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| wers | mpt? | 13:05 |
|---|---|---|
| aday1 | wers: hey! what's cookin? | 13:06 |
| thorwil | hi wers, aday1 | 13:07 |
| aday1 | thorwil: hi :) | 13:07 |
| wers | hi aday1 and thorwil | 13:07 |
| wers | who's familiar with the windicators? | 13:07 |
| aday1 | wers: mpt :) | 13:08 |
| wers | lol | 13:08 |
| wers | how about you thorwil ? | 13:08 |
| thorwil | read a bit about it, saw the wireframes | 13:09 |
| thorwil | i pinged mpt in #ayatana | 13:09 |
| wers | i wonder how it will work with upstream stuff | 13:09 |
| aday1 | wers: it was rejected as a gnome module, and gnome shell kills it when it launches | 13:11 |
| wers | aday1, oooh | 13:11 |
| wers | 'cause I'm discussing the Firefox button with Mozilla's UX | 13:12 |
| aday1 | wers: the gnome shell designs for this stuff are here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Guidelines/SystemStatus/ | 13:12 |
| aday1 | wers: hang on, i'm getting confused. thought you were talking about the notification area... | 13:13 |
| aday1 | wers: not sure how that relates to windicators, implementation-wise | 13:13 |
| wers | aday1, ooh | 13:14 |
| wers | my main concern is client side buttons on the window border | 13:14 |
| wers | i wonder how the windicators project would affect this | 13:14 |
| aday1 | wers: tricky one. afaik, windicators are designed to add optional additional functionality. so there shouldn't be a reason not to use them from a ux pov | 13:16 |
| wers | yeah. we just have to know the technical limitations and stuff. hmm | 13:17 |
| aday1 | thorwil, wers: i wrote this earlier today: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted any comments/ideas? | 13:17 |
| aday1 | i also updated the heuristic evaluation page: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation | 13:18 |
| wers | looks good | 13:18 |
| thorwil | aday1: 4 and 5 are not really separate points | 13:19 |
| wers | aday1, how do people land on those pages? | 13:19 |
| aday1 | i realised that gnome doesn't have a good place to point new ux people at | 13:20 |
| aday1 | wers: i'll be linking to it from the usability project home page. i'm thinking it could be good for the ux advocates stuff too | 13:20 |
| wers | aday1, that's right. if I saw something like that when I was starting, things would've been much smoother | 13:20 |
| aday1 | thorwil: thanks, i'll change that :) | 13:21 |
| wers | You know what, I think, having a meeting like this upstream would also be a good idea, yes? | 13:22 |
| thorwil | aday1: link to a guide on reporting/triaging bugs | 13:22 |
| wers | GNOME Usability meeting every week | 13:22 |
| thorwil | careful with the "like this" ;) | 13:23 |
| wers | oh.. yes.hehe | 13:23 |
| aday1 | wers: that's a really good idea | 13:24 |
| thorwil | aday1: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation doesn't make it clear if the page itself should become a resource, or if it's more about the pointers to elsewhere | 13:25 |
| thorwil | aday1: a line like "Simple and natural dialog" does need some explanation | 13:26 |
| aday1 | thorwil: yeah, i'm still working on that. it's someone else's page that i only found today :) | 13:27 |
| wers | aday1, we can also focus on UX, as a whole, not just usability | 13:27 |
| thorwil | wers: i would have a hard time to separate UX and usability | 13:28 |
| wers | looks like the word "usability" is too conventional in GNOME that we sometimes tend to overlook the whole UX | 13:28 |
| wers | UX is an umbrella term for usability, information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility | 13:28 |
| thorwil | wers: cool. then i would have a hard time to separate usability from information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility ;) | 13:29 |
| wers | lol | 13:29 |
| aday1 | wers: the emphasis on 'usability' in gnome is a historical hangover, and it's pretty entrenched. it'd be nice to move to ux, but that would be a lot of work | 13:29 |
| wers | aday1, let's start doing | 13:30 |
| thorwil | wers: to me, UX is just a neutral term, where usability implies that you deal with something measurable. i would not define the scope to be different | 13:30 |
| aday1 | yeah, ux is a broader term. it's a bit more flexible than usability | 13:31 |
| aday1 | the gnome usability pages include material which has nothing to do with usability :/ | 13:31 |
