] <ts2> I wont be too active, as it takes forever to type ;)
[21:07] <topyli> you can say "yeah!" and "no!" and vote :)
[21:07] <ts2> yeah!
[21:07] <topyli> :)
[21:07] <Pici> woo
[21:08] <topyli> i can chair if nobody feels ambitious, but i'll probably only do the chores some time tomorrow
[21:08] <Pici> Fine with me
[21:09] <topyli> okay
[21:09] <topyli> #startmeeting
[21:09] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:09. The chair is topyli.
[21:09] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:09] <topyli> [TOPIC] Review the Mentoring  page for approval/rejection
[21:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review the Mentoring  page for approval/rejection
[21:10] <topyli> i had a look today and fixed a couple of typos. what's the "conclusion" section supposed to contain?
[21:10] <topyli> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring
[21:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Mentoring
[21:10] <ts2> I'm not too sure, i dont think we need it
[21:10] <Pici> I'm not sure, do we even need it?
[21:11] <topyli> i'll be happy enough without it
[21:11] <ts2> it was just there from the first template
[21:11] <Pici> I don't think the page needs any further explanation, its pretty clear without anything else.
[21:12] <ts2> we have used it, and linked to it already
[21:12] <topyli> otherwise, i'm ok if we just bless it, and we can of course modify if needed
[21:12] <topyli> editing out the empty section first of course :)
[21:13] <ts2> if someone wants to action editing it, and then we can approve on merit
[21:14] <topyli> i can edit it
[21:14] <Pici> edited.
[21:14] <topyli> so we vote?
[21:14] <ts2> yeah! ;)
[21:15] <Pici> Sure!
[21:15] <topyli> [VOTE] approve the mentoring page
[21:15] <MootBot> Please vote on:  approve the mentoring page.
[21:15] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:15] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:15] <Pici> +1
[21:15] <MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:15] <topyli> +1
[21:15] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:15] <ts2> +1
[21:15] <MootBot> +1 received from ts2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:15] <topyli> #endvote
[21:15] <topyli> uh
[21:15] <topyli> [ENDVOTE]
[21:15] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[21:16] <topyli> Pici: can you edit again, remove the draft label?
[21:16] <Pici> topyli: doing so now.
[21:16] <ts2> Pici: and uncomment the category
[21:16] <topyli> thanks. that's that
[21:17] <topyli> [TOPIC] Burnout strategy for operators
[21:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Burnout strategy for operators
[21:17] <topyli> this is jussi's item
[21:17] <ts2> this is something we'll find difficult to make policy for
[21:17] <topyli> i agree with that on priciple, but i don't know how to suggest vacations for ops
[21:18] <topyli> i know how to say "you need a time out" but i don't know how to make it official
[21:19] <ts2> well, we can force the "time out", but I'd really hate to do that
[21:19] <Pici> I'd like to think our ops are understanding enough to take the time off when we suggest it to them
[21:19]  * st33med gets out the dunce cap
[21:19] <st33med> Time out!
[21:20] <ts2> we need to create a culture where we trust each other to tell usually when we appear tense
[21:20] <topyli> we could have something on the operator guidelines about monitoring your fellow ops' stress levels
[21:20] <topyli> exactly
[21:22] <Pici> hmm
[21:22] <ts2> it should be a self-enforced thing, where the council would only get involved when extream situations zrise
[21:22] <ts2> *arise
[21:23] <Pici> I'm not so sure about that.  I think that any operator should be free to come to any ircc member with a report if they don't feel comfortable for some reason telling another op about it.
[21:23] <Pici> Stress can make people less receptive to critisim.
[21:23] <ts2> true
[21:24] <ts2> we can always act as a proxy for such things
[21:25] <ts2> it is, after all, our responsibility to maintain the ops team
[21:25] <topyli> but i don't want a policy where we encourage ops to come to the council for everyday troubles. if we write down a standard path like that, people will take it instead of actioning themselves
[21:26] <ts2> i think part of the issue is that -ops is public
[21:26] <ts2> we (ops) cant have a "quite word" easily
[21:26] <Pici> Then we should encourage private messaging these sort of things then.
