[13:05] <wers> mpt?
[13:06] <aday1> wers: hey! what's cookin?
[13:07] <thorwil> hi wers, aday1
[13:07] <aday1> thorwil: hi :)
[13:07] <wers> hi aday1 and thorwil
[13:07] <wers> who's familiar with the windicators?
[13:08] <aday1> wers: mpt :)
[13:08] <wers> lol
[13:08] <wers> how about you thorwil ?
[13:09] <thorwil> read a bit about it, saw the wireframes
[13:09] <thorwil> i pinged mpt in #ayatana
[13:09] <wers> i wonder how it will work with upstream stuff
[13:11] <aday1> wers: it was rejected as a gnome module, and gnome shell kills it when it launches
[13:11] <wers> aday1, oooh
[13:12] <wers> 'cause I'm discussing the Firefox button with Mozilla's UX
[13:12] <aday1> wers: the gnome shell designs for this stuff are here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Guidelines/SystemStatus/
[13:13] <aday1> wers: hang on, i'm getting confused. thought you were talking about the notification area...
[13:13] <aday1> wers: not sure how that relates to windicators, implementation-wise
[13:14] <wers> aday1, ooh
[13:14] <wers> my main concern is client side buttons on the window border
[13:14] <wers> i wonder how the windicators project would affect this
[13:16] <aday1> wers: tricky one. afaik, windicators are designed to add optional additional functionality. so there shouldn't be a reason not to use them from a ux pov
[13:17] <wers> yeah. we just have to know the technical limitations and stuff. hmm
[13:17] <aday1> thorwil, wers: i wrote this earlier today: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted any comments/ideas?
[13:18] <aday1> i also updated the heuristic evaluation page: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation
[13:18] <wers> looks good
[13:19] <thorwil> aday1: 4 and 5 are not really separate points
[13:19] <wers> aday1, how do people land on those pages?
[13:20] <aday1> i realised that gnome doesn't have a good place to point new ux people at
[13:20] <aday1> wers: i'll be linking to it from the usability project home page. i'm thinking it could be good for the ux advocates stuff too
[13:20] <wers> aday1, that's right. if I saw something like that when I was starting, things would've been much smoother
[13:21] <aday1> thorwil: thanks, i'll change that :)
[13:22] <wers> You know what, I think, having a meeting like this upstream would also be a good idea, yes?
[13:22] <thorwil> aday1: link to a guide on reporting/triaging bugs
[13:22] <wers> GNOME Usability meeting every week
[13:23] <thorwil> careful with the "like this" ;)
[13:23] <wers> oh.. yes.hehe
[13:24] <aday1> wers: that's a really good idea
[13:25] <thorwil> aday1: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation doesn't make it clear if the page itself should become a resource, or if it's more about the pointers to elsewhere
[13:26] <thorwil> aday1: a line like "Simple and natural dialog" does need some explanation
[13:27] <aday1> thorwil: yeah, i'm still working on that. it's someone else's page that i only found today :)
[13:27] <wers> aday1, we can also focus on UX, as a whole, not just usability
[13:28] <thorwil> wers: i would have a hard time to separate UX and usability
[13:28] <wers> looks like the word "usability" is too conventional in GNOME that we sometimes tend to overlook the whole UX
[13:28] <wers> UX is an umbrella term for usability, information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility
[13:29] <thorwil> wers: cool. then i would have a hard time to separate usability from information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility ;)
[13:29] <wers> lol
[13:29] <aday1> wers: the emphasis on 'usability' in gnome is a historical hangover, and it's pretty entrenched. it'd be nice to move to ux, but that would be a lot of work
[13:30] <wers> aday1, let's start doing
[13:30] <thorwil> wers: to me, UX is just a neutral term, where usability implies that you deal with something measurable. i would not define the scope to be different
[13:31] <aday1> yeah, ux is a broader term. it's a bit more flexible than usability
[13:31] <aday1> the gnome usability pages include material which has nothing to do with usability :/
[13:31] <wers> according to ISO, UX is the perception and response to the use or anticipated use of something (which is software in this case)
[13:31] <wers> usability is just the ability of something to be used
[13:32] <aday1> wers: that's a rather narrow definition in my view
[13:32] <wers> aday1, which one?
