[02:54] Banned from #ubuntu? [02:54] Why? [03:01] The question being asked here, of course, is why I'm banned from #ubuntu, which appears to be the case [03:02] Andorin: give me a minute please [03:03] Andorin: ahh I see, you are using shellium [03:03] IdleOne: Yeah? [03:04] We have had to set a temporary ban on all shellium users and you get forwarded here [03:04] due to spam problems from some users [03:04] Oh, so it's not a ban on me specifically. [03:04] no [03:04] not that I can see [03:05] Okay, IdleOne, thank you [03:05] let me fix [03:05] Andorin: can you try joining now please [03:06] ok I see you joined. Don't make me regret this :) [03:06] IdleOne: Yeah, promise I'm not a spammer. Thanks again. [03:06] if you have any other issues please feel free to come back [03:06] * Andorin nod [03:12] good evening, i'm an admin at shellium, and we just noticed shellium.org is banned on #ubuntu.. can i inform why? [03:14] brabo: Bryanstein is also here and I believe he is up to date [03:14] aah okay [03:14] nvm then :) [03:14] brabo: :) [03:15] thanks [03:15] :) [03:15] brabo: hopefully it will be removed soon [03:15] i hope so too :) [03:15] in the mean time [03:15] shellium users are being forwarded here and we are setting exempts [03:15] aha [03:15] that is good news [03:16] bit of a pain for all but best we can do for now [03:16] i can inform our ppl of this? [03:16] sure [03:16] sweet :) [03:16] they'll be hapy to know that this way they can still get on #ubuntu :) [03:17] brabo: it is nothing against shellium, just had some problem users and one of the ops felt it was needed [03:18] hehe np, i can understand that [03:19] thanks for the info IdleOne [03:19] :) [03:19] cya [09:05] iam here to discuss my ban [09:05] hi indus [09:06] indus: how would you like to proceed ? [09:07] you proceed and ill hear what you want to say [09:08] ikonia: hi. indus wants to resolve the #ubuntu ban [09:08] ? [09:09] indus: the only real issue is your refusal to follow instruction, if you can agree to do that, we have no issue [09:10] I've explained how we can discuss things if you do have an isse (eg: in this channel) but in #ubuntu we need to keep the chatter down [09:10] thats all good but i have an issue with you [09:10] that's something you need to resolve then, [09:11] it cannot be resolved if you keep pressing the trigger [09:11] its not a level playing field [09:11] indus: if a member of the operator team asks you to do something in the channel, just do it, I've explained if you're not comfortable with it, we can discuss it in here [09:11] hmm [09:11] so thats a rule of thumb then [09:12] indus: that's a different issue, and not resolvable at that. the "playing field" is not "level" [09:12] pretty much, we don't ask you to do stuff for fun, or to be mean [09:12] i do not like moderators telling people 'your advice ruins systems' when ubuntu itself comes with no guarantee [09:13] all the help is done in good faith assuming its correct [09:13] ahhh now we are changing the topic again [09:13] indus: we are here to discuss your ban resolution, lets deal with that [09:13] i agree with the ban thing , you say ';just do as op says' and discuss it here , i agree to it [09:14] but what about my suggestion,? is this not the place to discuss ? [09:14] or its the irc council ? [09:14] who havent bothered to reply after a week [09:14] that's great, so if I lift the ban you'll try to keep the random noise down and just listen when operators tell you to stop/do something ? [09:14] topyli: you deal with this, the attitude stinks again [09:14] yes if i have an issue ill come in here to discuss [09:14] indus: topyli can resolve your ban [09:15] there is no attitude here, this is the 2nd time a reply hasnt arrived from the council , what do you expect ? [09:15] pateince [09:15] ikonia: yeah, sorry about mistakenly assuming we can stay in topic [09:15] Pici promised you a reply [09:15] not that you have any obligation to reply [09:16] indus: please stay on topic here. the topic is the ban [09:16] ok [09:16] confused since you are here also [09:16] indus: then I'll drop out [09:16] ikonia, no stay [09:16] ikonia, you can resolve it [09:16] no, I'm not adding to confussion [09:16] i was talking about topyli [09:17] since i was talking to him in #council and he came in here [09:17] as I've said topyli can take this forward. [09:17] indus: how about the ban? [09:17] dont read too much into the tone , [09:17] I just did and I don't like it - so I'll drop out [09:17] topyli, ya iam on that [09:18] i dont seem to understand [09:18] i said ill discuss only ban in here now [09:18] so lets do that then [09:18] good idea [09:19] sorry, i have to go now [09:19] now, the way we can resolve the ban is to make sure you understand the channel rules and that you can follow them in the future, even if it's been difficult in the past [09:20] i follow [09:20] i guess i should discuss an issue in here and not in channel [09:20] my only mistake probably [09:21] indus: we also have #ubuntu-irc-helpers - for discussing what is happening in channel, and how to best help people [09:21] questioning the guidelines themselves, or