[01:13] <czajkowski> aloha
[01:14] <paultag_> howdy czajkowski
[01:14] <czajkowski> doody
[01:25] <Pendulum> hiya czajkowski
[01:25] <czajkowski> Pendulum: howdy
[01:27] <czajkowski> Pendulum: howsy things
[02:02] <Pendulum> not too bad
[02:57] <sabin> hi
[02:58] <sabin> I have a problem with usb tv box on ubuntu
[03:23] <paultag> Any CC members hanging around?
[03:24] <paultag> the LC needs a quick update on contact email to our ML --> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-lococouncil <-- Email is loco-council@l.u.c
[03:25] <pleia2> sure
[03:25]  * pleia2 hasn't quite left yet
[03:25] <pleia2> hehe
[03:26] <paultag> pleia2, oh you! You're supposed to be out! Go do your real life stuff, this won't change in a day
[03:26] <pleia2> hmm, it currently sends mail to all of you by default
[03:26] <pleia2> irc council doesn't use a set email addy either
[03:27] <pleia2> should probably nudge other CC people to see what the hive mind thinks
[03:27] <paultag> pleia2, well, I'll write something and send it to team council, get out of here before I have to ask someone from the IRCC to kickban you ;)
[03:28] <pleia2> sounds good
[03:28] <pleia2> lol
[03:28] <nhandler> iirc, LP doesn't like having an l.u.c contact address. Even the CC doesn't have it set
[03:28] <paultag> Grrr.
[03:28] <paultag> nhandler, at least if we can note it in the text
[03:28] <nhandler> Yeah, that is what most teams do paultag
[03:28] <paultag> aye. I'll craft an email and poke to see what everyone thinks
[05:14] <doctormo> pleia2: The blog entry is for tomorrow right?
[05:17] <pleia2> doctormo: probably, I figured I'd space it a little bit away from yours so there weren't two posts in a row about the same thing
[05:18]  * pleia2 has all images prepped, just needs to write the content of the entry ;)
[05:31] <doctormo> pleia2: Perfect, in your own time of course. btw, how did you prep the images?
[06:11] <doctormo> pleia2: New version Revision 6 available: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/foo/ask-smart-questions.pdf also at lp:~doctormo/doctormo-random/howtoask
[06:16] <doctormo> paultag: Do you not think it would have been better if rules had not had been bent and the USA was just one LoCo team? We'd always be an approved LoCo then.
[07:08] <doctormo> pleia2: P.S. I don't want the lp code path to become common knowledge since past experience shows translators go a bit crazy and start badly handling translations on their own, publishing in random places online and basically doing a whole bunch of work to create confusion. This time I want to get people to email me and work on translations that way.
[09:05] <pleia2> doctormo: great, thanks, and noted
[09:32] <AlanBell> doctormo: if the USA was a country level LoCo then that country level loco would probably install the same kind of state level structures anyway
[09:33] <nigelb> we face that difficulty with india as a country level loco
[09:34] <nigelb> even if one person starts to do something, it will be difficult to revive the country as a whole. the only hope I have is a city level loco
[09:51] <sense> good morning
[10:07] <nigelb> morning sense :)
[10:08] <sense> hey nigelb!
[10:11] <duanedesign> 'lo all
[10:30] <doctormo> nigelb: Best to have a city + surrounding area LoCo, otherwise you'll have an urban populace with Ubuntu and all the rural guys without. Although in india perhaps that's going to happen anyway.
[10:30] <nigelb> doctormo: yup
[10:31] <doctormo> AlanBell: The difference is that the country wide LoCo would be the one contacting shipit for resources, which it would then distribute out to states.
[10:31] <doctormo> nigelb: Then do that, the Indian LoCo can just take care of shipit and emailing sub-teams about items on contacts list.
[10:39] <nigelb> doctormo: nope.  that part is dead.
[10:39] <nigelb> (which is what I'm trying to revive)
[10:39] <doctormo> nigelb: Which part? the country wide part?
[10:40] <nigelb> the country wide
[10:53] <AlanBell> shipit isn't that important
[11:12] <doctormo> AlanBell: Not to a country the size and demographic of India, I wouldn't think so.