[13:33] <wers> okay here's a more complete  one. usability involves learnability, efficiency, memorability, lack of errors, and satisfaction
[13:34] <wers> disciplines under UX have the same goal, but they have different means and driving forces
[13:35] <wers> perhaps, the easiest one to differentiate is accessibility, which focuses on people with impairments
[13:35] <wers> see, it's driven by impairments, but the goal is just the same
[13:35] <aday1> wers: the iso one. for me, UX isn't just about usage, or the practicalities of usage
[13:36] <thorwil> to me, usability is the combination of effectiveness, efficiency and user satisfaction of a tool, in the context of a specific audience, task or set of tasks and environment
[13:36] <aday1> wers: so ux is about how software makes a person feel
[13:36] <aday1> wers: is it exciting? fun? engaging? etc...
[13:37] <aday1> wers: ux bleeds into marketing quite a bit of the time
[13:37] <wers> aday1, that's just the socio-emotional side of things. there's also physical, cognitive, and... spiritual. ahehe
[13:37] <aday1> wers: i wouldn't separate the cognitive from the emotional, but that's maybe getting a bit theoretical ;)
[13:37] <wers> I'm writing about this for a conference. I'll show my paper when it's done :D
[13:37] <vish> hey all!
[13:38] <thorwil> hi vish
[13:38] <wers> aday1, you should separate it. I recommend reading Don Norman's emotional design :)
[13:38] <aday1> vish: hey! watch out! it's getting a bit academic in here...
[13:38] <wers> affective design is a discipline by itself
[13:38] <aday1> wers: and i would recommend that you read william james. :)
[13:38] <wers> aday1, I'll do that :D
[13:39] <wers> hi vish
[13:39] <vish> aday1: haha , speaking of watching out ;)   http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en#the-file-menu  might be getting a makeover next week ;)
[13:39] <thorwil> vish: so how do you feel about the socio-economic realities of user experience design in the context of frobnicated cloud sharing services?
[13:40] <aday1> wers: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/23343/
[13:40] <wers> aday1, thanks!
[13:40] <vish> thorwil: reading that line feels like my head is spinning ;)
[13:41] <aday1> vish: cool! who/when/where/how
[13:41] <vish> aday1: mpt plans to get get that fixed as part of the HIG update
[13:41] <vish> during guadec
[13:41] <aday1> vish: good stuff. we're having a hig writing session on the monday
[13:42] <vish> yeah , i guess during that one.
[13:43] <vish> wers: actually mpt /is/ writing the windicators guidelines...
[13:43] <vish> someone has to bring some sensibility there :p
[13:43] <wers> vish, cool
[13:44] <wers> and that's the reason why he's unavailable?
[13:44] <vish> wers: canonical sprint prague ,maybe
[13:44] <aday1> that's the danger of windicators. instead of solving the notification area, they could just make it worse
[13:44] <vish> aday1: +1
[13:44] <aday1> anybody got anything going on they want to talk about?
[13:45] <wers> I have one.. related to windicators...
[13:45] <wers> firefox wants to draw a button on the window border but there are issues
[13:46] <wers> the app can't tell what's going on in the window border. it can't tell if the close min max buttons are on the left or the right or whatever
[13:46] <wers> so mozilla guys didnt include it, which makes Firefox 4 on linux look old compared to the windows counterpart
[13:47] <wers> they also think that a firefox button will break the menu bar convention
[13:47] <vish> :/
[13:47] <wers> the guys upstream are innovating, but gnome's conventions are restricting them
[13:48] <wers> so what do we do about this? we can't just change every menu bar and turn them into app buttons, right?