how operators uphold them is a completely unrelated topic and will only add confusion to the discussion. [09:21] that too [09:22] true [09:22] but.... [09:22] its still not clear where to discuss that [09:23] so can i be unbanned for now [09:24] the guidelines are derived from the code of conduct and from common sense about how irc works. it's not something we simply vote on or decide through a shouting contest [09:25] sorry, i dont want to comment on it [09:25] you and i can discuss them all day (somewhere else) but it's not easy to change the CoC or the knowledge gained from years of life on irc that our operators team has [09:26] each of your statements can elicit a comment from me, but as said before, i dont have the will to argue it now [09:27] indeed ony the ban is relevant now [09:28] if you simply ask to be unbanned, it's not happening. you can, however demonstrate that you understand why you are banned and that we probably won't have to ban you again [09:29] you've been banned and re-banned many times, so it's very important that you understand why [09:31] indus: hello? [09:31] yes] [09:32] topyli, check your records, this is the 2nd time [09:32] oh. if so, that's good [09:32] if you have a set of things a banned user can do to demonstrate to prove , then please tell me so [09:33] or i cant do anything other than say ;'yes i agree' [09:33] sorry but limitations or irc [09:33] as far as being banned , i already told i understand why i was banned a few min ago [09:33] anyways this is taking too much time [09:34] i have to go now, ill be back in 1 hour [09:34] bye [09:34] okay, bye [09:34] sorry if that is rude [09:34] it's not the second time he's been banned [09:34] hence why he says "you have it in for me and keep banning me" to me [09:34] i seem to remember more too [09:34] if that was twice he wouldn't have an issue [09:40] i might not be here waiting for indus in an hour, i'm a busy birthday boy and who knows what will happen :) [09:57] ok [09:58] back [10:03] topyli, hi [10:15] hello indus [10:16] sorry , had to go for lunch [10:16] a man cannot live from beer alone! [10:16] hmm true [10:16] i dont drink though :D [10:17] shall we get back to the ban thing [10:18] yes why not. by the way, i see many more than two in our tracker, you're prettifying the past a little [10:19] its 2 including this , both by ikonia [10:19] but you should stop the fine toothed comb approach [10:20] i dont blame you though, humans dont like to be pointed out mistakes [10:20] so you go through my past history [10:21] i did [10:22] good [10:24] hello? [10:25] yes [10:25] [10:25] what is it you need now ? [10:25] i still need to know why your ban should be removed again [10:27] because its been a week since the ban, and its a temp ban [10:27] technically speaking [10:28] bans are (almost) never permanent, that's for sure [10:28] i know [10:29] usually, users resolve them by showing that they understand the rules, and agree to use our channels according to them [10:29] topyli, i already stated before, tell me how to 'show that i understand' [10:29] like i already said, i would like to know why you think you are banned [10:30] i was banned for not listening to an op [10:30] why was the operator talking to you in the first place? [10:30] i have sent you the logs in the email you can read them [10:31] or ask the op in here too [10:31] i know [10:31] i also know why the issue came to being. i would like to see if *you* know [10:31] why wouldnt i know [10:32] the op made it loud and clear the last time i was in here [10:32] but his explanation today was better though [10:32] 'follow first' ask questions later [10:32] by the way, iirc you set us the log from this channel, i had to look up the original from #ubuntu elsewhere [10:33] ah ok sorry [10:33] the root cause of the 'problem' was in #ubuntu [10:33] i only sent ops one yes [10:33] why the quotes? [10:34] yes because its my displeasure at the ban [10:34] i think a ban is always a real problem, no quotes needed [10:34] iam too far away from irc world it seems [10:34] why don't you agree with the ban? [10:35] i feel the op is trigger happy [10:35] in this case, the first time was fine though [10:35] just my feeling [10:35] you dont have to agree or anythinh [10:35] nobody's happy if they have to ban a user [10:36] anyways, i have decided not to use #ubuntu for a while [10:36] its too rigid [10:37] it is a big channel, it doesn't need offtopic chat [10:37] unless an #ubuntu-unofficial springs up [10:37] if it does it will be removed [10:37] lets move on [10:38] ikonia, what do you mean removed? [10:38] you have no authority on what channels people start [10:38] its a free network [10:38] in the ubuntu name space the council do [10:38] so as I said, it will be removed [10:38] then it will be on another network [10:38] actually - sorry topyli [10:38] indus: we control the #ubuntu-* namespace [10:39] hmm [10:39] yeah well what ikonia said [10:39] i need to read more on this [10:39] so back to topic [10:39] nice choice of words though , 'control' [10:39] indus: let's talk about the ban when you do want to return to ubuntu, no need to waste my birthday