=== Ursinha-dinner is now known as Ursinha === bandwidthcrunch is now known as yonathanaw === oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann === persia` is now known as persia [13:05] mpt? [13:06] wers: hey! what's cookin? [13:07] hi wers, aday1 [13:07] thorwil: hi :) [13:07] hi aday1 and thorwil [13:07] who's familiar with the windicators? [13:08] wers: mpt :) [13:08] lol [13:08] how about you thorwil ? [13:09] read a bit about it, saw the wireframes [13:09] i pinged mpt in #ayatana [13:09] i wonder how it will work with upstream stuff [13:11] wers: it was rejected as a gnome module, and gnome shell kills it when it launches [13:11] aday1, oooh [13:12] 'cause I'm discussing the Firefox button with Mozilla's UX [13:12] wers: the gnome shell designs for this stuff are here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Guidelines/SystemStatus/ [13:13] wers: hang on, i'm getting confused. thought you were talking about the notification area... [13:13] wers: not sure how that relates to windicators, implementation-wise [13:14] aday1, ooh [13:14] my main concern is client side buttons on the window border [13:14] i wonder how the windicators project would affect this [13:16] wers: tricky one. afaik, windicators are designed to add optional additional functionality. so there shouldn't be a reason not to use them from a ux pov [13:17] yeah. we just have to know the technical limitations and stuff. hmm [13:17] thorwil, wers: i wrote this earlier today: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/GettingStarted any comments/ideas? [13:18] i also updated the heuristic evaluation page: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation [13:18] looks good [13:19] aday1: 4 and 5 are not really separate points [13:19] aday1, how do people land on those pages? [13:20] i realised that gnome doesn't have a good place to point new ux people at [13:20] wers: i'll be linking to it from the usability project home page. i'm thinking it could be good for the ux advocates stuff too [13:20] aday1, that's right. if I saw something like that when I was starting, things would've been much smoother [13:21] thorwil: thanks, i'll change that :) [13:22] You know what, I think, having a meeting like this upstream would also be a good idea, yes? [13:22] aday1: link to a guide on reporting/triaging bugs [13:22] GNOME Usability meeting every week [13:23] careful with the "like this" ;) [13:23] oh.. yes.hehe [13:24] wers: that's a really good idea [13:25] aday1: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HeuristicEvaluation doesn't make it clear if the page itself should become a resource, or if it's more about the pointers to elsewhere [13:26] aday1: a line like "Simple and natural dialog" does need some explanation [13:27] thorwil: yeah, i'm still working on that. it's someone else's page that i only found today :) [13:27] aday1, we can also focus on UX, as a whole, not just usability [13:28] wers: i would have a hard time to separate UX and usability [13:28] looks like the word "usability" is too conventional in GNOME that we sometimes tend to overlook the whole UX [13:28] UX is an umbrella term for usability, information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility [13:29] wers: cool. then i would have a hard time to separate usability from information architecture, interaction design, and accessibility ;) [13:29] lol [13:29] wers: the emphasis on 'usability' in gnome is a historical hangover, and it's pretty entrenched. it'd be nice to move to ux, but that would be a lot of work [13:30] aday1, let's start doing [13:30] wers: to me, UX is just a neutral term, where usability implies that you deal with something measurable. i would not define the scope to be different [13:31] yeah, ux is a broader term. it's a bit more flexible than usability [13:31] the gnome usability pages include material which has nothing to do with usability :/ [13:31] according to ISO, UX is the perception and response to the use or anticipated use of something (which is software in this case) [13:31] usability is just the ability of something to be used [13:32] wers: that's a rather narrow definition in my view [13:32] aday1, which one? [13:33] okay here's a more complete one. usability involves learnability, efficiency, memorability, lack of errors, and satisfaction [13:34] disciplines under UX have the same goal, but they have different means and driving forces [13:35] perhaps, the easiest one to differentiate is accessibility, which focuses on people with impairments [13:35] see, it's driven by impairments, but the goal is just the same [13:35] wers: the iso one. for me, UX isn't just about usage, or the practicalities of usage [13:36] to me, usability is the combination of effectiveness, efficiency and user satisfaction of a tool, in the context of a specific audience, task or set of tasks and environment [13:36] wers: so ux is about how software makes a person feel [13:36] wers: is it exciting? fun? engaging? etc... [13:37] wers: ux bleeds into marketing quite a bit of the time [13:37] aday1, that's just the socio-emotional side of things. there's also physical, cognitive, and... spiritual. ahehe [13:37] wers: i wouldn't separate the cognitive from the emotional, but that's maybe getting a bit theoretical ;) [13:37] I'm writing about this for a conference. I'll show my paper when it's done :D [13:37] hey all! [13:38] hi vish [13:38] aday1, you should separate it. I recommend reading Don Norman's emotional design :) [13:38] vish: hey! watch out! it's getting a bit academic in here... [13:38] affective design is a discipline by itself [13:38] wers: and i would recommend that you read william james. :) [13:38] aday1, I'll do that :D [13:39] hi vish [13:39] aday1: haha , speaking of watching out ;) http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/menus-standard.html.en#the-file-menu