[21:26] <ts2> -e
[21:27] <topyli> indeed those discussions are better off channel
[21:27] <jussi01> o/
[21:27] <jussi01> sorry Im late
[21:27] <Pici> Hey Jussi
[21:29] <jussi01> one idea I had on this, which may actually be a dud, but still worth thinking about is some sort of "timeout" ever 6/12months.
[21:30] <ts2> because it's such an individual thing, that may be difficult
[21:30] <jussi01> even if you dont think you need it/ dont need it, it still isnt such a bad thing
[21:31]  * Pici hmms
[21:31] <topyli> on the other hand, our real jobs have mandatory vacations you *have* to take, because otherwise some people would never take one and just die at office
[21:31] <jussi01> exactly the concept Im thinking of
[21:31] <Pici> My job doesn't have that.
[21:32] <topyli> oh. it's the law here
[21:32] <Pici> I think we should encourage people to take time off from IRC, but I'm against forcing it.
[21:32] <ts2> personally i think we need a culture change rather thanalysis pure polucy
[21:32] <Pici> ts2: agreed
[21:33] <jussi01> how are you envisioning changing the culture?
[21:33] <ts2> silly auto compleation
[21:34] <jussi01> I dont think it should be pure policy, but I do think policy should be part of it
[21:34] <ts2> jussi01: there is no easy way, but it's the way i think it _should_ be
[21:34] <Pici> Education is a good way to alert people of burnout
[21:34] <jussi01> perhaps it could be a non enforced, but scheduled thing. If we schedule the holidays, and say, that while you dont have to take it, we encourage you too.
[21:34] <ts2> we need some policy to inforce it if absolutely needed
[21:35] <ts2> but pure policy will not work
[21:35] <jussi01> and actually do it ouselves also.
[21:36] <topyli> how about "please take a time out sometimes" in the guidelines, with an addititional "the ircc may enforce a timeout" or something along those lines?
[21:36] <ts2> it'll be difficult to arrange holidays for ops and keep time-zones filled
[21:36] <ts2> at a minimum, a lot more admin
[21:37] <Pici> How do you suppose that we would enforce a timeout? Remove operator privleges? Bans?
[21:37] <Pici> I don't like the sound of it myself.
[21:37] <topyli> jussi01: we have a limited term anyway, ops are theoretically forever
[21:37] <ts2> time out schould be encouraged, right now i think theres a bit of a tabu about it
[21:38] <ts2> which is why i talk about culture
[21:38] <jussi01> ts2: exactly, hence my suggestion of scheduling them, making them somewhat "official"
[21:38] <jussi01> which can be easily managed with a script that interfaces with LP.
[21:39] <Pici> I don't think we need a technical solution for this.
[21:39] <ts2> not sure if a script should be used
[21:40] <ts2> it should be 90% culture, backed up with 10% policy
[21:40] <jussi01> perhaps having a simple sign up sheet, where people can advise that they will not be around?
[21:41] <jussi01> and encouraging people to take holidays, along with some burnout education?
[21:41] <ts2> sure, we need some notification system
[21:41] <jussi01> Perhaps the burnout education can be included in the ops hours we have been talking about?
[21:41] <Pici> Replace the sign out sheet with a calenar, where people can mark when they're taking time off.
[21:41] <Pici> *calendar
[21:42] <jussi01> we did have something like that planned for the bt2
[21:42] <jussi01> Pici: +1
[21:42] <Pici> We did?
[21:42] <jussi01> Pici: kinda, I suggested it - think its on the gobby doc
[21:43] <jussi01> so for now, perhaps just a shared google calendar?
[21:43] <Pici> I think thats a good first step.  It'll be useful anyway to know when people are taking extended time off.
[21:44] <jussi01> how long are we suggesting people take off=
[21:44] <jussi01> ?