on this if you don't even want to join it [10:40] topyli, lets talk about it [10:40] happy birthday anyway [10:40] #ubuntu not ubuntu, sorry [10:40] thanks a lot [10:41] really your birthday? [10:41] ok [10:41] then i will speak with another op maybe [10:41] thanks a lot.) [10:41] uh [10:41] dont wnat to upset anyone on a birthday [10:41] grrr ok back to topic [10:41] sorry [10:42] so what i mean is, i will only occasionally drop in ubuntu ,i dont want to drop in regularly [10:43] and dont want to get into this ban discussion again and again [10:43] well, the way to proceed is to resolve this ban and not get banned again [10:44] topyli, i will get banned again since i cannot conform to all your rules, its true [10:44] even though i try to [10:44] and no idea when an op might not like it and kick me [10:44] you do have ideas [10:44] people tell you to stop [10:44] you then refuse [10:44] that is the problem [10:44] ya last time i did [10:45] true but i do random chat occasionally [10:45] no - on multiple occasions [10:45] you DO get warnings [10:45] yes, and you get warned about it [10:45] ops do warn you, removing is rather extreme actually [10:45] yes warnings are good , thats wy you are there [10:45] so the problem is not that you don't know and get kicked, the problem is you do know and won't stop [10:45] lets be honest about it here [10:46] also, other users might ask you to stop an uncomfortable or offtopic discussion, it doesn't need to be an operator [10:46] lets not get into the 'honest' agument here [10:46] i myself tell other users about being off topic [10:46] indus: we are being honest [10:46] but the problem here is , humans have a habit to discuss the bad and ignore the good [10:46] i dont blame you [10:46] topyli: I'm sorry to step in, but I'm not happy with this miss-leading information [10:47] an example would be, you told me i messed upa few machines, if you wish i can bring in users here whose machines i have fixed [10:47] you have to decide which is better [10:47] ikonia: it's good to keep things clear, no problem there [10:47] indus: I'll rephrase that if you want "you've given poor quality advice which could cause the users issue" [10:47] sure i have [10:48] and it wil happen again [10:48] it shouldn't [10:48] thats done in good faith of course [10:48] indus: either you don't want to follow the rules (like it looks like), or you don't understand them (like you say). neither is very good [10:48] you have a real issue with authority [10:49] i feel the ubuntu channels work fine with self regulation [10:49] nvm [10:49] ideally, they should [10:50] sometimes we still need operators to step in [10:50] sure you do [10:50] if they work fine with self regulation, why do you not follow whe people regulate you [10:50] maybe the context is unclear at that moment [10:51] ok, now I think you're not being honet, so I'll again back out of this [10:51] and please dont keep telling me or anyone else for that matter ;' you do not like to follow rules' [10:51] indus: please let me now when you wish to return to the actual issue [10:51] if you dont like banning someone, its the same with me, i dont like breaking rules intentionally [10:51] indus: I'm telling you a fact - you don't like to follow the rules, and you've stated ubuntu is too rigidi, so you "don't like to follow the rules" [10:52] I'm out (apologies topyli and indus) [10:52] no need to apologise ikonia [10:52] why the hell are you apologising? [10:53] indus: if you want to philosophise about irc governance and such, you can write an article on your blog or maybe compose an email to the irc team mailing list for discussion [10:53] ya ok [10:53] if you want to resolve your ban at sime time, come here [10:53] iam here for that [10:54] but the discussion keeps moving astray [10:54] so please get down to business so i can go to the pub [10:54] ah yes ok [10:55] the status of the issue is that right now i see no reason to remove the ban [10:55] why [10:56] because you either don't understand the rules, or you refuse to follow them [10:56] i disagree with a few or maybe 1 or 2 [10:56] not with the rules sorry [10:56] the way its enforced [10:56] so please do not ,misquote me [10:57] you're not required to agree with them, just to follow them [10:57] ya i already said it, i will follow them but i dont agree how its enforced [10:57] ah. well, it's generally a good idea to listen to ops when they give you advice, they're not really negotiating but giving instructions [10:58] i always listen sire, atleast 99 % of the time [10:58] and mostly i also help other users follow the rules [10:58] iceroot called the ops in #ubuntu (lucy) [10:58] if your offtopic dicussion is pointed out, you should stop it. when you're specifically *asked* to stop it, that should be a very clear hint [10:59] ok [10:59] my mistake on that [11:00] i will listen, but i will drop in here to argue [11:00] if thats fine [11:00] and i appreciate if iam not called an 'idiot' like last time [11:01] i don't like the idea of dropping by in -ops to argue the rules [11:01] well, i did sent an email to council but nothing happened [11:01] iceroot called the