might be getting a makeover next week ;) [13:39] vish: so how do you feel about the socio-economic realities of user experience design in the context of frobnicated cloud sharing services? [13:40] wers: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/23343/ [13:40] aday1, thanks! [13:40] thorwil: reading that line feels like my head is spinning ;) [13:41] vish: cool! who/when/where/how [13:41] aday1: mpt plans to get get that fixed as part of the HIG update [13:41] during guadec [13:41] vish: good stuff. we're having a hig writing session on the monday [13:42] yeah , i guess during that one. [13:43] wers: actually mpt /is/ writing the windicators guidelines... [13:43] someone has to bring some sensibility there :p [13:43] vish, cool [13:44] and that's the reason why he's unavailable? [13:44] wers: canonical sprint prague ,maybe [13:44] that's the danger of windicators. instead of solving the notification area, they could just make it worse [13:44] aday1: +1 [13:44] anybody got anything going on they want to talk about? [13:45] I have one.. related to windicators... [13:45] firefox wants to draw a button on the window border but there are issues [13:46] the app can't tell what's going on in the window border. it can't tell if the close min max buttons are on the left or the right or whatever [13:46] so mozilla guys didnt include it, which makes Firefox 4 on linux look old compared to the windows counterpart [13:47] they also think that a firefox button will break the menu bar convention [13:47] :/ [13:47] the guys upstream are innovating, but gnome's conventions are restricting them [13:48] so what do we do about this? we can't just change every menu bar and turn them into app buttons, right? [13:48] wers: well , hbons , garett seem to favor the menubutton , so probably might happen [13:48] now, there's this windicators project. i'm just thinking that the work here can be used for this issue [13:48] wers: the best way to start this discussion is on the ayatana mailing list [13:48] wers: why not? [13:48] vish: agreed [13:48] (and check the archives for past discussions) [13:49] vish, that's cool [13:49] jcastro, i'll do that [13:49] well, maybe not every app... ;) [13:49] aday1, yeah. that's the thing. consistency [13:49] the though of checking the ayatana ml archive sends chills down my spine [13:49] lol [13:51] i'll start a thread on ayatana and gnome usability MLs [13:54] wers: consistency is a means to an end [13:54] aday1, what does that mean? [13:54] wers: but we probably do need some guidelines on writing app menus [13:54] I agree [13:55] wers: the goal is to make interfaces understandable [13:55] yep [13:55] wers: one way to do that is to have them consistent - so users know what to expect and how it works [13:55] exactly [13:55] wers: but there are lots of other ways - having clear labels, logically arranged UIs, etc [13:56] as long as it won't alienate [13:56] wers: and if you do those things well, consistency isn't necessary [13:56] that's arguable [13:56] it depends on the context [13:56] and the execution [13:56] agreed [13:56] "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", but in software, there tends to be a lack of the good kind of consistency [13:57] ha ha [13:57] i presume this stuff works. google will be testing chrome [13:58] wers: appmenu stuff is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu [13:58] jcastro, thanks. checking it out [13:58] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream under Integration too [13:59] jcastro, actually, the firefox button get rids of that bar [13:59] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Linux_Theme_Mockups [13:59] oops. no firefox button there. wait [14:00] the one on the upper left of Fx http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png&imgrefurl=http://revolver360.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/firefox-4-rc1-beta-feels-great-so-far-welcome-for-early-adopters/&usg=__W5F-HbFEgNq6ULtBwLtyXaGdBUM=&h=655&w=950&sz=436&hl=en&start=0&sig2=LLY-L055CKdG_PNZVQpNuA&tbnid=OKIqt64uMpuPoM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=193&ei=7kBITIOUDYHXcN7BkKwM&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfirefox%2B4 [14:00] %2Bbeta%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dubuntu%26sa%3DN%26channel%3Dcs%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D710%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=262&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0 [14:01] ooh my that's a long link sorry [14:01] tinyurl dude. :D [14:01] this one http://people.mozilla.com/~sethb/BangaloreDevDay/images/Firefox-4-Mockup.png [14:01] just like the opera button [14:02] wers: will that FF button be in the corner on a maximized window? [14:03] how does this work with chrome on os x? [14:03] thorwil, I think [14:03] because that's the thing going poof if the wm buttons are on the left of it in ubuntu [14:03] aday1, afaik, chrome draws its own window border on all platforms [14:04] thorwil, yep. it's never been executed on Linux. the behavior I was talking about was Fx button on windows [14:04] wers: i'm just wondering about the global menu bar in une... [14:04] gtk+ guys are working on client side buttons but they still don't know if and how this will work [14:05] aday1, oh yes. that's exactly what we're avoiding [14:06] it's really difficult to deviate from conventions because a lot of stuff do break [14:07] that's why i wish those conventions would be on a higher level [14:23] timeout ends meeting :) [14:23] * thorwil pokes vish for remark about coffee/food [14:36] thorwil: aw , dang it! I forgot! , next time :D === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === MichealH_ is now known as MichealH === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-nom === Ursinha-nom is now known as Ursinha