[11:13] <doctormo> nigelb: It must be fairly cheap to make CDs there, it would probably be cheaper for shipit to just send you money ;-P
[11:14] <nigelb> doctormo: hahah
[11:14] <nigelb> actually when the cds come to loco contacts we spend more money getting it customs cleared (when I asked the loco contact.  he stopped requesting)
[11:15] <AlanBell> canonical will pay customs charges
[11:15] <doctormo> nigelb: What is the best language for materials to be in for India?
[11:15] <nigelb> AlanBell: not the bribes which they force us to pay :/
[11:15] <nigelb> doctormo: around 22 of them major and a lot of them minor :D
[11:15] <AlanBell> nigelb: ah, that might be different :-(
[11:16] <doctormo> nigelb: huh? Pick _one_ language which is the best to print lots of materials in.
[11:16] <nigelb> doctormo: There isn't one.
[11:16] <nigelb> Depending on where you're going to give it, the language changes.
[11:17] <nigelb> I can't even say English because it depends on the target audience.
[11:19] <doctormo> nigelb: OK lets try this question again... Considering population, distribution ease, effect, current layout of loco and user groups in India. What one language would have the most effect and could be distributed the most widely.
[11:19] <nigelb> doctormo: ok, this is going to take some time to explain.
[11:20] <AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India
[11:21] <nigelb> Almost every state in India has its own language.  If you ask for one language with majority speakers, it would be Hindi.  But if you attempt to try and distribute Hindi materials in south india, its full of fail.  Ditto for Eastern India too.
[11:21] <nigelb> So, if you want any level of success English would be best.  Loco and LUGs can translate that.
[11:21] <nigelb> Anything else, you're going to have to cater for at least 30 languages.
[11:23] <nigelb> AlanBell: thanks for the link :)
[11:24] <AlanBell> wow: India's most prestigious Indian Institute of Technology entrance, most popularly known as IIT-JEE, has changed its format. In 2007, the questions are posed in either Hindi or English, and students can answer in one of these languages: English, Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu and Urdu.
[11:24] <nigelb> :D
[11:25] <doctormo> nigelb: I'm actually well aware of India's language demographic, I wasn't asking if one language could cover all though.
[11:25] <doctormo> After all I have friends from all over India :-)
[11:25] <nigelb> :D
[11:26] <nigelb> what I'm trying to tell you is, besides English, any other attempt would mean localizating to at least all the major languages
[11:26] <doctormo> AlanBell: I only know people who can speak Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Urdu and Tamil though. I'm missing a few states from my friendship collection :-P
[11:27] <nigelb> doctormo: add me for malayalam
[11:27] <doctormo> nigelb: But that isn't what I asked. I assume the answer to what I asked is English or Hindi. But you keep on assuming I'm asking a different question.
[11:27] <nigelb> doctormo: Hindi again has problems.
[11:28] <doctormo> nigelb: If you gave someone who is a native speaker/reader something in Hindi, would they not be able to read it?
[11:28] <nigelb> doctormo: oh, wait.  English was an option
[11:28] <nigelb> doctormo: depends on where he/she's from
[11:28] <nigelb> my colleagues cannot speak/read/write Hindi at all.
[11:28] <doctormo> If she/he is a native speaker on Hindi.
[11:28] <doctormo> of*
[11:29] <nigelb> I can manage a bit of Hindi
[11:29] <nigelb> ah, native Hindi speaker, yes!
[11:29] <doctormo> nigelb: You probably top my Hindi which stops at Gai-say-ho, and unfortunately I only know how to say that, not type it.
[11:30] <nigelb> Kai-se-ho ;)
[11:30] <doctormo> See!
[11:30]  * nigelb can go up to asking directions and ordering food in hindi :D
[11:30] <nigelb> oh, even Kanada too I can speak but not read/write :/
[11:30] <doctormo> nigelb: So how is Danyabad/Shuk-ri-at really typed?
[11:31] <nigelb> doctormo: what you've typed looks okay, though I'd make it Dhanyawadh
[11:32] <doctormo> And the other? or is that something else like Pakistani.