| wers | according to ISO, UX is the perception and response to the use or anticipated use of something (which is software in this case) | 13:31 |
| wers | usability is just the ability of something to be used | 13:31 |
| aday1 | wers: that's a rather narrow definition in my view | 13:32 |
| wers | aday1, which one? | 13:32 |
| wers | okay here's a more complete one. usability involves learnability, efficiency, memorability, lack of errors, and satisfaction | 13:33 |
| wers | disciplines under UX have the same goal, but they have different means and driving forces | 13:34 |
| wers | perhaps, the easiest one to differentiate is accessibility, which focuses on people with impairments | 13:35 |
| wers | see, it's driven by impairments, but the goal is just the same | 13:35 |
| aday1 | wers: the iso one. for me, UX isn't just about usage, or the practicalities of usage | 13:35 |
| thorwil | to me, usability is the combination of effectiveness, efficiency and user satisfaction of a tool, in the context of a specific audience, task or set of tasks and environment | 13:36 |
| aday1 | wers: so ux is about how software makes a person feel | 13:36 |
| aday1 | wers: is it exciting? fun? engaging? etc... | 13:36 |
| aday1 | wers: ux bleeds into marketing quite a bit of the time | 13:37 |
| wers | aday1, that's just the socio-emotional side of things. there's also physical, cognitive, and... spiritual. ahehe | 13:37 |
| aday1 | wers: i wouldn't separate the cognitive from the emotional, but that's maybe getting a bit theoretical ;) | 13:37 |
| wers | I'm writing about this for a conference. I'll show my paper when it's done :D | 13:37 |
| vish | hey all! | 13:37 |
| thorwil | hi vish | 13:38 |
| wers | aday1, you should separate it. I recommend reading Don Norman's emotional design :) | 13:38 |
| aday1 | vish: hey! watch out! it's getting a bit academic in here... | 13:38 |
| wers | affective design is a discipline by itself | 13:38 |
| aday1 | wers: and i would recommend that you read william james. :) | 13:38 |
| wers | aday1, I'll do that :D | 13:38 |
| wers | hi vish | 13:39 |
| vish | aday1: haha , speaking of watching out ;) http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en#the-file-menu might be getting a makeover next week ;) | 13:39 |
| thorwil | vish: so how do you feel about the socio-economic realities of user experience design in the context of frobnicated cloud sharing services? | 13:39 |
| aday1 | wers: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/23343/ | 13:40 |
| wers | aday1, thanks! | 13:40 |
| vish | thorwil: reading that line feels like my head is spinning ;) | 13:40 |
| aday1 | vish: cool! who/when/where/how | 13:41 |
| vish | aday1: mpt plans to get get that fixed as part of the HIG update | 13:41 |
| vish | during guadec | 13:41 |
| aday1 | vish: good stuff. we're having a hig writing session on the monday | 13:41 |
| vish | yeah , i guess during that one. | 13:42 |
| vish | wers: actually mpt /is/ writing the windicators guidelines... | 13:43 |
| vish | someone has to bring some sensibility there :p | 13:43 |
| wers | vish, cool | 13:43 |
| wers | and that's the reason why he's unavailable? | 13:44 |
| vish | wers: canonical sprint prague ,maybe | 13:44 |
| aday1 | that's the danger of windicators. instead of solving the notification area, they could just make it worse | 13:44 |
| vish | aday1: +1 | 13:44 |
| aday1 | anybody got anything going on they want to talk about? | 13:44 |
| wers | I have one.. related to windicators... | 13:45 |
| wers | firefox wants to draw a button on the window border but there are issues | 13:45 |
| wers | the app can't tell what's going on in the window border. it can't tell if the close min max buttons are on the left or the right or whatever | 13:46 |
| wers | so mozilla guys didnt include it, which makes Firefox 4 on linux look old compared to the windows counterpart | 13:46 |
| wers | they also think that a firefox button will break the menu bar convention | 13:47 |
| vish | :/ | 13:47 |
| wers | the guys upstream are innovating, but gnome's conventions are restricting them | 13:47 |
| wers | so what do we do about this? we can't just change every menu bar and turn them into app buttons, right? | 13:48 |
| vish | wers: well , hbons , garett seem to favor the menubutton , so probably might happen | 13:48 |
| wers | now, there's this windicators project. i'm just thinking that the work here can be used for this issue | 13:48 |