[21:44] <ts2> maybe just giving people the opitunity to msrk their time off will be a catalist
[21:44] <Pici> ts2: I agree
[21:45] <ts2> i think at least 2 weeks in the year, but its individual
[21:45] <jussi01> so, an amendment to the op guidelines and a shared calender then.
[21:46] <topyli> a message on the ML too, to advertise
[21:46] <jussi01> shall we have a vote on it?
[21:46] <Pici> Whats the amendment going to say?  Just encourage time off to fend off burnout?
[21:47] <ts2> people dont realise how critical time off is for our ops
[21:47] <jussi01> Pici: with an encouragement to take at least 2 weeks
[21:47] <Pici> jussi01: okay, as long as we're not forcing it.
[21:47] <topyli> it should also encourage ops to try and recognize burnout signs in others and to talk to them
[21:48] <jussi01> es
[21:48] <jussi01> topyli: +1
[21:48] <Pici> sounds good to me.
[21:48] <topyli> we can work on the wording later
[21:48] <ts2> i think if we talk to eachother more about it, it wll become less of an issue
[21:48] <jussi01> agreed
[21:49] <topyli> ok, let me figure out something votable :)
[21:50] <topyli> [VOTE] amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off
[21:50] <MootBot> Please vote on:  amend operator guidelines to encourage sufficient time off, and create a calendar system for ops to mark time off.
[21:50] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:50] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:50] <jussi01> +1
[21:50] <MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:50] <topyli> +1
[21:50] <MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:51] <Pici> +1
[21:51] <MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:51] <ts2> +1
[21:51] <MootBot> +1 received from ts2. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[21:51] <topyli> [ENDVOTE]
[21:51] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[21:51] <topyli> [ACTION] council to work on guidelines amendment
[21:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  council to work on guidelines amendment
[21:52] <topyli> that's not a real action is it :\
[21:52] <jussi01> not really :P
[21:53] <topyli> let's admit it's not actionable yet :)
[21:53] <topyli> anything else?
[21:53] <jussi01> topyli: you can action someone to get the calendar done.
[21:53] <jussi01> but not me, as I always screw gcal up
[21:54] <jussi01> Ill work on the amendment
[21:54] <Pici> I wouldn't mind putting together the email once we have the other two things done.
[21:54] <topyli> hrm. we can't use the ircc calendar
[21:55] <topyli> i'll create a new one, let's figure out how we get it shared with all the right people
[21:55] <ts2> if only lp had a calendar ;)
[21:55] <topyli> [ACTION] jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment
[21:55] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jussi01 to draft ops guidelines amendment
[21:56] <topyli> [ACTION] topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team
[21:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to create vacation calendar for the ops team
[21:56] <Pici> I suppose we could use LP to send out an email to our operator teams... or we should have a separate operator mailing list.
[21:56] <jussi01> I think it has to be limited to ops in the core chans, otherwise it gets too big, no?
[21:57] <Pici> Right
[21:58] <ts2> it's always a good idea for all ops, but core ops are usually under more presur
[21:58] <jussi01> ok, so any new bugs? any stadard items we need to follow up on?
[21:58] <topyli> no new bugs
[21:58] <Pici> I think that was a productive meeting.
[21:58] <topyli> we could encourage other teams to create similar systems
[21:59]  * ts2 closed the guadex(?) bue earlier
[21:59] <topyli> for their ops
[21:59] <topyli> ts2: oh yea, so we have 50% less bugs!
[21:59] <topyli> Pici: indeed
[21:59] <ts2> yeah!
[21:59] <ts2> :)
[21:59] <topyli> hehe
[21:59] <topyli> #endmeeting
[21:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:59.
[21:59] <jussi01> excellent!
[22:00] <jussi01> good meeting, sorry I missed some
[22:00] <jussi01> laters
[22:00] <topyli> i'll do the standard chores tomorrow, it's late
[22:00] <ts2> Mr. Burns returns
[22:00] <Pici> excellent
[22:01] <topyli> thanks guys :)
[22:01] <ts2>  please don't make me type anymore :)