[11:33] <nigelb> nah
[11:33] <doctormo> nigelb: So basically your Hindi is as good as my Thai. Not terribly useful for much I must say.
[11:33] <nigelb> the other is perfect
[11:33] <nigelb> hindi/urdu(spoken in pakistan) and many other indian languages come from the same base language
[11:33] <nigelb> sanskrit
[11:34] <nigelb> its like latin is to english/french/italian
[11:34] <nigelb> lots of common words
[11:37] <doctormo> I doubt it's like Latin is to English
[11:37] <doctormo> That relationship is rather hard to explain
[11:39] <nigelb> thats the only other example I know of.  Its not perfect though.
[11:40] <doctormo> Sanskrit and English are both Indo-European languages, they're more related to each other than English is to Finnish, which is Uralic. Very odd.
[11:41] <doctormo> So Torvalds speaks two different language families :-D but you and I only speak one.
[11:41] <nigelb> Ah.
[11:42] <nigelb> doctormo: Oh, I had some fun yesterday.
[11:42] <nigelb> I saw someone raving about an application which is a frontend to google docs
[11:42] <nigelb> About 10 minutes later, I realized the author was you :D
[11:43] <doctormo> nigelb: OK so English is Germanic in base, it's similar to German. It contains Latin words because of the French invasion in 1066, this lead to the offical language being French for a while, but only the aristocrats used French. Thus complex and subtle words tended to be French/Latin and more basic words tended to be Germanic.
[11:44] <doctormo> Of course English still has a few Celtic words too, the odd random thing from the very distant past.
[11:45] <sense> doctormo: The language most closest to English is Frisian, a language spoken by around 600.000 people in the province I live in. :)
[11:45] <sense> It is dialectising towards Dutch, but it is different.
[11:45] <nigelb> doctormo: Oh! I didn't know the origin of English in so much detail.
[11:45] <sense> Sanskrit did have influence on European languages I think, but didn't Latin have influence on Eastern language as well?
[11:46] <sense> nigelb: Dutch can read Old English more easily than English speakers nowadays.
[11:46] <sense> Especially Frisians can read it much easier.
[11:46] <doctormo> sense: Latin is a romance language, it's possible but I'd have to read up on it.
[11:46] <doctormo> sense: And I knew English and Dutch were close too.
[11:46] <sense> The French influence on English is profound.
[11:47] <nigelb> Woo, going into languages is pretty complicated isn't it :)
[11:47] <sense> It is said that Frisian influence English, and not the other way around.
[11:47] <sense> d
[11:47] <doctormo> sense: I wouldn't put any bets on any one way link
[11:48] <sense> Some Frisians 'migrated' to England.
[11:48] <doctormo> sense: For instance the French would loath to admit that English has heavily influenced modern French.
[11:48] <sense> about 1000 years ago
[11:48]  * AlanBell thinks doctormo should do a Widnesian translation
[11:48] <sense> doctormo: But they're French.
[11:49] <sense> Influence can come back. For example: dope comes from the Dutch word 'doop', which could also be used as an archaic word for 'gravy'. It is now used by some Dutch speakers with the same meaning the English now give it.
[11:49] <doctormo> AlanBell: A' eh lad, I caent uwse se meny speling m'takes.
[11:50] <doctormo> AlanBell: Me and the wife still have to read my mum and sisters emails out loud to understand them *mercy heavens*
[11:50] <sense> It is really weird to see how much influence the Dutch language had on (American) English considering that (relatively) there weren't that much Dutch migrants in the US compared to migrants from other countries.
[11:50] <AlanBell> My dad is from St Helens
[11:51] <sense> Ah, the island everyone only knows because of Napoleon?
[11:51] <doctormo> sense: Not really that much of a surprise, them that gets there first and all that.
[11:51] <AlanBell> nope
[11:51] <doctormo> AlanBell: heh, if only Napoleon had known about the ICI chemical works and the sanky canal.
[11:51] <sense> Translation error from my part then.
[11:52] <AlanBell> sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Helens,_Merseyside
[11:52] <sense> doctormo: Were they really the earliest migrants? I know the Pilgrim Fathers lived in the Netherlands until they got fed up with having to tolerate other people's practises and went to found their own religious state, but they must have stayed pretty English, they didn't stay that long.
