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aday1wers: hey! what's cookin?13:06
thorwilhi wers, aday113:07
aday1thorwil: hi :)13:07
wershi aday1 and thorwil13:07
werswho's familiar with the windicators?13:07
aday1wers: mpt :)13:08
wershow about you thorwil ?13:08
thorwilread a bit about it, saw the wireframes13:09
thorwili pinged mpt in #ayatana13:09
wersi wonder how it will work with upstream stuff13:09
aday1wers: it was rejected as a gnome module, and gnome shell kills it when it launches13:11
wersaday1, oooh13:11
wers'cause I'm discussing the Firefox button with Mozilla's UX13:12
aday1wers: the gnome shell designs for this stuff are here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Guidelines/SystemStatus/13:12
aday1wers: hang on, i'm getting confused. thought you were talking about the notification area...13:13
aday1wers: not sure how that relates to windicators, implementation-wise13:13
wersaday1, ooh13:14
wersmy main concern is client side buttons on the window border13:14
wersi wonder how the windicators project would affect this13:14
aday1wers: tricky one. afaik, windicators are designed to add optional additional functionality. so there shouldn't be a reason not to use them from a ux pov13:16
wersyeah. we just have to know the technical limitations and stuff. hmm13:17
aday1thorwil, wers: i wrote this earlier today: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted any comments/ideas?13:17
aday1i also updated the heuristic evaluation page: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation13:18
werslooks good13:18
thorwiladay1: 4 and 5 are not really separate points13:19
wersaday1, how do people land on those pages?13:19
aday1i realised that gnome doesn't have a good place to point new ux people at13:20
aday1wers: i'll be linking to it from the usability project home page. i'm thinking it could be good for the ux advocates stuff too13:20
wersaday1, that's right. if I saw something like that when I was starting, things would've been much smoother13:20
aday1thorwil: thanks, i'll change that :)13:21
wersYou know what, I think, having a meeting like this upstream would also be a good idea, yes?13:22
thorwiladay1: link to a guide on reporting/triaging bugs13:22
wersGNOME Usability meeting every week13:22
thorwilcareful with the "like this" ;)13:23
wersoh.. yes.hehe13:23
aday1wers: that's a really good idea13:24
thorwiladay1: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation doesn't make it clear if the page itself should become a resource, or if it's more about the pointers to elsewhere13:25
thorwiladay1: a line like "Simple and natural dialog" does need some explanation13:26
aday1thorwil: yeah, i'm still working on that. it's someone else's page that i only found today :)13:27
wersaday1, we can also focus on UX, as a whole, not just usability13:27
thorwilwers: i would have a hard time to separate UX and usability13:28
werslooks like the word "usability" is too conventional in GNOME that we sometimes tend to overlook the whole UX13:28
wersUX is an umbrella term for usability, information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility13:28
thorwilwers: cool. then i would have a hard time to separate usability from information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility ;)13:29
aday1wers: the emphasis on 'usability' in gnome is a historical hangover, and it's pretty entrenched. it'd be nice to move to ux, but that would be a lot of work13:29
wersaday1, let's start doing13:30
thorwilwers: to me, UX is just a neutral term, where usability implies that you deal with something measurable. i would not define the scope to be different13:30
aday1yeah, ux is a broader term. it's a bit more flexible than usability13:31
aday1the gnome usability pages include material which has nothing to do with usability :/13:31
wersaccording to ISO, UX is the perception and response to the use or anticipated use of something (which is software in this case)13:31
wersusability is just the ability of something to be used13:31
aday1wers: that's a rather narrow definition in my view13:32
wersaday1, which one?13:32
wersokay here's a more complete  one. usability involves learnability, efficiency, memorability, lack of errors, and satisfaction13:33
wersdisciplines under UX have the same goal, but they have different means and driving forces13:34
wersperhaps, the easiest one to differentiate is accessibility, which focuses on people with impairments13:35
werssee, it's driven by impairments, but the goal is just the same13:35
aday1wers: the iso one. for me, UX isn't just about usage, or the practicalities of usage13:35
thorwilto me, usability is the combination of effectiveness, efficiency and user satisfaction of a tool, in the context of a specific audience, task or set of tasks and environment13:36
aday1wers: so ux is about how software makes a person feel13:36
aday1wers: is it exciting? fun? engaging? etc...13:36
aday1wers: ux bleeds into marketing quite a bit of the time13:37
wersaday1, that's just the socio-emotional side of things. there's also physical, cognitive, and... spiritual. ahehe13:37
aday1wers: i wouldn't separate the cognitive from the emotional, but that's maybe getting a bit theoretical ;)13:37
wersI'm writing about this for a conference. I'll show my paper when it's done :D13:37
vishhey all!13:37
thorwilhi vish13:38
wersaday1, you should separate it. I recommend reading Don Norman's emotional design :)13:38
aday1vish: hey! watch out! it's getting a bit academic in here...13:38
wersaffective design is a discipline by itself13:38
