paultag_howdy czajkowski01:14
Pendulumhiya czajkowski01:25
czajkowskiPendulum: howdy01:25
czajkowskiPendulum: howsy things01:27
Pendulumnot too bad02:02
sabinI have a problem with usb tv box on ubuntu02:58
=== paultag_ is now known as paultag
paultagAny CC members hanging around?03:23
paultagthe LC needs a quick update on contact email to our ML --> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-lococouncil <-- Email is loco-council@l.u.c03:24
* pleia2 hasn't quite left yet03:25
paultagpleia2, oh you! You're supposed to be out! Go do your real life stuff, this won't change in a day03:26
pleia2hmm, it currently sends mail to all of you by default03:26
pleia2irc council doesn't use a set email addy either03:26
pleia2should probably nudge other CC people to see what the hive mind thinks03:27
paultagpleia2, well, I'll write something and send it to team council, get out of here before I have to ask someone from the IRCC to kickban you ;)03:27
pleia2sounds good03:28
nhandleriirc, LP doesn't like having an l.u.c contact address. Even the CC doesn't have it set03:28
paultagnhandler, at least if we can note it in the text03:28
nhandlerYeah, that is what most teams do paultag03:28
paultagaye. I'll craft an email and poke to see what everyone thinks03:28
doctormopleia2: The blog entry is for tomorrow right?05:14
pleia2doctormo: probably, I figured I'd space it a little bit away from yours so there weren't two posts in a row about the same thing05:17
* pleia2 has all images prepped, just needs to write the content of the entry ;)05:18
doctormopleia2: Perfect, in your own time of course. btw, how did you prep the images?05:31
doctormopleia2: New version Revision 6 available: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/foo/ask-smart-questions.pdf also at lp:~doctormo/doctormo-random/howtoask06:11
doctormopaultag: Do you not think it would have been better if rules had not had been bent and the USA was just one LoCo team? We'd always be an approved LoCo then.06:16
doctormopleia2: P.S. I don't want the lp code path to become common knowledge since past experience shows translators go a bit crazy and start badly handling translations on their own, publishing in random places online and basically doing a whole bunch of work to create confusion. This time I want to get people to email me and work on translations that way.07:08
pleia2doctormo: great, thanks, and noted09:05
AlanBelldoctormo: if the USA was a country level LoCo then that country level loco would probably install the same kind of state level structures anyway09:32
nigelbwe face that difficulty with india as a country level loco09:33
nigelbeven if one person starts to do something, it will be difficult to revive the country as a whole. the only hope I have is a city level loco09:34
sensegood morning09:51
nigelbmorning sense :)10:07
sensehey nigelb!10:08
duanedesign'lo all10:11
doctormonigelb: Best to have a city + surrounding area LoCo, otherwise you'll have an urban populace with Ubuntu and all the rural guys without. Although in india perhaps that's going to happen anyway.10:30
nigelbdoctormo: yup10:30
doctormoAlanBell: The difference is that the country wide LoCo would be the one contacting shipit for resources, which it would then distribute out to states.10:31
doctormonigelb: Then do that, the Indian LoCo can just take care of shipit and emailing sub-teams about items on contacts list.10:31
nigelbdoctormo: nope.  that part is dead.10:39
nigelb(which is what I'm trying to revive)10:39
doctormonigelb: Which part? the country wide part?10:39
nigelbthe country wide10:40
AlanBellshipit isn't that important10:53
doctormoAlanBell: Not to a country the size and demographic of India, I wouldn't think so.11:12
doctormonigelb: It must be fairly cheap to make CDs there, it would probably be cheaper for shipit to just send you money ;-P11:13
nigelbdoctormo: hahah11:14
nigelbactually when the cds come to loco contacts we spend more money getting it customs cleared (when I asked the loco contact.  he stopped requesting)11:14
AlanBellcanonical will pay customs charges11:15
doctormonigelb: What is the best language for materials to be in for India?11:15
nigelbAlanBell: not the bribes which they force us to pay :/11:15
nigelbdoctormo: around 22 of them major and a lot of them minor :D11:15
AlanBellnigelb: ah, that might be different :-(11:15
doctormonigelb: huh? Pick _one_ language which is the best to print lots of materials in.11:16
nigelbdoctormo: There isn't one.11:16
nigelbDepending on where you're going to give it, the language changes.11:16
nigelbI can't even say English because it depends on the target audience.11:17