[11:52] <doctormo> sense: Alan is talking about St Helens, Cheshire, UK. A rugby town in the north of England famous for not being very interesting and having an ok picture house I guess.
[11:53] <sense> It does have a reasonably wiki page.
[11:53] <doctormo> Oh it's in Mersyside, my mistake. Widnes never could settle in any boundry.
[11:53] <doctormo> Wow I wouldn't have though St Helens was comparable in size to Liverpool.
[11:54] <sense> We'll be spending holiday inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptree this year. AlanBell: What's Essex like?
[11:54] <doctormo> sense: I remember when the guy writing the article for Widnes asked to take my article about Widnes on H2G2 as the basis. heh.
[11:55] <sense> doctormo: What's H2G2?
[11:56] <nigelb> sense: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/
[11:56] <sense> Ah!
[11:56] <AlanBell> the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
[11:56] <nigelb> (British edition :p)
[11:57] <sense> We've seen the new movie at school, but that's probably not enough to full grasp the huge culture that has grown around it.
[11:57] <nigelb> sense: read the book.  movies are never as good as the book.
[11:57] <AlanBell> oh, the movie is rubbish, you need to read the book
[11:58] <sense> It is a series, right?
[11:58] <AlanBell> sense: Essex is nice in places, tiptree looks good
[11:58] <AlanBell> it is a trilogy
[11:58] <AlanBell> in 5 parts
[11:59] <nigelb> heh
[11:59] <AlanBell> or possibly 6
[11:59] <sense> makes sense!
[12:01] <doctormo> AlanBell: Hieratic! It's 4 books and one mistake, or 5 radio series.
[12:01] <AlanBell> Mostly Harmless is "The fifth book in the increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhikers Trilogy"
[12:02] <doctormo> The radio is the best way to do it, it's like an audio book, but with actors and sound effects.
[12:03] <doctormo> AlanBell: Mostly Harmless is mostly Adams getting sick of pestering fans and wrote the damn thing to shut them up, that's why it's so gloomy. He kills off every earth in every dimension of every plurality. Including the entire main cast.
[12:03] <doctormo> The Radio ending saved it though, good ol' babel fish.
[12:03] <nigelb> AlanBell: isn't there a new one?
[12:04] <doctormo> nigelb: Douglas Adams died in 2001.
[12:04] <nigelb> doctormo: yes, this one was written by someone else
[12:05] <doctormo> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/U178086 for those curious, I'm DoctorMO (Keeper of the Computer, Guru, Community Artist)
[12:08] <doctormo> The problem is the damn BBC locked me out of my account and have no way to recover access.
[12:08] <doctormo> The rotten lot.
[12:12] <nigelb> why did they lock you out?
[12:18] <doctormo> nigelb: Forgot the password
[12:19] <nigelb> doctormo: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[12:21] <doctormo> Now even if I remember it, I won't be allowed in.
[12:21] <doctormo> Ultimate security.
[12:22] <nigelb> doctormo: Also trying to say, go big or stay home.
[12:22] <nigelb> if you come here often, you'll remember your password
[12:22] <nigelb> if not, go away, we don't want you :p
[12:24] <doctormo> Nah, they're saying: "We wrote this website in C and thought we were clever dickies, but got bought by the BBC who has the technical nouse of a bit of lint"
[12:25] <nigelb> LOL
[12:25]  * nigelb headdesks
[12:25] <nigelb> I wrote code for hours only to learn the host doesn't support PHP 5 :/
[12:25] <nigelb> especially after I've finished everything
[12:30] <doctormo> nigelb: There are ways around that, although normally the only reason the host doesn't support PHP is that it's a windows box at which point I reject.
[12:32] <nigelb> doctormo: Linux host.  I've read a lot of call by reference which is supported only from php 5 :/
[12:32] <nigelb> s/read/written/
[12:38] <doctormo> Ah, something which isn't a problem for perl or python unless your doing something very interesting.
[12:38] <doctormo> Although I would say that, I've never liked php
[12:54] <nigelb> I like PHP though I'd like to learn python and probably work on django.