| jcastro | wers: the best way to start this discussion is on the ayatana mailing list | 13:48 |
| aday1 | wers: why not? | 13:48 |
| aday1 | vish: agreed | 13:48 |
| jcastro | (and check the archives for past discussions) | 13:48 |
| wers | vish, that's cool | 13:49 |
| wers | jcastro, i'll do that | 13:49 |
| aday1 | well, maybe not every app... ;) | 13:49 |
| wers | aday1, yeah. that's the thing. consistency | 13:49 |
| thorwil | the though of checking the ayatana ml archive sends chills down my spine | 13:49 |
| wers | lol | 13:49 |
| wers | i'll start a thread on ayatana and gnome usability MLs | 13:51 |
| aday1 | wers: consistency is a means to an end | 13:54 |
| wers | aday1, what does that mean? | 13:54 |
| aday1 | wers: but we probably do need some guidelines on writing app menus | 13:54 |
| wers | I agree | 13:54 |
| aday1 | wers: the goal is to make interfaces understandable | 13:55 |
| wers | yep | 13:55 |
| aday1 | wers: one way to do that is to have them consistent - so users know what to expect and how it works | 13:55 |
| wers | exactly | 13:55 |
| aday1 | wers: but there are lots of other ways - having clear labels, logically arranged UIs, etc | 13:55 |
| wers | as long as it won't alienate | 13:56 |
| aday1 | wers: and if you do those things well, consistency isn't necessary | 13:56 |
| wers | that's arguable | 13:56 |
| aday1 | it depends on the context | 13:56 |
| wers | and the execution | 13:56 |
| aday1 | agreed | 13:56 |
| thorwil | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", but in software, there tends to be a lack of the good kind of consistency | 13:56 |
| aday1 | ha ha | 13:57 |
| aday1 | i presume this stuff works. google will be testing chrome | 13:57 |
| jcastro | wers: appmenu stuff is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu | 13:58 |
| wers | jcastro, thanks. checking it out | 13:58 |
| jcastro | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream under Integration too | 13:58 |
| wers | jcastro, actually, the firefox button get rids of that bar | 13:59 |
| wers | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Linux_Theme_Mockups | 13:59 |
| wers | oops. no firefox button there. wait | 13:59 |
| wers | the one on the upper left of Fx http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png&imgrefurl=http://revolver360.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/firefox-4-rc1-beta-feels-great-so-far-welcome-for-early-adopters/&usg=__W5F-HbFEgNq6ULtBwLtyXaGdBUM=&h=655&w=950&sz=436&hl=en&start=0&sig2=LLY-L055CKdG_PNZVQpNuA&tbnid=OKIqt64uMpuPoM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=193&ei=7kBITIOUDYHXcN7BkKwM&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfirefox%2B4 | 14:00 |
| wers | %2Bbeta%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dubuntu%26sa%3DN%26channel%3Dcs%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D710%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=262&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0 | 14:00 |
| wers | ooh my that's a long link sorry | 14:01 |
| jcastro | tinyurl dude. :D | 14:01 |
| wers | this one http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png | 14:01 |
| wers | just like the opera button | 14:01 |
| thorwil | wers: will that FF button be in the corner on a maximized window? | 14:02 |
| aday1 | how does this work with chrome on os x? | 14:03 |
| wers | thorwil, I think | 14:03 |
| thorwil | because that's the thing going poof if the wm buttons are on the left of it in ubuntu | 14:03 |
| wers | aday1, afaik, chrome draws its own window border on all platforms | 14:03 |
| wers | thorwil, yep. it's never been executed on Linux. the behavior I was talking about was Fx button on windows | 14:04 |
| aday1 | wers: i'm just wondering about the global menu bar in une... | 14:04 |
| wers | gtk+ guys are working on client side buttons but they still don't know if and how this will work | 14:04 |
| wers | aday1, oh yes. that's exactly what we're avoiding | 14:05 |
| wers | it's really difficult to deviate from conventions because a lot of stuff do break | 14:06 |
| thorwil | that's why i wish those conventions would be on a higher level | 14:07 |
| thorwil | timeout ends meeting :) | 14:23 |
| * thorwil pokes vish for remark about coffee/food | 14:23 | |
| vish | thorwil: aw , dang it! I forgot! , next time :D | 14:36 |
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