[13:48] <vish> wers: well , hbons , garett seem to favor the menubutton , so probably might happen
[13:48] <wers> now, there's this windicators project. i'm just thinking that the work here can be used for this issue
[13:48] <jcastro> wers: the best way to start this discussion is on the ayatana mailing list
[13:48] <aday1> wers: why not?
[13:48] <aday1> vish: agreed
[13:48] <jcastro> (and check the archives for past discussions)
[13:49] <wers> vish, that's cool
[13:49] <wers> jcastro, i'll do that
[13:49] <aday1> well, maybe not every app... ;)
[13:49] <wers> aday1, yeah. that's the thing. consistency
[13:49] <thorwil> the though of checking the ayatana ml archive sends chills down my spine
[13:49] <wers> lol
[13:51] <wers> i'll start a thread on ayatana and gnome usability MLs
[13:54] <aday1> wers: consistency is a means to an end
[13:54] <wers> aday1, what does that mean?
[13:54] <aday1> wers: but we probably do need some guidelines on writing app menus
[13:54] <wers> I agree
[13:55] <aday1> wers: the goal is to make interfaces understandable
[13:55] <wers> yep
[13:55] <aday1> wers: one way to do that is to have them consistent - so users know what to expect and how it works
[13:55] <wers> exactly
[13:55] <aday1> wers: but there are lots of other ways - having clear labels, logically arranged UIs, etc
[13:56] <wers> as long as it won't alienate
[13:56] <aday1> wers: and if you do those things well, consistency isn't necessary
[13:56] <wers> that's arguable
[13:56] <aday1> it depends on the context
[13:56] <wers> and the execution
[13:56] <aday1> agreed
[13:56] <thorwil> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", but in software, there tends to be a lack of the good kind of consistency
[13:57] <aday1> ha ha
[13:57] <aday1> i presume this stuff works. google will be testing chrome
[13:58] <jcastro> wers: appmenu stuff is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu
[13:58] <wers> jcastro, thanks. checking it out
[13:58] <jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream under Integration too
[13:59] <wers> jcastro, actually, the firefox button get rids of that bar
[13:59] <wers> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Linux_Theme_Mockups
[13:59] <wers> oops. no firefox button there. wait
[14:00] <wers> the one on the upper left of Fx http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png&imgrefurl=http://revolver360.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/firefox-4-rc1-beta-feels-great-so-far-welcome-for-early-adopters/&usg=__W5F-HbFEgNq6ULtBwLtyXaGdBUM=&h=655&w=950&sz=436&hl=en&start=0&sig2=LLY-L055CKdG_PNZVQpNuA&tbnid=OKIqt64uMpuPoM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=193&ei=7kBITIOUDYHXcN7BkKwM&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfirefox%2B4
[14:00] <wers> %2Bbeta%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dubuntu%26sa%3DN%26channel%3Dcs%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D710%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=262&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0
[14:01] <wers> ooh my that's a long link sorry
[14:01] <jcastro> tinyurl dude. :D
[14:01] <wers> this one http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png
[14:01] <wers> just like the opera button
[14:02] <thorwil> wers: will that FF button be in the corner on a maximized window?
[14:03] <aday1> how does this work with chrome on os x?
[14:03] <wers> thorwil, I think
[14:03] <thorwil> because that's the thing going poof if the wm buttons are on the left of it in ubuntu
[14:03] <wers> aday1, afaik, chrome draws its own window border on all platforms
[14:04] <wers> thorwil, yep. it's never been executed on Linux. the behavior I was talking about was Fx button on windows
[14:04] <aday1> wers: i'm just wondering about the global menu bar in une...
[14:04] <wers> gtk+ guys are working on client side buttons but they still don't know if and how this will work
[14:05] <wers> aday1, oh yes. that's exactly what we're avoiding
[14:06] <wers> it's really difficult to deviate from conventions because a lot of stuff do break
[14:07] <thorwil> that's why i wish those conventions would be on a higher level
[14:23] <thorwil> timeout ends meeting :)
[14:23]  * thorwil pokes vish for remark about coffee/food
[14:36] <vish> thorwil: aw , dang it! I forgot! , next time :D