[12:54] <nigelb> django looks extremely interesting.
[13:23] <paultag> doctormo, I don't think you understood what I was saying
[13:24] <doctormo> paultag: where?
 paultag: Do you not think it would have been better if rules had not had been bent and the USA was just one LoCo team? We'd always be an approved LoCo then.
[13:24] <paultag> your last ping
[13:58] <sense> Do other large countries get the same exception as the US? Otherwise that would be unfair.
[13:59] <paultag> sense, I have no clue. I don't think so. Russia is considered one.
[14:00] <paultag> sense, I don't know why it there, the US is very inconsistent with naming and guidelines
[14:00] <sense> yeah
[14:00] <paultag> sense, for instance like 20 bajilion locos in Texas
[14:01] <paultag> sense, I think it's one of those things where we screwed up early and it's a huge mess to change right now
[14:02] <sense> The US probably started growing a lot of LoCos before most of the current rules were in place.
[14:02] <paultag> aye
[14:02] <sense> But maybe it would be wise to clean the mess up a bit, especially if now we have countries like Brazil and India (and Russia?) getting more and more active. If the US get exceptions, so they could reason, why not we?
[14:02] <sense> We don't want the mess to spread! ;)
[14:03] <paultag> sense, yeah, I was talking with Lyz about it
[14:03] <paultag> sense, but it's a huge amount of trouble, and we've tried in the past
[14:05] <paultag> sense, we've started to unify control with a ubuntu-us team
[14:07] <sense> good
[14:08] <sense> I know from my own LoCo that structural changes (especially considering leadership, titles and responsibilities) are always slow.
[14:08] <sense> But you're working!
[14:08] <paultag> sense, yup
[14:08] <paultag> sense, I'd hate to have people think we are proto-typical self-centered Americans :)
[14:09] <sense> At least you're not!
[14:10] <paultag> I hope not :)
[14:20] <AlanBell> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/07/24/0241204/Dell-Drops-Ubuntu-PCs-From-Its-Website?art_pos=2
[14:22] <paultag> AlanBell, I saw that, but the dell.com/ubuntu is still up
[14:22] <paultag> AlanBell, and wtf, they are OEM partners with us
[14:23] <AlanBell> yup
[14:23] <paultag> >:(
[14:23] <AlanBell> you saw my conversation with them?
[14:23] <paultag> AlanBell, yesterday? Aye
[14:24] <AlanBell> tis very frustrating
[14:24] <paultag> Aye, it sure is.
[14:24] <paultag> We must all be gluttons for punishment
[14:24] <AlanBell> speaking to the Canonical OEM people, most Dells are certified, all the engineering work is done
[14:25] <AlanBell> just the sales side don't want to sell them
[14:25] <paultag> ... So, we ditch them
[14:25] <paultag> Why spend so much time and energy for something that is overall backwards work
[14:27] <AlanBell> the real frustrating thing is that they will look at their quarterly sales figures and see that they have not sold many Ubuntu laptops
[14:27] <AlanBell> they report those figures to Microsoft
[14:27] <AlanBell> who then take them round every other OEM and say look, Ubuntu doesn't sell very well.
[14:32] <paultag> :/
[14:32] <AlanBell> It isn't really good business practice to keep your products on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard"
[14:33] <paultag> mmhum
[15:02] <duanedesign> lol
[15:09] <sense> Vote with your money, don't buy Dell! :)
[15:10] <duanedesign> i remember reading awhile back Dell users complaining because they could not upgrade their Dell Mini. Poor gma500 support in Linux
[15:11] <AlanBell> the GMA500 paulsbo thing was poor linux support from intel
[15:12] <AlanBell> I have some sympathy for Dell on that one, same for the lpia build
[15:12] <AlanBell> (although I could see that coming)
[15:20]  * duanedesign nods
[19:29] <doctormo> czajkowski: Did you reschedule the ubuntu-us-ma meeting?
[20:56] <pleia2> doctormo: here we go :) http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=3248
[20:57] <pleia2> doctormo: re: meeting, I think she was confused - seems like the meeting time she cited was the loco teams meeting
[21:35] <sense> good night everyone!