doctormonigelb: OK lets try this question again... Considering population, distribution ease, effect, current layout of loco and user groups in India. What one language would have the most effect and could be distributed the most widely.11:19
nigelbdoctormo: ok, this is going to take some time to explain.11:19
nigelbAlmost every state in India has its own language.  If you ask for one language with majority speakers, it would be Hindi.  But if you attempt to try and distribute Hindi materials in south india, its full of fail.  Ditto for Eastern India too.11:21
nigelbSo, if you want any level of success English would be best.  Loco and LUGs can translate that.11:21
nigelbAnything else, you're going to have to cater for at least 30 languages.11:21
nigelbAlanBell: thanks for the link :)11:23
AlanBellwow: India's most prestigious Indian Institute of Technology entrance, most popularly known as IIT-JEE, has changed its format. In 2007, the questions are posed in either Hindi or English, and students can answer in one of these languages: English, Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu and Urdu.11:24
doctormonigelb: I'm actually well aware of India's language demographic, I wasn't asking if one language could cover all though.11:25
doctormoAfter all I have friends from all over India :-)11:25
nigelbwhat I'm trying to tell you is, besides English, any other attempt would mean localizating to at least all the major languages11:26
doctormoAlanBell: I only know people who can speak Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Urdu and Tamil though. I'm missing a few states from my friendship collection :-P11:26
nigelbdoctormo: add me for malayalam11:27
doctormonigelb: But that isn't what I asked. I assume the answer to what I asked is English or Hindi. But you keep on assuming I'm asking a different question.11:27
nigelbdoctormo: Hindi again has problems.11:27
doctormonigelb: If you gave someone who is a native speaker/reader something in Hindi, would they not be able to read it?11:28
nigelbdoctormo: oh, wait.  English was an option11:28
nigelbdoctormo: depends on where he/she's from11:28
nigelbmy colleagues cannot speak/read/write Hindi at all.11:28
doctormoIf she/he is a native speaker on Hindi.11:28
nigelbI can manage a bit of Hindi11:29
nigelbah, native Hindi speaker, yes!11:29
doctormonigelb: You probably top my Hindi which stops at Gai-say-ho, and unfortunately I only know how to say that, not type it.11:29
nigelbKai-se-ho ;)11:30
* nigelb can go up to asking directions and ordering food in hindi :D11:30
nigelboh, even Kanada too I can speak but not read/write :/11:30
doctormonigelb: So how is Danyabad/Shuk-ri-at really typed?11:30
nigelbdoctormo: what you've typed looks okay, though I'd make it Dhanyawadh11:31
doctormoAnd the other? or is that something else like Pakistani.11:32
doctormonigelb: So basically your Hindi is as good as my Thai. Not terribly useful for much I must say.11:33
nigelbthe other is perfect11:33
nigelbhindi/urdu(spoken in pakistan) and many other indian languages come from the same base language11:33
nigelbits like latin is to english/french/italian11:34
nigelblots of common words11:34
doctormoI doubt it's like Latin is to English11:37
doctormoThat relationship is rather hard to explain11:37
nigelbthats the only other example I know of.  Its not perfect though.11:39
doctormoSanskrit and English are both Indo-European languages, they're more related to each other than English is to Finnish, which is Uralic. Very odd.11:40
doctormoSo Torvalds speaks two different language families :-D but you and I only speak one.11:41
nigelbdoctormo: Oh, I had some fun yesterday.11:42
nigelbI saw someone raving about an application which is a frontend to google docs11:42
nigelbAbout 10 minutes later, I realized the author was you :D11:42
doctormonigelb: OK so English is Germanic in base, it's similar to German. It contains Latin words because of the French invasion in 1066, this lead to the offical language being French for a while, but only the aristocrats used French. Thus complex and subtle words tended to be French/Latin and more basic words tended to be Germanic.11:43
doctormoOf course English still has a few Celtic words too, the odd random thing from the very distant past.11:44
sensedoctormo: The language most closest to English is Frisian, a language spoken by around 600.000 people in the province I live in. :)11:45
senseIt is dialectising towards Dutch, but it is different.11:45
nigelbdoctormo: Oh! I didn't know the origin of English in so much detail.11:45
senseSanskrit did have influence on European languages I think, but didn't Latin have influence on Eastern language as well?11:45
sensenigelb: Dutch can read Old English more easily than English speakers nowadays.11:46