aday1wers: and i would recommend that you read william james. :)13:38
wersaday1, I'll do that :D13:38
wershi vish13:39
vishaday1: haha , speaking of watching out ;)   http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en#the-file-menu  might be getting a makeover next week ;)13:39
thorwilvish: so how do you feel about the socio-economic realities of user experience design in the context of frobnicated cloud sharing services?13:39
aday1wers: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/23343/13:40
wersaday1, thanks!13:40
vishthorwil: reading that line feels like my head is spinning ;)13:40
aday1vish: cool! who/when/where/how13:41
vishaday1: mpt plans to get get that fixed as part of the HIG update13:41
vishduring guadec13:41
aday1vish: good stuff. we're having a hig writing session on the monday13:41
vishyeah , i guess during that one.13:42
vishwers: actually mpt /is/ writing the windicators guidelines...13:43
vishsomeone has to bring some sensibility there :p13:43
wersvish, cool13:43
wersand that's the reason why he's unavailable?13:44
vishwers: canonical sprint prague ,maybe13:44
aday1that's the danger of windicators. instead of solving the notification area, they could just make it worse13:44
vishaday1: +113:44
aday1anybody got anything going on they want to talk about?13:44
wersI have one.. related to windicators...13:45
wersfirefox wants to draw a button on the window border but there are issues13:45
wersthe app can't tell what's going on in the window border. it can't tell if the close min max buttons are on the left or the right or whatever13:46
wersso mozilla guys didnt include it, which makes Firefox 4 on linux look old compared to the windows counterpart13:46
wersthey also think that a firefox button will break the menu bar convention13:47
wersthe guys upstream are innovating, but gnome's conventions are restricting them13:47
wersso what do we do about this? we can't just change every menu bar and turn them into app buttons, right?13:48
vishwers: well , hbons , garett seem to favor the menubutton , so probably might happen13:48
wersnow, there's this windicators project. i'm just thinking that the work here can be used for this issue13:48
jcastrowers: the best way to start this discussion is on the ayatana mailing list13:48
aday1wers: why not?13:48
aday1vish: agreed13:48
jcastro(and check the archives for past discussions)13:48
wersvish, that's cool13:49
wersjcastro, i'll do that13:49
aday1well, maybe not every app... ;)13:49
wersaday1, yeah. that's the thing. consistency13:49
thorwilthe though of checking the ayatana ml archive sends chills down my spine13:49
wersi'll start a thread on ayatana and gnome usability MLs13:51
aday1wers: consistency is a means to an end13:54
wersaday1, what does that mean?13:54
aday1wers: but we probably do need some guidelines on writing app menus13:54
wersI agree13:54
aday1wers: the goal is to make interfaces understandable13:55
aday1wers: one way to do that is to have them consistent - so users know what to expect and how it works13:55
aday1wers: but there are lots of other ways - having clear labels, logically arranged UIs, etc13:55
wersas long as it won't alienate13:56
aday1wers: and if you do those things well, consistency isn't necessary13:56
wersthat's arguable13:56
aday1it depends on the context13:56
wersand the execution13:56
thorwil"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", but in software, there tends to be a lack of the good kind of consistency13:56
aday1ha ha13:57
aday1i presume this stuff works. google will be testing chrome13:57
jcastrowers: appmenu stuff is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu13:58
wersjcastro, thanks. checking it out13:58
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream under Integration too13:58
wersjcastro, actually, the firefox button get rids of that bar13:59
wersoops. no firefox button there. wait13:59
wersthe one on the upper left of Fx http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png&imgrefurl=http://revolver360.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/firefox-4-rc1-beta-feels-great-so-far-welcome-for-early-adopters/&usg=__W5F-HbFEgNq6ULtBwLtyXaGdBUM=&h=655&w=950&sz=436&hl=en&start=0&sig2=LLY-L055CKdG_PNZVQpNuA&tbnid=OKIqt64uMpuPoM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=193&ei=7kBITIOUDYHXcN7BkKwM&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfirefox%2B414:00
wersooh my that's a long link sorry14:01
jcastrotinyurl dude. :D14:01
wersthis one http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png14:01
wersjust like the opera button14:01
thorwilwers: will that FF button be in the corner on a maximized window?14:02
aday1how does this work with chrome on os x?14:03
wersthorwil, I think14:03
thorwilbecause that's the thing going poof if the wm buttons are on the left of it in ubuntu14:03
wersaday1, afaik, chrome draws its own window border on all platforms14:03
wersthorwil, yep. it's never been executed on Linux. the behavior I was talking about was Fx button on windows14:04
aday1wers: i'm just wondering about the global menu bar in une...14:04
wersgtk+ guys are working on client side buttons but they still don't know if and how this will work14:04
wersaday1, oh yes. that's exactly what we're avoiding14:05
wersit's really difficult to deviate from conventions because a lot of stuff do break14:06
thorwilthat's why i wish those conventions would be on a higher level14:07
thorwiltimeout ends meeting :)14:23
* thorwil pokes vish for remark about coffee/food14:23
vishthorwil: aw , dang it! I forgot! , next time :D14:36
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