ops in #ubuntu (lucy) [11:02] yes, the reply is very late, apologies [11:02] yes, the reply is very late, apologies :( [11:02] grr [11:02] damn this keyboard [11:02] ? [11:03] the council seems to be a bit of a summer vacation mode [11:03] ok i guess i shouldnt discuss the rules [11:03] but i wanted to try it anyway with the email to council to see if it works [11:03] anyways [11:03] i agree to listen to an op in #ubuntu [11:04] it still might! but this channel isn't for council business [11:04] though i might or might not agree [11:04] is that fair enough [11:05] it's a good start. there are 1500 non-operators on the channel though, they're the part that actually matter [11:06] iam not sure i understood that [11:07] whether or not someone is an operator is of little importance unless the disruption is so bad that someone needs to be removed [11:08] the rules do not exist to serve operators [11:10] ill let you keep the benefit of doubt, that in your judgement my behaviour was disrupting the channel [11:11] you were offtopic (again), and when notified about this you insisted on continuing and in fact said as much [11:12] ya i know it can be irritating [11:13] that's a start. actually not doing it would be awesome [11:13] anyway, two hours is enough for me. please return when you want to actually fix this issue [11:13] 2 hours? [11:14] i want it to be fixed now i thought [11:14] this chat strted two hours ago, and we failed. let's try again another day [11:14] failed ? where [11:15] are you unbanned? no. we failed to resolve the issue. let's return to it another day [11:15] i'd say this kind of matter should take 10 minutes maximum [11:16] next time, let's do it properly like that. not today though [11:16] wow [11:16] i agreed alteast 2 times to follow [11:16] you wnat to waste more of my time [11:16] have a great day, i'm off to leech beer from my friends by telling them it's my birthday [11:16] topyli, happy bd! [11:17] thanks. like my plan? [11:17] i would like another operator to resolve this [11:17] topyli, sounds like it could work:) [11:19] what is going on here [11:21] hello? [11:24] I guess its my fault i come in here expecting fair results [11:25] is anyone here willing to help me [11:27] another day most likely. please review what we discussed above before returning [11:27] theire is nothing more i would like to review or discuss [11:27] i have made myself clear [11:27] if you do not have time , assign another op for it [11:28] its been a week now [11:28] ok. please return when you do have something to review or discuss [11:28] why are you doing this ? [11:28] didnt i make it clear i will listen to an op alteast 3 times now [11:29] isnt that the point you have also been making for the last 2 hours [11:29] or you are trying to test my patience till i snap ? [11:30] ill let you keep the benefit of doubt, that in your judgement my behaviour was disrupting the channel [11:30] you were offtopic (again), and when notified about this you insisted on continuing and in fact said as much [11:30] ya i know it can be irritating [11:30] that's a start. actually not doing it would be awesome [11:30] the above discussion [11:30] iam actually in agreement here if you see [11:31] so why exactly are you not convinced now ? [11:31] do you really think i can add anything more now ? [11:35] ok , ill be here in evening to beg again, thanks for all the help [11:51] is anyone here willing to discuss my ban [11:53] topyli, ikonia [12:02] * indus waits [12:02] whats a net slpit [12:04] hi guys [12:04] this is really important for me to sort out soon [12:05] could you please help me [12:06] ikonia, hi are you there? [12:08] bazhang, hi, can you resolve my problem [12:11] is there no one here ? [12:13] indus: patience, please [12:20] ok [12:25] topyli, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!! [12:27] topyli: happy birthday [12:35] jungli ban evading in -ot again [12:43] huh. Wasn't topyli's birthday a while ago? [12:43] that was someone else , the Hat or H 00k iirc [12:43] whee thanks guys! Pici yep, a year ago [12:44] oh noez menza's [12:44] @btlogin [12:46] topyli: You may want to update your Google Profile then... because it says your birthday is *June* 20th. [12:46] Pici: oh! thanks :) [12:46] topyli: Anyway, Happy Birthday! [12:47] I need more caffeine, I read 'bandodge' as 'bondage' [12:47] thanks. maybe i should set a different birthday in all services, have a dozen birthdays [12:47] jungli again with ban evasion [12:47] heh [12:47] Pici: it's possible it's one of my typos [12:47] ikonia: I banned him yesterday too in -ot [12:48] I spoke to marienz about it in #freenode the other day as it was 3 in one day [12:48] with you that would make it a 4th [12:48] he has been nothing but trouble [12:49] I know [12:49] i think that was my fualt for unbanning him too early [12:50] no, he's just a child [12:50] wtf [12:50] why i am banned ? [12:50] he knows the rules, and can abide by them when it suits him [12:50] pretend that bazhang comment was for you [12:51] ikonia: you stupid why you banned me what i do wrong ? [12:51] it was [12:51] only one time [12:51] i cnage my nick [12:51]