senseEspecially Frisians can read it much easier.11:46
doctormosense: Latin is a romance language, it's possible but I'd have to read up on it.11:46
doctormosense: And I knew English and Dutch were close too.11:46
senseThe French influence on English is profound.11:46
nigelbWoo, going into languages is pretty complicated isn't it :)11:47
senseIt is said that Frisian influence English, and not the other way around.11:47
doctormosense: I wouldn't put any bets on any one way link11:47
senseSome Frisians 'migrated' to England.11:48
doctormosense: For instance the French would loath to admit that English has heavily influenced modern French.11:48
senseabout 1000 years ago11:48
* AlanBell thinks doctormo should do a Widnesian translation11:48
sensedoctormo: But they're French.11:48
senseInfluence can come back. For example: dope comes from the Dutch word 'doop', which could also be used as an archaic word for 'gravy'. It is now used by some Dutch speakers with the same meaning the English now give it.11:49
doctormoAlanBell: A' eh lad, I caent uwse se meny speling m'takes.11:49
doctormoAlanBell: Me and the wife still have to read my mum and sisters emails out loud to understand them *mercy heavens*11:50
senseIt is really weird to see how much influence the Dutch language had on (American) English considering that (relatively) there weren't that much Dutch migrants in the US compared to migrants from other countries.11:50
AlanBellMy dad is from St Helens11:50
senseAh, the island everyone only knows because of Napoleon?11:51
doctormosense: Not really that much of a surprise, them that gets there first and all that.11:51
doctormoAlanBell: heh, if only Napoleon had known about the ICI chemical works and the sanky canal.11:51
senseTranslation error from my part then.11:51
AlanBellsense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Helens,_Merseyside11:52
sensedoctormo: Were they really the earliest migrants? I know the Pilgrim Fathers lived in the Netherlands until they got fed up with having to tolerate other people's practises and went to found their own religious state, but they must have stayed pretty English, they didn't stay that long.11:52
doctormosense: Alan is talking about St Helens, Cheshire, UK. A rugby town in the north of England famous for not being very interesting and having an ok picture house I guess.11:52
senseIt does have a reasonably wiki page.11:53
doctormoOh it's in Mersyside, my mistake. Widnes never could settle in any boundry.11:53
doctormoWow I wouldn't have though St Helens was comparable in size to Liverpool.11:53
senseWe'll be spending holiday inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptree this year. AlanBell: What's Essex like?11:54
doctormosense: I remember when the guy writing the article for Widnes asked to take my article about Widnes on H2G2 as the basis. heh.11:54
sensedoctormo: What's H2G2?11:55
nigelbsense: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/11:56
AlanBellthe hitchhikers guide to the galaxy11:56
nigelb(British edition :p)11:56
senseWe've seen the new movie at school, but that's probably not enough to full grasp the huge culture that has grown around it.11:57
nigelbsense: read the book.  movies are never as good as the book.11:57
AlanBelloh, the movie is rubbish, you need to read the book11:57
senseIt is a series, right?11:58
AlanBellsense: Essex is nice in places, tiptree looks good11:58
AlanBellit is a trilogy11:58
AlanBellin 5 parts11:58
AlanBellor possibly 611:59
sensemakes sense!11:59
doctormoAlanBell: Hieratic! It's 4 books and one mistake, or 5 radio series.12:01
AlanBellMostly Harmless is "The fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhikers Trilogy"12:01
doctormoThe radio is the best way to do it, it's like an audio book, but with actors and sound effects.12:02
doctormoAlanBell: Mostly Harmless is mostly Adams getting sick of pestering fans and wrote the damn thing to shut them up, that's why it's so gloomy. He kills off every earth in every dimension of every plurality. Including the entire main cast.12:03
doctormoThe Radio ending saved it though, good ol' babel fish.12:03
nigelbAlanBell: isn't there a new one?12:03
doctormonigelb: Douglas Adams died in 2001.12:04
nigelbdoctormo: yes, this one was written by someone else12:04
doctormohttp://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U178086 for those curious, I'm DoctorMO (Keeper of the Computer, Guru, Community Artist)12:05
doctormoThe problem is the damn BBC locked me out of my account and have no way to recover access.12:08
doctormoThe rotten lot.12:08
nigelbwhy did they lock you out?12:12
doctormonigelb: Forgot the password12:18
nigelbdoctormo: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA12:19
doctormoNow even if I remember it, I won't be allowed in.12:21
doctormoUltimate security.12:21
nigelbdoctormo: Also trying to say, go big or stay home.12:22
nigelbif you come here often, you'll remember your password12:22
nigelbif not, go away, we don't want you :p12:22
doctormoNah, they're saying: "We wrote this website in C and thought we were clever dickies, but got bought by the BBC who has the technical nouse of a bit of lint"12:24
* nigelb headdesks12:25
nigelbI wrote code for hours only to learn the host doesn't support PHP 5 :/12:25
nigelbespecially after I've finished everything12:25
doctormonigelb: There are ways around that, although normally the only reason the host doesn't support PHP is that it's a windows box at which point I reject.12:30
nigelbdoctormo: Linux host.  I've read a lot of call by reference which is supported only from php 5 :/12:32
doctormoAh, something which isn't a problem for perl or python unless your doing something very interesting.12:38
doctormoAlthough I would say that, I've never liked php12:38
nigelbI like PHP though I'd like to learn python and probably work on django.12:54
nigelbdjango looks extremely interesting.12:54
paultagdoctormo, I don't think you understood what I was saying13:23
doctormopaultag: where?13:24
paultag<doctormo> paultag: Do you not think it would have been better if rules had not had been bent and the USA was just one LoCo team? We'd always be an approved LoCo then.13:24
paultagyour last ping13:24
senseDo other large countries get the same exception as the US? Otherwise that would be unfair.13:58
paultagsense, I have no clue. I don't think so. Russia is considered one.13:59
paultagsense, I don't know why it there, the US is very inconsistent with naming and guidelines14:00
paultagsense, for instance like 20 bajilion locos in Texas14:00
paultagsense, I think it's one of those things where we screwed up early and it's a huge mess to change right now14:01
senseThe US probably started growing a lot of LoCos before most of the current rules were in place.14:02
senseBut maybe it would be wise to clean the mess up a bit, especially if now we have countries like Brazil and India (and Russia?) getting more and more active. If the US get exceptions, so they could reason, why not we?14:02
senseWe don't want the mess to spread! ;)14:02
paultagsense, yeah, I was talking with Lyz about it14:03
paultagsense, but it's a huge amount of trouble, and we've tried in the past14:03
paultagsense, we've started to unify control with a ubuntu-us team14:05
senseI know from my own LoCo that structural changes (especially considering leadership, titles and responsibilities) are always slow.14:08
senseBut you're working!14:08
paultagsense, yup14:08
paultagsense, I'd hate to have people think we are proto-typical self-centered Americans :)14:08
senseAt least you're not!14:09
paultagI hope not :)14:10
paultagAlanBell, I saw that, but the dell.com/ubuntu is still up14:22
paultagAlanBell, and wtf, they are OEM partners with us14:22
AlanBellyou saw my conversation with them?14:23
paultagAlanBell, yesterday? Aye14:23
AlanBelltis very frustrating14:24
paultagAye, it sure is.14:24
paultagWe must all be gluttons for punishment14:24
AlanBellspeaking to the Canonical OEM people, most Dells are certified, all the engineering work is done14:24
AlanBelljust the sales side don't want to sell them14:25
paultag... So, we ditch them14:25
paultagWhy spend so much time and energy for something that is overall backwards work14:25
AlanBellthe real frustrating thing is that they will look at their quarterly sales figures and see that they have not sold many Ubuntu laptops14:27
AlanBellthey report those figures to Microsoft14:27
AlanBellwho then take them round every other OEM and say look, Ubuntu doesn't sell very well.14:27
AlanBellIt isn't really good business practice to keep your products on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard"14:32
senseVote with your money, don't buy Dell! :)15:09
duanedesigni remember reading awhile back Dell users complaining because they could not upgrade their Dell Mini. Poor gma500 support in Linux15:10
AlanBellthe GMA500 paulsbo thing was poor linux support from intel15:11
AlanBellI have some sympathy for Dell on that one, same for the lpia build15:12
AlanBell(although I could see that coming)15:12
* duanedesign nods15:20
doctormoczajkowski: Did you reschedule the ubuntu-us-ma meeting?19:29
pleia2doctormo: here we go :) http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=324820:56
pleia2doctormo: re: meeting, I think she was confused - seems like the meeting time she cited was the loco teams meeting20:57
sensegood night everyone!21:35

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